Commenting brings out the best in people as well as the worst. They can be the building blocks of a genuine community, or the bombs that destroy it. A deterioration in the quality and tone of comments can quickly metastasize, and soon the negatives chase away the positives. I’ve seen it happen over and over, but I will not let it happen here at CC.
The comments here are a key part of why we do this, because we’re all eager to learn from each other, and share our collective experiences. I’ve learned more from the comments over the years than from any other source. It’s what makes this effort worthwhile, but it only takes one or a few bad comments to ruin things. CC has an aggressive comment moderation policy; here’s why and how it works.
By far and away the biggest problem comment is one that disparages the owners/drivers of certain cars, or any car other then the commenter’s. These are typically gross generalizations, and most often/typically involve cars like the Prius, Camry, Corolla, Hondas, etc., or certian types or classes of cars, but not not necessarily limited to them. Reading between the words, the real message is all too obvious, and often has a political/social/cultural thrust. That’s just off limits here, and will not be tolerated.
I realize all too well that we live in highly polarized social/political times, but we’re either going to transcend that here, or I’m going to pull the plug. I simply refuse to indulge that kind of thinking and attitude. There is nothing more demoralizing to me (never mind embarrassing, for the person making them) than to have to read comments that denigrate the owners of certain cars, based on gross stereotypes and personal biases, and making sweeping judgements on their life values and social status. Their own insecurities are all too obviously on display by doing so, and the effect is inevitably the exact opposite of what they’re trying to achieve. No, you’re not going to win my respect for your choice of car by telling me (or anyone else) that my life is pathetic and I’m a low achiever because of the brand of car I drive. Or some other equally vapid negative generalization.
The whole purpose of CC is to celebrate ALL the old cars still in existence, and appreciate the owners that keep them going, regardless of whether that’s a rusty old pile or a pristine cream puff. And regardless of what brand, or country of origin. If you just can’t find a way to do that, please refrain from commenting. It’s quite possible to extol your own choice of car without putting down others.
And if you just can’t exercise the appropriate self control, I will have to do it for you. I will remove or edit any and all comments that are not in the spirit of CC. So please think before you hit the “Post Comment” button. And please keep in mind: the First Amendment does not apply here. It does on the sidewalk, or you’re free to start your own site. And I will readily admit that I can’t be a perfectly impartial judge either; I can only use my judgement, for better or for worse. That’s the unfortunate reality of having to police comments, my least favorite way to spend time here. And if a person is a repeat offender, they can expect to see more aggressive moderation.
It’s not just avoiding negativity in the comments either. Are you really adding something of value to the comment thread? As Plato said: wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. Or in the words of my father, at the dinner table: Must you externalize every fleeting thought?
Now the last thing I want to do is discourage commenting in general, as our Contributors really appreciate response to the articles they’ve invested a lot of time and energy to post here. If nothing else, a “thanks” goes a long way when there’s no other compensation. And many of you have so much to add to our posts.
I know some of you are thinking “but when Niedermeyer writes a Deadly Sin or other negative article on my favorite car, he’s doing the same thing, trying to make me (or others) feel bad for owning or liking that particular car“. Well, no; there’s an important distinction. We’re not a fanboi site; we’re here to discuss cars in the light of history, and yes, we don’t pull our punches, sometimes.
But that’s all about the decisions that were made in designing and building the car back in the day, and has absolutely no judgement on the actual car itself today, or its owners. And if I write about how I felt about a car when I was seventeen, that’s to be taken with the proper perspective. I celebrate every time I see a Deadly Sin still on the street! And my hat’s off to the owners of them.
Cars are like babies or puppy dogs; they’re completely innocent, flaws and all. They didn’t chose to be like they are, and they all deserve our love. They’re the products of their creators, and that’s who we sometimes poke at. So please discriminate between the two; there’s a huge difference. We love all old cars, Deadly Sins or not. And we’re here to celebrate their existence. But we’re not here to judge their owners, or the owners of any cars, old or new.
I really enjoy CC, its tone, and the healthy level of debate it encourages. That said, I did not read the same uncivil tone in Anthony’s responses to his Town Car article as others did, simply the personality of someone who seems to know his own preferences well.
I do hope that we have not discouraged similar articles from those who put a great deal of emotion into their automotive choices. The desire for individuality or to conform to or differentiate ourselves from a group of people, play a great and important part in how we buy and perceive cars, and understanding how these forces affect the market benefits a number of CC articles and enriches their historical context.
Paul’s house, Paul’s rules. They seem fair to me.
This was up today on MITs Technology Review website (another site I greatly enjoy that does not have much trouble with trolls).
This goes into a good deal of depth about the kinds of problems CC has avoided.
http://www.technologyreview.com/photoessay/533426/the-troll-hunters/?utm_campaign=newsletters&utm_source=newsletter-daily-all&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20141218
Thanks again Paul for this oasis.
Spot on, Paul. Seems everything I was going to say has been said and said well by you and others.
I spend more time on this site than any other, but don’t have the time I used to, hence fewer comments from me lately.
Well done, Curbside Classic, well done.
Best car site on the web. Informative and entertaining articles. Thoughtful and polite commentators. Extremely well run and moderated. Well done Mr Neidermeyer.
+100! By the time I started driving, my dad was driving Mopars, so that is the brand closest to my heart. However, I STILL remember the 1955 Ford Town Sedan that he bought right off of the showroom floor, and the trauma induced in a 6 year old to watch a truck slam into the side of it! I personally have (and still) own Chevrolets/Fords/Hondas, and of course various Mopars. At this stage in life, I appreciate ALL old car survivors, irrespective of brand. These automotive creations whether “outrageous, ridiculous, superb, or divine” help me to remember the experiences of living, whether good, bad, or indifferent. The personal experiences, comments, and opinions, and the WEALTH of arcane knowledge are what endear me to this site!! 🙂
This is one of the rare places where comments are respectable. Well done.
For every single car featured, somewhere out there is an owner of that car. I always try to keep that in mind as I read or comment on anything here. Having read a negative article and remarks about a car I own isn’t exactly fun reading, but I understand that not everybody shares my enthusiasm or taste and try not to take it personally. It’s a bit hard sometimes, as that negativity about your car gets transferred on to you as an owner, but that may be my own insecurity. Usually you can add a positive remark to the discussion and let the rest go….Curbside Classic is a great place to come and I look forward to the wide range of articles and discussion. Thank you!
I enjoy this site so much that I’m in and out of here all day (when the boss ain’t lookin’).
I would be terribly disappointed if CC came to an end. Thank you, Paul, for all that you do.
Well, I’m a little late here. May I share some constructive criticism? This seems like the place for it.
Paul, your response to certain comments has been, at times, disproportionate. A sentence or two on the TC article would have made your point about not disparaging owners when we complain about cars. Or, you could have deleted the comment (which no one else found objectionable) and sent the commenter a private note. Instead you let loose with thousands of words, which predictably turned into a heated exchange where none had been…why?
I wondered the same thing a while back, when a few people made comments about old Camrys being underpowered, and you kinda went off on them. I think you told someone he was making an ass of himself with an on-topic, non-personal comment no one but you replied to. If you hadn’t responded at all, would anyone else have been offended, or even noticed? Is your goal as moderator to moderate or intensify?
These are questions I absolutely have to direct at myself and other regulars as well. As noted, it’s your site, your rules, etc. Your patience with this motley crew is vast, but not boundless. Sometimes it’s good to be reminded. Thank you again for all you do here.
All true. And I take responsibility for my faults and biases.
I did allow myself to get triggered by someone probably 20 years younger than me repeatedly telling me that because I drive a Honda (which I do), my life was pathetic and that I was obviously a person with low life ambitions compared to his and others that drive exalted Lincolns.
I have my limits, and he stepped over them. That’s the first time anyone has ever said anything so blatantly stupid and personally insulting here.
I didn’t invite this person to CC; someone else did. It’s like a dinner guest to your house that shows up with another uninvited guest. You might expect them to show a bit of restraint and civility under the circumstances. Not so.
It’s always been somewhat of a challenge for me to see posts on my site by writers who obviously don’t share any of my values, interests and perspective. I sometimes wonder if I’ve opened it up too much. I admit that seeing things on my site that are so utterly opposite of what I would chose to read, never mind write, is sometimes very challenging for me.
And sometimes I don’t handle that well. Do I exercise more editorial control? Or let it be a free-for all, which it largely has been.
I admit that my patience with certain commenters has been increasingly frayed. Some of them are like Pavlovian dogs: you say a certain thing, or write about a certain car, and they’re all over it, with the same comments, over and over. And some of them are more interested in tussling with me than with actually commenting on the actual post.
It’s worn me down, and I’m quite fatigued.If I could figure out a way to take a month or 6 or a year off, I would. But I haven’t found a way.
But FWIW, it appears some of the worst thorns in my side have gotten the message. This moderation is nothing new; I’ve been doing it for some time, and some have gotten the hint: I really don’t welcome your presence here. Others not quite.
I’ve been planning to do a post about this issue for months, and the recent issue with this unpleasant uninvited guest pushed me over the edge, in more way than one.
I have some regrets, but I also have to recognize that my patience is limited. I do have a rep for “not suffering fools well”, and when I get burned out, it really shows. Oh well; that’s how I am; take it or leave it.
Thanks. You are in a truly unusual editorial position here and I appreciate your dedication. Any criticism I make is meant to be helpful, not antagonistic, and I hope that comes through.
I’m happy to take it, won’t leave it, if that’s ok with you. 🙂
Paul, I think of CC like a family of car lovers…we’ll have our disagreements, but at the end of the day, shake hands and go grab dinner, appreciating the CCs we see along the way.
The “best and brightest” here are a completely different animal than TTAC. Always has been.
Please allow me to state that IMHO, some cars objectively invite denigration…(not commenters, cars)…the Grand Am from July being one of them.
I think you framed it perfectly…”from the company that brought you the ’63 GP and ’66 GTO”. Context is vital and you provided it, otherwise it would be simply an ad hominem attack with the “trailer trash” part thrown in as hurtful punctuation.
Should mention at this point that my son’s gf…our future daughter-in-law…recently purchased a black Grand Am similar to the white one in your comment. LOVES it. So does my son…who owns a ’93 Accord SE which is quite engaging to drive. Yet he’s driven the Grand Am and raves about it. Neither one are remotely what anyone could call “trailer trash”…yet it’s hard for me to refute the charges against the Grand Am. And I’m not offended in the least for you to have referred to it as such…with a singular caveat: What if it had been built to the standard GM puts into their cars TODAY? I think we’d be talking about it far more positively.
My other son bought a toaster. No, I don’t call his 2011 Honda Accord that to his face. And I’ve never had occasion to ride in or drive that car. But he loves it too and it’s been a good car for him so far. Everyone says the newer Accords are bland compared with 20 years ago…someday I’ll have a chance to find out and either confirm it’s a toaster or profoundly apologize.
I miss the Deadly Sin series, and wanted to see more of the GM series you started…the first one was about tiny tires in the 60s. Respectful, sometimes impassioned commentary adds spice and perspective so long as it doesn’t fall into ad hominem territory. We can agree to disagree and appreciate everyone’s opinion.
I’d truly hope CC doesn’t become a place where no criticism is permitted. I’ve learned much here, most importantly that there are vehicles I’d never even consider owning that others…most significantly younger commenters…remember far differently and more affectionately.
I’ve learned that Every Car Has A Story…and I’m a more well-rounded car guy for it.
If I’ve ever crossed the line I’m truly sorry. I’ve gotten vociferous over GM’s 1970s-80s-90s offerings BECAUSE OF my lifelong Chevrolet affection. Not because I dislike the Mark of Excellence.
I’d truly hope CC doesn’t become a place where no criticism is permitted.
It’s not, as long as I am here. 🙂
There’s a big difference between genuine criticism and ragging on other folks.
Mr. N: I don’t think I’ve ever read anything on this site that comes close to the low level of discourse I have seen on others. It’s why I come here. Thanks for running a site featuring cars that never get any attention, press or analysis.
I don’t bother with most of my past favorites sites as there’s always a snarky know it all, posters who seek to impress with the nastiness of their comments or petty juvenile x brand is better than y brand nyahhhh ! nonsense. This is found on even real estate sites and let’s not even mention AOL’s un-moderated [or so it appears] comment sections where people thrive on character assassination. It’s not apparent [to me] on this site.
Thanks for this site. I’ve been following you and young Mr N since TTAC and appreciate the respect you show even the most modest vehicles.
I enjoy posting here because I do believe the vast majority of CC posters are fair minded and old enough to express the proper perspective when discussing cars that might have had emotional meaning to them at some point in their lives. Generally, most commenters are aware of their own personal prejudices and will own up to them. I do get turned off by people who over-generalize that certain cars are ugly or horrible or not worth even discussing. No one needs pedantry when trying to enjoy all cars in all their individual glory.
In my experience the tone of the comments on CC have been generally been fairly civilized relatively speaking. I think we can disagree without being disagreeable.
Keep up the good work, Paul.
And everyone else, thank you for keeping a constructive environment for all.
I just had a small insight – it’s easier on a site like this where we mostly discuss vehicles that were built quite some time ago to keep politics out of the discussion. The maxim “You may not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you” makes it very, very difficult to keep politics out of any discussion of things that are happening now. One example is the way that the United States continuing to have different standards and requirements for new cars than the rest of the world limits the choices in new cars that are available to US buyers. It may not be political in a partisan way, but it is political.
We’re quite a crew here, from youngsters to older guys like me, whose first car was a 1947 Chevrolet in 1956. The variety of experiences and of viewpoints is quite amazing but also understandable. The main thing we all have in common is a thorough appreciation for this site and for Paul’s dedication to it, even more than our interest in curbside classics themselves.
Well put. I was also thinking along the same lines, that the discussion usually tends to get more heated, opinionated and political the newer the vehicle being discussed is.
I usually stay away from articles on newer vehicles here, but I’d say the recent article on the new RAM1500 EcoDiesel was a good example. I waded into that one because I’m a diesel fan, have looked at this truck closely, and would like to own one eventually if it doesn’t develop a bad reputation.
Even in that thread, the comments didn’t realyl get out of hand.
Maybe if we prefixed some of our comments with an “IMHO” (such as “_____’s suck IMHO”or “IMHO i can’t understand why anyone would drive a ____”) that might make things a little smoother. It’s very hard to show, say, sarcasm, in a post on a forum, so many can (and will) take things the wrong way. Myself included 🙂 . Anywhoo I can be a bit argumentative (ask my uberlib sister 😀 ) here myself, and I certainly hope no one takes it personally. I promise I won’t 🙂 .
A friend once told me I’m not allowed to use the acronym “IMHO” because I am never humble. 😀
Hah!!! The same could be said of me 😀 !
I am an infrequent commenter who reads this site everyday,and am always amazed by what I did not know. Yes, you will run in to the occasional cranky poster, but it does not really bother me. Of course, I’m not the one getting hammered either. Unfortunately, civility in public discourse really is becoming a lost art.
A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!
The format and comments section is what got me hooked on CC. The first time I was on here I could tell this was a good place with good people. This is a relaxing place to go when I need to get away from the problems of daily life.
This will be my last visit to CC. I’m simply fed up with the respectful, polite, troll-free lambastings going on. This is the internet, for ****’s sake, not a public *****ng library! If I wanted civil discourse, I’d go to Youtube.
Also ****, *****, ***, *,. *********, and ********uckers!
I thought I knew all the cuss words, but you’ve stumped me – what the heck does the single ‘*’ stand for? Enquiring minds want to know! 😉
Not sure if serious…
I’m a longtime veteran of bullshitting about cars on the internet, and as far as I’m concerned CC is the greatest forum devoted to this pastime that has ever existed. There are a lot of other sites that do great articles, but it’s the comments and people making them here that keep me coming back to CC several times a day, every single day. This atmosphere is so exceptionally pleasant that the few heated arguments or ugly comments just seem like speed bumps quickly passed over.
I’m also guilty of ripping on people and losing my patience from time to time, so I apologize to anyone I’ve been an asshole to. That’s usually not the intention, and it never seems so bad while I’m typing… but I’ve occasionally gone back a day or two later and been embarrassed by things I wrote. I have a tough time biting my tongue when it comes to certain attitudes, but I’ll try harder.
very, very well said, Paul !