Prius AWD-e
GM’s announcement on Monday to not allocate new product to five plants as well as slash its white collar workforce doesn’t nearly address all of its overcapacity problems, which currently amount to some one million units per year. More cuts seem inevitable. GM stock this morning lost most of what it gained yesterday.
Meanwhile Toyota USA has announced a number of new versions of its sedans, including an AWD Prius (with toned down styling), a hybrid Corolla, and TRD versions of its Camry and Avalon. Toyota is determined to keep its sedan plants humming, including a brand new plant in Mississippi that builds the Corolla.
More on both after the jump:
First, the bad news:
Assuming that GM does close the three assembly plants ( Michigan, Ohio, Ontario) that it is targeting, it will still have four plants building cars (not trucks) operating at well below capacity. That compares to one car plant each for Ford and FCA after 2019.
According to an Autonews article, these plants include:
Fairfax, Kan., which builds the Chevrolet Malibu and Cadillac XT4 compact crossover. But that plant is operating at 48 percent of capacity, well below the 80 percent that GM CEO Mary Barra is targeting as the average for North America.
A GM plant in Lansing, Mich., that builds the Cadillac ATS and CTS and Chevrolet Camaro is running at just 33 percent capacity, while the GM Orion Township, Mich., facility that builds the Chevrolet Bolt electric car and the Chevrolet Sonic subcompact runs at 34 percent capacity. A Bowling Green, Ky., plant that builds the Chevrolet Corvette works at just 27 percent of its potential output, according to LMC data.
80+% plant utilization is considered essential to generate profits. Chrysler’s Brampton, Ontario plant that builds the 300, Charger and Challenger, which are still selling quite well, runs at about 80% capacity.
It’s quite clear that all of these GM plants are operating at losses.
“Until GM gets more flexibility in its platforms, it will continue to have to play whack-a-mole with its plants as the market transitions — and it will happen again,” said LMC analyst Bill Rinna.
In all, the four GM car plants that will remain open have a combined capacity of more than 800,000 vehicles a year, but are expected to produce only 360,000 cars this year, according to LMC.
Platform flexibility is a key factor here. And it’s one that GM clearly lags in, unlike Toyota, which has underpinned almost all of its new sedans, hybrids and small-mid CUVs (like its brand new Rav4) on its NGP (New Global Platform).
The result is that it can repackage features and build multiple models in the same plant. One mix-and-match new model is the Corolla hybrid, which is essentially a Prius in a Corolla wrapper, for those that don’t like that wrapper.
Speaking of the new Corolla, Toyota’s primary target are various ethnic groups. The Corolla has long been extremely successful in So. California with Latinos, and also with other ethnics. Toyota intends to work hard to keep it that way.
I already showed it at the top, but adding AWD to the Prius is long overdue, in my opinion. I’ve seen a lot of former Prius drivers here in Eugene replace them with Subarus, especially the Crosstrek, for lack of AWD. The Prius AWD-e adds an additional electric motor mounted under the rear seat to drive the rear wheels as needed. I would have added some body-colored fender flares and an inch or so of increased ride height, even if it did compromise fuel efficiency a bit. Toyota is lacking a competitor to the hot Crosstrek, whereas Subaru efficiency is not the greatest. This Prius AWD-e may go some ways to plug that hole.
Some of you may laugh at a TRD Camry and Avalon (especially the latter), but I have to tell you that out here on the West Coast, especially in California, “tuner” Camrys are surprisingly popular with younger drivers, especially young Latinos and Asians, which make up a significant percentage of the market out here. Toyota intends to capitalize on that with these new TRD versions.
They include a full aero body kit, matte-black 19-inch alloy wheels, painted brake calipers, red TRD badging and a flashier interior with red accents.
As per this autonews article:
Toyota said it saw a sales spike for sportier SE and XSE trims of the Camry when the 2018 model debuted on the Toyota New Global Architecture, which allowed for better handling. With the TRD variant, Toyota is betting there’s still more volume, and perhaps even some passion, to be captured among driving enthusiasts from its conventional sedan nameplates.
The TRD models come with the standard equipment from the Camry SE grade and Avalon XSE, but with chassis enhancements and tuning input from the racing development team. Both are powered by Toyota’s 301-hp, 3.5-liter V-6 — the same as on the Camry and Avalon XSE models — mated to an 8-speed automatic transmission, with paddle shifters.
Toyota gave the TRD sedans thicker underbody braces to improve torsional rigidity and a suspension package that makes handling and steering more precise. They will arrive in late 2019 as 2020 models.
Toyota is number one in the US market with light-vehicle sales, and its production capacity is heavily invested in that segment, so it’s clearly going all-out to protect its investment. Toyota USA did not meet its profit goals last year (along with so many others), and is also cutting staff and overhead, as well as increasing truck production to the extent possible.
But it’s also determined to make the most of its sedan line. And there’s a ray of hope when it come to sedans: Tesla’s Model 3 is of course a sedan and is red hot. In fact, the Model 3 is the highest revenue-generating sedan in the country, above the Camry. That might be both good and bad news to Toyota.
Interesting info, thanks. Here’s hoping that they take it a couple of steps further, put everything in one package and offer the Corolla HATCHBACK in Hybrid AWD form. All the bits seem to be there now but in separate configurations. That would potentially be a formidable competitor at a lower price point than the RAV4 which is the current Crosstrek’s competition (I think) without the, uh, interesting looks of the old AWD Corolla wagon with those weird rear side windows.
I’m not sure if the hatch would have much space behind the back seat left given how high the load floor is without hybrid batteries or AWD taking up space (taking it as given that this system takes up less space than a driveshaft, diff and axles).
The new Corolla wagon just launched in Europe would be a better base, but the extra ride height and gray flares Paul mentioned would be crucial for market acceptance of something like that (sadly).
Ford will have at least two car plants in North America, even after 2019. The Fusion will be reconfigured as a wagon, but its still going to be made in its plant in Mexico. That might not fit the definition of “car” as in, regular sedan, but thats what is happening. They’re also keeping open that plant that makes the Fiesta, but I imagine new product will replace it.
The “Baby Bronco” – which was featured in leaked photos shown at a recent Ford meeting, and will be called the Maverick – will be built in Mexico at the former Fiesta plant.
Has the Maverick name been confirmed? I know it’s in the running, and it’d be a great name, but from what I heard, it was still up in the air.
I thought it had been confirmed, based on what I’ve been reading over at Blueovalnews.com
Here’s hoping. Maverick would be a great name for a Focus-based CUV, not just because the original Maverick car was a distant predecessor to the Focus, but also because of the past use of Maverick for small SUVs and CUVs in Europe and elsewhere.
Where is the Mustang built and does that plant build anything else?
I’m surprised they would introduce a Fusion wagon for North America (or am I wrong in that assumption that it’s for NA), how do they figure it will be a money maker if the sedan wasn’t, I assume the sedan would have handily outsold the wagon, hence the reason it’s not already available.
It’s my understanding that the Fusion wagon will be something on the order of the Subaru Outback. It won’t simply be a station wagon version of the Fusion sedan.
The Mustang is built in Flat Rock, Michigan. The Lincoln Continental is also built there, but that will probably get the axe in the next couple of years.
What Ford should have done was offer a retro looking Conti instead. The one being sold now looks underwhelming. I saw one at the Ford dealer when I was in getting parts for a Taurus and it did not move me at all. I hate the outside door handles.
Shucks. I think the door handles are the *only* interesting thing about the new Continental. I’m glad they tried something different and they felt fantastic in the hand.
Ford Fusion wagon will not save Ford sedan business, at best it offers some headache to Subaru Outback. Toyota has attempted with Venza, a tall Camry wagon, and failed. It is kind of sad to see all three domestic car makers are struggling despite they finally get a better and more advanced sedan lineups than Japanese, but thier old problems, reliability, persists. Maybe domestic car maker need to confront this sickness from bottom up, components, engineering design, system integration, manufacturing etc etc to outsmart Toyota, otherwise, keep investing on new vehicles is a waste effort
It will be interesting to see what Honda does. The Civic, Accord and CR-V already share a platform. Honda has eliminated one trim level of the Accord for 2019. Meanwhile, the slightly updated 2019 Acura ILX is still on the platform shared with the previous-generation Civic – it’s as though Honda is balking at introducing an entirely new generation.
I predict the ILX will get cut in 2-3 years, or less.
But, OTOH, Millennials seem to like the current Civic. Seen quite a few driven by younger men with beards.
The problem is that there isn’t much reason to pay more for an ILX over a Civic, unless you prefer the styling or don’t like CVTs.
Haha I have a friend that bought a new Civic EX-T that matches this exactly “Seen quite a few driven by younger men with beards”
I don’t particularly care for it, I don’t like how the CVT+1.5T drives, totally missing the classic Honda “zing” and connection to the drivetrain, and there are many elements of the interior that reek of cost cutting. Exterior fit and finish is kind of marginal too in terms of some panel gaps. He’s had a few issues with it too, wipers went bonkers and then something else more recently that I forget.
I have a 2018 Civic EX-T sedan. So far, I like it (20,000 miles). I’m not especially young, and haven’t had a beard since about 2000.
The only problem I’ve had is with the infotainment system. The problem was solved with a simple reboot that I performed myself. The car is at the body shop now to repair the damage done in a collusion with some Pennsylvania wildlife.
My main issue is the cumbersome controls for the infotainment system. In particular, I dislike the lack of a conventional volume knob for the radio, which has been addressed for 2019.
Interestingly, my wife, my mother and my wife’s friend from Great Britain all have commented about how low the car is, and how it’s somewhat difficult to enter and exit. My wife drives a 2014 Ford Escape, and my mother drives a 2016 Buick Enclave. (The friend visiting from Great Britain does not own a vehicle.) This is one factor that is selling so many crossovers.
+1 on the self reboot thing. I am a little annoyed at how often one needs to do this, though.
The other thing my Civic likes to do is forget my radio station presets. It’ll start acting wonky, and then when I do the reboot, all the stations are gone and I need to reprogram them. It’s as though someone disconnects the battery, which has not happened to my Civic… yet (unless the dealer did it when I complained about the infotainment system issues once before).
Oh, and of course you get the standard answer from them, “Unable to duplicate customer concern”. I do get rather sick of hearing that one.
Overall, I like the system though, although this is the first car I’ve owned that has a system like this. I particularly like Apple Car Play.
With fancy dashboard software, you also get fancy IT problems consistent with the rest of the computer industry’s lousy, ’70s-Detroit style QC. Problem is, everyone has a fetish for new functions without considering the revenge effect of their increased complexity. If you really want/need that, I say use a smart phone, which has better hope of bug fixes. Any fool can write software, but it takes skill, persistence, and OCD to write *reliable* software.
My 2010 Civic is mechanically wearing OK, I love driving it, and I like its low-tech radio, but its cheap exterior trim is falling apart now. Blame the AZ sun perhaps, but my ’88 Accord didn’t have this problem at the same age.
I’m 58, and only grow the Van-Dyke in the winter between the Solstice and the Equinox. My wife is not a fan of facial hair, and I get to enjoy that for 1/4 of the way around the sun. ;o)>
I have the EX-T Coupe, and really like the car, other than the few electrical gremlins that were finally found just before Honda’s 3/36 warranty expired (traced to a two pin connector in the waste gate area).
I agree that the fit and finish is sub-par, but give it a pass due to its price-range. Panel gaps are inconsistent, and the paint doesn’t seem like it’s all that. My Mustang has a much better finish that either of the Japanese cars in my household.
I find the interior quite durable, however (so far anyway). The cloth seems really tough, and the soft touch plastics (on the top half anyway) have a nice feel to them. Honda keeps the hard plastics on the down-low, literally. I’m not a fan of the cloth on the console door, however. It feels like burlap.
As to the radio controls: It’s all in what you get used to. It’s like in 1979 when everyone bitched about Ford’s horn controls (anyone remember that?). After many years of driving my ’79 Futura (and possibly the ’83 Aerobird that followed it), I was quite used to beeping the horn with the turn signal stalk. The same is true with the radio. My Civic is my DD now (Since 2016). Whenever I drive my Mustang or my wife’s Lancer, I’m looking on the steering wheel for the volume controls. Heck, my ’97 Grand Prix had steering wheel controls for the radio. You get used to it, and even miss it when it’s gone. I think that the reason everyone complains about the Civic’s radio controls is that there are knobs where radio controls should be that control the Climate Control Temperature, and that is a little weird.
As for the CVT? I’ve said it here before, I thought I would hate it, as I do not like the one in my wife’s 2009 Lancer. But in this car, it, and the turbocharged engine to which it is mated, work very well, at least for me. I only have that lag effect at around 1200 RPM and 10 – 15 MPH when I try to punch it when in “D”. If I have the foresight to pull it down to “S” to bump the RPM slightly closer to the car’s sweet-spot in the power-band in these kinds of rush hour scenarios, there’s no lag at all.
And as to the handling, it’s a fun car to toss around.
And I too wonder why the hell the ILX is still on the 9th Gen Civic platform. Makes absolutely no sense (to me anyway, but what do I know?) when the 10th Gen platform is now in its 4th model year (2016-2019). Maybe they are targeting a more conservative buyer? Why pay all that more money for the Acura and get an older car?
My 2008 Golf SpotWagen has impeccable fit and finish, way better than the Civic. The materials in the cabin are light years better than the Honda and the reliability no worse. It’s fun and frisky to drive and cheap on fuel. The Civic was a slug in comparison,
The reason I didn’t buy a Civic was it wasn’t nearly as good a buy as the Golf. To get the turbocharged engine, you are pushing C$30k for a Civic, when a base Gold is about $21k.
Oh and Honda dealers here suck.
$30K for a turbocharged Civic? – Maybe your Honda dealers suck up there. I paid around $23K down here.
Glad that you enjoy your VW, but the experience of people I know has been that they do not “age” nearly as well as Hondas and Toyotas (or even Fords). And VW dealer service has historically been awful around here.
LOL my current car has the horn push in the steering wheel centre just where I cant find it, theres still a push button on the indicator? light stalk but its not connected I guess the switch gear is shared with other models, trust Citroen to do it differently.
Read the post again… the ‘79 Fairmont Futura had the horn on the turn signal stalk. I was making a “you get used to it” comparison with my current Civic’s radio controls.
“fit and finish is sub-par, but give it a pass due to its price-range. Panel gaps are inconsistent, and the paint doesn’t seem like it’s all that.”
But the sad thing is, Honda used to really excel in this. Even my 2012 Civic that was maligned by the automotive press seemed notably better put together than my friend’s ’16.
IMO a good first step would be to take away the HR-V’s unique sheetmetal in favor of the Fit’s.
Building a subcompact hatchback and crossover off the same complete set of expensive body dies seems like a no-brainer to me, and if anything a raised-and-cladded Fit would look even more “SUVish” than the HR-V does now.
When I dumped my Focus, I said “#@*$!” to Ford and don’t care if they quit cars, can just get Asian brands. Low resale value in the long run hurt D3 cars, etc. Their trucks have better ‘street cred’.
BTW, I do another “#@*$!” to “manual diesel wagon guys” slamming Camrys/Asian sedans, 😉 and glad to see this: “Toyota said it saw a sales spike for sportier SE and XSE trims of the Camry …” in my XSE 🙂
This neatly summarizes why I continue to be so impressed with Toyota as a company. Smart, focused, disciplined, targeted, uncovering every opportunity, methodically innovating without sacrificing quality or customer experience. Just plain smart business. Toyota may not be the most exciting firm, and unquestionably has issues (like every other large enterprise), but the company remains quietly and consistently “good to great” in the areas that really matter to a very broad audience of buyers.
GM flails around talking about “EVs” and “autonomy” as the future, while they underperform the market with subpar products. Toyota, by contrast, just gets stuff done right. And due to the company’s quality standards, won’t introduce features or technology before they are ready for prime time–an unfamiliar trait at GM…..
Unless you buy a Scion and then you are treated like a red headed stepchild. I saw none of that vaunted Toyota quality or great customer service when I had my 2011 Scion XB. The XB was not a heavy vehicle but that 2.4l 4 cylinder was a gas pig(I actually got only about 1 or 2 MPG more then my 2005 Lesabre with its 3800 V6)
At the time, I was one of those “younger customers” that Toyota wanted when I bought that XB new in 2011. I was 34 years old and about 10 years younger then the then Toyota demographic age. At 35 a year later, I dumped the car after fighting with Toyota dealerships about warranty work, I bought a nice Kia Forte that I loved and had no issues with until some stupid $%^% putting on makeup decided she liked the front end of her car in my trunk and slammed into it.
No more Toyota products for me. I had occasion to buy a new car a few months ago. I bought a Hyundai Elantra. I did not even look at Toyota even though my Hyundai dealer owns the Toyota dealer right next door.
Leon, I’m sorry you had a bad experience. You’re undoubtedly not the only one. But it’s the batting average that counts.
And having a Scion instead of a Toyota had nothing to with it; trust me. You were unlucky.
Toyota has a strong commitment to quality and building a product the majority of buyers would want to buy. Having worked in Japan, I know how they operate.
It’s just driving their cars is like opening the fridge.
I hope not. Never sure if the darn door shelf will fall off when I open the fridge.
When discussing overcapacity, you must also consider that next year is an auto worker’s contract year. Each of the plants that GM is “closing” are really not closing. They will not have new product assigned after 2019 and will be in hiatus. After contract negotiations are concluded, we will really find out what will close, what will stay open, and what they will build.
With respect to the cars GM will stop building, it is a self fulfilling prophecy. Trucks and SUVs generate larger profits, so GM has been actively advertising them in the media. Cars, what cars? In the Detroit area, I only see an occasional ad for the Malibu and some of the Cadillac cars. No Cruze, no Volt, no LaCrosse, no Impala. It is surprising that they sell as well as they do with NO marketing visibility whatsoever. Then GM blames the consumer for not wanting cars which they don’t know much about due to the lack of advertising.
It’s easy to opinionate on these topics, but it seems that Toyota (and Honda, at least in the US) maintains their lead with some basic engineering, product planning, and marketing. I’m probably preaching to the choir here, but GM is shuttering plants because no one wants their cars. It’s not about sedans, or tariffs, or labor costs. Meanwhile, the Asians are building the right cars:
– Reliable … at least reliable enough, though perhaps still riding on a well-earned past reputation … cars that people want. Sedan, hatch, CUV, it’s the product not just the body style.
– Branding. To us old guys, Malibu and Impala, perhaps Regal mean something, but GM dropped those brands for decades, and still changes names regularly. Camry, Civic, Corolla, Accord, even Prius have been consistent for a long time. Sonic, Cruze, LaCrosse … those have no permanence. Bolt and Volt are clever, but visually and audibly are too easy to confuse.
– Technology. Yeah, they’re all lagging on EV’s, but Toyota and Honda seem to offer more choices of economical powertrains on the cars people want. I think the AWD Prius is brilliant … let’s see how it does. Maybe there will be a TRD Edition with skidplates and a slight lift 🙂
Great points!
I think one of Toyota’s relatively few gaffes was not more thoroughly capitalizing on the Prius, which I think was/is a very advanced and smart solution offering high efficiency and impressive Hybrid/EV capability for easy everyday use with no range anxiety. Seems that they are now beginning to more aggressively address those missed opportunities.
When it comes to EVs, one of the challenges remains the price point. The Leaf starts at $30K, Bolt is $36K and Tesla has yet to actually sell the infamous $35K Model 3. I think Toyota and Honda are smart to deliver efficient ICE and hybrid choices at more affordable prices to continue to satisfy a sizable and profitable market. Despite the hype, EVs have not yet tipped into the mainstream (even in CA, with 10% EV market share) nor have they yet demonstrated significant, sustained profitability. Toyota and Honda can wait, watch, refine and be ready with affordable, functional and profitable EV products when the market is ready to move out of the “early adopter” phase.
You forget about the Hyundai Ioniq. It has not been rolled out to every state yet but in states that it is sold in, it is possible to get one for under $30,000 after all the Hyundai factory discounts. My local Hyundai dealers are listing the Ioniq Electric for base prices of $26,000 to $33,000. This is the price before all the taxes and tags and other Processing fees. Even so it is possible to get a base model Ioniq EV for under $30,000 out the door.
The Ioniq also comes in hybrid and plug in hybrid flavors also.
Once the ability to charge EV’s up to full in 15 min or less comes out and these chargers are easily accessible (like being in a gas station) then the EV market could explode.
You tie into a point I made earlier, and have helped me to make it more succinct. People will buy safe, they will buy exciting and they will buy prestige. The Japanese cars are safe in the sense that you know it is not going to turn into a steaming pile of refuse in your driveway. Some American cars are exciting, like Mustang, Challenger, Corvette. The Germans (along with Lexus) seem to have prestige locked up.
By and large, GM excels in none of these areas. In each area where they try, they are outdone by others who do it better.
Spot-on ‘deman’! Year in and year out, Toyota/Honda consistently build top-ranked sedans, whereas Detroit has bounced hot and cold for decades. As you mentioned, the model-name Shell Game suggests they know their credibility is weak among non-loyalists.
Is it a coincidence that the Mustang and F-series have been around by name since the 1960s? I will give Detroit this: they outlasted the Japanese in sport coupes.
On the topic of Toyota, and specifically the soon to be built TRD Camry and Avalon, I don’t understand why Toyota didn’t see this market niche sooner. But on the other hand, I always thought that the SE Camry should have been what the TRD edition will be… a sporty Camry, and not just a sporty badge. Then when the XSE trim debuted I thought FINALLY….but no, still not much more than a badge.
BTW, I have a sister who lives outside Rochester, NY and is on her 3rd Prius, and her sisters all own Outbacks, but the Prius driver is not the least bit interested in a AWD Toyota. Though I do have to say that for really extreme weather her husband has a CLA with 4Matic.
Toyota had a hybrid wagon, the Prius V, that would have made a decent foundation for a hybrid AWD vehicle, too bad they decided to try a RAV4 hybrid instead.
“But on the other hand, I always thought that the SE Camry should have been what the TRD edition will be… a sporty Camry, and not just a sporty badge. Then when the XSE trim debuted I thought FINALLY….but no, still not much more than a badge.”
The SE and XSE Toyotas DO have notably different suspension tuning than the LE/XLE variants, for what it’s worth. If anything I’d call these TRD packages kind of lame for not introducing much beyond the XSE aside from some aggressive looking aero bits, although I guess the chassis stiffening is something. But no extra power or anything is kind of lame. Back in the day Toyota offered factory superchargers for the V6 Solara/Camry and other tuning bits that truly transformed them into potent street cars.
FWIW, beige/champagne/sand hasn’t been offered* on Camry since at least 2012. Can get at least red & blue along with popular “50 shades of grey” [black/silver/gray/white].
*Still on Corollas though.
Yes it was, it’s named Creme Brûlée and is the same shade that’s on the Highlander between 2014 and 2016. It’s sort of a champagneish shade. I’m not sure about the current Camry though.
Interesting, I live near Los Angeles and have not seen a ‘tuner’ Camry yet.
I think the shift away from conventional passenger cars is real, and even Toyota is considering the trend seriously:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20181106/COPY01/311069977/toyota-takes-hard-look-at-trimming-u.s.-lineup-as-profits-rise
I have seen tuner Camry’s before, that is to say I have seen Camrys with the mufflers removed and the lights spray painted black, but they’re 10-20 year old examples and presumably family handmedowns (young drivers don’t tend to shell out $30k for a brand new car) and cannot possibly imagine that isn’t the case in Los Angeles as well. I can’t help but dredge up the incessant “young people don’t care about cars” and “automakers shouldn’t cater to enthusiasts because they don’t buy new” comments I constantly see, and ponder why Toyota gets a pass here for catering to them. Oh and also point how successful Toyota is with youth marketing, since Scion was just soooooooo successful at it. But I see the TuRD Camry has a wing, so it’ll be very hip by current, 2003, standards of import mods.
I am however happy to see extra variety in the pipeline, what made Impalas great in GM’s glory days was the various trims and options it provided in the classic ala carte sense. Regardless of the future of the automobile, be it CUV, EV, AV with the only brands leftover being Toyota and Tesla. This otherwise bleak future would be palatable with variety and personalization options back for the car buying experience.
And when was the last time you were in SoCal or BayArea in areas with high concentrations of Latinos, Asians, or Fusions (mixed race)? It’s a different world from where you live.
Lots of late model Camrys and Corollas, and quite a few sporting decent quality modifications. Do you begrudge them that? Are you that judgmental? Not all Latinos are dirt poor, you know. Actually, in these metro areas, you don’t see a lot of cars more than about 15 years old because everyone has to commute wickedly far to their jobs. And surprise: they can afford new/newish cars!
The image you paint of 20 year old Camrys without mufflers is not representative in the slightest at what you’ll see there. Or here.
My my, you really are sounding more and more like a very grumpy old man. I hate to think what you’ll be like when you’re my age. 🙂
Keep ragging on Toyota; they’re obviously are clueless about what they’re doing.
When’s the last time you’ve been to the Chicago area? Before you accuse me of being judgmental you might want to look in the mirror. I said nothing of the demographics of the owners, if there’s even a difference between white or Asian or Latino car enthusiast, which, yeah, there are many here. Only white guy heavy car events are the classic muscle car type stuff, anything late model related is a total mixing pot. The trends are pretty much the same regardless and west coast car trends aren’t some well kept underground secret shielded from us, the internet kind of ended that regional exclusivity.
And I’m not judging anything, I pointed out two things: 1) the fact that painted red brake calipers and erector set rear wings were how people older than me modded sedans circa 2003. I looked up Camry mods on a quick google image search and, nope, none resemble that TRD, they’re several inches lower with lots more negative camber and generally cleaner looking. The few that even have “wings” are simple lip spoilers. Toyota looks like they used parts straight off of promotional Scions during the brand debut. 2) When I say young owners I think 18-25, and I have a hard time imagining anyone of any ethnic background in that age group buying a Camry that isn’t second hand or a handmedown. Most people that age don’t have the money to buy a brand new car. And being that, mods tend to be budget, as you would for a car you don’t intend to have forever, until moving onto a car that they actually aspire to own like a STI or even a BRZ/FRS, keeping in the Toyota family, when they can afford it. Maybe that’s the west coast specific thing, Camry’s aren’t aspirational youth cars here.
I’m not ragging on Toyota, I’m ragging on hypocrisy. If GM announced a Malibu SS equivelant of this Camry TRD today you’d be all over them about how out of touch and dumb they are for doing so. Like I said, I’m ultimately glad for more variety, it almost seems as though Toyota is listing to my anti-beige appliance rambling. 😉
If GM announced a Malibu SS equivelant of this Camry TRD today you’d be all over them about how out of touch and dumb they are for doing so.
No, I wouldn’t. I never have before when they announced SS models, and I wouldn’t now. If they can sell a few more by slapping SS badges on it, who cares? I don’t.
If you had told me there was an SS package for the current Malibu, I’d probably believe you. These things are profoundly off my field of vision.
If Toyota is off-base with the TRD, it’s not like it’s going to cost them anything (other than peanuts).
You do know that the very hot Tesla Model 3 Performance has red calipers? But then they’re clueless too, obviously.
I’ll be honest, I had to fact check myself if there was a current Malibu SS as I was typing it, so touché 🙂
However red 6 piston brembo fixed calipers on the Model 3 Performance are a far cry from red painted standard sliding calipers as seen on the Camry and commonly done via VHT paint in autozone parking lots across the nation to other regular cars(hey, I did this too… in 2009! They’re plain grey now) Brembos on sports cars in the 90s really are what set off the colored caliper trend
Agree with Matt’s key point here: Chicago is very multicultural and thoroughly embraces imports and Toyota, though tuned cars tend to be a bit older (buy secondhand and spend money on modifications). And I really don’t believe new Camrys are aspirational style statements for young people anywhere (Civics and Subarus, yes). And I do spend a lot of time in California, both Northern and Southern, so I do see what people drive there firsthand. Chicago is not that different at all when it comes to these cars and drivers.
One exception: relatively speaking, Chicago is less EV-centric, as there are climate issues (like long periods of extreme bitter cold possible from November through March) that can adversely impact EV performance. (Yes, I know, I know, extreme cold impacts all cars… but even Electrek will begrudgingly acknowledge that cold actually does impact range). As an example, I know a good half dozen Chicago-area Tesla owners quite well, and none of them use their Teslas on really cold days. Plus, like so many Tesla buyers, these people are wealthy and have other ICE cars in the family fleet to use as needed. The rich version of a “winter beater” I suppose.
For the record, my fridge with the broken door shelf is white, not beige. And its made by Samsung, not Toyota.
Lighten up guys!
Here in Quebec, and elsewhere in the “snow belt”, it’ll be hard to find a 10-20 year old Camry in good shape due to rust thanks to road salt.
On a off-topic sidenote, I wonder if Nissan will follow Toyota’s example despite all the current storm they got with the firing of Carlos Ghosn who put the Renault-Nissan alliance in possible jeopardy?
That TRD Camry looks like a very angry Kia Optima. Toyota’s design studios seem to be borrowing other people’s designs and making them angry. A good example is the C-HR small CUV which I once described as a cross between a Nissan Juke and Douglas Adams’ Kill-O-Zap ray.
You think this is new? Hardly. Below is just one example; I could find lots of others.
A good example of a dud family car turned into a credible performance car with the right hardware upgrades. No reason it couldn’t be done to the Camry as well.
A “dud” family car? The front end was awkward on the sedans and wagons, but all Mopar intermediates of that generation were good cars.
Toyota has executed well on ordinary cars, but they seriously missed the boat on EVs. There must be lots of Prius owners like me who would be very interested in a Toyota EV. The plug-in Prius 25-mile range half what it needs to be. Testa’s top trade-in is Priuses – Toyota squandered a big opportunity by not carrying the Prius fan base into EVs,
And the crazy restyle of the current Prius was not good either. Sales are way down. The new AWD Prius is better looking, that will help.
I know they announced a big EV program, but they have a lot of catching up to do. Toyota’s execution is far from perfect.
So yesterday, GM substantially pulls out of the sedan market because it’s shrinking away to nothing and there’s no money to be made.
And today, Toyota expands further into the sedan market by announcing new versions of its existing product line targeting specific groups of consumers.
So which company is screwed? GM for pulling out of the “dying” sedan market? Or Toyota for expanding into an “opportunistic” sedan market?
Both are responses to a diminishing sedan market.
Situationally, both make sense. GM sedan sales are below the profit line, and a few thousand COPO Impalas won’t change that. It’s still a loser.
Toyota presumably is still operating profitably, but has excess capacity. They can increase their manufacturing complexity and operate less efficiently–they can’t sell their max efficient output anyway.
By the way, I thought y’all raised the “speed limit?” I just got ticketed twice for “speeding” in my comment post.
I don’t buy new cars, but if I did, I’d be cross-shopping this AWD Prius and a Crosstrek. My previous Subaru Outbacks were great all-around cars (head gaskets and cats aside), and my current Prius (’07) has been the most no-frills, economical, reliable vehicle i’ve had yet.
Interesting that Toyota thought to tone down the style on this new Prius. From the one pic, it’s hard to see what’s going on in the back, but the tail fin Prius was literaly ugly enough to turn me off to the Prius even though I’ve had nothing but good experiences with mine. What little I can see from the pic looks much more promising than the last model’s looks
Have you happened to notice that the regular Prius has a very different rear end than the plug-in Prius? The plug-in is far more attractive to me (but your opinion may vary). I’m not sure WHY they are different but they definitely are.
I’m not a fan of the current (well at least until 2019) Prius, but fortunately I see just enough Mirai’s and Honda Clarity’s around here to make any Prius look good.
Toyota had or has a Sportivo model Camry in the local lineup with some dressup bits to make it look sporty, they tried to compete with the sporty dress up kits from GMH and Ford,
Ive been driving past a Ford showroom at night no cars in there just various SUV type wagons and various Rangers, it seems the sedan has died and they forgot to tell us
A poster upthread wondered where the Mustang is built, which by pure coincidence, was mentioned on the local news tonight:
Due to slack sales, a shift is being eliminated at Flat Rock Assembly, where the Mustang and Continental are built. However, due to soaring sales of the Navigator, most of the people leaving Flat Rock will be transferred to Livonia Transmission to build Navigator trannys.
80+% plant utilization is considered essential to generate profits. Chrysler’s Brampton, Ontario plant that builds the 300, Charger and Challenger, which are still selling quite well, runs at about 80% capacity.
FCA has managed to take a product that is more than a decade old, and keep it interesting. And, somehow, the ancient Caravan and Journey keep selling as well.
Had an amusing thought tonight. FCA’s original plan when the Chrysler 200 was abandoned was to move Ram production from Warren Truck to Sterling Heights, where the 200 had been built. Then renovate Warren Truck, which was built in the 1930s, then move Ram production from Sailtillo to Warren Truck. That way, they would always have two plants building Rams so there would not be a product shortage. The Warren Truck renovation was budgeted for $2B and due to be complete by 2020.
There was a piece on the news wire about 3 weeks ago, Mike Manley reconsidering the decision to move Ram production out of Saltillo and he is now looking at running all three plants, Sterling Heights, Warren and Saltillio through 2019 to meet demand. I start wondering if FCA can afford the lost production volume from taking Warren offline for the renovation.
Meanwhile, FCA has a new, mid-size Dakota pickup in development. Originally planned to be built in the Jeep plant in Toledo, but Jeeps have been selling so well Toledo doesn’t have enough spare capacity. So then FCA started thinking about putting the Dakota in Sailtillo, but if Sailtillo is still cranking out Rams…
And, somewhere along the line, they need to find space for the long promised new Wagoneer.
By the way, MT has named the new Ram “Truck of the Year”, and the new Wrangler as “SUV of the Year”. The new Gladiator was officially unveiled today. They’ll probably sell a bazillion as it’s the most butch looking pickup around.
All that produced an image of Mike Manley walking up to Mary Barra and offering to buy the GM Detroit plant, which is only about 6 miles from Warren Truck, and 50 years newer than Warren Truck. Then he could retool the former GM plant (known to locals as “Poletown”), while Warren ran at full trot. Then, when Poletown was ready, move the Warren staff over, so that Ram production would be disrupted as little as possible. Of course it will not happen. Even I don’t have enough chutzpah to say to Barra “sell me your plant, so I can build enough pickups to knock the Silverado out of it’s #2 spot”
The bottom line is that GM’s issue of not being able to sell enough vehicles of any sort to keep all it’s plants busy is a GM issue, not an industry wide issue.
In Paul’s defense – I lived in the Bay Area for three months in 2010 after growing up in Michigan my whole life, and I was VERY surprised at the amount of heavily modded newer model Camrys on the streets (and Accord/Altimas/Corollas/etc).
In UAW-heavy Lansing, where most driveways are home to a Malibu or Impala… Toyota Camrys were (and are) pretty much only driven by the 50+ crowd. Grandmas, upper-middle-class suburban housewives who sit at home and read Consumer Reports all day, and aging hippies/college professors/IT nerds such as my dad, who has owned an ’86, an ’89, an ’00, and an ’11. NO ONE puts custom wheels, tinted windows, trim mods, special paint jobs, etc on a Camry in Michigan. The vast majority sold are baby blue or hearing-aid-beige “LE” and “XLE” models with marshmallow suspensions and plastic hubcaps, cruising in the left lane at 67 MPH. The ultimate dork-mobile. I would argue this is probably the case throughout much of the Midwest, but definitely in domestic-heavy Michigan.
When I lived in Sunnyvale, the “SE” models alone seemed to be three times as common, while dealers in Michigan only even stock one or two of those. Many were factory spec, but I saw a ton sporting custom rims, bright red or blue paint, and a lot of factory and non-factory trim mods. Yes, many of the drivers were Hispanic, but it seemed like white people were actually the minority in the San Jose area, in a pure statistical numbers sense (another big difference from the Midwest), so I almost didn’t even notice that part. Camrys were of course the “default” car out there in the same way W-body Impalas were back home, so many of the baby blue LE models were around as well. Yet, the model seemed to have a noticeably less stodgy image than in the Midwest because of its sheer popularity there, and I have to admit… in SE trim, with nice wheels and a good color, it’s really not a bad looking car. I saw a lot of people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s driving them, in the same way young, blue collar Michigan folk drive their shiny Impala LTZs and Ford Fusion SELs. No doubt, it’s a different automotive culture.
So do you all prefer your refrigerators white or beige?
Bay Area native here (and a Camry owner too).
The SE models seem to have a bit less ground clearance with the extra trim hanging off it. I’d worry about that on dry ground with speed bumps and driveway cuts…that could be a bigger issue with snow days.
Fun with numbers:
Looking at the still running GM plants with low run rates that Paul noted. Assuming the Vette is safe because they can probably raise the price enough to make it profitable regardless of run rate, and assuming the Bolt is safe because GM’s rhetoric about “investing in electric cars” traps it into keeping the Bolt, dropping the the models made at the plants he listed, Malibu, ATS, CTS, Camaro and Sonic, on top of the cars they killed this week, drops GM’s total sales through September this year to 1,784,669, which would place GM below Ford and Toyota and only 100,000 higher than FCA. Wonder what Marchionne would think, given his acknowledgement of the need for scale to amortize R&D expense.
Again this is a wholly North American discussion, but I’ll add I wish we had something like the TRL Camry. The nearest we get is the Avensis wagon, a worthy yet infinitely dull device with all of 143 hp.