Well, I’m pretty much all-in on the Dirty Dart now, because it’s officially a submarine. Oh yeah, I’m underwater. Like Arthur Crudup and Elvis said, however, “That’s All Right, Mama,” because fixing up junk is what I do, buckeroo. Here’s Dirty Dart Update, Volume Two!
This picture is evidence of what will happen if you forget to plug the bore for the speedometer gear when you pull your engine and transmission as a unit. Oops. By the way, never try to do that; there’s not really enough room. When I dropped the engine back in, it was sans transmission.
As I mentioned in my first update, the old engine had to go. This was good, in a way, because the old clutch was just toasted. The bellhousing was filled with oil from the engine AND transmission, and the pilot bushing fell out with the input shaft. No wonder the clutch was chattering. My new engine seems to have a good clutch, so I’m giving it a shot, along with a new pilot bushing and throwout bearing.
Here we are mid-swap, the new 225 on the engine stand and the old 170 on the floor. I had to swap the oil pan and pickup from the old engine to the new one, or the pan would have hit the center link. Taking the pan off gave me a chance to look at the cylinder walls of the 225, and there are still obvious honing marks. That’s good! The 44,000 mile claim by my machine shop looks accurate.
Here’s the bottom of the 225, waiting for it’s newly cleaned oil pan. There was about an inch of sludge in the Dart’s pan, which took awhile to clean. I also had to swap to the Dart’s old distributor, because I didn’t want to buy a module to run the 225’s electronic ignition (just yet anyway). I also decided to run the Dart’s Holley 1920 rather than the 225’s emissions Carter.
It is amazing how long my engine swap to-do list grew as I kept finding problems. The front and rear transmission seals needed to be replaced. I still have to do the rear pinion seal. The radiator was junk, so I bought a new one for an air conditioned Dodge Aspen, because they’re cheap, big, and available, unlike new Dart radiators. Someone in the past mixed-and-matched the clutch linkage and bellhousing, so I had to get creative with the adjuster screw and a long bar to get the right pedal free play. The engine compartment wiring was questionable in some areas. The alternator bearings were shot…The list just goes on and on.
The 225 is an inch taller than the old 170, so the exhaust (which was already too short) didn’t match up. I didn’t want to pay a shop to do it, so I welded up this adapter out of two flanges and some pipe. You can see the old broken speedometer cable in the background, stretched out with the new one.
Long story short, the Dirty Dart isn’t on the road yet, but I started the engine today. The ominous oil light was still glowing, even with a new sender, so I hooked up my oil pressure tester, and was pleased to find 50 pounds of oil pressure at cold fast idle. It started and ran great! I couldn’t run it long because there’s no oil in the transmission, so I had to keep my foot on the clutch and my dad watching the gauge. I’m guessing there’s a short somewhere in the oil light circuit, so I’ll probably just run a gauge rather than try to tear into the harness. A gauge is probably better anyway, even if it does give me one more thing to worry about.
Hopefully, Volume Three will bring good news of a roadworthy Dirty Dart.
Good up date ;
I doubt you’re under/over just yet , that’ll come if you paint and trim it .
-Nate
Nice! Any mods needed to mount the Aspen radiator?
I just had to redrill the mounting holes in the flanges, run an Aspen upper radiator hose, and a later Dart lower hose. Other than that, it’s a straight swap.
That engine is swap is likely a very useful bump is power. I suspect you’ve added a decent amount of value to the car. At least made it better anyway!
I have to salute a guy who goes all in on a car like this. The easy approach would be to re-list it on the bay or the list and then try again. But you, sir, have guts and tenacity.
Once you get the old girl on the road, it ought to fly with that 225. And with summer approaching, try my favorite little warm weather mod on this one: add a second heat shield gasket under the carb. For some reason, doubling the thickness of that gasket will permit you to significantly advance the timing ( maybe 10 or 12 degrees beyond the 0 degree TDC spec) without any pinging. The car will start on the first revolution when hot (which no stock slant six will do) and will also give you a kick in the seat when you step on the gas. The tradeoff will be some flat spots and stumbles during the longer warmup period (I never tried messing with the choke, just left that alone and lived with it.) Gas mileage jumps as well.
Good luck!
That’s always a good idea with inline engines, especially considering the swill that comes from the pumps these days. It currently has two spacers on it, so that should take care of it!
Carb spacers are an old hot rodder trick. Good to see it mentioned here!
Good to see I’m not the only one out there who’s gone down this road a time or two before. But I must say, you’ve got me beat on the welding front. That exhaust adapter looks great.
Best of luck as your project continues! (Though with the engine in and running, it sounds like you’re already well on your way to victory.)
Good stuff. 🙂 Sounds like you’re well on the way to having a reliable runner.
Excellent work! Very smart to do seals, clean oil pan sludge etc etc. This is why the competent amateur mechanic beats the professionals.
I doubt you’re underwater much, if at all. Even if you are the scale is so small, compared to, say the guy who spent $50k building a pro street Citation and then tries to recover all the money.
Really enjoying this series, keep it up!!
Looking good! If you really want electronic ignition without hassles, put a Pertronix in it. No more setting points! No more replacing mopar resistors. It fits under the distributor cap. I had one in my Galaxie and it never missed a beat in the five years I had it. Just make sure your old distributor is in good shape without a lot of play in the shaft.
I don’t know why everybody rags on the ballast resistor. I’ve only ever had one go bad. Besides, with a Pertronix Ignitor-I you don’t remove the ballast resistor. I have a Pertronix in one of my Chryslers.
It’s not so much when a ballast resistor goes bad in a Chrysler product. It’s when you replace it with a new one, and that one is bad, too…
Never use a Pertronix I they are ancient technology and will fry if you leave the key on w/o the engine running and they are more expensive than a modern solution.
I’ve only used an Ignitor-I personally, but the description of the Pertronix Ignitor-2 sounds like it is an HEI-style system. It alters dwell so that the coil saturates just before ignition event. The instructions recommend bypassing the ballast resistor, even when used with a low resistance coil. It also has key-on shutdown protection.
If you must go with a Pertronix then it should be the II or III since it is modern ignition system designed after the 60’s. The Pertronix I is the Per-Lux ignitor from the 60’s with only a new name, created when they split the ignition business from the forward lighting business. However the ignition system I described below can do everything a PII can for a lower price and in the rare case there is a failure the parts are on the shelf at any parts store in the US, Canada, or Mexico.
I see a road trip is coming soon, just in time for the summer season. You will have a good runner for not a lot of money, enjoy. Thanks for the updates, interesting reading.
What a pigsty of a garage!
I would feel right at home.
It looks eerily like my garage. I even have the exact same portable propane heater. My floor is littered with 383 V8s and 727 automatics though, not slant-6’s and 3-speed manuals.
Mine is worse. I haven’t finished the soffit yet and the birds found a nice dry spot to build a nest. Finishing the soffit and dealing with the birds and their aftermath is 1st priority.
The satisfaction of getting a classic back to good or better than original working order is always worth it! I always go into a project knowing that I’ll spend more than I should, but I see it as a hobby that helps me enjoy life. As a bonus, it will keep a car on the road longer so the next person can enjoy it too!
I really like this car,can’t wait for the next installment
Stick that electronic ignition distributor back in there! Just don’t hook it up to a Chrysler ignition system. Preferably use it to trigger a MSD box but the cheap option is to use it to trigger a high quality GM HEI module. Use that HEI module to trigger a Ford TFI coil. You’ll have the best ignition system possible this side of $300 for under $75…$25 if you shop at the wrecking yard.
MSD is overkill in price and capabilities for a street-driven car, especially a slant-6. I’m surprised you would recommend it for this application because it’s a waste of money. There is nothing inherently wrong with the Mopar ignition box. Just mount it where it will get good airflow.
They get a bad rap because the orange boxes that Mopar has been selling for years are junk. I converted one of my Chryslers to Mopar electronic ignition. I used an old orange box that I bought USED and it lasted for about 10 years. Replaced it with a BlueStreak/SMP LX-101 box. The orange box is rated to a higher RPM (6500?) that this engine will never see, so the LX-101 is a good choice and is what I would recommend here.
Biggest advantage of HEI is that it would allow you to get rid of the ballast resistor. HEI modules have internal current regulation. The HEI module can detect when the coil has saturated and cut back the current, which would otherwise turn into excess heat and damage the coil. That is more precise than a ballast resistor and the reason HEI can produce a stronger spark. It does stress ignition system components more heavily though, so they won’t last as long.
NOTE: Whatever electronic ignition system you go with, it is recommended to also replace the electromechanical voltage regulator on the firewall with an electronic one. Looks like this may have been done. If yours has “springs” on the back it’s electromechanical. If not, it’s solid-state electronic.
The reason for recommending the MSD as a potential is that the multiple sparks can help compensate for the inherent different in fuel mixture on a straight 6 with a carb. The other reason for recommending it is that it is plug and play with the pickup in the electronic ignition distributor, no other control box needed.
The Mopar box has a weak transistor and can’t fire a high power coil, which is why it needs the ballast resistor. You’ll never get really hot spark with the Mopar box. The ballast resistor slows the coil saturation time.
The HEI is happy firing a ~1.0 ohm coil for maximum output, because it uses a transistor that can handle the current. Yes you do need to use high quality cap, rotor and particularly spark plug wires with an HEI or you will literally burn through them. But if you do you can go 100K on the cap, rotor and wires w/o any problems.
The Ford TFI coil has a very high potential output and has proven to be one, if not the most reliable OE style coil which is why you’ll find people putting them on all makes and models of vehicles. Look around in the Chrysler forums and you’ll find people running the exact ignition system I recommended.
I know there are Mopar guys running HEI. You can even buy Mopar distributors that have been modified to mount the HEI module underneath.
The “weak transistor” reason that you gave for the Mopar box still requiring a ballast resistor is inaccurate. The Mopar box has fixed dwell period designed-in, so at low RPM the coil would overheat, like what happens with points. The Mopar box and Pertronix-1 are both closer to a straightforward points replacement than HEI is.
I’ll give you that the Pertronix is as simple as it gets in replacing points but I don’t buy putting the Mopar box on is easier than putting in an HEI/TFI system. Plus why spend the money on a new ignition unless it is an upgrade.
Yes the Mopar box has a weak transistor try hooking up a low resistance coil and see how long the box lasts.
As far as mounting any ignition box you really don’t want it in the “air flow” as the underhood air flow can reach some pretty high temps, though that is better than using an engine part that will get to engine running temp if you run the engine long enough. Which is why you shouldn’t buy one of the Mopar distributors that mount the module to the distributor. History has shown that is a poor choice of location to mount something that needs a heat sink. The GM HEI, original Ford TFI and the Hondas that mount the module to or in the distributor don’t last that long. Ford eventually got smart and moved the TFI module off of the distributor. They either mounted it to the back side of the core support, to the side of the radiator, like they did on the Ranger or so it sticks inside the cowl, like on the Taurus out of the heat of the air coming through the radiator.
> Yes the Mopar box has a weak transistor try hooking up a low resistance coil and see how long the box lasts.
Sorry, that’s a poor argument IMO. The box was designed to work with OEM-style coils with a ballast resistor still present. You can use an aftermarket coil with appropriate ballast resistor. If you want to connect a 0.3R coil, you need a larger ballast resistor.
If you take a radio that was designed to work with 8-ohm speakers and connect 4-ohm speakers, you’ll blow the power transistors out of the amp. Does that mean that it’s the amp’s fault that you wired it up with incompatible parts?
No that means that its power transistor is too weak. The simple fact of the matter is that the HEI module has a transistor that is designed to handle more current, ie it is more robust or stronger. It does not use current sensing to determine the dwell time it uses a simple predictive algorithm. It determines the time between events A, B, C, D and can predict closely enough when it will be asked to perform event E so it can start charging the coil so it reaches saturation just prior to being asked to stop the current flow. That made it a simple jump to being able to do computer controlled timing.
Adding an larger value or additional resistor to be able to run a lower resistance coil is counter productive you will not see its full potential and depending on what you are running it with it may not see full saturation.
The HEI uses a fixed dwell period. Which if you are using the old definition of dwell angle appears to change. The coil cares not about angles it cares about how long current can flow through it before it overheats. With systems that define coil dwell period by angle you end up with the time varying by rpm. So at low rpm you are heating up the coil excessively and at high rpm you may not reach saturation. With an ignition system where the coil saturation period is fixed there is no need to compromise between storing up excess heat in the coil at low rpm and insufficient saturation it at high rpm.
Which is why I recommend the GM 4 pin HEI module tied with your choice of inductive or even the correct hall effect pickup and using it to fire the Ford TFI coil. You get a modern ignition module at dirt cheap prices and when properly mounted it is even more reliable than it was in OE applications. You also get a coil that has an output potential that can’t be matched for the price and its charateristics are similar enough to the GM coil that goes into the cap with an external mount design that is way more reliable than GM’s external coil that is compatible.
> Adding an larger value or additional resistor to be able to run a lower resistance coil is counter productive you will not see its full potential and depending on what you are running it with it may not see full saturation.
Yes it would be counterproductive. You’re still trying to use incorrect parts that don’t work with the design, as per my radio speaker analogy. Using it in a way that it wasn’t designed for doesn’t mean the “transistor is weak”.
I also know how dwell works, and I realize that, if you want to get completely technical, it is altering when the dwell period starts to enure that the coil is saturated just before the firing event. That’s the same way that The Pertronix Ignitor-2 says it works. You’re really splitting hairs trying to find ways to say “No, you’re wrong”.
To me it seems like you are going to great lengths in an attempt to defend the Mopar ignition control module. You keep saying that it wasn’t designed to handle higher currents which is exactly my point. The fact is that the HEI module is capable of handling higher currents, aprox 3 times what the Mopar module is designed to handle. In my book that makes its transistor stronger than the one used in the Mopar module.
I never said that the Mopar module was unreliable, in fact of the early electronic ignition systems it is one of the most reliable.
If one is going to go to all the trouble of converting to electronic ignition why not convert to a more powerful and more modern system capable of producing a spark that will reliably fire across a wider spark plug gap for improved performance?
This is a good conversation…I remember reading about that HEI conversion in Car Craft last year. The Dart will probably get along just fine with points for awhile, but that would be a neat setup for my Mustang sometime! It really is a cheap way to convert almost anything to a high powered ignition system.
I’ve run a Pertronix 1 in the Mustang since ’96 or so, but it’s basically just solid state points.
The LX-101 box could also be interesting, since I could just keep the old coil and everything. Lots of options here, fellas! These are the kinds of things that keep me up at night and distracted!
For the Mustang just grab a reman distributor for an electronic ign 302 drop it in and hook it to the HEI Module and TFI coil. Get the cap adapter from the later versions so you can run the large diameter male terminal cap. Most of the better wire sets inculde 2 coil wires, one for the old school female terminal coil for the carb and CFI rigs and one for the vehicles that came with the TFI coil.
One of the beauties of the GM 4 pin HEI module is the fact that so many pickups will trigger it. The Mopar pickup with a reluctor from a Ford with the same number of cylinders can be retrofitted to many points distributors if there is not a factory electronic ignition distributor or if the factory distributor’s pickup is not compatible.
For what it’s worth-MSD is currently (ha ha) in Chapter 11. Don’t know if this will affect product quality, but may affect long-term parts availability.
Probably not, but not a big deal anyhow. There are other Capacitive Discharge Ignition boxes on the market such as Mallory HyFire and Crane Fireball.
I’d be more worried about MSD dropping the Atomic EFI product line. Their kit looks pretty good. I’d like to convert one of my Chryslers to EFI in the future.
If you want to go EFI there are much more cost effective ways than kits like the MSD on the market. $200 at the junkyard,$100 on new parts and a couple of hours will put a GM TBI system on just about anything under the sun. Megasquirt will cost you more but will do more than any other system under the sun. No they aren’t quite as plug and play as those kits that cost up to 10 times more, but saving $1500 bucks for an extra 4-5 hours of work seems like a great return and you get the satisfaction of knowing how it works, how to diagnose it and having parts at every parts store and junkyard in the country.
I know, I’ve soldered together two Megasquirt controllers, one for my brother and one for myself, and a MegaStim to bench-test them so I know they work 100%. Just never had time to piece together the rest of the system. It will be at least two years before I seriously look at an EFI conversion.
Speaking of which, weren’t you going to do a write-up on a Megasquirt conversion that you did?
This car should go ok with a 225 Ive never driven a 170 slant we didnt get the baby engine but 225s go well. Good move using the old engine accessories I did the same swapping a 1600 into my Minx all the known externals swapped in from the old engine and it fired first try and 50psi hot idle against 0 with the old one and no Knocking.
One guy put the 5.7L Hemi under the hood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6WPYS28EKw
My 225 does a great job of hauling my heavier (probably) 65 Belvedere around. I never have problems getting on to the interstate. My favorite part of it is how low of rpm’s the engine can be shifted. I don’t have a tach but I’m pretty sure I’m shifting below 2000 with normal driving which usually translates to decent gas mileage.
Was the 170 in there original? I thought the older ones were a shade of red.
The original 170 was red, but it had (I think, it was covered in grease) a blue head and valve cover. Someone might have swapped heads on it… No idea if it was original.
Great project you have there. Sounds like your plan of attack is very similar what I’ve done with my ’65 Valiant.
I applaud your tenacity. I do think this one’s going to be worth all your effort.
“Dirty Dart” – that’s what my mom called the Dart Drugstore in Vienna VA back in the day.