A few weeks ago, I provided some insight into the trials and tribulations of a fleet manager. Let us continue on this bizarre and sometimes nightmarish journey…
The first post (here) focused on the automobiles in the fleet. This is like watching 20 minutes in the middle of an unfamiliar movie – you just aren’t privy to the whole picture. There’s more to tell, especially when it comes to pickups and dump trucks. Oh, and I also threw in a few behaviors I was lucky enough to witness. As stated last time, your own experiences may vary.
Dodge Pickups: Has Dodge ever not been a major player in fleet sales? Dodge’s fleet composition gives them a triple-play. Let’s look at each size individually.
The Dodge Dakota is a decent pickup, provided you have a light load and don’t have full-sized (measured either horizontally or vertically) drivers. They hold up well, yet are highly prone to the old tin worm. Most were equipped with the 3.9 liter V6. Purchased primarily to reduce fuel costs, they didn’t pan out as intended when it came to fuel consumption, and weren’t well suited to their intended application.
The Dodge Ram of the late ’90’s to early ’00’s era was a willing pickup aching to burst free of its power train and trimming constraints. These units really needed more than the base 3.9 liter V6 most of them were born with. They were equipped with 4-speed automatics that seemed to require a downshift every 50 feet, even on level ground. After purchase, it wasn’t long before dashboards started to crack and seats started to deteriorate. This really helped to reinforce the Dodge-phobia from which many employees suffered.
On the flip side, I know of several instances when trucks headed out to the job site with about 6,000 lbs. of materials loaded in the bed. There was also a V6 powered Ram that had the burden of pulling a nearly three-ton air compressor over very long distances. In both cases, forward momentum did not build so much as ooze.
For 2011, I purchased six Dodge 5500 diesel trucks. With power windows and CD players as standard equipment, they were big morale boosters; however, unlike similar Dodges of the two previous years they had urea systems that were unfamiliar, and thus the cause of much uncertainty and derision (one person referred to the urea tank as the “piss tank”). Aside from a few turbochargers going kaput early on, the only issue with these trucks has been a susceptibility to snowpack in the air filter housing.
Ford Pickups: No Rangers here. Always Ford F-Series, primarily in F-150 and F-250 flavors. I was in Chevrolet Land, where Fords were always inferior to Bow Ties but still preferable to anything with a ram’s head on the hood. Mechanical and trim issues were nearly nonexistent, although there were consistent complaints about a lack of low-end torque on 4.6 liter equipped F-150’s, especially when pulling trailers. The only real annoyance was the tendency of upper ball joints being worn out by 30,000 to 36,000 miles. If they were replaced under warranty with the non-greasable factory type, you could expect a repeat in another 30,000 miles or so. Installing greaseable ball joints settled the issue.
As one field supervisor once told me: “I hate these Fords. I like Chevys. But the Fords just keep running and there is no drama.”
There were also a sizable number of F-450 crew cabs, and a limited number of ’08 F-550 crew cabs, purchased in the ’99 to ’01 model years. The 7.3 liter diesel in the older units was mostly problem-free and easily good for 200,000 miles, even in hard use. The 6.4 liter diesel in the ’08 models got 8.5 mpg regardless of driving style (for comparison, a dump truck as shown at the top would generally get 5 to 6 mpg). Engine access was horrific, and a warranty engine replacement necessitated (drumroll, please) removal of the cab.
Chevrolet pickups: These were a favorite of both the drivers and my counterparts in other locations. Their only real issues involved transmission sensors on ’06 models with the 6.0 liter gasoline engine. They caused the transmission to heat up tremendously, which caused some very hard upshifting and downshifting.
While it (unfortunately) hasn’t always been the case, GM generally does a good job of producing full-size vehicles requiring very little in the way of upkeep, as exemplified by their gasoline powered pickups over the last 10 to 15 years.
Nevertheless, I do have a caveat involving Chevrolet’s 6.5 liter turbo diesel. The engine was a true engineering marvel and many of them were installed in, of all things, service trucks for mechanics: By the time these units were sold, they’d all had at least once engine replacement. In fact, as a preemptive move one industrious mechanic used bits and pieces of various engines to build a “new’ one. (Eventually, his engine was put into service and would prove to be the best of the lot!)
International Dump Trucks: There were many, many engine failures (which always seemed to occur in threes) on International dump trucks in the 466 and 530 engine series. It was a perplexing problem and International, much to its credit, was very good about providing various forms of assistance. In the typical scenario, a truck with about 80,000 to 120,000 miles would be running and driving fine until suddenly, and without warning, it would start to knock. The operator would shut off the engine and call the mechanic. The mechanic would find an empty radiator and an oil pan full of coolant. A tear-down of the engine would reveal that an O-ring on one of the cylinder liners had failed. The actual cause never was never conclusively determined, although many had their suspicions. Despite their engine issues, these trucks hold up quite well given the kind of torture they receive.
Other routine issues during the service lives of Internationals involve front cover gasket leaks and worn walking beams on tandems. On the other hand, the Allison transmissions on automatic-transmission equipped units proved to be virtually flawless.
Trailers: Trailers? you ask. Yes, trailers were an issue. If you do not properly store your glad-hands, insects like to nest inside the hoses. In turn, if your trailer sits for an extended period and you do not do a proper pre-trip check, you can easily drag a trailer with locked wheels. Then all sorts of bad things can happened. Tires getting flat spots, tires blowing out, and even tires catching fire. I wish I didn’t know all this, but I had occasions to learn all about it.
This story would not be complete without a few personal interactions and user gripes. I was naive and thought I would be having scads of fun buying vehicles while having a sizable budget. Wrong! While buying was fun, dealing with people was always stimulating. Consider:
People who would be finicky about the lack of quality of a vehicle yet it would be superior to anything they owned. Other people thinking they needed a four wheel drive as they might be on a gravel road (one person who wanted one was getting a dually Dodge – I told him, yes, it is four wheel drive as you have four wheels on the drive axle). A vocal few who were never satisfied with the tires on their unit because they “needed” something with more aggressive tread. Vehicles used as a mobile trash can (banana peels fused to the carpet, milk containers seeping their contents all over the interior, week old milkshake containers). The gentleman who was such a slob that when his car was reassigned after his retirement, two people had to spend 3 days de-funking it for the next person. The office person making a rare trip out and insisting upon a new car from the pool (nixed by my filling the pool with old, high mileage units). Or the perennial favorite when fire extinguishers discharged in the trunks of cars or cabs of pickups.
Being a fleet manager was fun but trying. How trying? This picture is of me at age 37. I had become very grumpy. All I wanted to do was drink beer and eat bacon.
What kind of failures took out the Chevy 6.5 TDs and what kind of mileage could you expect from one before failure? We’ve had two 6.2L (non-turbo) diesels in our family and they were reliable but sluggish. Both vehicles were retired due to everything else failing except for the drivetrain. All I know about the 6.5 was that it had some issues with the injection pump that necessitated multiple recalls to fix.
What kind of failures DIDN’T the 6.5 have? How about cracked blocks and heads? Bad injector pumps? Turbo failures?
We had several and all were total disasters.
I had several 6.5 turbos in the fleet. A need arose for 4×4 crew cabs and the only ones I could find quickly for a reasonable price were GMCs. All but one of them lived up to thier unsavory reputation. The last one ran flawlessly for 300,000 km. That didn’t make up for the one that failed spectacularly on the Port Mann bridge one hot Friday afternoon. Oiled down both lanes, smoke everywhere, backed up traffic, irate motorists and all.
The nice lady in the traffic helicopter even mentioned our company name over the air as being the cause of the traffic jam. A memorable afternoon.
My father owned a 6.5 equipted 3/4 ton standard cab long bed Chevy for a few years in the “00s”. He picked up the truck cheaply because it was a wreck picked up by his body shop owning cousin who then offered it to my father (including the repairs in the price) for a resonable sum. I know the truck was hit in the front and needed the radiator replaced among some other mechanical parts.
The truck only had 65,000 miles on it when my father aquired it and he put another 20,000 or so miles on it in a few years. He only sold it after deciding he couldn’t justify having the truck around because he wasn’t working it hard enough. I think he sold it for about what he paid for it. (Honestly though he’s the only person I knew with that engine that didn’t have trouble with it.)
He replaced the diesel Chevy with a well used 1/2 ton Suburban 4×4 with a 350.
Wow, I didn’t know they were THAT bad. Glad I bought my Dodge instead when I was shopping to replace my van in 2000.
The same day I test-drove the 94 RAM2500/Cummins that I ultimately bought, I also drove a 96 Chevy 2500 pickup with the 6.5 TD. Both had about 120000mi on them and both were about the same price. The Chevy had the paperwork showing that the injection pump recalls had been done.
I find this an interesting series. I too am a civil engineer for a organization that has a large and varied fleet (state DOT). Fortunately, I don’t have to maintain the fleet, just figure out what to do when one of my office’s 15 vehicles doesn’t work – which is often. I’m on the construction side of things so I’ve been dealing with Ford F150’s & Rangers(lot’s of these), Chevy Suburbans and S-10’s (we never got a Colorado), and a few Jeep Cherokee’s & Liberties over the last 16 years.
My state doesn’t buy too many Chrysler trucks – they must not ever be the winning bidder. From my perspective, the full size Chevy’s are preferred by most as they are more comfortable, but the Ford’s are less troublesome. The average Chevy truck feels worn by 30K, is a ****box (trim problems & lots of funny noises/vibrations) by 60K, and constantly needs repair for the next 150K – but they will keep going. The newer ones are better though. The Fords hold up a little better, but are not liked as much, especially the 4cyl Ranger which is cramped and slow. The Cherokee’s were decent vehicles and liked, but the Liberties are hated and have not held up as well.
Now that the Ranger is gone, who know what we will be getting. State budgets being what they are, we’re not getting too many new vehicles so who knows.
Like any fleet vehicle, they are not treated as well as a personal vehicle and the maintenance shop’s opinion of what is a properly functioning vehicle is pretty liberal. Despite this, they do their job for 10 or 15 years and 200K plus miles so they are basically pretty good vehicles.
We had a truck that a seasonal vomited in, one that someone had spilled pesticide in, one where the padding had collapsed and couldn’t be driven without a thrift-store throw pillow for lumbar support. It’s a good thing I was never fleet liaison. Being in charge of vehicle assignments is one of those petty tyrannies that would bring joy to a civil servant’s black little heart. “Cutting your fingernails in your cube again? Six months in the vomitmobile.” Our current fleet liaison is too nice for such nonsense so I grief him by threatening to leave a half-eaten Whopper in one of the pool vehicles over a long summer weekend.
It’s always interesting to hear the experiences of other fleet managers. I agree completely on your assesment of the various Ford and GM pickups. I have had very poor experiences with Dodge trucks and Chrysler’s “ain’t no such thing” warranty policies. I have had well over 100 International trucks powered by various versions of the DT 466 and never had one blow up, even with 500,000 km of brutal use. Some of the very early ones had camshaft, oil cooler and injection pump issues but I’ve never seen one do what you describe. I’d be interested in knowing what the cause was.
I had to laugh when I saw your comments about people’s expectations when vehicles were assigned. Gotta have a 4×4, gotta have Blizzacks in case it snows etc. etc. I wasn’t known as a sympathetic ear for this kind of stuff but it still happened.
One thing I used to do for chronic complainers or vehicle abusers was to make sure they got the very worst example of whatever type of unit they operated. I called it the “penalty box” and the offender was stuck with it until someone else p1ssed me off even worse. Same treatment for anyone who blew up/piled up anything by doing something stupid. On the other hand, people who take good care of thier unit always got the new stuff. There were some people who kept equipment spotless, greased etc and treated it with respect. Everyone knew what to expect from me on this so over time most of the worst pigs got the message. In a union environment you only have so much leverage.
The other thing that always amazed me was the way a fleet of say 20 identical units in similair usage aged over a period of years. There was always one that even the most abusive crew couldn’t seem to kill and it’s identical twin that seemed to have a reserved spot in the shop no matter how gently it was treated.
I used to attend the Fleet management seminars at the University of Washington in Seattle. You’d hear some good stories once the beer started to flow!
The vast majority of the International’s this occurred to were ’02 models…it was never determined if it was an owner issue, such as long life coolant, or a manufacturer issue of less than robust material for the o-rings. Idle limiters were all set at 10 minutes, so excess idling wasn’t an issue.
I had a ’99 Dodge Ram I gave to someone who very effectively destroyed a 3 year old Chevrolet pickup. Talk about one person chuckling and another one fuming. This Dodge also had all of 84 miles put on it in 12 months by another party who refused to drive it.
That’s an odd one alright. Had lots of ’01s with no problems. I’d tend to suspect a bad batch of O-rings. Sometimes the manufacturer will tell you what happened, sometimes they won’t. International is generally very good to deal with though.
I had a very beat up base model ’93 Ford F-350 without air and a busted radio for those special folks who needed a little attitude adjustment.
With a 6 cylinder and a 3 speed C-6 auto it defied even the most enraged attempt to kill it. I only had one repeat customer.
I managed to kill my own truck once. The 1976 3/4 ton Chevy, which was my very first new vehicle purchase, I took out the 292 six at 4 months! Apparently I didn’t know how to break in the engine properly – in those days there was a break-in procedure of sorts. In any event, something down deep started knocking. I took it back to Chevy and got a new long block, as they were beside themselves as to how that happened.
I learned my lesson and the truck was happy after that until I sold it two years to the day I bought it. At 13.5 mpg no matter how easy I drove that beast, I wasn’t happy…
I seriously doubt it had anything to do with break-in. The 292 was a rugged brute, and I suspect you just got a lemon; a Monday motor?
Break-in helped the rings to seat properly, and eased the wear patterns on other components, but way too many engines never had their break-in recommendations observed.
that last line is my best laugh of the week so far
Although I was never a fleet manager, I did have some experience with tire selection on a military vehicle fleet. The tires the vehicles came with were radials but we were often told that the sidewalls were prone to punctures from rocks and thorns when the vehicles were driven off road in challenging terrain. The oft mentioned solution was to replace the tires with ones that had a more aggressive looking lug molded into the base of the sidewall where the tire meets the road. I repeatedly pointed out that the sidewall rating of the more “aggressive” tire was the same as that of the original tire and that it would not offer any additional protection. No one listened. They all wanted the newer tire because it looked better and therefore had to perform better. We never did buy the new tire.
The Allisons (I saw the MD3060 and 3560) are bullet proof. Literally. We just changed the oil every 2500 hrs, cero dramas. The only thing is that you need to keep the tail shaft bearings and its rubber mount in good shape, otherwise you screw the transmission. It is also a beautiful piece of engineering.
The walking beam bushes getting worn is normal stuff with tandem axles. You just burn the old ones and with a BIG press, press the new ones in.
Ford F-series trucks (from the 92-96 vintage) are cheap and easy to fix. The manual M5OD would last 300K+ kms before chewing the forks, the ZF would do 400K before getting locked. The E4OD NEEDS an oil cooler to withstand severe service, I don’t like that transmission. We had a couple of F-350 with the 7.3 powerstroke, and they usually required transfer pump, ICP and and pressure valve. Other than that, no issues.
Good times those.
Well, working in sales for NZ’s second-largest drinks company, most of our fleet since 2002 has been mid-size Mazda 6 wagons, with Holden Captivas and Ford Territorys for managers. But in my first 4yrs there, I was at the bottom of the food chain, so scored a year 2000 Mazda E2000 van, one of 6 the company owned. If you google it you’ll think that was horrific enough (from a safety point of view; it was actually comfy and zippy), but my employers also painted the 6 E2000s purple…and then added vinyl wrap of gigantic fruit along and up the sides… (one of our key drink brands is NZ’s #1 juice brand).
What reminded me of it (actually, I had two successive E2000s, then a Mitsi L400, then rose up the food chain and got Mazda 6s), was the note in the article about the vocal few who are never satisfied with their tires. I was one of the vocal few for our fleet manager! But with reason, as the E2000 came as standard with 165R13 van tires, which lasted well but were lethal in any combination of rain and corners. It actually couldn’t always do the recommended corner speeds posted on some bends without slithering sideways… So I complained loud and long from a safety perspective, and finally got permission to have 185/75 tires fitted. What a difference they made to the ride&handling, and especially the safety. So I guess sometimes the crazies the fleet managers put up with may have a point lol!