In my farewell post to dad’s 2006 Taurus, I used the past tense to talk about his 2013 Honda Civic coupe. That was intentional, because he traded it in at the tail end of 2017. This was a pretty crazy move for dad. But to fully understand why you’re gonna need some context.
Year/Make/Model | Years Owned | Miles When Purchased/Miles When Sold Or Junked | Color | Reason For Selling Or Junking |
---|---|---|---|---|
1986 VW Golf 5 door | 1986-2000 | <20k / 380k | White | transmission failure / end of useful life |
1989 Chevy Celebrity sedan | 1993-2001 | <20k / 280k | White | headgasket failure / end of useful life |
1989 Ford Taurus wagon | 2001-2004* | 100k / 190k | White | *given to son in 2003 / junked in 2004 due to heater core failure / end of useful life |
1990 Buick Regal coupe | 2002-2010 | approx. 70k / 190k | Blue | end of useful life |
2003 VW Golf 3 door | 2003-2010* | <15k / 76k | White | *daughter's car until 2007 / didn't like it |
2006 Ford Taurus sedan | 2007-2017 | 10k / 176k | White | boredom? |
2013 Honda Civic coupe | 2017-2017 | 46k / 50k | Blue | didn't like it |
2016 Volkswagen Passat sedan | 2017-present | 8k | White | n/a |
This table highlights something I didn’t really understand until I got older: dad generally purchased younger cars and drove them until they outlived their usefulness. The Taurus and Regal, purchased about a year apart from each other and at higher mileages than his previous vehicles, were partial exceptions to the rule. But they fit right in with the other vehicles for one simple reason: they were good deals.
The ’86 VW? Former rental that a friend had on his lot, when his friend was still alive and operated a small used car dealership. The Chevy belonged to a manager as a company car, which then became available for others to purchase after the lease expired. He found all the others via newspaper, or in more recent times, online using his iPad.
The Honda was no different. But the Civic was obviously an aberration due to the short period in which he owned it. To understand why dad ultimately didn’t keep the coupe, let’s explore the reasons why he sold the 2003 Volkswagen Golf at a relatively young 76,000 miles.
This picture was taken when I was too dumb to understand the pointlessness of hiding a license plate and too lazy to grab a screwdriver. It also highlights a major problem area that still impacts the Golf : the giant C pillars. Dad and I never fully warmed up to the VW because of how much visibility is lost in that section.
Another problem area with the Golf was its lack of power. I believe the nickname for this engine is “two point slow,” which is accurate. The little hatchback could never get out of its own way, and as an added insult, almost never surpassed 30 miles per gallon.
The Golf also presented itself as a typical VAG product by being trouble prone in a few areas. The coil pack failed at about 70,000 miles, and the entire antenna and some of the related electronics also stopped functioning properly. Both were annoyingly expensive to replace. And the car killed brake light bulbs every couple of months.
All of those issues ultimately motivated dad to sell the car. So what went wrong with the Honda?
The first issue involved dad rubbing the Civic up against the side of the garage. At that point he had already started to realize just how hard it is to see out of the damn thing. Then he decided to rely on the backup camera to judge how the sides of the car were lining up with the garage when backing in, resulting in the damage you see above.
While its obvious dad didn’t use the backup camera as the engineers at Honda intended, its not hard to figure out why he thought it was a more preferable alternative to looking out the window.
The Civic’s long doors also made ingress and egress more difficult when the car was in the garage. The placement of the support beam is not something either of us even considered when looking at the Honda and I suspect a lot of people overlook similar issues when they’re out car shopping. The Passat, like all the other four door cars before it, handles the situation just fine.
Honda’s two-tier dash setup eventually wore on dad as well. The design does a great job at making you feel small in a car that is already a bit compact. Not a good quality.
Honda also equips some (maybe all?) of their cars with a “cold engine” light, a warning indicator that activates when you start the car in cold temperatures. Let’s just say dad didn’t uh, “warm up” to the big and bright blue light that turned on every time he got in the car.
Last but certainly not least, papa Snitkoff felt that the Honda just didn’t have enough power. I briefly discussed this in my COAL about the 2006 Taurus, and several commenters pointed out that all he needed to do was to step on the gas a bit to get it going. While I agree with that assessment, its important to remember that car ownership relies on emotion more than we’d like to admit. In other words, perception is reality, and if dad thinks the car lacks oomph, then its true.
Despite taking his time in searching for a newer car, when dad finally got around to actually check something out, he rushed right into it. It would be extremely hypocritical for me to criticize him for putting the horse before the cart though, because I did the same exact thing when I decided to acquire my Focus. The key difference is that after five years of ownership I still enjoy my car very much.
Dad didn’t let me know he was actively looking for a car until he approached me about a Certified Pre-Owned Passat he saw on Mohegan Lake VW’s website. A 2016 1.8T S with 8,000 miles on it with an asking price of $14,000. A quick bit of research indicated that their price was the lowest around, so I endorsed his decision to check it out.
My suspicion that Dad would get an unsatisfactory offer for the Civic went unfounded, fortunately. They valued the Honda at $8500, which I think was more than fair, especially considering the damage over the rear wheel well.
As for the Passat, dad took the car for a spin and liked it quite a bit. So did I. He ended up getting the car for $13,600, a very good number considering its CPO status and condition. Its essentially a brand new car.
Almost 1,000 words in and not a single shot of the car itself? Its probably overdue, so here it is in all its glory. VW deserves some criticism for sticking to conservative designs, but you really can’t argue with results. This is a good looking car and its going to age gracefully.
The S model is the base trim for the Passat, but VW decided to give it some niceties like alloy wheels, body colored mirrors and bumpers, and a tasteful amount of chrome. The end result is a lineup that doesn’t explicitly give off an inexpensive vibe.
Inside the story remains the same. Materials quality is very good, a tick more premium than a 2016 Fusion and substantially superior to the Honda. The next door neighbor, who owns a 2017 Accord, said in a somewhat exasperated tone, that “Honda really cheapened out on the Accord Sport” after sitting in the Volkswagen. Coming from a Honda convert, that’s high praise.
Aesthetically, the cabin is decidedly VW. No video game style two tier dash here. Just a nice, simple design.
The Passat S comes equipped with a 5″ touch screen that is pretty easy to operate. Surprisingly, my technologically impaired father adjusted to the setup rather quickly. And it also features Bluetooth, a USB port, and automatic dual-zone climate control. Not bad for a base model.
According to the window sticker, there were two options checked for dad’s Passat. A first aid kit we have yet to locate, and the Volkswagen CarGo Protection System. This nifty kit contains a plethora of plastic partitions that allow the owner to position goods so they don’t roll all over the place when the car is in motion. The pieces just Velcro right to the trunk mat, and they seem sturdy enough to hold a decent amount of sundries in place.
As for the human cargo management system, its damn good. The seats are comfortable and well bolstered. And the car is roomy to the extreme. The front seat is obviously adjusted for dad, who is 5′ 10″ and about 200 pounds. The both of us have space to spare, and you can see that in the above picture, with my knees being at least six inches away from the back of his seat. It’s a really cavernous setup.
When it comes to driving dynamics, the Passat is basically VW’s take on the Camry. Does that mean its bad? No. In fact its quite the opposite. The VW’s suspension is confident over road imperfections and displays competency around corners. But unlike more explicitly German products, the Passat definitely sacrifices some handling for comfort. What it also lacks is the typically heavier steering of older Volkswagen models. This is where the Passat comes closest to resembling the Camry. That being said, the VW handles better than its size would suggest, and it ultimately feels like a smaller car.
The Passat is essentially an American sedan with German roots. Ironically, if you want a more European driving experience, the Fusion is the better choice. The steering is heavier and provides better feedback, and the Ford displays more eagerness through the twisties.
Volkswagen also engineered a very refined and well behaved powertrain. The six speed auto produces extremely crisp shifts that feel almost as quick as the dual clutch setup that I’ve got in my Focus. And for the most part the 1.8 turbo works well with this setup. Take-offs were sometimes inconsistent, and I’m going to chalk it up to turbo lag. It’s really not that noticeable and I doubt its much of an issue once you get used to it.
Because no car is perfect, the Passat does have some shortcomings. The driver’s LCD display mirrors the type of low resolution found throughout a whole range of modern vehicles. While my Focus doesn’t have the capability to show audio information on its screen, its a full color unit that produces a much clearer image for the driver. The basic black and white displays should have probably been retired by now.
And there is evidence of cost cutting in the Passat. One such area is the rear shelf, which is fully plastic. This wouldn’t be a problem normally, but over bumps it rattles. My neighbor’s 2017 Accord Sport has a plastic shelf and it also makes noises over road imperfections. In both cases I believe the plastic doesn’t interact well with the rear glass, possibly due to temperature changes causing the shelving to expand or contract. Are both men bothered by the rattles? No, because neither of them can hear it. I guess hearing loss occasionally produces unexpected benefits.
If dad decides he wants to take it in to be looked at, there is no need for him to hurry. The CPO bumper-to-bumper warranty expires in 2021. And the current generation seems pretty reliable.
And those previously mentioned weak points are fairly minor. Overall, the Passat is an extremely good sedan and its made me reconsider a brand I had written off some time ago.
Sometimes a person needs to step outside their comfort zone to find out what they truly desire. With dad’s purchase of the 2016 Passat, he has found a true successor to the Taurus. And while dad’s 2017 automotive journey ended up being far more expensive than some sort of spiritual or emotional epiphany, the results were just as significant. He once again has a car that excites him beyond a superficial level. I predict nothing but smiles and smooth sailing for years to come.
Related Reading:
Well, I gotta admit… for a guy that has a history of keeping cars a lot of miles, buying a VW is definitely “stepping outside of your comfort zone.” At least he got the extended warranty. (sez the guy that bought a Charger. Grins) I’ll be interested to hear how that direct-injection turbo holds up over the years and miles.
Awesome that your dad decided to reconsider VW. And holy hell the amount of car he got for the money!
Nicely done. A friend has a diesel manual transmission Passat, it’s nice and I appreciate the lack of buttons on the steering wheel and dash.
My Dad mentioned this week he might want another vehicle. He’s 80, had his Escape for 4 years now (?) and I think his ultimate solution for dealing with the center button cluster was to stop listening to the radio 🙁
I guess as someone who has owned about 2 dozen cars, but almost never had a garage I have to wonder why your father insisted on backing in? His visibility problem would not have been so bad and I have to wonder if the doors would have been easier to open.
Ironically, folks who don’t care for the Passat hate it for it’s move closer to a Camry like car.
That’s always been dad’s side of the garage, and the reason why he needs to back in is due to the amount of stuff we have on either side of the garage. His side also has an automatic garage door opener. I think he also likes to just be able to pull out when getting to the end of the driveway instead of having to crane his next to make sure the way is clear.
My Dad always backs in too, and has scraped the side of the garage.
Better to scrape the garage then get T-boned at the end of the driveway I guess.
I too had a ’13 Honda Civic and got rid of it. It was uncomfortable to drive, roof and windshield too low for 6’2″. These are really meant for shorter folks.
Also, didn’t like the dashboard display after awhile. Prefer analog gauges. I kept looking at the tachometer for speed.
Good thing is high resale makes trading in easier than most cars. But, don’t recommend doing it often.
I have a 2010 Civic SI coupe. I don’t care for the two-tier dash, but I got used to it. Honda was supposed to introduce a new larger Civic in 2011. But mileage requirements introduced by President Obama caused them to panic. The 2012-2015 Civic is basically just a re-skin of the 2006-2011 car. They took so much out of the car that Consimer Reports did not recommend it. They changed the profile of the coupe. They made it more of a fastback and actually took OUT headroom. The engines were better, but they destroyed the SI. But that is a story for another day. Honda revised the sedan after one year, in 2013. The coupe got revised in 2014. It was baby steps. The current coupes are just awkward looking, especially in the rear. And the new 4 door hatchback is just oddly proportioned.
Much better choice for your dad.
We just bought a white, low mileage used 1.8T S Model VW, ours a two door Golf (yes, huge doors!). These cars seem very well-equipped for base models, though that’s probably my age showing, and personally, I really LIKE the driver’s simple, monochrome display, which has less flash but offers more info than the one on my 2016 Toyota. And (again, maybe my age, since I started driving when all US market VW’s were air-cooled and rear-engined) the 1.8T is a veritable powerhouse. We paid just a tiny bit less, with a few more miles and no CPO (though time and miles on all the factory warranties, including PZEV emissions warranty) so I think your dad got a great deal. Hope it’s a reliable companion!
I’m curious to see if my (80YO) neighbor is going down the same path as your Dad, Ed.
In December, his W-Body (a 2002 Buick Regal) went up in flames after a years-long battle with electrical problems….
https://www.facebook.com/kingsvillevolunteers/posts/1371017426342768
-WARNING- W-Body lovers may find the above video a little too graphic.
(my Mustang can be seen parked in my driveway right next door, BTW… I had my own Civic with me that day).
Since he really liked my 2016 Civic Coupe, he set out to find one at the dealer where I bought my car, only he was looking into a CPO, not a NEW one. Well, they didn’t have any coupes (lucky for him, if your Dad’s issues with visibility are any indication). He instead bought a 2014 Civic Sedan in the exact same color as your Dad’s car.
Some driving impressions: I did not find its 1.8L all that under-powered, and this is comparing it to my 2016, which has the 1.5L Turbo. It handled well, although I think they have made some improvements in this area with the newer generation. Like your assessment of the instruments, I was not a fan of its two-tier layout, much preferring my own set-up (pictured below). I will say that the tach-around-the-digital-speedo took some getting used to however. Honda must’ve had enough complaints to change this.
What I wonder is if my neighbor will come to not like this car after a while, as he is used to a bigger car, but so far he is enjoying his new ride… much as I am sure your Dad did in the beginning of his short ownership. I tried to talk him into an Accord like my own Dad’s, figuring that would be closer in size and feel to his beloved Regal than the Civic will be for him. Time will tell….
Honda must’ve had enough complaints to change this.
iirc that gimmicky two tier instrument panel came out in 06, so I wouldn’t accuse Honda of being particularly responsive.
This is what I had in my 98 Civic.
2014 is the first year for the CVT, right? I think that probably improved acceleration times.
I’m not sure about that. I know I had doubts about my own CVT after driving (and not liking) the one in my wife’s Lancer, but my 2016 (and his 2014) seem to drive just fine. I was showing him on my test drive how you can use the Sport mode “S” to keep the engine RPM closer to the sweet spot in the power band, as well as a little engine breaking on hills. Both Hondas have modes on their CVT(s) Low (L), Sport (S), and Drive (D), which I find kinda funny, because you really shouldn’t be hallucinating when you drive. ;o)
My Dad’s 2017 Accord has a similar CVT set-up to my Civic.
The wife’s 2009 Lancer only has Low (L) and Drive (D), which is basically useless. It REALLY needs a Sport Mode (S), as her car’s 2.0L is WAY under-powered, IMHO.
I am smiling because your father appears to share my own Dad’s love of white cars. I also remember a short dalliance with a Honda Accord that Dad got in maybe 1990 or 91. After about a year or so he had an accident and totaled it. He went back to (another) white Taurus. He said that he liked the Honda but just never felt at home in it.
I like the looks of these Passats. Perhaps these will start to melt the hate part of my love-hate relationship with VW. It is good to have a car that makes you happy.
Agree on the wide C pillars on the Mk 4 Golf. That wide pillar has been a trademark of Golfs for a long time, though the Mk 3 was the worst of the lot.
The Skoda Rapid Spaceback is that division’s version of the Golf. I much prefer the window treatment, though I have no way of knowing how effective that window in the C pillar is. In so many cars in the US market, the pillars are so thick to meet roof strength standards that they block much of the view from a third window.
The Skoda Octavia is also in the Golf-Class (the widely used and generally accepted expression in Europe for a C-segment car). Just like the bigger D-segment Skoda Superb it looks like a sedan, but it is a hatch-/liftback.
The Rapid is also available as a sedan profile hatchback. With wind tunnels dictating ever shortening rear decks, a hatchback seems like the logical way to avoid a tiny trunk opening.
With a few exceptions, like the Audi A3 sedan, the hatchback is the default option in the C-segment in Europe (let’s just ignore the wagons, MPVs, CUVs and SUVs in said segment for now to keep it simple).
The bulk of traditional 4-door sedans here is in the D-segment, all European, Japanese and South-Korean automakers offer one. I’d say there are about 15 of them, as in brands, to choose from.
The Rapid Spaceback is actually sitting on a stretched PQ25 (Polo) platform. Why they didn’t base it in the PQ35 instead, I have no clue
The Rapid Spaceback is actually sitting on a stretched PQ25 (Polo) platform. Why they didn’t base it in the PQ35 instead, I have no clue
The short answer is the Rapid is on the PQ25 to differentiate it from the Octavia, which was on the PQ35 until it moved to the MQB.
The long answer is VAG has the worst, most tangled, most redundant C segment line imaginable, even worse than 80s GM badge engineering.
In the C segment, they have.
Golf, MQB, in 5 door 2 box hatchback and estate. #1 in the segment.
Skoda Octavia, MQB, 3 box hatchback and estate. #3 in the segment.
SEAT Leon, MQB, 2 box hatch and estate. #7 in the segment.
Skoda Rapid, PQ25, 3 box hatch and 2 box hatch, #12 in the segment
SEAT Toledo, PQ25, 3 box hatch. #24 in the segment.
VW Jetta, PQ35, 4 door sedan. #25 in the segment.
In a refreshing spasm of rationality, VW has announced that the new MQB Jetta shown at the Detroit show last week will not be offered in Europe. I have also read that the Toledo is to be dropped. That leaves them with only 8 different C segment combinations of brand and bodystyle….and that doesn’t consider the new for 2017 Indian Skoda Rapid sedan on the PQ26.
Then there is this apparent SEAT Ibiza (B segment MQB) with a poorly camoed Skoda grill that may be either a 2019 Rapid, or a 2019 Fabia.
I just hope that they don’t make the Fabia a simple rebadge of the Ibiza. The Ibiza has the typical SEAT drooping character line on the sides, and its one of the cars that are giving SEAT its mojo back. The Fabia should at least change the window line (2 window only) and the side character line.
A Spaceback version of the Skoda Octavia would be a proper C-segment hatch, but it would be just one more sandwiched between the Leon, the Golf, and let’s not forget the A3!
My only hope is that SEAT never eliminates the 3 door Leon from the lineup. They did that to the Ibiza, killing the most popular model they had between young people: the 3 door Ibiza. The single most popular first car in Portugal. Most brands are killing off 3 door hatches in a lightning quick way, which means that when my time to buy a brand new car comes, there won’t be any 3 door hatch left.
According to the window sticker, there were two options checked for dad’s Passat. A first aid kit we have yet to locate, and the Volkswagen CarGo Protection System.
The first aid kit, CarGo bits and all weather floor mats. appeared to be, in Max Hoffman fashion, “mandatory options”. When I was shopping for my Jetta wagon, I never saw a car on a lot without those three margin builders. The first dealer refused to take those things out of the car, even though they were easily removable and I had no interest in them. The second dealer was willing to strike the cost of them off the price of the car, but then said I could keep them anyway. One of the other guys in the showroom said he would like to have the first aid kit, so I handed it to him. I left the mat in the cargo area of the car, and put the all weather mat in the driver’s footwell. All the rest of that stuff, the blocks and the rest of the all weather mats, sit in my basement, along with the window shade affair that is supposed to cover the cargo area.
Being a CPO car, that first aid kit probably stuck to the original owner, or was given away the way I gave away the one in my car.
The only issues I have had with my now 4 year old, 33K mile, Puebla built, wagon are a slightly undercharged a/c system, a couple loose plastic bits, a whine in the transmission and a rattle in the rear, all resolved to my satisfaction under the original 3 year warranty.
“Being a CPO car, that first aid kit probably stuck to the original owner”
…following the horrible, bloody, life-altering injury that was undoubtedly responsible for the abnormally reasonable price of the car. 🙂
This is the first aid kit. It isn’t going to do any more than keep a cut finger from leaking on the upholstery. The case is rather neat tho. You can buy the kit for about $25.
The guy at your dealership probably sold it for $20. Why get rid of it? I don’t know that I’d go out of my way to buy one but if it was already in the car and fit in a cargo space or the glovebox, it might come in handy one day…If not there, certainly around the house.
We’ve used ours quite a bit. When we moved into this house I stabbed myself with a utility knife – only first aid kit I had!
The guy at your dealership probably sold it for $20. Why get rid of it? I don’t know that I’d go out of my way to buy one but if it was already in the car and fit in a cargo space or the glovebox, it might come in handy one day…If not there, certainly around the house.
I don’t care what he did with it. It didn’t fit in a good spot in the car. It was in the rear right corner of the cargo area. I can’t recall if it had velcro to hold it in place. I don’t think I have bought a box of band-aids since the 80s. After closing the estates of three relatives, I have band-aids to last me a lifetime.
On a parallel note, my 2013 CC had those cargo blocks that velcro to the trunk mat. They are absolute genius! Once you use them, you’ll never want to be without them again.
On a parallel note, my 2013 CC had those cargo blocks that velcro to the trunk mat. They are absolute genius! Once you use them, you’ll never want to be without them again.
Want more? What’s your offer? They’ve been laying in my basement for 4 years. Still sealed in the bag….maybe I should try to flog them on eBay?
“maybe I should try to flog them on eBay?”
I would. Someone will buy them and they’re easy and light enough to ship. I’m cheap so my offer is $5 cash at the next CC meetup.
The cargo cover is worth cash too.
When I was a younger man with my first newborn working in SF with loads of extra time at work, I started and built a nice little college fund for her just by looking on Craigslist and at lunchtime driving around the city to pick up people’s cargo covers and floormats that they were giving away for free after returning their leased Land Rovers, Audis, and Volvos etc. and forgetting they had left that stuff in the garage. Snap some pics, put it on ebay, package them up and ship them using the work FedEx or UPS acct with my name on it to bill to internally. A Land Rover cargo cover would/will fetch a couple of hundred dollars plus shipping for example. Easy money. Hell, even that old Ford Mustang convertible top cover that came with my Miata that I sent to JPC thinking it was for a Miata sold for I believe over $250 last year once we figured out it was really for a Mustang….
I would. Someone will buy them and they’re easy and light enough to ship. I’m cheap so my offer is $5 cash at the next CC meetup.
I’m cheap too. Those block sets are going for $20-$25 on eBay, including shipping. They are so light, the shipping will be by the size of the box, not the weight.
I’ll keep the cover, on the off chance that I’ll ever have anything of value in the car that I don’t want seen.
Those sound like a great idea. The nice carpeting on the perfectly flat trunk floor of my Fusion results in *everything* in the trunk sliding to and fro under acceleration/braking/cornering.
Also $13600 for a ’16 CPO with 8k miles sounds like a steal, even if it is the base trim!
Hey, how’d you make that interactive table?
I was just going to say that I admire a man who presents data neatly 🙂
I used TablePress, which is a plugin for WordPress. Let me know if you want me to go more in depth.
Yes plz! I know naah-theenk.
Did you get my email Dan?
Your dad made a truly inspired choice. As the proud owner of a ’14 Passat S with the 1.8T, there’s a lot of car there to like.
We’ve had ours since September ’14 and have only 34,000 miles on it – I need to write up a long-term report on it at some point. Anyway, other than tires, I have no complaints. If he has the Kumho tires on it, plan to replace them at around 35,000 miles as the ones on ours are junk city. However, I’ve noticed the newer ones tend to come with Continentals.
Never noticed the plastic on the rear shelf until you mentioned it. Ours has been quiet, so that’s good.
The power is great, something I never thought I’d say about a four-cylinder car. It’s delightfully smooth and will get you in trouble if you don’t watch it. Making a solo trip to visit family a year ago, I noticed I was cruising up I-55 at well over 90 mph. Oops.
The plastic blocks for cargo are nice but do have limitations; some taller containers will still topple over the sides, so beware.
Sounds like your dad got a good one. No doubt he’ll get good service from it.
My dad has a Bug with the factory Continentals; they are crazy expensive relative to other tires. He insisted on OEM on his 19’s and $1,900 later…
My dad has a Bug with the factory Continentals; they are crazy expensive relative to other tires. He insisted on OEM on his 19’s and $1,900 later…
Super low profile tires seem to always cost a bundle. Even the cheesy 16″ Bridgestone Turanza EL400s that came on my wagon would cost a fortune for what they are if I tried to buy them. $125.22 on Tirerack vs the much higher rated and more durable Michelin Premier A/S for $131.97
Oh! I totally forgot you have a Passat! Thanks for the mini-write up. I’m hoping dad’s Passat ownership is just as uneventful as yours!
I kept the Cargo Blocks that came with the Touareg, they still come in handy all the time. The velcro on the bottom is super strong. Perfect for holding gallons of milk or OJ from the store when you use two L’s to create a square but yeah, a 2-liter won’t work. Also good for locking longer items like lumber in place or protecting corners of something bigger (mirror, drywall, etc).