Last weekend’s attempt at pinning down the Ten Worst Engines ever was lively, educational, and stayed very civil. So let’s take on the opposite end of the spectrum: the ten best engines ever.
Obviously, it’s a bit harder given the lack of criteria. Bad is…obviously bad. But what makes an engine exceptionally good? Performance? Efficiency? Durability? Running quality? Looks? Affordability? Well, I’m going to let you mostly sort that out, but I’ll suggest one or two things: First, any engine needs to be considered in its place in history; meaning its qualities should (obviously) be compared to its contemporaries. Second, realistically, it should to be the overall balance of qualities that makes a engine superior, and without any significant shortcomings. Yes, some engines might have excelled in one or two categories, but unless an engine was well rounded, it’s not really going to deserve to be one of the very best, in terms of passenger car use.
I regret putting a 1965 cut-off on the last debate, so the whole of passenger car enginedom is up for consideration, but realistically, it’s a bit harder for most of us to really debate the merits of the 1903 Lanchester, despite its many superlatives.
How about the Navistar 7.3 (Powerstroke)?
Good call on the 7.3. I’ve seen otherwise worn out F-550’s sell for crazy money at auction simply because they had the 7.3.
Plus, they were in everything from F250s to farm tractors to OTR semi tractors to Wayne Lifeguards. In the diesel market, I’d say it ws the best- yes, better than the 5.9L Cummins.
Don’t shoot!
The T444/T444E was not used in OTR semi tractors or ag tractors. The only thing that IH put it in was MD trucks.
I could have sworn that I saw one in a tractor at some point. Aftermarket swap?
I counted the IH 4900 as an OTR tractor. Probably shouldn’t have. Still a versatile engine, though!
Lots of great engines so far, but one of the top one on my list would be the Ford 335 series engines, specifically the 351 Cleveland. It really incorporated the best of American V8 engine design in one engine. Unfortunately it was released just as the muscle car era was ending and only a few truly high performance versions were released, while the majority ended up as lo-po smogger engines.
There are many great engines and “The Best” is obviously a very debatable subject. However, I have a nominee which I propose should hold the title until someone produces a contender which can surpass the gestault of its history, output per liter, AND advanced (for its era) technical specifications:
In production in varying displacements (1.3 to 2.0) without fundamental changes from 1954 to 1994.
Four cylinder in-line all-aluminum block (with steel liners)
All aluminum-DOHC hemi-heads using a double-row timing chain.
Sodium-filled valves
Forged, nitrated crankshaft with 5 main bearings
Finned bat-wing aluminum baffled sump holding seven (7 !) quarts of oil
Sustainable Red-line of 6,000 – 6500 RPM without modifications
Mechanical fuel-injection from 1969 and later BOSCH electronic fuel injection
World’s first production engine with variable valve timing in 1980 (VTEC before VTEC)
Used in many winning racing applications with few modifications beyond a twin-plug head
122HP from 1779 CC in 1967
132HP from 1997 CC in 1973
Final 1994 1997 CC engines were turbo-charged for European cars for 153 HP.
Consider the gauntlet thrown – any challengers who think they can beat this overall record?
Indeed, some pretty strong credentials for those Alfa motors.
…and yet being stranded by the roadside is something Alfisti don’t find particularly annoying….;)
I reckon reliability should be high on the the list for “the best” engine, though…
No idea what you’re talking about… ” Stranded on the side of the road…”.
My Alfa is my daily driver, has 218,889 miles and climbing, and has NEVER left me stranded… The starter went for a dump while it was garaged, but with a new one, NEVER fails to start and run.
First, turn of the key, every time.
Overtaken an Audi S4 twin turbo, Juke turbo, Volvo T5, Mustang GT on the highway. The expressway is where the 3.0 V6 Alfa Cloverleaf sings.(Award winning engine numerous times… Look it up)
Sure, some of those cars are quicker at a light, but they run out of steam on the top end.
Trust me, Alfas have their issues, but these engines have a mystique about em that makes Italian cars fun to drive.
You say you owned a Yugo? Your AAA roadside assistance must’ve loved you.
Just kidding. 😉
🙂 🙂 Actually not, I would never called them, as almost anything short of snapped cambelt is do-able on the side of the road 🙂
Seriously, joke in Europe is that if you haven’t been stranded at least one by your Alfa, you haven’t owned it. Trust me, I see a lot of them around here, know few people who owned them and I tell you, you are lucky 🙂
Alfa engines do have certain attraction (especially noise they make 🙂 ), but with Alfa electrics, they can’t win all battles. And really, winning “The best engine…” competitions, especially those by “reputable car magazines” is rather unimportant, because it say nothing about reliability…take Northstar or even worse, VW tsi 1.4 170hp….
All jokes aside… I wouldn’t call the Alfa 3.0V6, the best or most reliable engine, misha…
It is very strong and energetic, but without proper maintenance… It will surge and run like crap, and not even think twice about letting you know it.
When I first saw my Alfa 164S, I was attracted to it’s sporty looks, I test drove it, and then wanted it even more.
Even though, in my mind, I was like “Awesome car, but this is too good to be true, this car is probably only reliable like 3-5 months out of the year… Afterall, it IS Italian and they certainly aren’t known for their reliability.”
Wrong was I. My Alfa is my autumn/winter car, usually taken over for my Datsun 200sx, which after being restored and painted, is my spring/summer car… So my Alfa is usually garaged part of the year.
My Datsun hasn’t come out since last October 2014, and my Alfa hasn’t gone in the garage, yet… It’s working overtime, and getting ready to face another winter.
If that doesn’t buck the trend of “unreliable Italian cars”… I don’t know what does. 😉
Harley-Davidson Evolution. they would have been dead without it.
For their historical significance.
VW flat 4 boxer
Ford V8 Flathead
Chevy Small Block.
A very short list indeed.
I’d add the Ford Kent and Touota 20/22R motors to that list. The former for its motorsport longevity, and the latter for just plain longevity anywhere gasoline Toyota pickups/Hiluxes were used.
This will draw some flak I’m sure but the Rootes 1390cc – 1725 engine family same motor built from 55 untill 79 47hp through to 120hp in factory fitted tune, very robust and reliable they suited being hotted up by shadetree circuit racers.
A few that no one has mentioned yet:
The Cosworth-Ford DFV formula one engine, the Offenhauser sprint car and Indy car engines (which were mentioned by John but I need to “amen” that one), and the Hall-Scott 6 cylinder and V-12 truck engines.
Citroen 2cv, the essence of what engine must be.
I don’t have broad enough (or technical enough) experience to have a definitive list but:
I have no complaints at all about the two GM cars I’ve had with the 3800 (one series I, one series II) and the current one is over 225,000 miles.
I had an Aerostar with the 3.0 Vulcan V6. It went through 2 transmissions, 3 steering racks, and eventually just completely rusted away, but at 310,000 miles ran like new, and the engine was untouched except for tuneups and one waterpump.
Honorable mention to the Chrysler B/RB big block V8.
Good enough to remain in production for 20 years.
Versitile enough to go from 350 to 440 cubic inches.
Pretty indestructible in its smaller versions. (my 1965 383 was rebuilt once at 100K and is approaching 200K these days)
The basis for the 426 Hemi.
Reasonable power and efficiency for its era.
Reasonably easy to work on. (distributor and oil pump right up front, water pump is separate from the housing, etc)
Ford flathead v8, brought multicylinder power to the masses, 1949 Cadillac OHV V8, grandfather of every modern V8 to follow, 1955 Chevy V8 an engine family that was fully developed over a couple of generations. Falcon light inline 6, reliable, cheap to build and fix. Mopar slant six a tough mill even if it didn’t have seven main bearings. 1970 Datsun OHC six, classic power for the most iconic Japanese car of all time. Jaguar V12, over twenty years of enduring production, the most successful supercar engine in history.
I have not seen it mentioned yet, but the Honda F20C as used in the S2000 sports car. I have one, so I’m somewhat biased 🙂
240HP from a normally-aspirated, 2-liter (120 cubic-inch) engine. At the time it was introduced, I believe it set a record for highest specific output of 2hp/liter of a NA engine in a passenger car.
Also not mentioned so far is the Toyota 1GR-FE, a 4.0 V6 used in 4Runners, FJ Cruisers, Tundras, etc. for the last 13 years or so. Designed specifically for truck use, it’s a very durable, torquey engine. I have one in a 2008 4runner and it’s been trouble-free and returns decent mileage even pulling a trailer.
Chevrolet “stovebolt” inline 6 engines introduced in 1929 and used until the mid 1950s. At the time of introduction, it was OHV design when competitors were still using flathead designs. By the 1950s still compared favorably with the modern engines. In souped-up form, it gave the Chevy V-8s a run for their money. Same for the GMC inline 6 truck engines. Rugged and robust.
The 1960s Chevrolet inline 6s were also good reliable and bulletproof engines.
I may be biased having owned so many cars with it, but I’m going to go with Mazda’s K V6 engines. Co-developed with Suzuki (The 2.5/2.7 in the XL7/Grand Vitara was distantly related), it was very smooth, free revving (The KLDE variant had a 7k redline), and sweet sounding with the right exhaust (honestly one of the best sounding vee-sixes in my opinion). The supercharged KJZEM version (as seen in the Millenia S) is one of the only Miller cycle production engines around. The K8 (as seen in the MX-3 GS) was the second smallest v6 ever produced. The hi-po KLZE version has been swapped into everything from Proteges to Festivas to Tracer wagons to make for one helluva sleeper. Most versions are very reliable too, and the non-interference design means no engine damage if you stretch the timing belt change too far. It was discontinued before it’s time when the Duratec replaced it in Mazda products to cut costs. It’s a shame, I would’ve loved to see how it would’ve evolved in the mid-late 2000s with additions like DI, VVT, etc.
Also, I’m surprised that the SR20 only received one mention so far. I’d also like to mention the Nissan FJ fours, and the VH45DE after the timing chain issues were resolved. The AMC six has been mention many times already, but it too is one of my favorites. I’d also like to nominate certain versions of the PRV, despite the bad reputation that the early Volvo versions received. An aluminum v6 in the mid 70’s was pretty cool stuff, and my uncle (a former Peugeot mechanic) has seen examples with 300k+ in 505s.
I think someone has already mentioned this engine, but the Honda 2.4 liter 4-cylinder VTEC engine in the 2003-2007 Accords. Accelerates like a V6, good fuel economy for its time (24 city, 34 highway) absolutely no problems in 12 years and 150K miles, chain driven and almost maintenance free except for a scheduled spark plug change at 120K miles, valve adjustment and valve cover gasket replacement at 145K miles.
1) Pushrod I4 – Ford 2.3 HSC (May be a cheat since it’s a derivative of the Falcon I6)
2) OHC I4 – Toyota 20/22R
3) Pushrod I6 – AMC/Jeep 4.0L
4) OHC I6 – BMW M30/M88
5) Pushrod V6 – GM 90 degree Family
6) OHC V6 – Alfa Romeo
7) Pushrod V8 – Ford Windsor Block
8) OHC V8 – Ford Mod Family
Chrysler 318 LA block. Had a couple that had high miles and would run great.
Chrysler Slant Six
Mercedes OM601. It just won’t die, it is relatively efficient to boot and not stressed in any way. Can’t find fault with it even if you wanted to. 6/700000 miles easy, when properly fed with fluids and filters (which are stocked at any mb dealer, no appointment necessary). It can withstand deferred maintenance many moons as well, I have seen lots never skipping a beat while being mistreated for years. This would be my choice for the modern era.
Here’s one with 500000 km on the clock.
I don’t know how close the Mercedes 636 is to the om 601, but they would wear out, in about 25 thousand hours, I remember many times standing on a ladder in very cold weather pumping up injectors with a pair of jumper cables and a pair of vicegrips hanging off the glow plug switch on old TK reefers!
you are talking about an engine introduced in 1947 and I bet you see they have nothing in common other than that they are both engines
I would like to cast a vote for the current Aussie Falcon straight six.
DOHC VCT, durable and high performing.
Has dominated taxi duty for years,and Turbo versions are V8 killers.
Have owned a couple and have one now and love its smooth power.
Not sure,but some of its some of its design may be traced back to 1960 ?
It will be sadly missed when production stops next year.
I forgot about the Aus variants of the Falcon I6. Between those and the 2.3L HSC I4 developed off of it, it certainly was versatile.
If I could edit my list I would definitely add it (Also drove two cars with the 250 CI 1V versions, both late-70s Granadas. It was a smooth and rugged unit.)
These are the Top 10 on my list:
1) Toyota 3TC 1.8 Hemi… With less money to build than a muscle car, you can have an 8-9 second 1/4 mile car, that’ll make V8 owners cry like babies. Check You Tube, doubters.
2) Toyota 22RE- bulletproof 2.4 Toyota workhorse turned fuel injected, from the reliable 22R… Top Gear couldn’t even kill one with their Toyota pickup tester
3) Nissan VG30E- Made the list of Top 10 best and most reliable engines NUMEROUS times
4) GM 3800 V6- Very reliable power plant, GM hit a home run with this one
5) Chrysler Slant 6… You simply can’t kill em
6) Ford 250 inline 6- Very dependable engine, tons of Ford F150s can’t be wrong
7) Alfa Romeo Cloverleaf 3.0 V6- Modeled after Formula One race car engines, often imitated never duplicated by others, came in 12v, 24v and the rare Turbo… With chrome intake runners to boot, and sodium filled, too
8) Volvo inline 4- Used in the Volvo 144, DL, GL and 240 series… Very capable of 500,000 sometimes
9) Mazda 13B Rotary- 1.3 rotary, with some performance enhancements will eat many a V8, and ask for more
10) Chrysler HEMI V8- A winning formula that dominated races in the 60’s- early 70’s
* Honorable Mention-
One man achieved 1,000,000 miles on his 1990 Honda Accord’s original engine… Honda heard this and gave the man a NEW Accord… He still prefers to drive his old one. Maybe this is one of the best ever? 🙂
Anyone know the details behind prematurely high oil consumption with the Mazda 2.3, as it (somehow) relates to the PCV valve? With no visible oil smoke…
Given Paul’s generous waiver of the age limitation, I’d first nominate the Ford Flathead, [1932-53] that launched innumerable rodder innovations and gearhead legends.
Second, I offer the indefatigable Chrysler Slant 6 which was a steadfast mill until falling prey to the emissions gerbils.
Lastly and based on my current experience, Toyota’s A Series 4. A tireless and trouble free power plant requiring little care and feeding by its owners and most importantly, avoids angst and grief.
Cadillac V8 – 429/472/500/425/368
Olds Rocket V8 – 350, 455
Chevrolet L05 350 V8
Chrysler 318
Buick 3800-II V6
Ford Windsor family
Ford 385 family
I certainly agree with all the comments here – and would just add;
– Pre WW II: Dusenberg DOHC straight 8, Ford flathead V8
– 1950s: Hudson straight 6 (Twin H), Olds OHV V8, Chevy small block, Jaguar DOHC 6
– 1960s: Ford small block, Chrysler slant 6, Chevy 396/427/454, Chrysler 426 hemi
– 1970s and up: Toyota 22R, Honda CVCC, Toyota JZ, Toyota UZ, Ford Voodoo 5.2
Here are a few based on personal experience, in addition to the usual information and belief:
1. BMC A-Series: Flexible, adaptable, and made for nearly 50 years. Nissan adapted it and made it for decades. A success in economy applications (Minor, Mini, Metro), sports cars (Sprite, Midget), rally racing (Mini Cooper) and track racing (Mini). Great breathing characteristics, strong, robust, and has a nice exhaust note. The low end is very strong—best on any four I’ve driven—which makes shifting less onerous.
2. SBC: What more needs be said?
3. Toyota A-series four: Smooth, quite and amazingly economical. My wife had a 1989 Corolla when were were dating and first married. High miles, carb, with the 3-speed auto. And it was still smoother, quieter and more economical than the Quad 4 in my 1997 Cavalier with the 4-speed auto. Not to mention much more reliable. Easy to work on. Unkillable. Ran many more years after we sold it.
4. Olds Rocket: The Cadillac OHC gets credit for being the first, SCB for sheer versatility and numbers, but I think the Olds was better then both. Growing up around Lansing, MI, we were swimming in Olds V8s. These things would go on forever, with minimal maintenance. Cars would rot out around the powertrain, which is what happened to my 1978 98 with the 403, which my step dad eventually took over. Many remember the doggy 307—a good workhorse, but sadly defanged. The earlier 350 and 403 engines were great, even in the late 70s.
5. Buick 3800: It’s all been said. My step dad had one of these in an Olds 88. Put nearly 300K on it until the rest of the car slowly died. But the 3800 still ran smooth and strong, and gave about 30 MPG on the highway.
Some honorable mentions:
Buick Big Block 455: Amazing low-end—total torque monster. A smooth and quiet brute. Had on in my 1976 Electra when I was in high school. I beat the life out of that car, tranny and engine. Unfortunately, I did succeed in killing it, hence the honorable mention. But it really was me, not the engine: Low on oil, it overheated after hitting over 100 and having the throttle stick wide open. Once the brakes went out, the only recourse was to shut the car off and down shift. Came to a stop without injury, but the engine was damaged beyond repair.
Chevette: Far too crude and underpowered to make a greatest hits list, it really was a tough, tough engine. Despite my best efforts to kill this thing, I didn’t quite succeed. Have to say, when I first got it. It sounded like a sewing machine, albeit a loud one. I soon dispelled that sound, with hooning and lax maintenance. But it still started every time and ran well.
Although it’s too early to tell, I really like the 3.7 in my Mustang. Economical—will hit 28 MPG highway—and strong at high RPM, it’s almost ideal. Nice exhaust note, but the engine itself is muted. I hope it has longevity to add to its other virtues.
I’ll back you on the old Buick V8s as I have a car with the Buick 350, which I understand is virtually identical to the 455 in appearance. It is one of the smoothest engines I’ve ever experienced. When I bought my ’75 Ninety Eight I was also considering Electras and wish I’d had the chance to drive one to experience the engine in its largest size.
My understanding has always been the Buick engines have 2 major weaknesses: an external oil pump, and a funky gear related to the timing. The oiling certainly is quirky…on mine you have to keep the oil level about 1/4 quart below full, or it will aerate and starve the top end, causing lifter tick. I thought it was just me, but apparently this has been a problem for others, too from what I’ve seen on the Internet boards.
yes I have heard bad things about the big block buicks….enough to make me kind of hesitant to ever purchase one (if I was shopping for a 1970s luxo barge)
Lots of good engines mentioned. One I didn’t see yet: the Volvo modular engine, particularly in 5-cylinder form in the 850. Highly durable (frequently do 500k+ km), reliable, power aplenty, smooth delivery, and to top it off the sound it produces is just magnificent.
SAAB H engine. Some have gone 1,000,000 miles with nothing other than preventative maintenance.
One of the true measures of greatness has to be longevity and breadth of use. In those areas the Chevy Stovebolt 6 surely qualifies. It was manufactured into the ‘90s in Brazil.
I’m also going to take advantage of a loophole (Paul wrote “engine”. He didn’t specifically restrict things to car engines.) Maybe the greatest engine of all was the GM 6-71 diesel. It powered everything under the sun for well over fifty years and was only dropped because of emissions laws. Name another engine that was manufactured for as many years and found as many uses in as many places as the great 6-71.
Breadth of use in passenger cars in diesel could be the PSA XUD engines it was an OEM fitting in vehicles as diverse as Lada and Suzuki even the Honda/Rovers and its replacement is used in Fords Citroens Landrovers Jaguars Peugeots and BMWMinis the GM series didnt spread all that far really.
I nominate the search engine. I use it every day, its free and it never fails.
+1 🙂
Mopar LA v8’s
Slant 6
Jeep 4.0
Toyota 22r
Nissan 3.0 V6
Ford 300 I6
GM 3800
GM 4.3L
Knight engine (the one I’ve seen taken apart was from a Willys Knight)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_engine
Not sure it’s a best but it’s certainly cool.
Something made by General Electric or Pratt and Whitney hanging under a jet.
Or a Burmeister and Wain or M.A.K, Wärtsila, you name it any engine sitting in a ship
This is a vast subject ,
can only be treated by decade ,
And listed for each country,
My vote goes on as follows for US built engines :
1910s
Cadillac Flathead V8
1920s
Lycoming I8
1930s
Ford Flat Head V8
1940s
Oldsmobile OHV V8
1950s
Chevrolet Small blocK V8
1960s
Mopar slant six
1970s
Ford Windsor V8 series
1980s
Buick 3.8 V8
1990s
Cadillac Norhstar V8
2000s
not decided
I’d call the engine of the 2000s The Chevrolet LS motors like the 5.3 and 6.0
Personally, I’d also move the Buick 3800 to the 1990s (Series II ones were superb!), and I’d call the engine of the 1980s the AMC 4.0L I6. It’s a great list that’s hard to argue, though….
The southstar does not belong on a 10 best list. Yes they made good power for their time but there are just too many reliability, durability, and service issues.
+1
The Northstar belongs on the GM crap list along with the Cadillac V8-6-4 and 350 V8 diesel of 1978-early 80’s.
Northstar? good engine? hahaha!
The Northstar was a Ward’s 10 best engine for more than one year!
However, while a very good design some problem with either the aluminum alloy or the basic design of the head bolts did make its longevity very iffy. I am not sure if all of the engines are doomed, or just a large number of them. One thing that can be said is that eventually any engine will fail (it might take a million miles).
Lists are for sheep… Cars and products should be bought and rebought on experience, not on one’s opinions, sometimes. 😉
The 1971 Chevy Vega and 1980 Chevy Citation made Motor Trend’s Car of the Year “lists”.
Imagine, the naive car buyers, who bought those POS, because of Motor Trend’s say so?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately new car buyers do not have access to hindsight. And of course the used car factories don’t build cars.
I meant other consumer experience(friends, neighbors, mechanics)… Not, sometimes, paid biased opinions of these car publications.
Your hindsight remark is like, saying they should have a crystal ball or something?
No need to be cheeky.
Has anyone been keeping tabs on just how many nominations we have for the top ten? I lost count when I reached sixty! 🙂
The Austin A-series, better known as the BMC A-Series..
Made for nearly 50 years, it was an engine of the old school, yet it survived emissions requirements that killed its brethren from its era, from 803cc and 28hp (A30) to 1275cc and 94hp (Metro Turbo, although you could get 90hp NA with the Cooper Si package in the 90s) from a tiny SU to multi point injection it powered just about everything during its lifetime.. well over a dozen different cars.
Various attempts to replace it were made, and most failed, nothing could really match its temperament, both free revving and fantastic low end grunt, in addition to fantastic fuel economy, even by modern standards.. Surprisingly durable considering most were run into the ground during their lifetime, when cared for they are quite durable. They also sound fantastic even with a stock exhaust system (single muffler)
The only thing that killed it was the disembowelment of Rover by BMW when they terminated production of the original Mini before disposing of the gibbets of Rover…
Meant to say giblets..
+1 for the A series.
Concur–my favorite four. Successful in every use–racing, rallying, sports cars and economy cars. Cancels out the innate gremlins provided courtesy of the Lord of Darkness. All else will fail on a British car, but not the A-series.
I have to mention the Nissan KA24DE. It’s been a great motor in my Altima, good performance and decent economy, and has only ever needed a distributor (due to an oil leak past the O-ring) in 200k miles. Also fairly noteworthy at the time for being an OHC motor with a timing chain when most were using belts.
I am surprised to see the GM LS motors only mentioned once. I have had zero issues with mine in 135k, and routinely see them with upwards of 250k without needing any major work.
Pretty sure both will outlast the vehicles they are in handily, especially with the heavy winter salting here in Michigan.
My father had a 1931 Auburn sedan with the Lycoming straight eight, and he thought it one of the best engines ever made. My own choices? Ford 289 V-8, Ford modular V-8 and the Ford Kent. I’ll be a contrarian, too, because I had a Ford V-6 Vulcan in my ’94 Taurus that felt a lot stronger than its rated 135 bhp. And it lasted and lasted…Yes, I’m a Ford fanboy, but GM deserves some respect from me, too, so I’ll nominate the Olds Rocket V-8.
Top 3:
1) Chevy Gen III/IV/V (aka LS) V8.
2) Chevy SBC V8.
3) Mopar slant 6.
It seems that putting northstar in the best engine list produced live emotions among curbsiders.
The Northstar was a controversial engine from inceprtion,
It had serious toothing problems ,Hot rodders hated it because it could not be salvaged ,it could not be repaired it could not be tweeked and there was no aftermarket speed parts available for it.
But the fact is that this engine was a technological tour de force, some of it problems are inherent in fragility of aluminium block when coupled with careless owners .
Nortstar saved Cadillac,it would have been doomed without it.
As usual GM style ,as soon as they made it right , they replaced it by a more conventional small block V8 , not because it was a bad engine ,but because it was too expensive to build.
Things change , but GM stays the same, what was done to Buick Aluminium V8 was done to Northstar V8.
The Northstar V8 has for the most part been replaced by an OHC V6.
Lancia V4 engine
Lancia world’s first production V6
Any Lampredi Engine
Any Colombo Engine
Any Jano Engine
Any Busso Engine
Many of you have suggested that the Buick 3800 V6 is best engine. While for worst engine I think reliability is an important consideration (the lack of reliability and engine failures to be more precise), I don’t think reliability is the only requirement to get on the list of best engines. Where the 3800 is lacking is design. After a number of refinements the peak horsepower (without turbo/super-charging is just over 200 hp. GM developed a pushrod V6 of 3.9 liters that was rated at 240 hp. The 3800 was an expedient design when it first went into production (at nearly 200 CID). The best version was the FWD port fuel injection version for the 1985 model year. At this point they could have and should have designed something better.
The 3800 V6 was the ugly duckling of the GM family,
It started life as a harsh , shaky and gutless bastard
but finished its life as a tough , refined and hearty aristocrate ,
This long evolution from 1965 to 2005 is unique in the automotive history
It deserves to be on the 10 best list , to honor its 40 years of continuous ascent , , it served millions of car owners, made fortune for car renters and fleet operators,
was used by nearly all GM divisions ,
Then it would make sense that Chevy’s inline 6 deserves to be on the list as it was in production from 1929 until the 80’s.
Chevy in line 6 cannot be on the list :
Remember its babbit eating habits of pré 1954 engines, (stove bolt years) .
Between 1954 – 1960 it had dropped its babbit eating habits , but it was not tough enough with four main bearings , it was not as good as the ford I6 of the same vintage who had seven main bearings.
In 1961 it got seven main bearings but then the slant six was already out, which was better in every aspect,
In the seventies the 250 chevy engine was OK, but not as esteemed as the AMC I6
The chevy I6 was never the best in class , it was always overshadowed by engines of the same vintage from other manufacturers.
My opinion of the 3800 is that it is not really the best 6 of its time either. Not the worst, but not the best, and could have been replaced by something better.
Over the years I became a fan of the straight six – Ford 300 and Jeep 4.0. I’m surprised there isn’t some love for the Chevy 235 6cyl. Except for intake manifold gaskets, I have excellent service out of a number of the 3100 CC (3.1L) V-6 in the GM W bodies.
I’m surprised to see the Chevy 350 mentioned so often. I always understood those to have camshaft problems and not very economical.
I mentioned the 235 Chevy. I guess you didn’t read my post.
I havent had time to read every suggestion here but a few that have not a lot of mentions
Jaguar V12 and XK 6 cylinder
BMC A series (noted by some others but simple can work)
The Buick/Rover V8
The Alfa twin cam 1750/2000
Fiat twin cam
Citroen/Peugeoit XUD series diesels
and I always had a soft spot for the 5 cylinder Audis as well.
had a 65 plym belvedere six it would throw two quarts of oil out the breather a week,so it usually didnt have any oil in the crankcase stop at a light the oil light comes on rev it up so the light goes out how it could run with no oil i will never know no coolant no oil ,
gotta be the toughest six ever !
The Toyota 1MZFE V6, Chrysler 3.3, 3.8l Engines, Gm 60 degree V6 Buick 3800, 3300, Gm 151 iron duke and the Honda V6 and inline fours.
The 3800 series II is a very good engine but I wouldn’t quite lump it in with the series I and III engines which corrected several issues starting with the upper and lower intake gaskets, the intake itself which had an EGR tube that was too small and warped causing ingestion of anti-freeze and of course the brittle plastic elbow that broke causing coolant to gush out potentially overheating the motor. Still the after market has solved most of these issues with a steel elbow and a steel re-enforced EGR tube hole with a larger diameter that resists warpage.
It’s also worth noting that GM was supposed to upgrade the 3800 Series III engine with around 240 HP and possibly alloy heads to make it lighter but magazines like CR made it sound like this engine’s OHV architecture was from the stone ages so GM instead decided to upgrade it’s OHV 60 degree V6 family as the High value series and also offer the Global DOHC engines for Cadillac and Buick and later Chevy and the SUV’s as the High feature line.
It is truly a joke to see all these domestic engines listed as “best”. A huge joke. Obviously, dependability wasn’t in the criteria. Yeah, those Fords, Chevys, Buicks. Olds’s and Pontiacs were dependable…as long as you worked on them every day when they broke down. Experience with GM tells me that, and nothing will ever change my mind.
The best engine ever is one that everybody has overlooked, and I had 200,000 miles of experience with two of them (combined mileage..one with 93,000 and one with 83,000..very close to 200,000 total) in the mid to late 80’s, and that is the Toyota 4A-GE Twin-Cam 16 valve 1.6 litre. Nothing before or since has compared to the technology or dependability of that engine for the time it existed. And no one has mentioned it. Those little guys would take a thrashing and just come back for more. In those almost 200,000 miles, neither engine needed one cent worth of repair work. Also, no one mentioned the parent engine of the 4A-GE, the 4A-C, the 4A-FE and the 7A-FE used in the 1982-1997 Corollas. Between my wife and me we owned 3 Corollas with the 4A, and one with the 7A, and the one in the 1992 Corolla went almost 300,000 miles. All the others were flawless and needed only routine maintenance. (The 1992 was bought used with 247,000 miles and had been overheated and had had the head shaved due to the previous owners’ abuse. Sometimes too much abuse is too much even for the toughest engines. We put another 50,000 miles on it before the head repair came undone.) When talking “best” engines, one needs to come down off his “buy ‘Murrucun” soapbox and look subjectively at what is really best.
I put over 90,000 on my RWD Northstar with only oil changes. The Aurora’s Northstar did need (under warranty) a leaky valve cover gasket replaced. The FWD Seville’s Northstar needed nothing but oil changes. That totals about 200,000 miles in the dreaded Northstar V8 which everyone knows is nothing but trouble.
I guess you missed my comment specifically nominating that engine.
I agree you need to consider performance, durability and reliability in equal measure before assigning any engine to a “best” list. I disagree that American engines fall short, even though all of the units on my list were available on mass market, affordable cars.
Sure the Lexus V8 or BMW M30 offered more specific output and had, at least for the Lexus, comparable durability but at what cost? You couldn’t get either of those on what would be equivalent to a $30,000 transaction price Dodge Charger w/ 5.8L HEMI. That Charger gives you fantastic performance and great fuel economy for less money than the cheapest BMW, which has a stressed out, thirsty little four.
The Europeans have struggled with their more affordable designs for a long time. The ’70 Audi 100LS motor is one example.
As for the Toyota 1.6L DOHC if that’s the one in the original MR2 I loved it too but only when driving like the little prick I was back then. Even as a kid that motor sucked with the 4-speed auto around town, there was no low end at all.
For a 4-cylinder I prefer the VW SOHC that debuted on the ’73 Audi Fox. Good low-end torque and also very smooth at higher revs. The Kent 1.6L I had in my Fiesta was similar. The 2-bbl carb helped a lot and I never understood why the Pinto and Capri 1.6L only had 1-bbl but I digress.
The domestic approach of a relatively larger, lazier and torquier engine is good for overall performance feel and also longevity. High strung engines can overcome their limitations but with expensive band-aids like turbos, variable induction, variable valve timing, etc, etc.
Construction needs to be robust ($$$) with these designs as Cadillac found out the hard way with the Northstar. They shoulda stuck to what they knew because the LSx performed at least as well, didn’t have the head stud issue and was much, much cheaper to build. Which means cheaper to keep on the road when it’s old.
I’m one of those guys who had a lot of domestics on my list and upon further reflection I wouldn’t change a thing. #11 would be the GM 3800 and #12 the Volvo redblock, which has to be one of the most “domestic” European engines ever. The Toyota 1.6L DOHC can place no higher than #13 because the overall performance was lacking. As a car guy that’s important to me.
I give the Toyota major kudos for ushering in the modern multi-valve era and for its long production run and broad application, though it can’t match the VW or Kent engines in that regard.
Your ignorance of domestic engines is showing…and even more bewildering is your quickness to boast about engines you never even put 100,000 miles on.
Sorry, but 176,000 combined total on two different engines is NOTHING. I’ve driven crap engines further than that.
I have 180.000 miles on my original Buick 430 from the 60s. I owned a 1977 Cadillac Coupe DeVille as a daily driver with 270.000 miles on it’s original drivetrain (425).
My neighbour has a 1993 Cherokee 4.0 with over 400.000 kms on it, still runs fine.
Yes Toyota had some good engines, and some bad. The best of them all was probably the 2,4 Diesel with 79 hp. The worst, you can ask anyone with an oilsucking 1,6 or 1,8 VVti with a new shortblock.
I forgot to mention the Honda F23A1 and the Nissan KA24DE. Those proved themselves to me too. And while we’re at it, there is also the SR20DE first used here in the 1991 Sentra SE-R and the Infiniti G20. Now THAT was a great engine. That 1991 SE-R of mine was way overpowered, but they meant it to be that way and I loved it that way!
A note on the above post: the 7A-FE was only used from 1993 to 1997 in the Corolla DX and LE. The 4A-FE was in the base Corollas and in 1996-1997 the Corolla CE. Sorry about that.
The KA24DE is rubbish, they’re known for blowing head gaskets, and burnt valves.
If they were so great… WHY would most 240sx owners go for the SR20det or RB20/25/25det(t) swaps? Yes, these are turbo engines… But if the KA24de is so great, why not turbo that?
The KA24e single cam, is a much more durable engine:
1) They take to boost a lot better… No building up of the bottom end as necessary as the KA24de
2) Higher hp numbers attained on boost with the KA24e
3) NON adjustable valve lash… So no adjusting of the valves necessary, unlike the KA24de twin cam
4) The D21 Hardbody trucks run the KA24e… Very durable workhorse of an engine
I loved the KA24e Turbonetics on 10lb boost, I had in my 90 240sx hatchback…NEVER a problem.
Somehow the notion of reliability and repareability is confounded by some curbsiders ,
the Northstar was a reliable engine , 100 000 miles without an issue was common,
but they were not repairable ,once the Northstar broke down it was scrap aluminium .
In some, and perhaps most, cases that is true, but some engines were repairable. I found something in the Cadillac Forums that suggest the alloy was changed and this led to more failures in the late 90’s. It is also suggested that most Northstar engines do not fail.
The Northstar was not the engine that the 1949 OHV engine was. Nor was the 472-500-425-368.
AMC 232/258/4.0 six tied with the Dodge /6. The predecessor Rambler 199 was a tough old beast too. The ’61 Rambler beater I drove in the 90s out of poverty ran on maybe 4.5 cyls and blew a lot of smoke, but it just kept wheezing along.
Toyota 20/21/22R four. I had one in a ’79 HiLux and despite terrible abuse from a 17-year old idiot, it refused to fail.
Volvo Redblock in all incarnations. The B230E in my ’91 240 that I’ve had for six years has never let me down. Even after sitting for six weeks, it fires right up. Idles like crap but it always has.
My current main ride has a BMW N55 six. While it’s been voted Engine of the Year several times, I’m not sure it’ll achieve the longevity of any of the above, but it is by far the most entertaining engine I’ve eve experienced.
The 4 cylinder engine in my 1997 Toyota Camry. Not one oil drop in 110k miles.
Only issue was getting the timing belt changed on a routine basis. One Toyota dealer installed it wrong which caused the timing to be off causing pinging. Took it to another mechanic who fixed the problem.