Posted at the Cohort by NickyD
I’ve just finished reading “Genesis of Genius”, Karl Ludvigsen’s splendid book of Ferdinand Porsche’s early professional decades (1900 – 1935), which puts a slightly different perspective on this shot of two very different Porsches. Without going into a long-winded spiel, let’s just say that rear-engined cars came to Porsche very late in his career. Up until the time he designed the ground-braking mid-rear engined Auto Union GP racer (1932), all of his cars were front engined, and many with FWD. And they were generally rather tall, as was the convention of the times. Admittedly, Ferdinand Sr. didn’t really have very much to do with the car that carried the family name, except of course that it was very heavily based on his VW Beetle. So what vehicle from Porsche’s early years is more representative of the Cayenne?
Front engine, four wheel drive, off-road capable, large wheels, excellent towing capacity, and plenty of room for passengers and their luggage (and then some). Let’s see…this 1915 Porsche-designed Austro-Daimler M17 tug seems to fit the bill pretty well. Yes, Porsches came in all sizes, shapes, and configurations; there’s no such thing as “the one true Porsche”.
Discussions about “real” anything drive me crazy. The Mustang II wasn’t a “real” Mustang. The downsized B bodies of 1977 weren’t “real” full-sized cars. Etc. Yecch.
I walked by a gray Cayenne on my way into work this morning. It’s not my cup of tea as a Porsche, but it does have the Porsche badge on it and that makes it “real” in my book.
My thoughts as well; recall past debates over the 914, or the 924. Porsche has always pushed the envelope of its brand cult.
Harley makes other types of motorcyles besides its Hogs, but who complains about that?
There’s this one guy on Flickr – I won’t say his username since he gets banned for other things and returns on another one – who insists that anything that isn’t a Brougham isn’t a “real car”!
Very true, I really don’t have a strong opinion as to what is a “real” anything. Times change, markets change, names get put on different things from the original use. Whatever.
However, it just seems odd when a car company like Porsche, so known for its roadsters, starts making SUVs and sedans. Whatever trips their trigger and more power to them, but no thanks. If for some weird reason I want to buy a Porsche, its going to be a roaster.
Or even a roadster. 😉
I have a certain opinion in regards to the Cayenne so honest to god, whenI googled ‘whale on wheels’, this was the search image result.
Wonder what I’d get if I googled ‘wanker on wheels’,
Rest my case milord.
How many actually went and Googled “wanker on wheels” after reading Delboy’s post? Be honest, now!
In Spain the search-result of a “wanker on wheels” would be the Mitsubishi Pajero.
I don’t see a Cayenne in any of those pictures.
That “1915 Porsche-designed Austro-Daimler M17 tug” looks like it could drive through buildings!
Looks tougher than a Cayenne, for sure. Probably not as fast…..
The most real and best Porsche is always the one in your own garage. However, red paint can generally be used as a tiebreaker.
That particular Cayenne pictured has a VW V6 engine in it, it’s kind of the 912 of 911’s in that regard.
Only the 912E though. The first run of 912s had real Porsche engines based on the engine of the 356SC.
When I first looked at the picture, I thought the car on the left was a Buick Enclave, even has similar wheel covers, so the orange bomb on the right has to be the real Porsche.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTzA5y–rShhRnXdcbC4-2o7kx4kCfhez99lqHo0DQDJtjaHWVy
Dang, encrypted pictures.
Thank you. Contrary to the 911-snobs; 914’s, 924’s, 928’s, 944’s, 968’s, Cayenne’s, Panamera’s, etc. are all real Porsche’s. Designed by Porsche, built in the Porsche factory (yeah, I know, some 924’s were farmed out and used a VW engine).
Paul, if I’m allowed a small correction: the M17 had a conventional drivetrain, it was the BE and C-Zug which were gasoline-electric, with up to 150hp (700hp in today’s terms!).
See here: http://www.trucksplanet.com/catalog/model.php?id=1793
Quite right…I tried to scan one of those form the book, and it didn’t come out well, so I found this M1 7 on the web, and forgot that it was conventional drive. But four wheel drive, at that.
How does 150hp in 1915 equate to 700hp in 2014? It doesn’t go with inflation like money; in fact with the change to SAE net in ’72 150hp would be more like 125hp. Back in pre war Germany they used DIN so there would be no change; unless they used some archaic measuring system I’m not aware of. Now torque; that’s another matter, these slow turning engines of the time would put out colossal amounts of torque; but they usually didn’t advertise those figures, would like to see what some of those old engines put out, torque wise.
I meant it in the sense that a truck having 150 hp when 50 – 70 was the norm would have equated to one having 700 now, but thinking about it, I was very conservative. It would be more like 1500 actually…
I see your point there, but it’s hard to quantify something like that. The vehicle in the picture is like some on the road tractor with a miniature train engine in it; no wonder they called it the Tug. As far as it putting out 3 times the average hp of each era; you might need to go to 2100hp as Volvo has a 700hp over the road truck.☺ Link here:
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/700-hp-volvo-fh16-the-world-s-most-powerful-truck-3132.html
It was all tongue-in-cheek and like I’ve said, I was conservative… Am aware of the Volvo – some of the new trucks are getting to the stage where they have almost car-like performance lightly loaded, it’s ridiculous.
Porsche is a very cool brand and is going to do well with the Macan. There was a lot of customer interest at the LA Auto Show though I thought the Evoque and CX-3 were better looking vehicles. Holy smokes on the CX-3.
I love the SC-Carrera generations of the 911. The black-out Fuchs and trim work so well with the 80s colors and classics like Guards Red and Grand Prix White. For some reason the combination is especially attractive on a gray day.
I was one of the 356/911 Porsche snobs until I finally owned one and spent time around owners of all sorts of Porsches, then I quickly got over it. Every car made by the Porsche company has been well designed for its intended purpose given the technology of the time, well built, and has an enthusiastic body of owners, and that includes the Cayenne. I have seen quite a number of households with a classic air-cooled 911 and a Cayenne daily driver, which says something.
The ongoing obsession with maintaining the rear engine layout and the 911 shape, the latter in increasingly morphed form, is actually a bad thing, in my opinion — they should have moved on with a mid engine design and clean sheet of paper styling (essentially the Cayman/Boxster) by now instead of maintaining traditions for no other reason than to make the “911 or nothing” crowd happy. There is plenty of precedent for a mid engine layout and different styling — the original 356 was mid engined, and so were the 550 Spyder and other race cars designed to be the best in performance rather than the best possible performers given the limitations of the rear engine layout.
I wouldn’t kick a Boxster out of my garage.
I think the world today would be a lot more receptive to something like a modern-day 928 (say a Panamera coupe?) to replace the 911, than it was back in the seventies when the 928 appeared.
I have an alternate suggestion for an early Porsche as a precedent for the Cayenne, and as a quintessential Ferdinand Porsche Sr. design: the Ferdinand tank destroyer (later renamed the Elefant), officially named the Panzerjaeger Tiger (Porsche). It had:
Front engine
High profile
High off road capability
Automatic transmission (see below)
Plenty of room for a six man crew, 88mm gun and ammunition
Best in class performance (firepower) when introduced
To make the Ferdinand even more Porsche, it used a gasoline/electric drive with two gasoline engines powering electric generators that fed power to electric motors powering each drive sprocket — a system pioneered by Ferdinand Porsche in 1901, as Paul has recorded. The drivetrain was clutchless, needed no gearbox, and was infinitely variable in steering using differential track speeds (many tanks used clumsier “stepped” steering mechanisms).
Need I also point out the obvious, that the Panzerjaeger Tiger (Porsche) “Ferdinand” was actually named after Ferdinand Porsche Sr.? I cannot think of another car named entirely after him, as his designs were produced by other automakers and bore their names with Porsche given secondary credit or none (e.g. Lohner-Porsche), as far as I know, and Porsche AG is named after his son Ferry Porsche.
The Ferdinand/Elefant seemed like a sort of consolation prize for Porsche losing the Tiger I competition to Henschel (German tank design was more competitive than Anglo-American). At Kursk, its minimal machine gun coverage was noticed by the Ivans, who took appropriate measures using Molotov Cocktails.
It did turn out to have excellent kill/loss ratio, but was a reliability/mobility pig; 65 tons is a bit much. We Allies should be thankful the Germans wasted resources on this & other fascinating but operationally impractical projects like Porsche’s Maus, instead of hordes of medium tanks & trucks as they really needed & Heinz Guderian recommended. It seems to me the Soviet Joseph Kotin had more sense as a tank designer.
A Porsche with a diesel engine that can tow a decent trailer. Nothing new under the sun.
Source: http://www.heise.de/foto/galerie/foto/Porsche-Diesel-27fd874c9ea8d6a6b7cc12b9bc2af574
According to a VW nutter friend the beetle was based on a sports car Ferdinand had been working on prior to Hitler laying out his specs, later the 356 project was revived and became a reality using the original ideas and beetle parts. Chicken/egg.
Your friend truly is a nutter who obviously hasn’t bothered to read the actual history.
British VW nutter, You never know.
His imaginary predecsessor is probably born out of confusion with the Porsche 64, which was owned for many years by Otto Mathe in Innsbruck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_64
Must be, but the 64 was totally based on the 1938 KdF prototypes.
Indeed, but as you noted, he’s an uninformed nutter. Incidentally, a friend of mine got to ride in the 64 after it was sold by Mathe’s estate and was being fettled by a Vienna shop. The guy who was working on it took it for a test drive on the Autobahn and they hit more than 160 Km/H with more to spare before common sense prevailed… He said it felt more like a 356 Carrera than a tuned Käfer but then Otto Mathe was very good with engines.
I wouldn’t put a poster of it on my wall = not a real Porsche.
Lamborghini started out in tractors too, does that mean the Lamborghini LM002 is the most true Lamborghini? Hell Michael Bolton started his career in Hard Rock/Metal! Roots don’t dictate purity.
The Michael Bolton of Porsches?
One is designed to go to the battlefield, the other is designed to go to the soccer field. A small, but important distinction.
Those wheels on the tug unit are a work of art in themselves. Sounds like a good read; I keep going back to Ludvigsen’s book on Colin Chapman.
I have been fascinated by the hub motor driven Porsche wagons , some of which had articulated steering allowing them to be hauled by one end yet still manoever in tight spaces….
I was hoping Paul would include some pictures of these .
I’ve owned a few Porsches and worked on many more , my all time favorite is split between the 1951 Continental Coupe and the 1967 5 gauge , 5 speed 912 Coupe .
-Nate