Commenting brings out the best in people as well as the worst. They can be the building blocks of a genuine community, or the bombs that destroy it. A deterioration in the quality and tone of comments can quickly metastasize, and soon the negatives chase away the positives. I’ve seen it happen over and over, but I will not let it happen here at CC.
The comments here are a key part of why we do this, because we’re all eager to learn from each other, and share our collective experiences. I’ve learned more from the comments over the years than from any other source. It’s what makes this effort worthwhile, but it only takes one or a few bad comments to ruin things. CC has an aggressive comment moderation policy; here’s why and how it works.
By far and away the biggest problem comment is one that disparages the owners/drivers of certain cars, or any car other then the commenter’s. These are typically gross generalizations, and most often/typically involve cars like the Prius, Camry, Corolla, Hondas, etc., or certian types or classes of cars, but not not necessarily limited to them. Reading between the words, the real message is all too obvious, and often has a political/social/cultural thrust. That’s just off limits here, and will not be tolerated.
I realize all too well that we live in highly polarized social/political times, but we’re either going to transcend that here, or I’m going to pull the plug. I simply refuse to indulge that kind of thinking and attitude. There is nothing more demoralizing to me (never mind embarrassing, for the person making them) than to have to read comments that denigrate the owners of certain cars, based on gross stereotypes and personal biases, and making sweeping judgements on their life values and social status. Their own insecurities are all too obviously on display by doing so, and the effect is inevitably the exact opposite of what they’re trying to achieve. No, you’re not going to win my respect for your choice of car by telling me (or anyone else) that my life is pathetic and I’m a low achiever because of the brand of car I drive. Or some other equally vapid negative generalization.
The whole purpose of CC is to celebrate ALL the old cars still in existence, and appreciate the owners that keep them going, regardless of whether that’s a rusty old pile or a pristine cream puff. And regardless of what brand, or country of origin. If you just can’t find a way to do that, please refrain from commenting. It’s quite possible to extol your own choice of car without putting down others.
And if you just can’t exercise the appropriate self control, I will have to do it for you. I will remove or edit any and all comments that are not in the spirit of CC. So please think before you hit the “Post Comment” button. And please keep in mind: the First Amendment does not apply here. It does on the sidewalk, or you’re free to start your own site. And I will readily admit that I can’t be a perfectly impartial judge either; I can only use my judgement, for better or for worse. That’s the unfortunate reality of having to police comments, my least favorite way to spend time here. And if a person is a repeat offender, they can expect to see more aggressive moderation.
It’s not just avoiding negativity in the comments either. Are you really adding something of value to the comment thread? As Plato said: wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. Or in the words of my father, at the dinner table: Must you externalize every fleeting thought?
Now the last thing I want to do is discourage commenting in general, as our Contributors really appreciate response to the articles they’ve invested a lot of time and energy to post here. If nothing else, a “thanks” goes a long way when there’s no other compensation. And many of you have so much to add to our posts.
I know some of you are thinking “but when Niedermeyer writes a Deadly Sin or other negative article on my favorite car, he’s doing the same thing, trying to make me (or others) feel bad for owning or liking that particular car“. Well, no; there’s an important distinction. We’re not a fanboi site; we’re here to discuss cars in the light of history, and yes, we don’t pull our punches, sometimes.
But that’s all about the decisions that were made in designing and building the car back in the day, and has absolutely no judgement on the actual car itself today, or its owners. And if I write about how I felt about a car when I was seventeen, that’s to be taken with the proper perspective. I celebrate every time I see a Deadly Sin still on the street! And my hat’s off to the owners of them.
Cars are like babies or puppy dogs; they’re completely innocent, flaws and all. They didn’t chose to be like they are, and they all deserve our love. They’re the products of their creators, and that’s who we sometimes poke at. So please discriminate between the two; there’s a huge difference. We love all old cars, Deadly Sins or not. And we’re here to celebrate their existence. But we’re not here to judge their owners, or the owners of any cars, old or new.
The whole reason to be here is to have fun, period. I am at the stage of my life where I know what I like and I have reasons for those likes. I also realise and understand that others have different likes and their reasons for those, too.
I see cars as the embodiment of cultural/industrial design, and cars very much reflect the eras from where they originate. Having worked in automobile service for many years, there are certain trends one can observe, and I am not going to gloss over them for some kind of ideological loyalty.
But at the end of the day, it really doesn’t matter of a Powerglide was better/worse than a Torqueflight. We can talk about it, but really, it should all be in good fun.
I’m glad, though, that we’re all adults here mentally as well as physically, and we can (for the most part) agree to disagree without thinking any less of someone personally.
Technically, I’m not an adult. (15).
There are people I know who are three times your age and don’t have one-third your maturity. You are close enough! 🙂
I will happily second that! And Jason, I happen to be 3x his age, hopefully you were not thinking of me. 🙂
No, not at all. Besides, you look to be younger than me. 🙂
In the end, it’s Paul’s website. He pays the bills, and he does a good job ensuring civility around here. Furthermore, how many places give Average Joes and Josephines an authorial opportunity with very little heavy handed editorial oversight? I can’t think of another. If he doesn’t like the direction in which something’s headed, he has every right to step in. He doesn’t do it often.
This is really a unique forum for like-minded people to talk about cars without our differences clouding that purpose. In my opinion, that’s exactly as it should be.
Ditto.
+2
ditto X2
I have seen others comment and have contributed comments as well trying to maintain civility here. Agree or Disagree, its up to each of us to decide and are free to add our thoughts to the discussion as long as they are not personal attacks, simple as that.
Paul is the judge and he decides what is and what isn’t acceptable.
+1 more.
We do this because we enjoy doing it, because it is rewarding, and a “thanks ” is always great, as is a contribution to the debate.
We may not all agree about the Morris Marina or even which Thunderbird we want, but reading others’ choices and memories is always interesting. You don’t have to agree, indeed it would be duller if we all did, but good grace and manners cost nothing but are worth every penny (or cent).
I agree with the above. The site celebrates four wheel vehicles and more from the past. It is a wonderful forum for many of us from differnent parts of they world to be informed and entertained.
I’m very glad to be a part of Curbside Classic and hope to contribute something soon too.
We all have those days when we look at the world through bile-colored glasses. Those are the days when we tend to snap at the wife and kids, slam the car door harder than we should and yes, comment on CC. I have had those days, and regret my comments later. I have on occasion (perhaps not often enough) apologized later for my comment. Everyone here is a real person, subject to the normal range of human emotion, including hurt feelings.
I agree with Canucklehead, that this should be a place of good cheer and goodwill. Like PN, I have learned a lot in these comment sessions. I have come to appreciate cars that I formerly thought little of, and have come to better understand others’ less positive views of cars that I esteem highly. I think that each of us should be entitled to an occasional bad day. But none of us is entitled to a long string of them, at least not here.
That you have to say this at all is an unfortunate commentary on the world we live in. But I’m thankful that you do say it. CC is the only one of my few favorite websites that never, ever raises my blood pressure. I enjoy cars, but I also enjoy seeing (and learning from) the different commenters in a calm, fun manner. Thank you!
This is actually one of the few websites whose comment section I can stand to read for more than a few minutes. Thank you for your active (and generally fairly moderate) moderation.
I think the Deadly Sins series has often been misunderstood. The general idea, as I understand it, is not so much that these are *bad cars* (though some turned out to be less than spectacular) but that they represent corporate blunders or blind alleys. Consider the original Toronado–one of my favorite cars of the ’60s, but was it a wise idea from a GM strategic standpoint? That’s why it’s a Deadly Sin.
I totally agree. That is why I have kept coming back to this site (and made it part of my breakfast routine even). The comments are respectful and clean on all levels for the most part — and when things may have gotten tricky, in my opinion, they were quickly acknowledged and dealt with professionally. Thanks Paul. This car enthusiast appreciates it deeply.
My family owned at least one Deadly Sin (Volare) and its offshoot (2 Canadian Caravelles) and while there was this almost odd neurotic fondness for our various F and M cars (I still don’t get why…maybe the ongoing focus on the vehicles when they were in the shop and the cars always *just* beating the odds of the good “doctor” calling it…I don’t know), after reading the articles and comments, I still felt okay with esteem intact.
Thanks again!
“This is actually one of the few websites whose comment section I can stand to read for more than a few minutes”
CC – one of the internet’s best-kept secrets. 🙂
You hit the nail on the head. I find the comments section in most blogs unreadable. Paul strikes a great balance at Curbside Classic. I don’t find the comments heavily moderated at all (Paul, you are being too hard on yourself) and yet things rarely get out of control or worse, become unreadable.
I come here to share automotive memories, participate in discussion and learn, in equal measure. BaT is great but there isn’t much discussion. I never learn a thing from the comments at TTAC, just get a headache. No site except this one encourages the sharing of memories.
One thing I will say, as a guy who argues with Paul more than he should, is that he needs to like being here too. Otherwise, why do it? If he left or sold the site it wouldn’t be the same. We would lose the glue.
I’ve seen that happen before so cut him some slack even if you think you are right. Unless it’s about Sevilles or Iacocca 🙂
That is why I keep coming back to CC.
EVERY car is interesting for some reason, so it’s worth appreciating.
There is nothing worse than people ripping into each other over a simple difference of opinion. NOBODY wants to see it. We are here because we love cars. We don’t all aspire to owning the latest Porsche or Ferrari, so it’s important to find something to like about every car.
I’m with Doug! I’m fascinated by the histories of cars I would never in a billion years consider owning.
+1 – I remember when a number of website comment sections were my favorite reads. Then, they went down the rabbit hole and that was the end.
I do enjoy the stories and the comments, many of the commenters are very knowledgeable. The site has provided several suggestions for my reading list (On a clear day you can see GM; A Savage Factory; and others.
I would even suggest that the site should have a book link to Amazon, which I would happily click thru.
I prefer moderation to a train wreck. Good work!
This is a good post and I am glad things have been laid out perfectly clear. I myself will be sure to keep myself in check.
I like what you said about applauding deadly sins when you see them driving and well taken care of. When I was working at Jim Coleman Cadillac, I would see this perfectly maintained, two-tone brown and beige Cimarron come in for service, and it was AWESOME!
Well it’s your site, so it’s your discretion to deem what is actually insulting, so whatever. I assume this comes on the wake of the Town Car post where you yourself flew off the handle to the “I don’t get why people like Hondas or BMWs instead of this” comment, which has got to be the most benign comment ever, but apparently it’s a personal insult, (although I think it’s akin to saying “I don’t get why people like fall”, but that’s me)….
Sorry, sorry, *I do not want to reopen that discussion* I’m only bring it back up because I saw that whole exchange was removed sometime yesterday morning, and figured fine, for the best, everyone overreacted a little and it burnt itself out, may as well let sleeping dogs lie. But this post coming seemingly directly in the wake of that, with emphasis on the “victimized” brands irks me. You really don’t notice the constant berating in comments sections for DS christened cars? And I am not even talking about the article content, I mean the comments section. There’s usually 80+ posts in one any one of them and I implore you to proofread through every last post there. I guarantee there will be a relatively heated exchange disparaging the type of people who bought or like those cars and make gross generalizations about the owners, from their lifestyle to their insecurities(now where did I hear that recently? 😉 ), why they would buy them, where they must live, an so on. You cannot deny that that goes on on this site’s comments with zero moderation.
I do indeed see it happen with the brands you mentioned, and I personally have probably participated, and I apologize. However when I see half the personal insults left unmoderated about cars that the site owner just so happens to not care for, I’m sorry but it seems incredibly biased. I’m a moderator on a forum and I’ve witnessed the fallout from moderator bias on the site and behind the scenes, it tends to agitate people who unfairly get the short end of the stick and cause an even bigger divide between personalities. My personal approach to this sort of thing is to let it play out within limits and prune the insults if I have to and make it known it won’t be tolerated, as you did here with this post. But including what YOU feel are the primary victims is a blatant show of bias and pretty damn ominous.
If you feel you or some other group has been denigrated, send me an e-mail and I’ll look into it. As I said, it’s impossible to be “fair”. I’ll do the best I can.
I did want to say two more things. First, there is a big difference between hot heads and mean people. No one wants to be around mean people.
On the other hand if everyone was super polite and just gave thanks all day it might be a boring site. I don’t mind someone stirring things up from time to time if there is a legit beef and they do it in a respectful way. Like Matt just did.
The second point is that it helps to get to know someone. At first I thought our Kiwi friend was the rudest person in the world but then learned the colorful language is part of who they are.
Maybe where Anthony is from is different than the West Coast or Heartland. He was relaying his response to a crack that his Lincoln Town Car was an old man’s car. A wisecrack in the other extreme might be normal there, and therefore not personal, which is not to say it shouldn’t have been called out. Because Paul has to make everyone happy!
Colourful language? I’m deeply denigrated by…oh, you mean Bryce 😉 We Kiwis tend to be fairly straight up, but don’t for a minute think Bryce (or me for that matter) typifies us all!
He mentioned being from Latham, NY… a suburb of Albany, where I lived for a few years. Albany itself is like a distant borough of NYC (or at least it wants to be), but if that had been a snappy, ball-breaking, East Coast wisecrack, it would have been much more obvious. I don’t think it’s considered an insult to call something like a Town Car an “old man’s car” here. That makes me think more of old mobsters than Depends and AARP, which is undoubtedly more glamorous than the other association Town Cars carry (black car service chariot).
That’s not what the guy said, though… if he did, then I can’t imagine there would be any problem. It was more along the lines of “people only aspire to own Hondas or BMW 3-series because they can’t afford Town Cars”. Later on, he added that he was sorry and didn’t mean to insult anyone who “leads a simple, average existence”, chalking up all Honda ownership to the fact that “many people aren’t driven in life”, mysterious political factors, and suggesting that Paul was intimidated by whatever other fancy car he mentioned owning.
Maybe he just lacked any self-awareness whatsoever, but those are pretty obnoxious, insulting statements whether or not they were designed to be. A couple of people suggested that this could be excused as a weird type of playful dick-swinging or something like that, but does it really make any difference? I don’t think that’s cool either way. I also don’t think the author was writing with any sense of irony or humor whatsoever… I caught some other weird stuff in there, too.
No, his initial comment was that he “couldn’t imagine why kids would want a… ”
Nothing that most people would consider insulting at all.
Yes, it did go down hill from there, after he WAS insulted.
And I thought just yesterday you said you were gone for good? But injecting yourself into analyzing and judging my feelings and actions is just way too compelling, right? Kind of like the high school hallway…..isn’t the internet wonderful; we can spend all day gossiping about he said…she said…. Much more interesting than talking about mere cars.
I also find it interesting that the commenters who indulge in this the most here, as well as otherwise being negative, never contribute articles, despite their obviously greater wisdom about all things automotive (and human nature).
Your recap rings a bell. It may have been dick-swinging or simply being a dick as you said. Either way I defended Paul’s right to call it out.
That said I do remember a couple of posts from Paul along the lines of Anthony being an arrogant twit. That’s what caught my attention on a busy day at work.
If the first came after the insulting one about ordinary people lacking drive, that’s one thing. But if it came after saying Honda owners are boring, well that’s a bit different.
Different because a strong comment from a moderator in reply to something minor is igniting not moderating. When things get escalated comments tend to get stronger, less well thought out and you can’t take anything that gets said very seriously.
Someone mentioned a non-personal, on-topic comment in a Camry thread about slow acceleration and how Paul had a harsh reply to that. That was my comment. I said I remembered arguing with someone here once and… blah, bah, blah… the usual Camry rant from me.
Paul jumps in and says that comment was from HIM and starts off on me. That’s igniting. Funny thing is Sean said later the earlier comment came from HIM not Paul, which makes the thing even more bizarre.
I’m sorry but you can’t have it both ways. You can’t ignite and then when people fire back cry woe is me I’m getting worn out.
Hosting this site is a thankless job (usually) and Paul does it well so I support him despite these things.
The reason I don’t feel like posting is because of things like the Iacocca articles. Those were mean-spirited pieces about a great man. I can live with an occasional rant when there is a non-hostile posting environment.
But when it gets to the point that disagreement is considered badgering, by someone who has no problem instigating things himself, I don’t know.
Curbside Classic articles are some of the first hits that come up in an internet search for an old car. I want the opinions here on controversial cars like the Seville and people like Iacocca to have credibility, because of the honest discussion that takes place in the comments section.
When that’s not there I don’t care to be involved with the site. It is ridiculous for some of our younger readers to have the impression that the LH designers designed the roof of the car so that Iacocca couldn’t put a vinyl top on it.
BTW check out Lutz’s rating of the key auto execs. Iacocca is at the top something that never got mention in any of the articles. Why?
I participate occasionally in a boating forum. I’ve learned a lot about boating, and have had some questions answered that saved me money when I was helped with DIY repairs.
But, I’ve also seen the site breakdown into personal attacks and stuff that simply has no value. The site owner does moderate a very few of some of the more extreme comments, but has allowed some bad situations to fester for days.
Paul, I appreciate your judgement in keeping things civil. I probably run against more of your Deadly Sins than with, but your reasoning is always well thought out and contains a lot of relevant information. I appreciate that as snappy debate.
I’m guilty,my dislike of most BL cars and the 58 Lincoln has come out quite a lot.I apologise for any offence
It’s ok for you to not like something. Trust me.
+1
It’s not about disliking cars; it’s about expressing disdain for their owners.
You are doing an awesome job moderating this site. Of all that I read it has the most civil and most intelligent comments.
First of all, I love this site and look forward to reading the latest articles every day. It’s like a daily version of the monthly classic car magazines I subscribed to as a youth, but even better! Reading this section on commenting brings something to mind that I feel I need to say. Hopefully, no one has taken any of my comments offensively- the majority of them have something to do with reminiscing over a particular model that is featured and talking about old memories that start with something like “we once had a 19-something-or-other, bla bla bla.” What I mean to say is, I don’t want to sound like a conceited know-it-all telling old stories about former vehicles. It’s just paying homage to a model that meant something special, even if for only a short time in the course of life. Cars, no matter how basic, are works of art- when you take into account all the designers, engineers, and people who make them possible, they are formed from collaboration, an often limited budget and time constraints, just like a play, a park sculpture and a museum exhibit. Once they’ve had their five minutes of fame, they quietly recede back into the workings of things, turning city blocks with a little duct tape and a few battle scars that come from years of dutiful use, like a stack of well read, musty old library books still in circulation. Enough of the ranting analogies, great website!
I leave the ‘angry sites’ about as soon as I find them. This one has a friendly, neighborhood backyard garage feel to it.
This is a great site with very good contributors, be it an article or a comment. Most importantly, it has been and still is an education. I learn something everyday and appreciate it.
A good new year to all.
CC is a fun site and a daily read for me. It would be a shame if the plug got pulled on this one.
I appreciate the moderated comments section and is one of the reasons that I keep coming back. There is no “fair” or “impartial” but I think Paul does a good job of keeping it civil.
Very well said. I come here frequently because I enjoy the subject matter and really enjoy the comments. There are many sites i like that I never read a single comment because they are all just snide venom. What a pleasure to not have to deal with that here.
If I can tolerate broughams by limiting myself to one snippy comment every few articles about one, everyone else should be able to find reasonable tolerance for other opinions. And even though I’m one of the more opinionated bastards around here, I’m certainly not going to denigrate someone else for having a love for a particular car that would never been seen in my garage.
Saw this and immediately thought of you Syke a Marina with broughamitis, you two favourite generes rolled into one, pick on it as much as you like.
What? No piano on the roof? 😉 And I know Marinas are considered one of BL’s many DSs, but I confess to actually liking the styling if not the engineering…!
No! No! It Burns! Make it Stop!
Actually, for some weird reason, I like the Marina. And am still looking for one for a surprise gift to my brother-in-law.
For some reason, the nadir of the British car industry makes me smile; while the nadir of the American car industry fills me with disgust. I guess its all those years I had to listen to, “American cars suck, buy a Toyota”.
The one pictured is for sale $3,500 NZ pesos it is immaculate or theres a Marina pickup for sale locally for 5k also mint.
From my perception, the entire ethos of CC is one of positivity, and I see that reflected in the comments. If there have been any intensely negative comment threads, I’ve managed to miss them. So keep up the good work (everyone).
Thank you, Paul, for an eloquent note. It’s rare that I agree with anyone completely, but I am in complete agreement with your statements and your unwavering vision for this community that you founded. This is perhaps the only comments section that I read, and the civility that is found here is even more important to me than the wealth of knowledge and humor that is shared daily.
You and I are of a generation that was expected to be polite and well mannered, and although we both may have experienced some youthful indiscretions in conduct, I believe that we have retained those core values that our parents taught us. There was no more withering remark that my father (an Oldsmobile man, with a seasonal tip of the hat to Ralphie and A Christmas Story) had to offer than, after some lapse in judgement on our part, to remind one of us kids that “You were raised better than that.”. He had high expectations of us, and I am thankful now that he held us accountable for our conduct.
In this forum, I find that we can disagree with the opinions of our fellow readers, but still appreciate and respect the viewpoints shared here. I’ve learned a lot from the comments as well as the articles, and CC has taught me to appreciate cars that I would never have even known about or given a second thought, and to enjoy the time spent with writers and fellow CC followers that I would not have met otherwise.
Paul, your welcoming and inclusive manner is especially appreciated by me. As a Broughamite, I have not always felt the love among car people, but it is what I like and that is the way it is for me. You do not make me feel bad about my taste in cars, even if it is not your first choice in styles. You do that for a very lot of people, and that is the foundation of this community. Thank you for everything that you do here, and I hope that you will continue to hold us to your high expectations. We should all be respectful and polite for the good of the community, and when we fail, you are completely justified in taking whatever action you deem necessary and prudent. After all, you raised us better that that.
To Paul and all of the CC Community, Happy Holidays!
You said “a thank you goes a long way”. Well, let me thank you good enough for about a million miles for running this site. I will let my subscription to a classic car magazine run out because of stumbling on this site. You do a fantastic job with it. Moderating is extremely difficult as it involves policing and baby sitting. I could not and would not do it.
Even if some see a bias in your moderating activity, I see an overwhelming welcome to anything with wheels and anyone with a story. Is there any other site with such global reach, contributors and commenters of any corner of this world? If there is one let me know. This is proof to me that you have the heart in the right spot. And I hope you have the engine, fuel, gears, horsepower and “Drehmoment” to keep going even if you have to tap the double leading shoe drum brakes now and then.
Thank you! Happy holidays! May you slip and slide well into the new year!
I initially thought this was an early April Fools gag (Xmas Fools?), as I missed whatever happened (on the TC article?). But having read your words a couple of time now Paul, I whole-heartedly agree with you. The wonderful mood and tone of CC is the reason I followed you here at the start, the reason I visit every day, the reason I comment, and the reason I feel compelled to contribute articles.
I often feel sorry for authors if their article goes off on a weird tangent in the comments. I’d be frustrated if it happened to me (depending on the tangent of course, some are fascinating in their own right). I really enjoyed Anthony’s TC article, he certainly didn’t wouldn’t have expected whatever happened, and likely was disappointed that it did. Such things leave a bad taste in the mouth. None of us authors deliberately write things to stir denigration, we write because we want to share what we’ve found interesting and to discuss it with our fellow CCers.
Having said that, I got snarky with a one-time commenter last year, who got snarky back and things went a bit south, much to my embarrassment (I’m a nice guy, honest!). Paul gave me a thoroughly-deserved rark-up, and deleted most of the comments. Rather than let my stupid comments stand, or throw me off the site, Paul exercised compassionate judgement and taught me a well-deserved lesson.
So whatever happened this week (and I don’t care to know), good on you Paul for not only dealing with it, but for being straight-up now and telling it like it is.
CC is my oasis. Being able to read the comments and learn something instead of tip-toeing through a minefield of vitriol, spite, and vulgarity makes coming here like hanging out at an actual gearhead event. Thank you Mr. Niedermeyer!
After having been through a myriad # of editorial changes and challenges at places like The Truth About Cars I am happy for the consistency and civility that Paul has brought. I only regret not having more free time to contribute things.
I used to be a TTAC reader. I just can’t handle it anymore over there- the only thing I look at are the Junkyard Finds.
The atmosphere here is light and welcoming- CC is now the website that keeps me from doing actual work!
Thanks Paul, and all the contributors. You’ve all made this my favorite site.
Thank you.
TTAC was one of many blogs that I left behind because the comments section dissolved into insults, politics and prejudices finally let free where the speaker couldn’t be held to account with a sock to the nose. TTAC, FARK, and Cracked are among those I left behind in my search for positivity. CC is my first stop in the morning over breakfast, and it always sets the pleasant tone for the day I need.
I don’t comment all that often, only because others usually say what I would, and often it’s said better than I could. But every day I appreciate this community and Paul’s guidance of it.
Thank you Paul and all the contributors. You are doing a fine job and I greatly appreciate it! I love the wide variety of cars posted and the fact that there is a vibe that celebrates the unloved, underappreciated models. I mean there are people who love sixes here! I personally love alot of unpopular cars and enjoy reading all the posts and comments too. I’ve reached the age where I’m not that impressed by the car that someone may drive as a status symbol but that doesn’t keep me from enjoying looking at the car. Keep up the good work. I told my wife that being on this site was like hanging out with other car guys “who get me” and that hasn’t happened much in real life.
A famous quote might apply here also:
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
and small minds discuss people
Think of the car not as a person but as an idea put into a drivable form.
+1
That’s pretty deep. 🙂
Brilliant.
I found this terrific website just over three years ago. The amazing civility is part of what kept me coming back.
A long time ago I told Paul the comments are an opiate that has kept me contributing for the duration of time I have. Sure, I like to toss out a few things in articles simply for entertainment value. Yes, I have danced on a dangerous line (Chevrolet Cruze review), been an overt smart-ass (nearly all rental car reviews), and have been misinterpreted in the comments a few times (Toyota Camry).
Soon after contributing I learned a little something that I have tried to keep in mind at all times, be it in an article or in a comment: I can say something to you in person with a smile on my face, a laugh in my voice, or a twinkle in my eye….I cannot do that when all you can see of me is words on a screen.
I guess this is an artifact of living in the internet age; the capability to be an ass from anywhere in the world anonymously.
I should start off by saying I’ve been here since the start, even before the start if you figure I followed Paul’s postings over at the other site. It’s been something of a small miracle that this site has never attracted “real” trolls. We have a few folks who are rather opinionated, but generally everyone behaves pretty well. Apparently I missed the recent controversy, it’s not fun to have to step into the middle of those things.
One thing for folks to remember: We see and interact with each other on this board through our internet identities, our avatars, in a manner of speaking. I “know” several folks by their handles here, but a fair number of us met in Auburn, Indiana back in October and it was fantastic to meet the owners of these avatars. The reason why I relate this is this: it is very easy to type something on keyboard and post it. But if you really had to say it to guy were he sitting across the table from you, would you really say the things you post?
For those of you (and I’m sure it’s the vast majority here) who have never met your CC friends in the flesh, they (we?) are the people you imagine. We are (mostly) car guys, intensely interested in almost anything that has a motor, tires and a steering wheel (or any combination). The folks I met in Auburn were genuinely friendly, curious and courteous. It was like we knew each other for years and were just picking up the conversation again. Which, in a way, it was.
That characteristic is what makes this site so unique. The commentators generally are good to one another and to the amateur authors who devote their spare time (of which is in short supply for me these days) to writing these posts. I really appreciate all of the authors, the commentators and Paul as moderator in all you folks do. Thank you very much.
One thing to remember: this is not a democracy. Paul runs the show, we should remember to act like we’ve been invited into his home. Act accordingly. If you don’t like it there are lots of other places to be.
Two items I should note: At the Auburn meet up, there was a rather young man attending. I thought he was the son of one of the commentators, but I later found out that he was a regular commentator, Mr. Edward Mann. I hope you didn’t feel snubbed by me, I just didn’t realize who you were. (Next time we do a midwest meet up, I’m bringing the name tags…) For a young person, you have a lot of information in your head. Keep it up, it may come in handy someday. 🙂
Also, I really didn’t get a chance to properly thank Paul for the wonderful lunch/dinner/thing we all did in Auburn. Vielen Danke, Herr Niedermeyer. Es war wunderbar!
Sorry for the long rant. You can see I feel strongly about this. Carry on…
Thanks, and have an Oldsmobile Aurora for your troubles.
Woo hoo! I love Auroras! 🙂
Mr. Edward Mann is not just a commenter, he also contributes (well-researched) articles. And in my opinion, the most difficult articles to write are the ones about cars that are older than the author, i.e. the author never had the chance to experience the car as a new one and the social context that it was created and/or marketed within, which in this case describes virtually all of the subject matter here…
Absolutely no arguments there, Jim. 🙂 I just felt bad for misjudging the young man. Total bonehead move on my part.
This seems like a good time to add my name to the list of folks saying “Thanks” to Paul and the other contributors to this site. I’ve often marvelled at just how polite everyone here is compared to some other sites I can think of.
Cheers!
Absolutely. I’m so happy that the ego’s (if there are any) are put aside on this website. I remember becoming a member of the Polk Audio Forum for just one day. I mentioned that I was a fan of Roger Russell from McIntosh, and I was promptly informed by a few people (not Polk employees, but you’d think they were) that their forum was not the place for me. Seems many forums are just tight cliques, rather than discussion boards. I gave up commenting three hours after joining. Oh well….
No such negative experiences here at CC! Keep up the great work, Paul.
A rare voice of reason on the interwebs. Thanks for all you do on this site. I comment rarely, but enjoy it daily. And this is one of the reasons.
I initially read your comment minus my glasses and misread your user name as something less polite! 😉 Note to self: you have glasses for a reason Scott, wear them!!
CC is like a bunch of us sitting in folding chairs at the garage door when someone drives up in vehicle “X,” at which point we ooh and aah and swap ‘war stories’ until the next car shows up. “Differences of opinion make a horse trader,” and while there may be passion in the opinions, there’s almost always a respect even in the disagreements. Paul has rightly pulled the plug when things truly got out of hand, and with the rapid rise in readership over the past year or so, perhaps that’s happened a little more often, but there’s no question the tone here is still civil in a way that’s rare on the interwebs.
Drive on, Paul!
I largely stopped visiting CurbsideClassic and completely stopped commenting here (and nothing of value to the site was lost…) because I disagreed with Paul’s moderation/scolding policy.
It seems that leaving negative comments on cars that Paul doesn’t like are given a lot more leeway than posting a negative comment on something he personally enjoys.
Is saying “a Camry is a boring car for boring people” any different than saying “the Seville is a fake luxury car for fake people”? I don’t think they are but Paul’s response to these two lines will be different (and yes, I can find examples if I need to).
Paul himself called the Grand Am “the ultimate trailer trash mobile”. How is that not a personal attack on owners?
Bingo, and that’s why this post will probably be the last one you read from me here in a looooooooooooong time.
I hope you enjoyed reading this before it gets deleted…..
I did 🙂
“Paul himself called the Grand Am ‘the ultimate trailer trash mobile’. How is that not a personal attack on owners?”
A fair question. But why not just call it out next time you see it? You would be a great regular commenter here. As for Carmine, the site wouldn’t be the same without him.
“But why not just call it out next time you see it?”
I’ve brought up similar grievances about three or four times now (including in the comment I posted above). At this point I feel like I’ve said my peace. I don’t really need to be CurbsideClassic’s resident whiner that has to fall back onto his fainting couch every time someone types a thing that rubs me wrong. Plus, I’m not too keen on telling Paul how to run his website in the first place.
Almost all of the comments on here are complimentary, so it seems like I am one of the few people that have a problem with the way things are. I’ll live fine without CC and I’m sure it will live fine without me.
Oh stop being silly. They are just cars. Inanimate objects. There is absolutely thing to get upset, or in a snit about. Get real here, guys. Get out more. Get a hobby, or a girlfriend.
+1
Sorry, minus-1 from me. “Hey, get a life, losers!” How is this better than saying nothing?
“Must you externalize every fleeting thought?”
I have said many things I regret, that being one of them. My apologies for anyone that was offended.
I’ve never said ” the Seville was a fake luxury car for fake people”. What exactly is a “fake person”? I’m not familiar with the concept.
ajla and CARMINE, for what it’s worth, I would hope that you guys would continue to participate here. I’ve enjoyed both of your posts and even if you don’t necessarily agree with the mod, that doesn’t mean you have to go away angry. In the end, we’re just BS-ing about old cars, not negotiating a Middle East Peace Settlement. Although, I suspect that may be easier than what gets done here… 🙂
Both of you have a wealth of information that I’ve found fascinating in your posts. My father always said to me that the day you stop learning is the day you die. You guys (and others on here) are helping to keep me alive, so to speak…
Agreed. We all like to hang around with people who agree with us on everything, but you don’t really learn much that way. Like some others here, I like to think of CC as a kind of a family. We all get a little testy with certain family members from time to time, but the bond runs deeper than that, or at least should. If I can forgive Carmine for making me think of the Pinto steering wheel every time I see one of my beloved 1970s Lincolns, then it should be possible for others to live and let live too. 🙂
There is one problem with saying Toyota Camry’s are boring cars for boring people. It’s not necessarily true. I have a 2014.5 Camry SE with the four cylinder. It is a very competent, fairly fast, good handling car.
I’ve owned 2 Porsche’s, 2 BMWs, a Mercedes, 3 Saabs, 2 VWs, 2 Toyotas, a Nissan, a Cadillac, 4 Fords, a Honda, a Buick, an Infiniti, and a Kia, and I can tell you as an enthusiast, this Camry, despite some weaknesses, is a very good car!
Don’t believe me? Check out this article about how fast it is around the track: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/05/review-toyota-camry-se-2-5l-track-tested/
Actually it all depends on how you say it. Regarding the Camry, I could make the same statement in two different ways:
1. “Camry’s are boring cars for boring people.”
2. “Camry’s are cars designed primarily for people who have no particular interest in the automobile, except as a transportation appliance.”
Now, I see the two statements as saying the exact same thing, as a person who has “no particular interest in the automobile, except as a transportation appliance” really equals “boring people” (at least in this social circle). And no doubt more than half the responders on these pages would agree with that equivalence. But the one statement is a direct slap in the face, while the other would offend nobody – and would probably be taken as a statement of fact.
I don’t read them the same at all. Calling a non-motorizing enthusiast a “boring person” is a pretty broad overreach, in my opinion.
+1.
Both statements are inappropriate and inaccurate.
1. You make assumptions about people who drive Camrys when you have absolutely no basis for that. You know nothing about what they do in their lives. A choice of car does not define a person. And who decides whether a person is boring? Is every person who doesn’t drive an “enthusiast car” automatically boring? That’s what you’re saying. Frankly, I find persons who make statements like this boring.
2. Wrong, inasmuch as Camrys are capable of being more than mere transportation devices. A Camry SE V6 is a very fast and capable sport sedan. Maybe not the world’s best, but capable enough, and certainly fast. Folks who buy them are obviously not just looking to be a mere transportation appliance.
Furthermore, there are folks who buy what might appear to be “transportation appliances” and yet drive them like an enthusiast. I used to to regularly drive both our Dodge Grand Caravan and Forester at triple digit speeds. These are obviously “transportation appliances”, especially so the GC. I can drive ANY car fast and derive driving pleasure from it.
In both cases you’re making exactly the kind of sweeping generalizations and assumptions that I find both lacking in insight and perspective (to use civilized terms). They’re precisely the kind of comments this whole article is addressing: Don’t judge people by the car they drive, because you’re inevitably wrong.
Exactly Paul! I never considered our Camrys boring, even if they were not SEs and not equipped with V6 engines. It’s also a matter of perspective, in the sense of what you grew up with and what you’ve owned in the past.
I remember quite well the family 1955 Chevy and all the cars that followed. I learned to drive in a ’67 Bel Air six with 3-on-the-tree that really wasn’t all that far removed, save for a modicum of safety features (lap belts and collapsible steering column!), from the ’59 Bel Air infamously crashed by the IIHS. The ’67, at least in 6-cylinder guise, was hardly an enthusiast’s car, but it would be nice to gaze at today.
Then the cars that my wife and I had before we were married were hardly paragons of performance, let alone reliability in many cases: 196x Opel Kadette, ’73 Nova hatchback, ’75 Corolla, and ’75 Rabbit. (The last was my first car, and while spunky and quite roomy for its small exterior size, was also very noisy and unreliable.)
Then following marriage, we traded our 2 ’75s for one ’79 Westmoreland Rabbit, less powerful but quieter and somewhat more reliable, followed in succession by a lightly used 1980 Volvo 242DL that we kept until 2003, a 1977 Impala with over 100K miles, and another Volvo 240, this time a well-used wagon that we kept for less than a year.
Then came our loveliest car, a new first-gen Mercury Sable (the domestic Camry?) that cost us dearly in upkeep after about 65K miles with all of the usual maladies except for head gaskets (avoided by lucking into the Vulcan V6).
That car was gone before we gave up the Volvo 2-door, replaced by our first Camry, a 1997 LE 4 right off the showroom floor, supposedly decontented, but it served our needs quite well. So much so that we sold it in 2004 for a new Camry LE 4 only because we wanted side airbags, followed the next year with an additional Camry, an XLE 4 just to get the 8-way power passenger seat for my wife’s back problems.
Also backing up to 1998, I got a screaming deal on a nearly new Frontier pickup (4-cyl. 5-speed manual) which we still own today.
So I ask in comparison to all of the other iron (with the arguable exception of the Rabbits), how “boring” are the decade-old Camrys?
Thank you Paul. CC has quickly become of my favorite car websites, it has a very friendly feel to it and I love almost all of the car features. The writing is akin to the best car magazines.
I didn’t realize there was an issue with comments; one of the reasons I enjoy reading the comments here is because the membership seems to be at a bit more higher maturity level than most other car websites and it seems like most get along aside from the occasional one-line zinger, but then again I don’t read every feature and I guess I missed something.
Anyway, great job with CC and moderate as you see fit.
Thank you Paul for this article about commenting. I have to add that Curbside Classic has one of the best commentariat on the web, in my opinion, but yes, sometimes things get out of hand. But it’s nothing compared to the average news site or even the seemingly erudite NPR. The worst, by far, has to be YouTube — real morons posting there!
My wife and I have been longtime Camry owners and just recently sold one to buy a Prius, so you can imagine how I feel about all the “boring” and “pious” comments regarding our choice of wheels. (I also have a 1998 Nissan Frontier pickup which nicely flies under the radar with no negativity at all; at least I have never heard any except for Consumer Reports repeatedly calling it “crude.”)
I have to agree with the others that this site is a joy to read, always something of interest, and the comments usually add a lot to the talented writing of the contributors. I just recently read the January issue of Car and Driver (the “10 Best” issue), and came away feeling, “Is this all there is?” CC is so much more engaging!
I am at the point in my life where i respect all the engineering that goes into making a car “boring.” Or as i told one person who had a Camry, “if you are into quality and reliability, it’s a nice car.”
If it weren’t for well engineered boring dead reliable daily drivers I wouldn’t have extra cash to spend on my classics.
If it weren’t for well engineered boring dead reliable daily drivers the car companies wouldn’t have extra cash to spend on designing enthusiast cars.
+1
Yes, and even my 2 decade old Camrys are still super reliable so I can have extra cash for my ’67 pickup long term project! And as Paul said, it’s how you use them!
But the “if you’re into quality and reliability, it’s a nice car” is a reputation thing, not necessarily based on driving a current model. I haven’t driven any current Camry’s other than my SE, but the engine and transmission are very strong, the car handles flat and controlled at 50 mph on 270 degree off ramps, the steering is wonderful and light around town (on the highway it has a dead spot with no feel on center which combined with a fast steering ratio makes it a touch hard to steer straight). It’s an enthusiast car.
This has to be my favorite site of all time. Thanks for a great place to “visit ” with other gearheads. I must admit that when driving I am compelled to look at every car I meet. After finding this site I started noticing the so called underdogs more. Even though I prefer domestic cars I have an appreciation for all cars. I especially like the articles about foreign versions of US makes.
Heck, even though my favorite is the Mustang ( not sure about the ’15 yet) Broughams have always been a guilty pleasure of mine.
Also, I never before realized how many versions of the Panther there were.
Keep up the good work!
i believe there is a difference between disagreeing with an article, and being mean. I come to this site for knowledge, entertainment, and the comments. I have driven my share of deadly sins, and a few “hits” that i had nothing but problems with… Thank you Chrysler on both of those scenarios, btw. The fun is finding out about those cars I neither see anymore, or were not ever imported here. Paul, I respect and honor your right to remove comments, I ask that you do it with a light hand. Yes, a comment that reads like “such a car sucks, and their owners suck too” isn’t useful, but go easy on those who go through the reasons they disagree with you.
I enjoy reading comments from people who know far more than I ever will about the vehicles featured here. It would be a shame to have comments deleted entirely. I think people here are extremely civilized compared to most websites of this type.
I certainly thank Paul and all the other contributors, as well as commenters, who make this site what it is. In the past, I’ve regularly followed some sites that attract “trolls,” who tend to say the same thing all the time and act as though they are superior while everyone else is relegated to inferior. And, some of those sites have people who will make a post bashing (or at least saying something negative) about another frequent poster. In both cases in not only gets old real fast, it just seems so juvenile or immature.
I like what Paul is saying because I can respect differences of opinion, but do not care to see frequent bashing, ridiculing of people who like a certain car, or out-and-out personal attacks. However, having said that, I think there has been and may continue to be a certain amount of good-natured teasing. And I can deal with that. What has happened on occasion is people have shared thoughts and opinions that many of us know or believe to be widely held, which while obviously and blatantly may come across as negative, doesn’t necessarily mean we believe that or that that is necessarily true. I think that falls into the category of a generalization, which of course isn’t always true, yet some people may give examples of when it is or has been true. So, I think I understand where Paul is coming from when he acknowledges that he can’t always be fair. Which is true for all of us. I am grateful for this site and I often find more articles and comments than I have time to read. So keep up the good work Paul, and everyone else who contributes to this site.
Was my off-the-cuff Ford van comment THAT objectionable, Paul?
🙁
Nope. It’s still there, right? 🙂
We all have differing experiences, and that’s where we clash. My father was burned by a Chevrolet. He had a nice Ford. In High School, all I wanted was a Ford. I got one. It took me to the cleaners. I got a Buick next, and fell in love with it. I then fixed a 1987 Chevrolet, and fell in love. In two years, I went from being a loyal Ford person to wanting nothing to do with them.
Today, I don’t know if I could bring myself to buy another 1992-1996 F150. It was my experience.
We all have preferences of what we like, and what we dislike. I may not like Fords, but I can fully respect someone who does. My father’s Ford got him 369k trouble free (Mostly) miles. Mine stranded me twice in three months.
For any car, whatever it may be, I can respect someone’s love of it. Whether you want a Buick Roadmaster wagon, an AMC Eagle, or a Pontiac Sunfire, I can respect that.
I hope my posts don’t rub off the wrong way. I have a hard time looking at vehicles without emotions. That’s why we’re all here, though.
Well said Paul, thank you. Every car (or motor vehicle, for that matter) has a story!
PN – I followed you here from TTAC, I read when time allows (love COALS) and it is one of the few sites (of any type) where I enjoy reading the comments as they enrich the article.
Round of applause for laying down the law – either add to the knowledge and enjoyment or STFU – I’ll keep reading!
Yes,I do admit that I have made a few remarks that some might view as disparaging or insensitive, but it`s all in the name of sarcasm or satire.I have a keen sense of humor, and sometimes it might not always be politically correct, but in reality, I`m just trying to have some fun with it, so don`t take it too seriously.If I do ridicule something, its the car, not the person or group that drives it. I`ve had a few of these cars myself, so maybe I should make fun of myself too. Has America become so shallow that a person should be judged by the make and model of the car that he or she drives? I hope not!
Actually that’s kind of been the case since cars were invented 😉 .
As a newbie to this site, let me say thanks to Paul for keeping this one of the most informative and entertaining sites I visit. I have found that the ‘net forums I enjoy most tend to be moderated to some degree. Keep up the good work Paul!
I’m probably not the oldest person here, but older than many, and I really like the posts about cars I rode in as a kid in the ’50s. I recently shared this site with a friend, telling him it’s about “real cars for real people.”
An example of commenting from some other website (Topic: Sony Pictures’ cancelling of “The Interview”…)
“I can’t shake the feeling that this is Seth Rogen and Franco’s plan to pull a Citizen Kane. That movie was essentially shut down by Hertz and became infamous. Not that I think Rogen and Franco are of the level of Orsen Wells…” (paragraph sic)
The irony of mistaking a media baron for a car rental chain, making it CC fodder, does not escape me. Funny – this thread has made me think about what I do when I read comments on other sites… I usually just scan, shake my head, and pick flies out of the soup. Here, I participate. Kudos to you, Paul. Merry Christmas and keep up the fine work!
For a site about cars, the comments are unusually civil and troll free. Followed CC from TTAC and never went back for those reasons.
I like guns as well as cars. But as useful as many gun forums are when you need to get help with a technical issue, the politics are too confrontational and nasty at times. CC never lets politics ruin the good vibes. Thank you for that.
I really enjoy CC, its tone, and the healthy level of debate it encourages. That said, I did not read the same uncivil tone in Anthony’s responses to his Town Car article as others did, simply the personality of someone who seems to know his own preferences well.
I do hope that we have not discouraged similar articles from those who put a great deal of emotion into their automotive choices. The desire for individuality or to conform to or differentiate ourselves from a group of people, play a great and important part in how we buy and perceive cars, and understanding how these forces affect the market benefits a number of CC articles and enriches their historical context.
Paul’s house, Paul’s rules. They seem fair to me.
This was up today on MITs Technology Review website (another site I greatly enjoy that does not have much trouble with trolls).
This goes into a good deal of depth about the kinds of problems CC has avoided.
http://www.technologyreview.com/photoessay/533426/the-troll-hunters/?utm_campaign=newsletters&utm_source=newsletter-daily-all&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20141218
Thanks again Paul for this oasis.
Spot on, Paul. Seems everything I was going to say has been said and said well by you and others.
I spend more time on this site than any other, but don’t have the time I used to, hence fewer comments from me lately.
Well done, Curbside Classic, well done.
Best car site on the web. Informative and entertaining articles. Thoughtful and polite commentators. Extremely well run and moderated. Well done Mr Neidermeyer.
+100! By the time I started driving, my dad was driving Mopars, so that is the brand closest to my heart. However, I STILL remember the 1955 Ford Town Sedan that he bought right off of the showroom floor, and the trauma induced in a 6 year old to watch a truck slam into the side of it! I personally have (and still) own Chevrolets/Fords/Hondas, and of course various Mopars. At this stage in life, I appreciate ALL old car survivors, irrespective of brand. These automotive creations whether “outrageous, ridiculous, superb, or divine” help me to remember the experiences of living, whether good, bad, or indifferent. The personal experiences, comments, and opinions, and the WEALTH of arcane knowledge are what endear me to this site!! 🙂
This is one of the rare places where comments are respectable. Well done.
For every single car featured, somewhere out there is an owner of that car. I always try to keep that in mind as I read or comment on anything here. Having read a negative article and remarks about a car I own isn’t exactly fun reading, but I understand that not everybody shares my enthusiasm or taste and try not to take it personally. It’s a bit hard sometimes, as that negativity about your car gets transferred on to you as an owner, but that may be my own insecurity. Usually you can add a positive remark to the discussion and let the rest go….Curbside Classic is a great place to come and I look forward to the wide range of articles and discussion. Thank you!
I enjoy this site so much that I’m in and out of here all day (when the boss ain’t lookin’).
I would be terribly disappointed if CC came to an end. Thank you, Paul, for all that you do.
Well, I’m a little late here. May I share some constructive criticism? This seems like the place for it.
Paul, your response to certain comments has been, at times, disproportionate. A sentence or two on the TC article would have made your point about not disparaging owners when we complain about cars. Or, you could have deleted the comment (which no one else found objectionable) and sent the commenter a private note. Instead you let loose with thousands of words, which predictably turned into a heated exchange where none had been…why?
I wondered the same thing a while back, when a few people made comments about old Camrys being underpowered, and you kinda went off on them. I think you told someone he was making an ass of himself with an on-topic, non-personal comment no one but you replied to. If you hadn’t responded at all, would anyone else have been offended, or even noticed? Is your goal as moderator to moderate or intensify?
These are questions I absolutely have to direct at myself and other regulars as well. As noted, it’s your site, your rules, etc. Your patience with this motley crew is vast, but not boundless. Sometimes it’s good to be reminded. Thank you again for all you do here.
All true. And I take responsibility for my faults and biases.
I did allow myself to get triggered by someone probably 20 years younger than me repeatedly telling me that because I drive a Honda (which I do), my life was pathetic and that I was obviously a person with low life ambitions compared to his and others that drive exalted Lincolns.
I have my limits, and he stepped over them. That’s the first time anyone has ever said anything so blatantly stupid and personally insulting here.
I didn’t invite this person to CC; someone else did. It’s like a dinner guest to your house that shows up with another uninvited guest. You might expect them to show a bit of restraint and civility under the circumstances. Not so.
It’s always been somewhat of a challenge for me to see posts on my site by writers who obviously don’t share any of my values, interests and perspective. I sometimes wonder if I’ve opened it up too much. I admit that seeing things on my site that are so utterly opposite of what I would chose to read, never mind write, is sometimes very challenging for me.
And sometimes I don’t handle that well. Do I exercise more editorial control? Or let it be a free-for all, which it largely has been.
I admit that my patience with certain commenters has been increasingly frayed. Some of them are like Pavlovian dogs: you say a certain thing, or write about a certain car, and they’re all over it, with the same comments, over and over. And some of them are more interested in tussling with me than with actually commenting on the actual post.
It’s worn me down, and I’m quite fatigued.If I could figure out a way to take a month or 6 or a year off, I would. But I haven’t found a way.
But FWIW, it appears some of the worst thorns in my side have gotten the message. This moderation is nothing new; I’ve been doing it for some time, and some have gotten the hint: I really don’t welcome your presence here. Others not quite.
I’ve been planning to do a post about this issue for months, and the recent issue with this unpleasant uninvited guest pushed me over the edge, in more way than one.
I have some regrets, but I also have to recognize that my patience is limited. I do have a rep for “not suffering fools well”, and when I get burned out, it really shows. Oh well; that’s how I am; take it or leave it.
Thanks. You are in a truly unusual editorial position here and I appreciate your dedication. Any criticism I make is meant to be helpful, not antagonistic, and I hope that comes through.
I’m happy to take it, won’t leave it, if that’s ok with you. 🙂
Paul, I think of CC like a family of car lovers…we’ll have our disagreements, but at the end of the day, shake hands and go grab dinner, appreciating the CCs we see along the way.
The “best and brightest” here are a completely different animal than TTAC. Always has been.
Please allow me to state that IMHO, some cars objectively invite denigration…(not commenters, cars)…the Grand Am from July being one of them.
I think you framed it perfectly…”from the company that brought you the ’63 GP and ’66 GTO”. Context is vital and you provided it, otherwise it would be simply an ad hominem attack with the “trailer trash” part thrown in as hurtful punctuation.
Should mention at this point that my son’s gf…our future daughter-in-law…recently purchased a black Grand Am similar to the white one in your comment. LOVES it. So does my son…who owns a ’93 Accord SE which is quite engaging to drive. Yet he’s driven the Grand Am and raves about it. Neither one are remotely what anyone could call “trailer trash”…yet it’s hard for me to refute the charges against the Grand Am. And I’m not offended in the least for you to have referred to it as such…with a singular caveat: What if it had been built to the standard GM puts into their cars TODAY? I think we’d be talking about it far more positively.
My other son bought a toaster. No, I don’t call his 2011 Honda Accord that to his face. And I’ve never had occasion to ride in or drive that car. But he loves it too and it’s been a good car for him so far. Everyone says the newer Accords are bland compared with 20 years ago…someday I’ll have a chance to find out and either confirm it’s a toaster or profoundly apologize.
I miss the Deadly Sin series, and wanted to see more of the GM series you started…the first one was about tiny tires in the 60s. Respectful, sometimes impassioned commentary adds spice and perspective so long as it doesn’t fall into ad hominem territory. We can agree to disagree and appreciate everyone’s opinion.
I’d truly hope CC doesn’t become a place where no criticism is permitted. I’ve learned much here, most importantly that there are vehicles I’d never even consider owning that others…most significantly younger commenters…remember far differently and more affectionately.
I’ve learned that Every Car Has A Story…and I’m a more well-rounded car guy for it.
If I’ve ever crossed the line I’m truly sorry. I’ve gotten vociferous over GM’s 1970s-80s-90s offerings BECAUSE OF my lifelong Chevrolet affection. Not because I dislike the Mark of Excellence.
I’d truly hope CC doesn’t become a place where no criticism is permitted.
It’s not, as long as I am here. 🙂
There’s a big difference between genuine criticism and ragging on other folks.
Mr. N: I don’t think I’ve ever read anything on this site that comes close to the low level of discourse I have seen on others. It’s why I come here. Thanks for running a site featuring cars that never get any attention, press or analysis.
I don’t bother with most of my past favorites sites as there’s always a snarky know it all, posters who seek to impress with the nastiness of their comments or petty juvenile x brand is better than y brand nyahhhh ! nonsense. This is found on even real estate sites and let’s not even mention AOL’s un-moderated [or so it appears] comment sections where people thrive on character assassination. It’s not apparent [to me] on this site.
Thanks for this site. I’ve been following you and young Mr N since TTAC and appreciate the respect you show even the most modest vehicles.
I enjoy posting here because I do believe the vast majority of CC posters are fair minded and old enough to express the proper perspective when discussing cars that might have had emotional meaning to them at some point in their lives. Generally, most commenters are aware of their own personal prejudices and will own up to them. I do get turned off by people who over-generalize that certain cars are ugly or horrible or not worth even discussing. No one needs pedantry when trying to enjoy all cars in all their individual glory.
In my experience the tone of the comments on CC have been generally been fairly civilized relatively speaking. I think we can disagree without being disagreeable.
Keep up the good work, Paul.
And everyone else, thank you for keeping a constructive environment for all.
I just had a small insight – it’s easier on a site like this where we mostly discuss vehicles that were built quite some time ago to keep politics out of the discussion. The maxim “You may not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you” makes it very, very difficult to keep politics out of any discussion of things that are happening now. One example is the way that the United States continuing to have different standards and requirements for new cars than the rest of the world limits the choices in new cars that are available to US buyers. It may not be political in a partisan way, but it is political.
We’re quite a crew here, from youngsters to older guys like me, whose first car was a 1947 Chevrolet in 1956. The variety of experiences and of viewpoints is quite amazing but also understandable. The main thing we all have in common is a thorough appreciation for this site and for Paul’s dedication to it, even more than our interest in curbside classics themselves.
Well put. I was also thinking along the same lines, that the discussion usually tends to get more heated, opinionated and political the newer the vehicle being discussed is.
I usually stay away from articles on newer vehicles here, but I’d say the recent article on the new RAM1500 EcoDiesel was a good example. I waded into that one because I’m a diesel fan, have looked at this truck closely, and would like to own one eventually if it doesn’t develop a bad reputation.
Even in that thread, the comments didn’t realyl get out of hand.
Maybe if we prefixed some of our comments with an “IMHO” (such as “_____’s suck IMHO”or “IMHO i can’t understand why anyone would drive a ____”) that might make things a little smoother. It’s very hard to show, say, sarcasm, in a post on a forum, so many can (and will) take things the wrong way. Myself included 🙂 . Anywhoo I can be a bit argumentative (ask my uberlib sister 😀 ) here myself, and I certainly hope no one takes it personally. I promise I won’t 🙂 .
A friend once told me I’m not allowed to use the acronym “IMHO” because I am never humble. 😀
Hah!!! The same could be said of me 😀 !
I am an infrequent commenter who reads this site everyday,and am always amazed by what I did not know. Yes, you will run in to the occasional cranky poster, but it does not really bother me. Of course, I’m not the one getting hammered either. Unfortunately, civility in public discourse really is becoming a lost art.
A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!
The format and comments section is what got me hooked on CC. The first time I was on here I could tell this was a good place with good people. This is a relaxing place to go when I need to get away from the problems of daily life.
This will be my last visit to CC. I’m simply fed up with the respectful, polite, troll-free lambastings going on. This is the internet, for ****’s sake, not a public *****ng library! If I wanted civil discourse, I’d go to Youtube.
Also ****, *****, ***, *,. *********, and ********uckers!
I thought I knew all the cuss words, but you’ve stumped me – what the heck does the single ‘*’ stand for? Enquiring minds want to know! 😉
Not sure if serious…
I’m a longtime veteran of bullshitting about cars on the internet, and as far as I’m concerned CC is the greatest forum devoted to this pastime that has ever existed. There are a lot of other sites that do great articles, but it’s the comments and people making them here that keep me coming back to CC several times a day, every single day. This atmosphere is so exceptionally pleasant that the few heated arguments or ugly comments just seem like speed bumps quickly passed over.
I’m also guilty of ripping on people and losing my patience from time to time, so I apologize to anyone I’ve been an asshole to. That’s usually not the intention, and it never seems so bad while I’m typing… but I’ve occasionally gone back a day or two later and been embarrassed by things I wrote. I have a tough time biting my tongue when it comes to certain attitudes, but I’ll try harder.
very, very well said, Paul !