Roshake found this VW 411 in Budapest; it’s the first one found and posted at CC since 2016. Jeez; are they getting a bit rare, or? No love for VW’s near-deadly sin?
It was pretty roomy and comfortable, and rode nicely, but it was lethargic and had a thirst for fuel at the same time. That was deadly combination for Europeans, and its high price and modest attractions made it DOA in the US.
But I do have a bit of a soft spot for the Variant wagon, for one reason or another. It reminds me of a slightly smaller Corvair. It just needs a six cylinder engine out back, like one from a 911.
Of course it’s been done.
Related CC reading:
Curbside Classic: 1971 Volkswagen 411 – Searching For Its Niche
Vintage R&T Review: 1971 Volkswagen 411 (Type 4) – Old Habits Die Hard
Curbside Classic: 1974 VW 412 – VW’s Deadly Sin #1
Curbside Outtake: VW 412 Variant – A Rare and Deadly but Intriguing Night Visitor
Indeed. This is one of those cars that I never realized were all gone until one day, and then they were.
I do see a nicely-preserved 412 around my town every so often when the weather is nice, but really, that’s it.
Jeff, that’s a Type 3 “Squareback” or 1600. They were sold here for almost a decade and were very common. And there’s a fair number still around. They have an enthusiastic following.
Ah, whoops. Although I totally never see these around either!
Not much hope in the looks department, for the 411 Fastback. It made the Chevrolet Citation appear alluring. And the Olds/Buick Aerobacks, seem sophisticated. As I thought the five door Citation, looked like an insect.
Hopelessly ugly cars, with their short tails, and long snout. Combined with the non-hatchback fastback.
The short tail and long snout worked better on the first-generation Mustang.
First time, I’ve heard the 411’s looks, compared to a Mustang. lol First gen Mustang had a short snout. Snout comprising the overhang forward of the front wheels. 411’s ‘snout’, longer than the length aft of the front wheels, to the start of the front doors. Ungainly proportioned, unlike the Mustang.
Somewhere between this and the Austin Maxi, Pininfarina had come up with quite a nice-looking car.
Unfortunately, both were compromised by hideous proportions…
How about a Subaru boxer ? Plenty of room for a “bottom breather” radiator up front. My brother in law found this one in Sunnyvale, CA last year, apparently in drivable condition.
Lots of room for a Passat B3 “bottom breather” grille/radiator.
Weren’t the 411/412 engines the ones used in Porsche’s 914, more or less? I always kind of liked those big aircooled VWs, so rare now.
Also used in the ’75-76 Porsche 912E (different from the original 912 that used a 356 engine), as a stop-gap entry-level model after the 914 was discontinued until the 924 was ready for market.
Yup, and also used in second and third generation VW buses. Ceck out the last two of Paul’s links to this posting
We never got these in Australia, probably because they would have been priced against the Big Three’s popular sixes, (1600s were already pricey for their size) and the clattering, slow VWs were falling out of favour here by then, an extrememly hard sell against the Japanese cars. Whenever I see one of these online I get a real ‘alternative universe’ vibe. It raises questions.
I wonder why they went with a fastback look for the sedan, rather than the traditional three-box look? Would more conventional styling have helped? Was it really noticeably bigger than the 1600? I can look up the dimensions, but how did it feel – bigger, roomier?
I’ll have to go check the Related Reading, it’s probably all covered there. They still seem weird cars, though.
there was actually a sedan prototype (notchback in aircooled vw parlance) but never made production for whatever reason, the 2 and 4 door wagons looked a lot better, but the weird overhang on the front makes them look awkward, have seen photoshops with the front wheels moved forward a bit and it improved the looks no end.
They were quite advanced for the time however, with electronic fuel injection, and a first for a vw passenger car, a automatic gearbox (not a semi auto as the beetle had)
Even within classic vw circles they aren’t well loved, for a long time they mostly just got raided for the larger capacity type 4 engine to fit in buses and fast vw beetles, and as a consiquence many replacement parts for them are very hard to get.
That overhang – you have to wonder why they did it like that. Interior photos show the front footwells to look cramped with rather a lot of footwell intrusion; those wheels could well have been moved forward. A 250cm wheelbase seems rather short for four and a half metres of car.
Only 10mm longer than the Type 3 wheelbase too. I might guess that the Type 4 structure was derived in part from the Type 3, retaining the firewall-to-wheelarch geometry of the earlier model, so they just added length in front of the wheels to create a larger frunk. The 10mm extra wheelbase was prolly at the rear and related to powertrain packaging.
It’s 100mm longer, (2500mm vs 2400mm), which is a full 4″, not an inconsiderable amount. And it pretty much all went into improving rear seat legroom, which was tight in the Type 3.
The Type 4 structure shares absolutely nothing with the Type 3, whose body still sat on a platform frame like the Beetle. The Type 4 was a fully unitized structure and had McPherson-type struts in the front.
The reason for the long nose was both to increase luggage space as well as to improve safety, with a massively better crumple zone.
The reason why the front wheels aren’t further forward is to improve weight distribution; the long nose increase weight on the front wheels. And it helped with the turning circle. Rear engine cars generally have their front wheels fairly close to the body for this reason. Front engine RWD cars do push the front wheels forward for the exact opposite reason: to reduce the percentage of weight on the front wheels.
When these first hit the streets, my eleven year old self thought they were waay cool! lol
The “yellow/gold”, color was quite the norm at the time.
I frequent the VW shows in the Philly area, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Type 4 at any of them. It’s easier to see a Brasilia or Type 34 than one of these. Most seem to be worth more as a bus engine swap and gas heater donor than as a car.
A friend of mine bought a ’74 412 4dr sedan from a Volkswagon dealership in Madison, Wisconsin- originally named Bruns Garage, Inc. It was yellow with a dark camel interior. Yellow was a common color for these cars. Bruns must have been one of the very earliest VW dealers in the state. The family sold the business in 1977 so the small mid-century modern complex on Madison’s east side no longer exists. Dealership row is now a technology corridor.
The “V dub” dealer, in my old town, that went away ((not too long after “77”)) is a big eyesore now.
Soo sad; still much of my hometown looks so ‘seedy” now.
Our house and street is “straight up” blight. Uggh.
I read somewhere that Australia didn’t get the 411/412 as it would have ended up too expensive in this market to be competitive.
I can’t be certain but I have only ever seen one here on our roads, many years ago. I came imagine too many have imported them. I was surprised that thrre is/was at least one K70 in the country too.
To me, it doesn’t seems much bigger that the Type 3s, and the styling, whilst more awkward that the Type 3, does bear a resemblance..
Apart from the 4 doors on the saloon, a bit more power and updated suspension, one could be forgiven for thinking that there were not many compelling reasons to upgrade from the Type 3, and as the world was moving away ftom rear engines and to some extent even rear wheel drive, it would be a hard sell for buyers looking at other marque’s.
Despite that I am still strangely attracted to this car. The 412 facelift is definitely an improvement. To me, in some colours I find it kind of attractive. They should have made the variant with 4 doors but I suppose even at this time 3 door wagons were still a thing.
The saloon could have been made as a hatchback but I then remember that the Passat fastback sedan was only offered with a hatchback option when it was facelifted. With 2 door they could have offered a slight warmer TS version, but I suppose the upcoming Scirocco would deal with that segment.
My brother briefly role in one overseas in a country where they are originally sold new and he says that the car felt quite solid
Speaking of the Passat, there’s some continuity in the greenhouse styling from the Type 4 fastback sedan to its successor the B1 Passat (sold as the Dasher in America), which continuity then extended further to the B2 Passat (Quantum in America) in its hatchback forms, so one might consider the Type 4 a sort of proto-Passat.
You’ve seen more than I have then! I also thought it looked more like an alternate design for a 1600 rather than a larger car. The photos don’t really show it, but it’s about 300mm longer and 40mm wider.
“The saloon could have been made as a hatchback”
VW toyed with that idea later on, but it was pretty apparent by then that the Type 4 was really just a lost cause:
They were VW’s attempt to move upmarket, not cheap .
Typ III’s had a fully automatic transmission from 1968 .
My mate Cliff was a die hard 411/412 lover, owned several and recently passed away, I onder what happened to his Typ IV’s .
R.I.P. Cliff, you were a great friend for over 50 years .
-Nate
I am one of those crazy guys that appreciated and still appreciate these unloved VWs. I held on to my mom’s ‘73 412 wagon that I helped her make a decision to purchase way back when…late ‘75 as a used car. Restored it back to original specs. I love the thing. Maya Gold Metallic factory original color.
Photo please! The 412s certainly look a lot better than the original. Besides the obvious facelift in front, in sedans the tail lights moved up too. It seemed really unusual for VW to facelift anything, particularly so quickly, but I guess they realized their mistake. According to Wikipedia, the original was done by Pininfarina (!) but I’m guessing with a lot of VW input. The 412 facelift was done by Brooks Stevens.
When I posted my comments I did include a photo but it did not appear. I have to figure out what I did wrong.
For the image to appear in the comments section, it’s got to be Jpeg format and no more than 1800 x 1000 pixels.
” It seemed really unusual for VW to facelift anything, particularly so quickly, …”
They even did the facelift twice. The original Euro version came with oval headlights (see image below). Soon, the swapped to the 4 round headlight face, also known from the US versions. And then came the modified 412 face.
The image shows a rare early 2door 411 sedan.
If the original version really was styled by Pininfarina, he must have had a very, very bad day. Maybe the Bratwurst in the VW canteen was spoiled during one of his visits to Wolfsburg.