This started out as just a quick post of these shots of this fine Belvedere wagon posted by canadiancatgreeen. I quickly opened the ’65 Belvedere brochure at oldcarbrochures.com, and was reminded that the wagon had a 117″ wheelbase whereas the other body styles had a 116″ wheelbase. Hmm. I wonder why. I shouldn’t have.
I always assumed that the 1965 and up B-Body Mopars (Belvedere and Coronet) had identical wheelbases as well as just about identical everything except some exterior skin. Not so.
The 1962 downsized Plymouths and Dodges all had 116″ wheelbases.
The 1963 and ’64 Dodges had a 119″ wb, with its rear axle clearly having been moved back. The wagons kept the same 116″ wb as the ’63-’64 Plymouth, as they shared the same body shell.
In 1965, the B-Bodies were re-positioned as intermediates, and dubbed Dodge Coronet and Plymouth Belvedere. And I always assumed they had the same wheelbase and were otherwise identical under the skin. Not so; the Coronet had a 117″ wb; the Belvedere 116″. But the wagons all had the 116″ wb, as it was still the same shell as before. Was the extra 1″ on the Dodge at the front or rear? Or did it not really exist except in the minds of the marketing folks?
But it all changed some for 1966, along with the slab-sided restyle. Now the wagons for both name plates were all on the same 117″ wb that the Coronet used throughout, while the rest of the Belvederes kept the 116″ wb. Ok.
And this continued on right through 1970, with the Dodges at 117″ and the Plymouths at 116″, except for the wagons.
My guess: they mounted the rear axle 0.51″ further to the rear on the leaf springs of the Dodges, because obviously they shared the same body shells. Or maybe it was this: the Plymouths had precisely 116.49″ of wheelbase, and the Dodges 116.51″ of wheelbase. That is, if the workers were being precise. On a Monday or Friday car, it could well be the opposite.
You got a better explanation?
One explanation for the difference on paper – during the early years of his reign, Townsend tried to re-establish the difference between Plymouth and Dodge that had existed before the advent of the 1960 Dart, and the downsizing of the 1962 line. The goal was to have Dodge better compete with Pontiac. If I recall correctly, the compact Dart and the full-size Dodges also had longer wheelbases than their Plymouth counterparts (at least on paper) during the 1960s.
No doubt the real-world difference in wheelbases could have been achieved in the manners described.
At any rate, potential customers weren’t going to take a tape measure to Plymouth and Dodge intermediates to compare, and most likely magazine reviewers would take Chrysler’s word for it regarding each car’s critical dimensions.
In the strange world that was Chrysler, nothing would surprise me. I guess I would be surprised if the change was where the axles mounted to the springs, because I have never heard anyone mention how you have to be careful buying junkyard components between Plymouth or Dodge. I would love to know what was actually different.
The C body wagons of this era always had longer wheelbases than the Plymouth sedans (and shorter wheelbases than the Chrysler sedans).
Mounting all of the divisions’ wagon bodies on the same wheelbase was a trick that Chrysler had used since 1957, if I recall correctly. It made Plymouth wagons bigger than their “Big Two” competition.
The 57 wagons didn’t all have the same wheelbase. The company’s products, exc Imperial, mixed two dimensions fore and aft of the windshield. All wagons and all other products exc Plymouth used the long body behind the windshield. Chrysler and senior DeSotos were longer in front of the windshield. The results were 126″ wb for Chrysler and senior DeSotos, 122″ wb for Plymouth wagons, Dodge, and junior DeSoto, and 118″ wb for all other Plymouths.
“Or maybe it was this: the Plymouths had precisely 116.49″ of wheelbase, and the Dodges 116.51″ of wheelbase.”
Good one, Paul! Reminds me of the English to metric conversions on some products: Weight: 50 lbs (22.6796 kg).
Well, Dodge did manage to make a special 1965 1/2 122″ Polara for the California Highway Patrol, after they wouldn’t except the standard 121.5″ wb, so there’s clearly some wiggle room.
I think you mean 1962, This is what lead to the creation of the Dodge 880, I believe. The Chrysler Newport body with Dodge front clip. In this case however the Dodge wheelbase was too short for CHP specs, thus the use of the Chrysler body
Or was there a different 1965 reconfiguration that I don’t know about?
I want that GTX, wagon be damned.
Patrick Bedard was a Chrysler engineer at the time and wrote about the death of Plymouth for car and driver. I think he had said the difference was pretty much a marketing ploy to differentiate the two brands and the difference was accomplished by lengthening the shackles to which the springs were mounted.
Seems like this would be easy enough to verify by checking the part numbers of those shackles. If they were, indeed, different, they should have different numbers, no?
Chrysler (Townsend) sure wanted Dodge to at least appear to be a more premium brand as evidenced by the wheelbase difference on the 1970 E-body: the Barracuda was 108″ while the Challenger was 110″. Unlike the meager difference on the earlier B-bodies, I think those two might actually have had different platforms, though.
The Challenger actually was longer than the E bodyBarracuda.
Darts mostly were longer than corresponding Valiants, tho the distinction became blurred as Chrysler progressively eliminated short wheelbase sedans and shared the Duster and Swinger bodies.
AFAIK, it was just the Dart sedans that were slightly longer until ~1973; the Plymouth and Dodge A-body two-doors all rode on the same wheelbase.
The secret is where Chrysler ad men learned their math.
I believe such maths is often used in justifying car purchases…;-)
“Would you like your pizza sliced into six slices or eight?”
“Oh, just six. I couldn’t possibly eat eight.”
One thing rarely mentioned is how Chrysler first coined the term “Boss” to identify the 1968 GTX in their ads. I don’t know what happened for 1969-70, though, since The Boss term for the GTX only seems to appear on boxes of Jo-Han promotional models.
I’m going to guess that Ford managed to scarf the name for their big valve Boss-series engines in 1969, but the Jo-Han model boxes had already been printed and no one really cared all that much about their low visibility. But to anyone whose seen the artwork on those boxes, well, they’re definitely done by the same ad agency that did Plymouth’s op-art cartoon ads of the time.
The shop manual can be a great reference. In the 1965 edition, the following measurements were given :
Plymouth Fury non-wagons :
A – Front clip – 21.53″
B – Distance from front clip to forward rear spring hanger – 53.33″
C – Distance from forward rear spring hanger to the rear, rear spring hanger – 56.93″
Total – 131.79″ – Wheelbase 119″
The A distance is the same for all C body models.
B – All C Body Wagons and Dodge non-wagons – 52.34″
C – All C Body Wagons and Dodge non-wagons- 60.97″
Total – 134.84″ – Wheelbase – 121″
The A distance is the same for all C body models.
B – Chrysler non- Wagon models – 54.34″
C – Chrysler non Wagons models – 60.97″
Total – 136.84″ – Wheelbase – 124″
Starting with Chrysler’s 124″ wheelbase, there is a 2″ difference between Chrysler and the wagon wheelbase. Which places the Wagon wheelbase at 122″.
For 1967 the C body wagons were on a 122″ wheelbase, as were the Dodge non-wagon models.
This juggling of wheelbase lengths bodies dated back to 1933-34 for non-Airflow Mopar models and 1934 for Airflow models.
Bill
Vancouver, BC
Yes, and GMC was calling their larger V-6’s ‘Magnums’ starting in 1966, a year before Dodge adopted the name for their high performance V-8’s.
That wagon is a real beauty…all Engel….
Whatever the wheelbase length actually was; these Mopar intermediate station wagons were HUGE inside when compared to the same year GM or FoMoCo models. The extra interior space was immediately noticeable when entering and sitting down.
If equipped with Mopar’s 383 V8/3 speed “Automotive Reference Standard” Torqueflite automatic transmission powertrain; these wagons hauled azz as well and people and cargo.
Even the 318 Mopar engine would run off and leave a 283/PG Chevelle or a 289/Cruise-o-matic Ford Fairlaine.
All I know is : this wagon is beautiful .
-Nate
I agree with the comments on the inside of the B body cars, especially the wagons. The Olds and Buick intermediates had a wagon with an extended wheelbase (116″ to 121″) with a raised roof line. It did not seem any bigger once you were inside, although.you had more headroom in the rear. But that was about it.
Had a friend with an Olds Vista wagon and another with an early 1970’s Satellite Regent wagon. The Plymouth had more room than the Olds in all seats. Plenty of room for six. .
And the C body wagon was even bigger. Never sat in a C body wagon though.
Maybe the Plymouth and Dodge teams worked on different floors.