Recently a reader noticed some comments I’d made about GM’s 4L60E transmissions – specifically, how they don’t like to hold together later in life, especially when behind V8s and/or when used for towing. An email conversation ensued, with both of us sharing our experiences.
As many of you already know, I’ve had to replace more 4L60E’s than I care to recall. This was the comment that started it all, which followed an article involving Suburbans:
In full-size trucks they’re just downright fragile late in life, and especially when they’ve been towed with. Great for S10s and mild B/F body cars, not so much for C/K trucks and Express/Savana vans, even less so with an even somewhat gutsy V8.
Very common to see them fail before 200K. My father has been particularly unlucky; his ’96 Z71 extended cab 4×4 has 275,000 miles, is still on the (very peppy) original engine, but just suffered the failure of its FOURTH tranny! Despite proper care and relatively gentle use, he has yet to get one that’s lasted more than three years.
Half-ton Suburbans all had them in the ’90s, and up into the early 2000s.
I held out for a 3/4 ton or bigger Suburban, since I tow (6000-8000lbs) frequently and therefore insist on a 4L80E. Those trannies are comparatively bullet-proof.
Of all the tranny swaps I’ve done in my adult life (at least a dozen), better than 2/3 have been 4L60Es. The 4L80Es, on the other hand, are much stouter – only ever had one of those begin to fail, in my former ’94 K2500 Suburban. Probably could have been saved (suspect bad solenoid), but rust was also a major factor… traded it straight-up for a Durango and a ’71 Ventura, to a guy who “had to have it!”.
Too bad PCM software differences prevent plug-and-play swapping of the two models. If I was equipped to re-flash those computers, I’d have upgraded at least two of my vehicles with ’80Es by now.
Turned out we’d both experienced these sorts of troubles, which gave him confirmation in resolving to check them carefully before any future purchase of a truck so equipped.
Then the conversation turned – exactly 90 degrees, in fact. He wanted to talk about GM’s transverse trannies; which were preferable, which were to be avoided.
FWD GM transmissions aren’t really my strong suit. I know they went through various revisions, but couldn’t list them all. Overdrive was added in the late eighties, electronic control in the early 90s, there were new designs to coincide with the Series II motors in the mid-90s, there were beefed-up versions to go with the supercharged motors, etc.
It’s not often that I find them dead or dying. But it seems like those which have been, could be split into two groups:
1) 4T60 hooked to an LN3. I don’t know whether it’s just coincidence, but I’ve seen several of them have issues at low miles, with no apparent reason for it. Noteworthy examples: a really nice ’92 Toronado with 120K and no third or fourth; and even my faux Touring Sedan, which has a mere 94K and has been guilty of hard downshifts and the occasional slippage under hard acceleration (fluid/filter change stopped the slipping, but didn’t completely resolve the hard shifts).
2) 4T65E-HD hooked to an L67. This one’s kind of a no-brainer: people drive their supercharged cars like it’s some combination of a NASCAR race and a stoplight drag contest, and the trannies won’t tolerate it. From low-mile Regal GSes with torque converter issues, to one particularly memorable GTP that had just broken 100K miles with the pump on its last leg, those trannies just weren’t quite HD enough for the lead-footed.
Other than those two examples, I see many others that just seem to go forever. Or rather, until someone pops a head gasket (especially 3.1/3.4), which is usually what seems to do these cars in.
But I’m no expert on the “wrong-way drive” cars, having owned mostly RWD vehicles – so having said my small piece, I now defer to the commentariat.
How about you? What’s been your experiences with the General’s transaxles?
Ive had 2 gm cars both with the 4t60e.. A quad 4 achieva and 94 3800 powered regal sedan. I liked the tranny for its quick grip and downshifts. It never felt slushboxy in either application. That being said it was great for the regal but gm programmed it to shift at the same speeds in the 4 banger achieva. It was programmed to upshift as fast as possible and would be in 4th by 45 mph in casual driving. This was fine with the torque of the 3800 but with the quad 4 it would buck like a kid learning stick shift. Anyways cuz gm was cheap with their programming the Buicks tranny ran past 200k problem free (never died car was hit) while the achieva ate its tranny at 121k.
The 4L60E in the Olds Bravada is the stuff of forum legend. Bought one and drove it 10miles before the light came on. Code said slipping. Rebuilt and the electronics killed the rebuild when the mechanic was checking it out. Selected 2 gears at once. Had a 700r4 in an S10 that I hated to let go. Very durable.
Before they had overdrive I had a TH350 that I thought was great. Was told the TH400 was virtually unkillable. Think the general did well with his trannies till they added the OD. Of course they had to if they wanted to get by CAFE.
The trannie that I want to kill someone over is the CVT in my cube. My first cube was a six speed and I intended to add a hitch and avoid a second vehicle. It was very functional. On this one the CVT warranty will be voided with even a hitch luggage rack. Worthless except for being a people mover which it does quite well.
My sole GM sidewinder experience is with the Saturn TAAT which is surprisingly tough and astonishingly easy to fix. Its only major malady is “reverse slam” caused by crud building up in the valve body. Milder cases are cured by a fluid and filter change (dead easy) followed by 30 minutes of idling in reverse. Serious cases involve a valve body swap which can be done from above in your driveway by removing the air box and battery tray.
I’ve tried to kill the TH-125 in my 86 Pontiac 6000-STE, it never whimpered, even when faced with a 7,000 rpm upshift (it failed to upshift for some reason, and will NOT upshift past 6,000).
The TH-350 in my 76 Chevelle died at 130,000 miles due to a blown vacuum modulator, but its been solid for 20 years now even though the car has been long gone – the trans lives on in my 77 Chevelle and aside from a noise in the 1-2 shift, its still strong as ever with 200,000+ miles on it. The original TH-350 in my 77 died from a stuck govenor due to clogged filter and black as night fluid.
I’ve got a 700-R4 to swap into the 77 that will most likely need a rebuild before I do that.
The only GM car we’ve had that had multiple failures was the TH-200C in the 84 Olds Delta 88 my parents bought. It needed 3 transmissions in 120,000 miles.
I’d think an STE tranny would be nearly impossible to find a replacement for. Don’t think I’ve ever seen one in person.
I’m a bit too young to say the same, but I know my old man received more than one free TH400 back in the day that was rejected as failed, but in reality only needed a vacuum modulator. He also rebuilt several of them, in his non-heated, poorly lit, dirt-floored garage. I’ve got it easy by comparison (and he doesn’t even have to tell me so!).
If 4L60Es are my most commonly replaced tranny, TH200s are second. Did no less than three of them in my first car (an ’85 Regal, originally Buick 3.8, later Olds 307). Too bad I didn’t realize at the time what I know now: that the ubiquitous TH350 is an easy replacement.
After the second (of four total) trannies failed in that Buick, I actually went out and bought an ’87 Estate Wagon specifically for its transmission, because I though that only a “Metric” tranny replaced a “Metric” tranny. After crushing the wagon (another youthful indiscretion ) I essentially had a free transmission. Too bad it only lasted a month before reverse went out.
My current Regal came with a blown-up motor and a seemingly okay TH200C. I didn’t even waste any time on it – went straight out of the car and onto craigslist.
I’ve rebuilt several motors over the years, but have never rebuilt a transmission. It’s one of those skills I really need to learn and put to use. Soon there will be a “modular” 4L60E with no 3rd/4th sitting on my shelf; that’ll likely get to be my guinea pig.
Is there anything specific to the STE transmission that would make any other THM125 incompatible? There are likely still millions of those floating around. Now if it was the later AWD THM125 tranny, that would be a different story! Although even those have a full page of results on car-part.com – which is completely shocking.
I think he might be talking about the AWD, though that is still surprisingly easy to find, I’m surprised.
Yup, that’s what I meant. Little did I realize that AWD didn’t come along until ’88 (until looking it up just now).
the one in my was just FWD, so any old TH-125 would fit in, the 86 STE was calibrated to shift hard on the 1-2 shift and butter smooth on the 2-3 shift. It also had a 3.18 final drive over the 2.84 final drive of the other ones.
It’d bang into second and you’d never notice the shift to 3rd or the TCC lockup.
99 Olds Cutlass with 4T40E and 3.1 V6. 220k miles. Transmission is fine–not any problems at all. I’ve not had it since new so I don’t know if its ever been out.
The 3.1 V6 has lower intake manifold gasket problems, NOT head gasket problems. Yes, that was a problem, however cause it was a problem it was a freebie car to me.
Prior car was a Celebrity with an Iron Duke 4 and Turbo Hydramatic 125, aka 3T40. Junked at 215k miles, but the drivetrain was still good. The lockup torque converter solenoid on those transmissions would go bad and it was a PIA to replace (had to drop transmission a little in the GM A bodies), but very easy to unplug. It hurt mileage a little.
I have heard that the traverse trans for the Northstar application is quite robust but the 5.3V8 in W-body Impala SS, Grand Prix GXP, and Lacrosse Super tended to live short brutish lives. Although perhaps the true difference is the clientele of those cars.
Quite possible. But then, it’s tough to log many tranny problems when the associated motors’ head gaskets are so eager to fail!
The Northstar cars had the 4T80E not the 4T65HD like the 5.3 powered cars.
The 4T80 is a different animal with some fancy things like dry sump lubrication. Its more like a transverse version of the TH400 (4L80).
From what I’ve heard the 5.3 powered cars almost have their transmissions replaces as part of regular maintenance like a timing belt change.
Never had a “real” GM or an automatic anything, but I never had an issue with the 5-speed in my ’92 Metro, although every Sprint I’d ever test drove jumped out of gear under acceleration. Must’ve beefed something up along with the ’89 restyle/rebrand.
Unlike the Tercel that replaced it whose 2nd gear syncros didn’t like cold mornings in their old age. That’s how I learned to double clutch.
I’ve owned a lot of transverse GM transmissions. In fact it is possible that I’ve owned every transverse transmission that GM ever sold in the US.
Anyway, I’ve suffered many GM engines failures, but never a GM transmission failure. Even when I had a fairly modified Grand Prix GTP.
I’ve done some fluid/filter changes to help smooth things out, but they have been fairly solid overall- never really worried about them. Sorry I can’t be of much service other than to say that.
Right now I’ve got an F7 (which I’ve heard is not possible to rebuild) hooked up to a Cadillac 4.5, a 4T60 hooked up to a LN3, and a 4T60E-HD with a Series I L67.
Allante?
I think it is more or less the 4L60 with a viscous clutch converter and electronic controls before it became the norm. Could be wrong though.
I just bought a beater ’98 LeSabre a few months ago with the 3800 and 4T60-E. 135k miles right now and hopefully it’ll last many more, but I have a feeling that’s not gonna happen. The previous owner overfilled it with transmission fluid at some point and it already slips a little if you get on it too hard. If I have to replace it with a junkyard transmission eventually, no big deal – the car only cost 200 bucks. I might even buy one in advance and rebuild it, since that’s something I’ve always wanted to learn how to do. (EDIT: apparently me and Keith are on the same wavelength – didn’t see his reply to Texan01 before I wrote this!)
I had an 02 Tahoe with the 5.3 and 4L60E. the original owners used it as a tow vehicle, but carfax showed regular dealer servicing. Anyway, the original trans conked out at the 130k mark.
They should’ve put the 80e in all of these, but I know, the 60 is…cheaper.
Thanks again, GM beancounters of yore.
As much as I like the reliability of the 4L80E, I’m not sure I’d want it in a daily driver. They’re a big beast with lower gearing and higher shift points – great for towing, not so great for coasting empty down the highway.
If the 4L60E (and its non-electronic forerunner, the 700R4) was in fact a proper successor to the nice, reliable TH350 that it replaced, I’d have no issue with it. Likewise, if I never kept a vehicle past 5 years/100K miles, I’d probably also think it was great.
But unfortunately, a Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban/other typical GM consumer truck with 200K miles and its original tranny, is usually more like a headache waiting to happen.
Last week I actually turned down a ’99 Yukon Denali, running and driving, for $1000. Why? 220K, 350, receiver hitch, original transmission. May as well replace/rebuild it as soon as I got it home!
Yeah, I don’t disagree with you at all. I thought that car would be stout and reliable, but it wasn’t. To make matters worse, I had to replace defective cats they put on all 02’s (fortunately I went the junkyard route instead of the $1700-2100 dealer installed rip-offs.
But also, mine had Autoride, the rear air suspension. Everything I read in the forums led me to believe that by 150k miles you will have a $2500 expense right there. And don’t think you can save money by switching to conventional springs, that costs just about as much to do and is a big pain in the a**.
Instead, I just decided to dump it rather than face more and more expensive problems. Engine ran fine though…
Thye trick is to avoid east west mounted 3800s the GM trannys in rwd cars last better and drive better
Bryce, most of the 3800/auto Holdens used the 4L60E – the transmission that everyone in the US has problems with. Holden even used that behind the V8s until the 5-speed autos came out. The road conditions in America are just too extreme. Meanwhile, the 4T60-E (the transverse, front-wheel-drive, one) seems to be a paragon of reliability. I can vouch for this as well. It seems like most 4L60s are good for a maximum of 150-160k miles or so, even with all the proper maintenance and the daintiest foot possible.
I don’t have any personal experience with the 4L60E, but I would assume that it is more reliable in, say, a GTO compared to a Suburban regularly towing 6000lbs.
Applications where a 4L60E seems to last forever: 4-cylinder S10s, V6 Camaros/Firebirds, 2WD V6 trucks that never tow anything, any vehicle with no hitch and an elderly or conservative driver.
Applications where their replacement is practically a maintenance item: Any V8-powered 4WD truck, 4WD S10 Blazer/Jimmy with high miles, anything with a hitch, LT1 Caprices with lead-footed drivers, V8 Camaros/Firebirds with lead-footed drivers.
At least in the case of Caprices, the dual exhaust is just wide enough to permit sneaking the bellhousing between the cats 😛
That’s true, actually… I had forgotten that this is the same transmission in V6 F-bodies and I can’t recall ever seeing one of those that had gone kaplooey (despite often being owned by kids who trashed them). My dad did manage to kill a 4L60E at 130k miles in a SWB Astro that rarely ever hauled anything but himself. He does have a tendency to annihilate pretty much everything he drives, though!
Regular S-10s are something of a rarity in my part of the world; most are V6/4WD Blazers/Jimmys, which often have blown transmissions. For whatever reason the Ford Ranger and Japanese small pickups were always infinitely more common. Not that many people regularly tow stuff here either, but I think just the heat from normally heavy traffic/constant stop-and-go driving kills them in the fullsize trucks and (to a lesser degree) B-bodies, which are surprisingly popular here. Most people say that the Ford 4R70W is a near-indestructible transmission in the Panther cars, but all the cabbies I talk to (and I always ask) say that they’re only good for 100-150k as well – which certainly doesn’t appear to be the norm elsewhere.
FWIW, I don’t think it’s so bad having to replace an automatic transmission at 150k miles (or again at 250k) if the rest of the car is still in good shape. Personally, I’d almost always rather have a manual transmission, but I do appreciate good automatics and think they’re preferable in certain applications. Also, the newer, faster shifting, 5-speed (and up) auto transaxles are a huge upgrade, in terms of driving enjoyment, compared to the 3- and 4-speeds that had been common behind FWD four-cylinders up until the last decade. I rented a 6T40E/Ecotec 2010 Malibu a couple years ago and it was really an outstanding car in every way. I was extremely impressed considering that the most recent GM FWDer I had driven before that was a 4-speed auto. It was even smoother and more willing than the V6 LeSabre I have now. Had I grown up with these instead of Iron Duke/Chevy OHV 4-cyl/THM125 cars, I may not be such a stickler for third pedals.
4L60E in my ’95 Blazer- the bastard year of any Blazer IMO. Went thru 2 units in under 20000 miles. Try finding a replacement, ’94 wont work bc of the computer, ’96 wont work because of the bellhousing.
This engineer still questions just what the hell GM Engineering was smoking when they designed that vehicle…
Even rebuilt these trannies were nothing more than boat anchors, and lousy ones at that too! 🙂
400,000 kms one lasted for me maybe I got lucky it was still working when I sold the car and i got it with 250 on it and just changed the fluid twice.
The four-speed manual Saginaw in my Vega was pretty good. Does that count?
The Saginaw 4 speed used in ’73 and later Vegas was the same one used in Camaros and Novas with small V-8s. It wasn’t as strong as a T-10 or a Muncie but it was OK for general use behind a lot more than a Vega 2.3. I grabbed every one I could get my hands on in my junkyard prowling days. Usually less than $100.00. You had to act fast though, lots of guys knew this little “secret”.
Interesting, as my Vega was a ’71. Definitely a four speed (I replaced it once because pranksters at high school drained all the oil out of it when it was my Dad’s – it ran quite a long time with no oil!).
That was an Opel sourced box if I recall correctly. Not as strong but nicer to shift. The Saginaw in later Vegas was very stiff and truck-like in comparison. I don’t know why GM made the change in ’73.
I’m reading all this with some interest. In my fleet manager days I probably operated 200 GM trucks with 4L60Es in them over a dozen years. Most were 4.3 4×2 half tons, some were 4.8s and there were even a few 3/4 tons with 5.3s (ex-Budget rentals, a bad move by a predecessor). These things were regularly maintained but worked like rented mules. We generally ran them 325,000 to 350,000 km. I’d be surprised if we replaced half a dozen in all that time. By comparison the “Ram tough” Dodges generally expired before the 100,000 km mark in exactly the same application. Fords were way better than Dodges but still not as good as the GM units as far as transmissions go. What the heck are you guys doing with these things?
Towing, I’d guess.
Anyone who tows in overdrive with a 4L60E is basically giving it the kiss of death.
Learned that the hard way: towed a relatively light (1500lbs at worst) boat 60 miles behind my ’98 C1500 (4.3/2WD/4L60E/just under 200K miles at the time). It had never been towed with prior. Halfway home the hard shifts began, and continually worsened until it finally let go two years later.
So I learned never to tow in overdrive. Later, I got my 2003 Silverado, set up exactly the same way. Bought a 2000lb tandem trailer around Halloween. Used it behind the Silverado, always in third, Tow/Haul on. Loaded it was more like 6000. Four or so hauls a month, maybe 125 miles per haul – bands were shot by Christmas.
So I learned not to tow with a 4L60E in general. Now the trailer lives behind my ’97 C3500 (350/2WD/4L80E/225K), which has hauled it many thousands of miles in the past year with zero complaints.
The freak of the lot? My former ’94 G20, a 3/4 ton panel van with a 350 and a 4L60E. Got it with 100K miles, sold it at 120K. Bought it for next to nothing to use as my designated tow vehicle, in hopes of keeping the C1500 hitch-free after the boat incident.
It spent the majority of those miles towing between 4000-8000lbs, always in third, and never winced. (Neither did the motor, or anything else on it – short of oil changes I rarely ever popped the hood!)
Towing in OD will do it alright, the biggest unit we tow with a half ton is 4000 lbs and most of the crews know to stay out of OD when towing. It’s always amazed me how many people just stick an automatic in “D” and forget it. I think GM created some of the problem with the tow/haul button where the OD lockout should be though.
Thinking about it though, we did get a batch of ’09 and ’10 model year 4L60Es that had early torque converter failures, but it’s a known problem and we caught them all before they self destructed the transmissions. All on warranty too. Supplier issue I was told. I’m kind of sorry to see the 4.8/4L60E combo gone, we had good luck with it over the years.
We haven’t had a GM 6 speed blow up yet, and they’re all off warranty now so I’ve got my fingers crossed….
Dodge trucks had awful transmissions and still do. Any application where anything hard is done toasts them in no time flat. In my Mopar days, we did loads of them.
I have absolutely nothing good to say about Dodge trucks. I gave up even trying them after the last (2008) batch. They seem to be the last bastion of old school Detroit thinking, which was build ’em to make the warranty period and then you can live on parts and service. Steering components, differentials, transmissions, seats, electrical, you name it it’ll fail just after the warranty. Not that the warranty is worth a damn.
People who drive 20,000 km a year don’t find all this out until it’s an old truck I guess, which explains why they sell well. Professional operators know better and that’s why you don’t see many fleets running them.
“They seem to be the last bastion of old school Detroit thinking, ”
except it was Daimler calling those shots. the nazis had to make Chrysler vehicles as cheap and miserable as possible to protect the prestige of their precious Mercedes-Benz. Oh, and you had Joachim Eberhardt ordering the production of 10 times as many vehicles as they could sell.
Daimler”Chrysler” is as about a textbook example of malicious mismanagement as you’re probably ever going to find.
“They seem to be the last bastion of old school Detroit thinking”
No, Chrysler Corp. ha since the early 90s reminded me more and more of the European way of thinking.
Take the Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 vs the Chevrolet Blazer S-10 (1993 or so as an example.
The Jeep looks good, it has tons of power, it has tons of equipment, it has tons of eletronics and failures to it, is lacks ride comfort, it’s noisy and it rust pretty bad. The engine lasts, so do the trans, but the front and rear axels are pretty thin. And the steering of these Jeeps are awful.
The blazer? It’s looks is old, it’s a body on frame construction, it does not have all the Jeeps equipment, it’s lacks the power, but it has w way better ride, comfort and ar more quiet at road speeds. The steering is better, and actually, everything you don’t se is better with the Blazer than the Jeep. Everything you see it gearter on the Jeep. Much like the European cars. In Europe it’s more important that the materials on the wiper switch are of high quality than it is for the wiper to actually work.
As far as the trans go, the are pretty even, but Dodge trucks have awful trans. Chrysler minivan? Don’t get me started.
Ah yes, those European cars and their famously poor ride quality… driving a Peugeot is like having a dildo jackhammered into your rectum**.
Do you guys get many of these trucks over there in Norway? S-10 Blazers had many virtues: cheapness, durability and good power from the V6, but I find this to be a very strange comment. The ZJ Grand Cherokee was a fairly simple vehicle for that era, but in most ways much more refined and pleasant than an S-10 – which was really more a competitor of the XJ (non-Grand) Cherokee. You could equip a Blazer with all of the same electronic gizmos a GC could have (or buy an Oldsmobile Bravada with them standard), and get a fairly plain Grand Cherokee if you wanted it. I think you could even still get manual windows/locks on the early ones, and a manual transmission too. The Jeep 4WD systems were all mechanical and it used live axles at the front and rear. Tons of people do fairly hardcore off-roading with these stock pieces, they’re extremely sturdy for this weight class. Maybe you’re thinking of the viscous coupling in the AWD version? That’s a known headache, but not all ZJs had that transfer case. The inline six and V8s were both evolutions of designs from the 60s, so that was pretty simple and durable stuff too. Chrysler was notorious for quirky chassis electronics at that time (and still is, unfortunately), but since the Grand Cherokee wasn’t all that different from the XJ, it didn’t really have that many problems. The ride quality is probably a wash, Jeeps have always ridden fairly harsh, but I’ve always thought XJs and ZJs were amongst the best handling SUVs (out of legit SUVs, anyway).
**=Obvious sarcasm.
Answer to Sean Cornelis (the post under):
Well, you could fint some European cars today with a comfortable ride, but none of them could match a 70s Lincoln Continental og a B/C/D body 77-96. Todays Peugeot are harsh riding like it’s German competitors. Peugeot 508 for an example rides quite harsh.
But, The Grand Cherokee and the Blazer S-10 is not well riding like a car. But the Blazer has the better ride, and GC’s live axels are fine outside the road, but it is very harsh riding on the road.
These old Jeeps were actually pretty good when it comes to reliability (engine,trans etc.), but the Blazer is better. If you can find a Grand Cherokee V8 withouth a noisy rear axle, tell me. If you could find a Grand Cherokee without rattles and noises when you ride over bumps, tell me. If you can find a GC without new bushings and ball joints in the front suspension, give me a call. If you’ll see a GC from this era without rust lower half of the body I will be suprised.The engines, however, is pretty good, exept for the absolutely horribe 2,5 diesel engine. The problems with the Blazer is the electronic shifting 4WD, the electronic instrument cluster and that’s about it. the front inner fenders and the lower front doors rusts.
Yes you could order these trucks with different options, but i Norway GC was sold as a Laredo, og mostly Limited editions with all options you could get. And some of the options you couldn’t get in a 93 Blazer S-10. Example, electronic climate controll, remote keyless entry, power seats both sides, headrests in the back, trip computer, radio/CD, and so on. Blazer S-10 was i Norway sold with about every options they could get.
But, these old trucks where very popular, and the Jeeps had the batter sales management in Norway and sold more cars. Actually Jeep and Chrysler from the 90s are still often to se on the road over here.
My first police car was a 96 Caprice with the LT1. Im not sure if it was a 4L60 or 80 but it ate a transmission every 20K miles. Fun car otherwise though.
Old school, I have had and know of many Turbo 350s and 400s that have gone 200K miles with nothing other than basic service and fluid changes.
+1 and +1.
One of these days I need to do a COAL on my former Caprice. 9C1 (ex-MN State Patrol slicktop), 100K miles, LT1, Purple Pearl Metallic paint, immaculate gray cloth, and service records to prove it ate trannies for breakfast (including the one that was in it when I bought it).
And yes, I have no gripes with TH350s. Have one right now in a van that’s covered 245K miles and is still working great. Likewise, TH400s seem mighty robust to me.
All the GM four speed stuff was crap in a Caprice and especially in cop cars. In our ex-police taxis we always replaced a four speed with a THM350. They were good for about 200,000 km in taxi work and only cost us $1000 installed.
Contrary to what so many think, rebuilding trannies isn’t that hard at all. We did our own and made loads on it.
+1
Transmissions are the complicated things people make them out to be (other than maybe the valvebody passages)
At first I was willing to chock up the Caprice transmission issues to my being a young rookie with ‘spirited’ driving habits but I don’t think I ever saw a 90s-era 9C1 Caprice last more than 50K on its OE transmission. From what I understand, it wasn’t the internal components that made them bad transmissions, they just didn’t have adequate cooling. Ditto for the 90s-era Chrysler A500s/518s.
I agree on the TH200s too. I have a 70K mile 1982 Olds Delta 88 with a 307/TH200 and its starting to slip on the 2-3 shift. When I can get to it, it will be replaced with a TH350.
Seem to recall a fleet manager once telling me that many of the tranny problems in 9C1 Caprices and SSV Tahoes could be attributed to a combination of overheating, and the pump being starved for fluid during hard cornering. Their solution? Add an additional cooler, and switch to the “deep” pan.
The additional cooler is probably a good idea. I added one from a Suburban to my ’98 C1500, but with no way of measuring tranny fluid temps it was impossible to know whether it helped or not.
As for the different pan? I generally save the “deep” pans whenever I find them, mostly because the later ones had a removable drain plug. Their effectiveness in promoting transmission longevity is, however, still unknown to me.
I had a 91 Caprice 9C1 with the L05, not as powerful as the LT1 cars but it still killed the first 4L60 (aka 700R4) within 90K. I bought a used one to throw in on the cheap and that didn’t last long either. I sold it out of frustration but wish I had kept it to fix right. I learned later those 4 speeds required good TV cable adjustment to last, I don’t remember spending much time adjusting that cable during my winter garage floor thrash.
I haven’t had much luck with Turbo 350’s either, went through two in a Nova with a mild 350. Staying away from mysterious used transmissions is probably the real lesson here.
I’ve only had one complete transmission failure, the TH350 in my ’77 Silverado croaked at about 130k. Way back in ’84 I bought a ’74 Buick Century Luxus coupe that had no reverse or third at 119K. The only FWD GM vehicles I owned were an ’86 Nova-rolla with an auto (hated that car) and an ’89 Sedan DeVille that gave me no trouble at all and shifted great at 100k when I traded it in on my ’90 Mark VII.
Three 4T40 units in three separate cars. The first two were used for towing. Both of these were retired to Mr. Wrecker, but with good transmissions. One was for rust out (’83 Cutlass Ciera 2.8) one for general old age (91 Buick Century Wagon 3.3). Both were north of 300.000 km. The third one is still in service (2000 Saturn LW-1). I have never had an AT give me any trouble on any car. The majority of my cars have had MT’s and these have never given any trouble except for clutches and release bearings. The AT’s typically get fluid changes every 60,000 km.
I had three Olds 98s (1988 & ’89) all with the 3.8 and whatever transmission they were hooked up to. No problems. On my ’88 Touring Sedan I would have to have one or more engine mounts replaced on a yearly basis. This was my long distance cruiser and I didn’t abuse it.
My 1994 Cad STS spit up its transmission at about 96,000 mi. That’s why I now drive a Subaru.
Only tranny problem I’ve had with a GM RWD car was the “switch pitch” TH400 on my 1966 Cadillac FWB. But that car had been run hard and put away wet so it didn’t come as surprise.
The tranny on my 1989 Pontiac 6000LE was a different story. The car had a 2.8 v6 driven gently during all of it’s life (under 60k miles). One day it dumped all the fluid through the D/S shaft housing. We removed the shaft and could see the fluid flowing out as we poured more ATF in to it. When full it would shift just fine but since it couldn’t hold the fluid it was a short drive.
Ever since then I’ve stayed away from GM FWD cars.
Had an ’86 Grand Am that did this. I remember being on a long trip with no money and having to stop every 20-30 miles or so to put tranny fluid in it. To this day, I can’t believe I got there..but I was young and foolish
I had a (I think) 4L60E in my beater 1990 Ciera 3.3 litre. By the look of it, it wasn’t the first one, either. The transmission in this car was great; good, solid shifts and quick downshifts. It didn’t race for high gear like modern stuff does, either.
That Ciera was such a cool car in its way. The powertrain was classic GM, loads of torque backed up with an excellent automatic. The whole was classic GM really.
There are certain things GM does very well – so well in fact that it makes all their lesser efforts seem that much more infuriating. Once the Buick V6 gained port fuel injection it became a gem of an engine, one of the all-time American greats. FWD A-bodies were living museum pieces from about 1987 onwards, but I think that was also what made them appealing. It’s not like GM wasn’t offering a newer, more competitive, midsize car (W-body), and by the time the 90s rolled around the Ciera and Century had become the exclusive domain of people who wanted nothing but incredibly simple and proven no-frills transportation. I don’t see any harm in that, although I know the press (aside from CR) killed them for it. Maybe if they had actually marketed the cars like that, as some Japanese and European manufacturers have done with their outgoing models… I dunno – but anyway, I think they got a somewhat unfair rap. The combination of 3.8 or 3300 and four smooth-shifting forward gears in a car the size of an A-body was a winner. It’s too bad the technology wasn’t quite there yet when the platform launched in 1981 – it would have been the best car of it’s type on the market, at that time, by far.
I agree. In my opinion GM have made som of the best automobiles, and some of the worst in terms of reliability. Some of the best was like these A-body with the Buick-engines, or the B/C -body from 1977. But they even made the Cadillac C-body to a nightmare from 1982-1985 with the HT4100 engine.
Some of the worst might be the X-body 80-85 ? But I think the TH125 trans was a good one, or?
2 things:
1) I’m surprised to hear there’s such a big difference between the 4L60E and the TH350. I thought they were basically the same trans with 1 additional gear and the tow/haul mode. No? And the 80E is the TH400?
2) the thing I like best about the 80E is the sound. I’m talking about the trans whine heard while in 1st gear. Inside the car or out (if one passes you by), you can hear the same transmission whine that virtually all GM big cars had in the 60s and 70s. Pretty cool.
1) Yeah, pretty much. It’s a bit of an over simplification but close enough. Now, as it was then, if you ask a 4L60E to do something it wasn’t designed to do it will fail. Turbo 350s did the same thing. I believe the addition of OD and a lockup converter combined with drivers who just put it in “D” and ignore the constant shifting and lock/unlock cycles are a big part of the problems some people have.
That’ll kill any transmission eventually.
2) I know what you mean about the sound. My buddy’s plain jane 3/4 ton has the 6.0 with a 4L80E. It sounds and feels just like the 325 horse 396/TH400 in my old ’65 Impala.
I know the TH350 and TH700-R4 share some design aspects, but I don’t know exactly how much. Keep in mind when GM deisgned these transmissions in the early 80’s, they were focused on improving fuel economy and most engines were very low powered. This resulted in them attempting to reduce as much parasitic loss, and was often done with lightweight weaker parts. This concept also resulted in the development of other poor transmission like the TH200 or the TH250 in the late 1970’s to replace the reliable TH350.
The TH400 and 4L80 share some design aspects too. Unkile the TH350/TH700-R4, the TH400 and 4L80 share all three first gear ratios. This transmission is generally only used in 3/4 ton and greater vehicles. So fuel economy was not a concern and internal parts are more robust. The old TH400 was known to to have much more parasitic loss than GM’s smaller transmissions.
I have been lucky in that I have never had any GM transmission fail on me. I have owned a slew of TH350’s, TH400’s TH700-R4’s, TH200-4R’s and 4L60E’s all to high mileages with no failures. I haven’t owned any GM FWD transmissions though. My old Surburban made it to 250K with all original drivetrain when I sold it. I typically serviced the transmission about every 20K miles, and it still seemed to run fine when I sold the truck. I figured it was cheap insurance. Once I got over 200K miles I always felt like I was on borrowed time. My old truck saw some towing but nothing overly heavy. My buddies K1500 of the same vintage went well over 250K on the orginal 4L60E too. His truck was lifted and towed large trailers fairly often. He even overheated it once, but that didn’t kill it.
I recall working at GM in the 90’s early 2000’s that the early 4L60E’s (1993-94) seemed to be more robust, but they got cheaper and more failure prone with time, Maybe it was just the horsepower increase, but that was my perception. We probably did more 4L60 swaps than any other transmission, but we still did quite a few 4T60E’s too.
When I collected 90’s B bodies I heard the same thing. ’94’s were best and didn’t fail as much as the later ones.
I always suspected the horsepower increase had something to do with it. The floodgates opened after the new-for-’96 truck motors had been out in the wild for a while. Coincidence?
GM trucks were still running TBI motors in ’95, but yet my ’95 9C1 (and many others like it) were eating trannies anyways. Hotter motors = shorter 4L60E lifecycles.
Also, if you ever happen to find yourself in need of a 4L60E for, say, your ’95 B-body and Hollander (or your favorite equivalent reference) tells you nothing but another ’95 B-body can provide a replacement – don’t worry, you can make substitutions if you know what to do.
This PDF is mighty helpful: http://www.longroof.info/pdf/4L60E_swapguide.pdf
Don’t be afraid to mix and match, so long as you’re mindful of the mounting and (especially) electrical differences.
Take it from someone who DDs a 2003 2WD Silverado with its original 4.3 and a 4L60E out of an ’02 Astro; has put multiple ’98+ 4L60Es into ’96 and ’97 GM trucks; took a 4L60E from a 1996 Express van with a 350, changed its harness, and put it in a ’95 B-body; and (somewhat related) just finished mating a 4L80E to a 5.3 V8 🙂
Things you should familiarize yourself with before swapping: one-piece vs. two-piece cases, PWM and its various incarnations, EC3 lockup strategy and its related consequences.
My rule of thumb: always use your used tranny with an engine that is either equal to or lesser than that what it originally was hooked to. For example, a tranny that shipped behind a 4.3 should theoretically function as normal behind a 350 – but I’d have serious doubts about its long-term durability. They’re feeble enough as-is… why push your luck?
Also, forget about putting a 4WD tranny into a 2WD vehicle, or vice versa – tailshaft lengths differ, and making the necessary changes requires a complete teardown.
“Note to self: Don’t buy anything GM with an automatic.”
Now we need a similar article on Ford and Chrysler, followed by the Japanese and European makes.
I don’t know that I’d go that far. Just like anything, you gotta know what to look for.
I have owned a lot of GM cars with automatic trans.
The TH400 is the best in terms of shifting quality and reliability. But i have rebuilded the TH400 in my 67 Riviera. But that’s because of abuse driving. My 77 Cadillac has over 250.000 miles on it’s original TH400.
I have owned TH700R4 in two Blazers, both with 160.000-180.000 miles on them with the original trans, hitch and digital instruments that didn’t work 🙂
The TH700R4 is a good transmission, but in bigger cars than the Blazer S-10, it works very hard, get very warm, and the oil is overheating and loses it’s lubricating. Then the trans works fine for a time, and then it’s “destroing it self.” So it’s not recommended in Suburbans, Tahoes and pickups if you ask me.
I have owned a 1989 Caprice with the TH2004R, “metric” with a hitch and 305 TBI engine.The best car I’ve ever owned, and the TH2004R are better after 1986.
In general the 3-speed GM is pretty undestructible (minus TH200 and TH200C).
In front wheel GM’s i had a 1980 Skylark with over 200.000 miles on it’s TH125. It ran good with it’s 2,8 V6. 1988 Buick LeSabre, 4T60 (i think?) 3,8 , had to knock of the contact to the lock up converter, it was slipping, but otherwise it was good. 180.000 miles.
In general I will say that GM build some of the best automatics today, in terms of reliability, but it’s not as good as the old Th400. The 4L80E are pretty close, and itæs much of the same trans as the Th400. The 4L80E was used in Ferraris, Bentleys, Rolls Royces and BMW’s. They are reliable and quite cheap to rebuild. The European automatics are very expensive, and especially VAG’s (Audi) are not very reliable, same with some of the BMW trans.
The Caprice with the 305 and TH200R4 is a pretty unique combo. I wasn’t away that they put the 200R4 in anything that didn’t have a BOP bolt pattern in it from the factory.
I remember reading somewhere that it was somewhat unique when they put the 200R4 into the 89 Turbo TA because it was the only F-body to get that trans., because it was the first F-body to get the Buick 3.8 too.
Well, it might be rare, I don’t know, but I changed the ATF once, and I’m sure it was a Th2004R, and the filter was for a Th2004R 🙂
Actually I will say that the 305 and TH2004R combo gave pretty good performance and great fuel economy.
305 and 200R-4’s for sure did exist. It was a crap shoot from 1982-90 which one you will find under hood so I have no explanation on what the criteria was for the the use of both 200R-4 and 700R-4 transmissions in the Caprice.
Most late 1980’s Caprices with 305’s used TH2004R’s. The 4,3L’s and 350 police used the TH700-R4/4L60. I don’t think I have seen a TBI Caprice (1989-90) with a 305 use anything by a TH200-4R. In 1991 the Caprice went back to the 4L60. I guess GM might have been trying to use up the surplus of TH200-4R’s. All Chevrolet powered A/G-bodies used the TH2004R, including the Monte Carlo SS. Many (most that I have seen) have the the dual bolt pattern bell-housing with both the BOP and Chevrolet bolt patterns. Even the ones I had behind an Olds V8 had the dual pattern. The TH700-R4 on the other hand was only used behind Chevrolet powerplants.
I smell what you’re cooking. Makes sense.
I don’t think there was a 200R4 after 90 right?
Yes, 1990 was the last year for the TH2004R, used in 307 powered B/D bodies and 305 powered Caprices.
The only FWD GM vehicle I’ve ever owned was a ’01 Grand Prix GT, and I got rid of it long before any transmission problems developed. It ate power steering pumps like they were candy, requiring a new one every 6-8 months. As long as it was under warranty this was only an inconvenience, but once the warranty period was up I got rid of it as quickly as possible. That was too bad because the Grand Prix was otherwise a pleasant car to drive; it was comfortable, had reasonable power and even got good mileage, at least on the highway.
Every single 6T70 in every fleet car we have died from 3,5,R wave plate failure. Saturn Aura XR, and Malibu. 100% failure, the longest lasting just under 100k miles.
I have also had late in life failure of the 4L60-E in my Roadmaster wagon. I’m taking in an ’05 Colorado (i-5) with 130k that has too much front pump noise to be healthy next week. Other than that, out of hundreds of GM personal and fleet cars, very few trans failures.
On the other hand, we finally had to give up on Chryslers after the Ultradrive. After ’89, I don’t think we owned a Chry-Co that didn’t loose at least one tranny.
Having owned tons of GM’s over my life time and living next door to a transmission guy I would say GM’s absolute highest failure transmission during the 70’s and 80’s was the Metric 200 unit followed by the early run pre 1986 700R-4’s. Many 200R-4’s were misdiagnosed or severely neglected or used to tow really heavy boats. The THM 350 and 400 were stout and generally reliable, especially the 400. The early build THM 440 transaxles were garbage from 1983 to about 1987 and the trans guy said that frequent fluid and filter changes were required to keep them alive plus keeping them cool. The 4T40/4T60/4T65’s were generally good but the latter did suffer some issues with chain failure and the infamous pressure control solenoid which caused a bang shift and buzzing noise when the adapt shift line pressure increase was implemented by the computer to compensate. he did bring up a good point though. All transmissions can be troublesome if not used for there intended purpose. Towing with overdrive on a high mileage tranny is almost a disaster waiting to happen. Not servicing your tranny on a yearly or bi yearly interval in severe weather areas like Upstate, NY is asking for trouble. Spinning tires in the snow and slush overheats the fluid and can in short time hurt a tranny because there is little to no air movement to cool the fluid. Our dealership swaps out Ford AOD-E’s and 4L60E RWD transmissions on a weekly basis. Our mechanic can do them in his sleep and knows off the top of his head which year works with each vehicle or truck.
1994 Buick Regal 4 dr with the ubiquitous yet venerable 3800 Series I. The original 4T60E is 3k miles shy of 200k. Have always been light footed on the gas pedal. Still, I recently (summer 2015) got a Hayden medium duty tranny cooler to be installed in front of the A/C condenser. BUT!… the mechanics that I know as trustworthy, professional and knowledgeable (ASE certified) recommended against the cooler, perhaps doing more harm than good — besides, the A/C condenser is large enough to cool the tranny lines going around it. We did an oil change and put in Valvoline MAX ATF. Bottom line: my 4T60E is still running smooth. I do feed her the occasional “magic makers” such as Lucas and LUBEGARD Platinum. They certainly seem to help. That and knocking on all the wood(grain) in the Buick’s interior. ^_^