Women make up approximately 49.5 of the world’s population, but they don’t appear to make up 49.5 of the automotive enthusiast community.
One of the greatest things about this website, unlike some other enthusiast groups, is its sense of community, its lack of trolling and unsavory behaviour, and the great set of voices who contribute and comment daily. When I look at the names of the Curbside Classic community, however, I notice the names of our beloved Curbsiders tend to be names like Bill or Dave or Pete. We want to let the world know that Curbside Classic welcomes people of all genders, races, backgrounds, religions and sexual orientations. And personally, I would love to know just how many of our loyal readers are women.
Some people find it all too easy to stereotype vast groups of people. I’ve heard the “women don’t like cars” rubbish before. Really? All women – all 3 billion plus women – don’t like cars? Nonsense. My best friend is a woman and drives a Toyota Supra with a giant wing on the back. Her sister drives an electric yellow Mazda RX-8, while their mother has two modified Nissan Skylines. Those ladies are most assuredly car enthusiasts, I can tell you.
Just finding an image for this article was a glance at the prejudice female automotive enthusiasts experience. Typing “female mechanic” into Google image search reveals a disproportionately high number of sexy Halloween costumes and little in the way of actual female mechanics, who I know exist. I’ve heard of all the crap female gamers get from many members of the video gaming community, and I sincerely hope that female car enthusiasts don’t receive the same poor treatment.
If any site can make female enthusiasts feel welcome, I believe it’s Curbside Classic. So, if there are any ladies reading this right now, please say hello in the comments! We welcome you with open arms! Or, gentlemen, if you know a woman who visits this site or a woman who you think would really appreciate this site, we’d also love to hear from you.
Related to cars, I can attest from years of active duty flightline maintenance in the Air Force, that females were some of the best aircraft technicians I worked with – in a very male-dominated field.
That’s a good point. I wonder do women like cars in a different way leading to a different angle. I imagine (myself includes) many guys’ interest is a bit anoraky. We are very encyclopædic in our knowledge and I think this isn’t a female trait which is why women are less likely to be nerdy about things. There are very few women car designers: I know of three or four. And I think sexism in the industry has steered women designers into colour and trim and away from the “guy stuff” where they are up against hairy engineers with some cave-man attitudes. That’s an awful waste of talent, with respect to colour and trim people who are, in my limited experience, rather brilliant at what they do.
Reminds me of this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Dagenham
A little bit anyway.
Good question, I have always been kind of curious too.
Jana Lingo used to contribute here. It has been awhile since I have seen anything from her, and a little googling indicates that she may have passed away a couple of years ago. http://www.semissourian.com/story/2118331.html
Her last entry here was a capsule on a Dodge Stealth in June of 2014 after being pretty prolific for about 4 months, and it appears that she died in July. Which is a loss here, as I always enjoyed her perspective. A page with all of her CC stuff is found here. https://www.curbsideclassic.com/author/jana-lingo/page/3/
Oh jeeze, looks like you may be right. She had her own blog and that looks to have stopped too, and her posts talk about Memphis as well.
53 is too young for someone to pass. RIP Jana, thanks for the contributions.
I had no idea…very sad to hear that.
Oh dear. I so enjoyed her posts.
Wow. This would be her. This obituary is from her (and my) hometown newspaper.
That’s really sad to hear and I can’t believe it’s been 2 years (probably because I remember her articles so well). It seems like she was here just yesterday and may she rest in peace. Thanks for finding this out James.
Wow . . . That’s really a shame; I’ve read some of her articles and they were great stuff. Maybe a rerun of some of her greatest hits in memorium?
Sorry to hear this. 53 is way too young.
Wow. I had no idea this happened. Saddened to hear this. She is missed.
A lady gearhead, race-driver, & engineer who helped win the Battle of Britain:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Shilling
The nickname for her invention is technically accurate but unfortunately, easily abused by the vulgar.
My parents have a female friend who owns a Galloway. I assume she works on it herself.
For anyone not familiar with Galloway, they were built in Scotland in the 1920s, aimed at women, and built in a factory largely staffed and run by women – most notably Dorothee Pullinger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doroth%C3%A9e_Pullinger
Thanks, interesting. Lady bikers are rare; I always do a double-take when I see long hair from under the helmet (though some guys are like that).
I suspect many get into mechanics if their fathers involve them in projects.
My brother;s daughter is a very intelligent hot shot divorce lawyer and she rides some powerful motorbikes.Her father introduced her to bikes.He was service head for harley Davidson and Buell in another Oz state.
Speaking of Ladies In The House, where’s Gem Whitman from the UK ? I haven’t read any comments from her lately, or did I miss them ?
Was just wondering that myself. Haven’t seen any comments from her in ages.
I’ve wondered too.
The reality is that CC,like many/most sites, does have a certain amount of regular churn. Some readers drop off, others come. It’s just how things work on the web.
How about Lynne Vogt and Laurie Boussom
I, too, miss Lynne. Her Jessica Savitch / Malibu piece was outstanding, among others.
+1 Gem, you’re missed.
+2. I was wondering also.
+1. Gem always had that dry brit humor, always enjoyed her insights.
Gem’s comments were fun to read. Lynne Vogt was quite a character. Both are missed.
+1
I’ve been using the same excellent Subaru-only shop since we bought our ’01 Forester 11 years ago. Starting maybe six years ago I began seeing a young woman in the shop, doing cleanup and apparently learning as an apprentice of sorts, and finally realized that this was his daughter. Well, last year Steve retired, Mary is the new owner, and not only has the quality of the work stayed the same, but the cranky old computer and printer Steve held onto have been swapped for smaller, swifter and much quieter machines. And when I had some problems with onboard electronics, Mary repaired them for free, saying quite frankly that she needed the practice. That’s enough to make me stick with Subarus!
Longtime Lurker, but I would say that despite being an earnest attempt to open up dialogue, some of the above comments would probably point to why there isn’t actually a lot of female participation on Curbside Classic, nevermind folks of color, LGBT enthusiasts, etc.
In my time of staying in the shadows it seems that the majority of enthusiasts that comment here are White, Male, Older, Conservative and speak in a lot of “in my day” terms that paint a rosy picture that’s rather escapist of the now.
It doesn’t seem that open to dialogue from alternate perspectives for many of the “others” to have their own interpretation of that “then.” Or that now for that matter. It’s a bit better, but some of the comments you see on a regular basis here fit in the “don’t read the comments” realm or seem like mansplaining 101. It might be space for a certain archetype to pine and lament for an America that once was more reflective of how they interpreted culture, and that’s fine. Just don’t expect others to engage in that with you.
You’d have to perpetually be in a Joan Crawford vs. The Pepsi Board of directors mode to comment here.
Thanks for commenting, and for your candor. I can totally see where you’re coming from; this is an intrinsic problem on car-oriented web sites. And it’s one that I try to avoid getting out of hand, and make sure commenters don’t cross certain lines, but the very general tendency in tone you describe is effectively impossible to change. It’s the reflection of a large percentage of our commenters who love old cars and often miss the times they represent.
It’s also an inherent limitation, because the site is focused towards older cars, thus bringing out a lot of views that tend to go hand-in-hand with that.
I would like to think that in relative terms, CC is not as bad in that regard as perhaps the typical older-car site.But perhaps that’s wishful thinking.
I have come down very hard on some commenters that continually gave voice to negative/discriminatory/exclusionary/misogynistic feelings and opinions. They are not welcome here, and will not be tolerated. We do the best we can….
And it’s also important to remember that the repeat commenters here represent a very small minority of our total readership. One way to change the atmosphere is for more lurkers to speak up, like you have.
I participate in a Slack (a realtime message board) for people who are leaders (management, mostly) in technology companies. That crowd is overwhelmingly white and male. We’ve had some wild discussions with the nonwhite, nonmale people there about their experience on the Slack — and it comes down to this: the way we all write makes us seem like a club to which they will never truly belong.
I have to think the commentklatsch here is much the same.
I rather like the feel here. But I’m white, male, conservative, and …well, older is a relative term. I just turned 49. Anway, I feel right at home here. But I can see how someone who’s a woman, or nonwhite, or nonconservative, or… wouldn’t feel like they belong in the comments.
Heck, I’m white, 46, quite liberal and feel comfortable here but well aware that some of the commentariat skews more conservative and older (or at least more experienced in older Americana). So I tend to write about (and comment on) more of what I am comfortable with which doesn’t always fall in with the predominant flow but I think sometimes adds a bit of flavor (as does everyone’s unique area of interest). I still read just about everything and have my own observations that I don’t necessarily verbalize which more than likely happens to more of us that one would think based just on what is evident on the surface.
Anyway, it’s good to hear from a lurker that may in fact read (and possibly enjoy) things and have viewpoints that are a bit outside of the mainstream here even if they don’t usually comment on them. For example I thoroughly enjoyed the rerun of Lee Wilcox’s Yamaha 650 post yesterday even though I noticed there was barely any new commentary – but what was there already summed up my own thoughts and added much more info already. So it’s an example of something slightly different and still hugely interesting (to me) even if I wasn’t compelled to actually add my $0.02 to the mix since I didn’t have anything constructive to add…
I think there’s more of us like this on here than people sometimes realize. My main interest is the cars of the 80’s, mainly imports due to my own experiences. However, I’ve gained a thorough appreciation and a ton of knowledge of earlier and more domestic stuff by being here though, and I know others have had the reverse happen to them as well. Just because a post about an ’79 Caprice is pretty much guaranteed to run the comment section into a triple digit count does not mean that’s all we are interested in or write about…But if there is a different viewpoint I’d love to see it expressed as it only adds to everything and sometimes takes the commentary in a completely different (and interesting) direction as others seize on it.
Jim Grey: Are you saying that you think attempting to type out posts with good grammar and sentence structure is keeping people away from here? (I noted your comment: “The way we all write makes us seem like a club to which they will never truly belong”). That’s someone else’s problem if they cannot comprehend good English, is it not?
I chanced upon this site while looking for any interesting tidbits on the Internet about 1964 Falcons. I am 43 yrs. old, white, male and fairly conservative. I received my ’64 Falcon as a present when I was 16 and had no notions of political anything at that time. I also know plenty of other folks who are white, male and conservative who have little to no interest in old cars and are frankly •scared• to ride in my Falcon. It sounds like the inference you are making, Jim, is that posters should consider ‘dumbing down’ their posts in order to be more ♦inclusive♦ and thereby attract a more diverse group of posters? Bit of honesty here: I know reasonably good English and endeavour to use it when typing things out. I will never willingly use bad grammar, poor sentence structure or misspell words just to be inclusive and appease any illiterate morons who chance upon one of my posts. I, for one, am *glad* the quality of writing on this site is so good. If that is somehow intimidating to others so be it.
People post when they want to post and since there’s no gun to anyone’s head there’s no way to control WHO types out what. This is as friendly an Internet place/site as I’ve ever run across. I disagree with the last sentence of Patricia The Lurker’s post.
I think you’ve made the wrong inference, Carter. I don’t like to speak for others, but I highly doubt Jim was specifically talking about spelling, punctuation and grammar when he said “the way we all write”, And to infer that he is implying we dumb down the way we speak is pretty out of left field.
What I’m sure Jim means when he says “the way we all write” is the experiences we discuss, the opinions we hold, talk of the “good old days” or our backgrounds. That sort of thing.
Also, it would be insulting if someone were to suggest “dumbing down our writing” to encourage more diversity. That would just be offensive to suggest.
+1. You’ve misunderstood Jim’s comment. I know he would never suggest that.
Oh, I just meant that the nature of the conversation in here could possibly be all white-male-older-conservative somehow and feel alienating to people who aren’t part of that group, and prevent them from commenting. I really value all voices and would love to hear them.
I find it interesting that political conservatism shows through on a site where politics doesn’t play a large role. And yes, I am on that end of the spectrum. I once sent a photo of myself to a website where people guess things about you and nearly 70% pegged me correctly just from that!
Interestingly Paul, I’ve never been completely sure of your political leanings. That means you’ve done quite well keeping them out of your writing. Not that I’m asking, just making the point that the site is quite free of politics as far as I can see.
Oh good; that’s precisely my intention: Keep ’em guessing. 🙂
Paul is a lost Bellamy Brother.
He’s an old hippie… 🙂
Bellamy Brother? I had to look that up. Not really…
The problem is that “hippie”is an extremely big tent.Too big. And although I might once have been found in a little corner of that tent, no more. “Old hippie” had become something of a pejorative, at least in this town, where there really are a good number of genuine old hippies.
I prefer to keep changing often and continuously enough so that easy labels don’t ever quite apply. Minor aside: I voted for Ronnie back in the day. And I was rather enthralled with William F Buckley Jr. for a while. It’s a life-long learning process, hopefully.
Dan,perhaps Paul is one of the Leyland brothers? Australians will understand this.These days men and women it seems like that old song “everythings political,in its own way”.
And I hope Paul, you realise I was poking gentle fun at you. I never would have figured you for reading Buckley. Personally I always found Christopher Hitchens more engaging and easier to read – whether I agreed with all his points or not.
Avoiding political discussion is also INCREDIBLY challenging given this hobby, when the laws and regs as well as the industry itself are literally infested with it. Theres a fine line between discussing policy and the beauracracy and getting political leanings into it.
When discussing certain aspects of this hobby, it definitely feels that my hands are tied, since in order to make a valid point or point out the obvious, certain things are forbidden. That said, I definitely get the reasoning behind it. Things can get real ugly, real quick.
It can slice both ways at times, I think the Internet has made idioms more literal than they are, as “good old days” has practially become an epithet. And while some may use that phrase as an all encompassing “I miss when Cadillacs were Cadillacs, and while I’m at it, I miss mccarthyism, smoking, and spanking my secretary’s butt without recourse damnit!” But I think most users of the phrase miss aspects of car design(or whatever it is in context) that just by technological progress are obsolete. I just think it’s odd to tie the social baggage of a time into an inanimate object, and I speak on this as someone who has no nastalgia of the time born way later than 3/4 of the cars featured here.
When I hear people talk about the ‘good old days’ what I’ve found they are referring to is when they were young and their lives were simpler and so they wax nostalgic about that time. And it usually involves a car or two. But those same folks also don’t want to give up their air conditioners and the better medical treatment they receive today!
I recall hearing older folks reminiscing about the old times and how they wished they’d have kept their 1st car. I figured: The best way to avoid wishing you’d kept it . . . is to keep it! So I did. Admittedly, if I didn’t like my first car I would’ve sold or traded it; I’m not so nostalgic that I’d keep something I didn’t like.
Agreed, still have my first car after 11 years, and I’m not done making memories with it yet!
Liking a thing from an era doesn’t mean I necessarily like the era, and if it still exists in the now and I enjoy it now it’s not really nastalgia. Ironically I legitimately can live without A/C, not because I long for an era without it, but because I just plain like hot humid summer weather, can’t get enough of it!
Liking a thing from an era doesn’t mean I necessarily like the era, and if it still exists in the now and I enjoy it now it’s not really nastalgia”
Said it better than I did below. Even liking MANY things about an era doesn’t also mean you want the whole era to come back or that you have rose-colored glasses. Any more than saying a person who advocates for progressivism automatically must like everything else about today.
Patricia, thank you so much for that.
As a contributor and member of more than one minority group, I get exactly what you’re saying. For the most part, though, I’d like to thank Paul and the others who have had my back through moderating when comments have gotten unsavory (which is a really rare occasion). Granted, sometimes things have gotten combative (see my recent ’79 Pontiac Grand Prix post!), but other readers and contributors are quick to point out the B.S. and keep things in check.
*Because* I am different in some ways from some of my fellow contributors and readers, I try to stay authentic when writing and to present my viewpoints almost as an invitation to others who don’t happen to be white, older, conservative, etc. to also contribute and participate.
I feel the different viewpoints shared in this forum are what make this site and community that much more interesting, informative and fun than others of its kind. What I’ve found since writing here at the end of 2014 is that I have a lot more in common with folks I would otherwise have thought were so different from me.
Thank you for articulating so well what I’m sure that more than a few others were ready to type before reading your thoughtful response! I’d love to see other contributors here who are women, people of color, GLBTQ, etc. There’s only so many different facts and things one can read about the same car. It’s different perspectives that shed new light on familiar subjects and thus make for an interesting read and discussion.
Joseph,agree with you,so many fascinating stories of people,their families and cars and holidays.A rich vein of the communality we share as human beings.
Joseph, I always look forward to the days with your posts. You along with Perry Shoar and Lawrence (Jones?) besides being gay contributors have provided tons of great content to CC.
Patricia,the best part of this site for me is the diversity of viewpoints,whether male female or? It is great to see and hear women’s perspectives.
Patricia, thank you so much for taking the time to comment. This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping to get to this post.
In the past or indeed in the present in some parts of the world, I would be discriminated against but even considering that, I still have that cushion of white male privilege. Someone can try to hide their religion or sexuality, but it’s impossible to hide your race or your gender and thus avoid the criticism, dismissal or contempt such characteristics may receive from unenlightened members of our society.
While I hope you continue to lurk, I would love to hear more from you in the comments. Hell, I’d love to read an article of yours. Having gone to co-ed schools and having had the majority of my teachers, college professors and managers be women, it feels strange to be part of a community where women are such a tiny minority. I really want women to have a louder voice here.
I’m tired of the “in my day” stuff from people. If you’re stating facts, fine. But if it’s just an opinion about why “the old days” were better, it’s always so completely clouded by nostalgia. Even if I was a white, middle-aged, heterosexual, Christian, conservative male, I don’t think I would want to go back to the “good old days” (which invariably seems to be the 1950s or 60s with many). I have a great many black, Latino, LGBT and Asian friends, and I don’t want to live in an era or place where these people would be more disadvantaged and discriminated against than they are in the present day.
I realize I just did the “I have female friends” schtick that is often employed by those mansplaining, but I hope my general point comes across in my rambling: that you are a valued voice here and that we want this community to be diverse and welcoming. Thanks again Patricia!
William,i heartily agree with you.When I read your post it reminds me that not all Australians are biased re gender and race.Good on you.
Patricia, thank you so much for sharing this, as I couldn’t agree with you more. I am neither not older nor conservative, and I do often feel like an outsider; probably less so than some here, but nonetheless like an outsider most of the time.
I think you’re also touching upon another issue in that realm: age discrimination. I’m 23, which by the standards of this site is on the younger end of the spectrum, yet I’m no “dumb kid”, as I’ve been more or less called or passive aggressively labeled before. I’m a legal adult with all the same rights as someone twice my age, possess a college degree and a full-time career.
When I write articles, it’s often a constant fear of what some people are going to say, especially what they might say about me or my ideas.
Knowledge should not be determined by the number of years one has, their gender, ethnicity, etc. There’s nothing wrong with being nostalgic about certain times and memories nor is there anything wrong with disagreeing with one’s opinions. But using this to upfront or backhandedly criticize others because they are different from you is not okay.
It’s a group effort among those of us most involved at CC to monitor the comments, deleting the horrible ones, and calling out others for their offensive or inappropriate comments, but it’s impossible to get them all right away. I honestly wish there was a way to block the IP addresses of repeat offenders.
That being said, I think the majority of us here stick together and try to foster a welcoming, open community of car enthusiasts, despite our own personal differences. I truly hope you stick around and feel more open to voice your opinion. We need more people like you here.
I honestly wish there was a way to block the IP addresses of repeat offenders.
I assure there there is. And it gets used from time to time. 🙂 Where do you think some of the worst offenders went?
But occasionally a persona non-grata shows up again on a different IP address.
Mmmmmmmmhmmm.
🙂
Good to know!
Thanks for touching on that point, Brendan. I’m also on the younger end of the spectrum, and there have been a few other younger contributors. I’m sure if people here realized my age, they’d be quick to dismiss the errors I made in my recent ’41 Chevy article because I was “some stupid kid.” But the fact is, I would have made the same mistakes if I was 5 or 85. Just because I’m young doesn’t mean I don’t know anything about old cars.
Brendan:
I’m old enough to be your grandpa, but I always enjoy your contributions to CC. Well written and researched. That’s what this site is about. Please continue!
+1 on all of Tom’s points.
+1000 on the age discrimination
Also 23, and it’s one of the reasons I’ve started commenting here less and don’t bother to submit contributions anywhere near as much as I would like. Combined with the conservationism of many regular readers, it creates a very unwelcoming environment for a gay, more liberal, 20-something. I’m white and male, yeah, but that’s about the only way I fit in here. Patricia’s comment summarizes my sentiments pretty well.
I will never forget the COAL I posted where a couple “grumpy grandpa” types criticized one type of music I mentioned in a single sentence, along with a plethora of other nitpicks and criticisms in that particular article. You’re right in that you have to put up a mental “battle shield” before submitting anything on CC – I will say it feels far less intimidating than most car sites though, as there’s a certain amount of that everywhere on the Internet and Paul keeps things very well moderated and civil compared to, say, Jalopnik or TTAC. (so props for that! Not an easy task) I’ve gotten enough positive feedback on my articles that I don’t regret being involved in the site, but it’s hard to shake the “outsider” feeling.
What’s even worse than being viewed as a “dumb” kid despite having an education and career, is when older people assume that just because you didn’t live through an era, you have no clue about ANYTHING that happened in the world prior to your existence. Plenty of history books and articles exists, and I like reading them a lot… I love old movies, TV shows, old music, and yes, old cars. You can get a pretty good snapshot of the culture in time period just by watching media from the time, let alone reading about it. The condescension and history mansplaining gets old very fast (no pun intended), even among readers who have genuinely good intentions.
Max the interaction and sharing of knowledge between men and women of all generations is what educates us,a vital part of humanity.One of my favourite Australian indigenous songs is on youtube and it is by a proud aboriginal man,Kutcha Edwards,”is this what we deserve”.That song brings me to tears every time,as much as Archie Roach and the late Ruby Hunter.I turned 60 in early June this year and still feel young and have a thirst for knowledge.Met Frank Yamma,indigenous singer,at Womadelaide ,world music festival,in 2010,you should watch and listen to him,a man with a big heart,voice and soul.All the best to you.
+1 on Max’s point on the “you still feel like an outsider and that makes it less welcoming to contribute” and I’m a decade older and stuck it out on CC for a good 18 months early on. But I did feel super constrained by the atmosphere, cars are just as intersectional and stories of wealth inequalities as housing discrimination. I tried hinting at that with my 1957 Chrysler piece but it fell on deaf ears. By that point I recognized I just needed to do my own writing elsewhere.
It was only Perry, really, who reached out to me to contribute occasionally in 2014-15, but it was over a year after I’d finally taken the plunge and joined The Freewheelers, an LGBT focused car club that’s existed since 1978 (and I had known about since I was 19) that also has a strong social media presence, like many, albeit coastal markets that have “alternate” car clubs. It’s far easier to socialize there, less problematic community space and actual regular social gathering and friendship bonds that live off of the Internet.
plus I got a lot of feedback from friends that would read what I wrote here but would question why I was writing for a demographic that more or less, in generalized terms vote against the interest of me and my boyfriend. And said boyfriend pointed out that I’d written a lot, and got not nearly as much in return, other than when CC acquaintances added me on social media, they’d be that odd duck out that didn’t understand the full fledged person that discusses race, class, sexuality and feminism on a regular basis. Because, although my Great Grandmother Clara could tell me why she preferred Torqueflites to Dynaflows, she also told me not to stay, trust and feed people that don’t mean well by you, no matter how well intentioned they might be.
So Max P., hope you understand CC has its place but there’s a number of other outlets, thanks to Social Media, that allow outsiders like yourself to feel welcome and safe. I’m happy to look into different LGBT car enthusiast groups and paste links/email you some if that helps.
@Laurence – Have thought about LGBT car clubs, but I’ve worried I’d be a different kind of outsider as a certified Brougham Lover (TM). The struggle of my automotive tastes not matching my politics or sexual orientation is real…. but hey, I’m open minded.
Who knows, maybe there’s some other young-ish gay weirdo out there that loves 1978 Bonnevilles and Electras too?
Get thee to The Brougham Society. They keep it as apolitical as possible, but the audience there is decidedly probably at least 55% gay men, and a tad bit younger, and I’ve seen plenty of gay guys in their twenties super excited to find pristine Fleetwood Broughams. Malaise Motors on Facebook might be another good place to look.
One thing that might be noteworthy to some is that TBS is run by two CC Alums (Richard Bennett and Tom Klockau), so there is a sizeable crowd of current and former CC contributors and commenters over there.
whoops meant *conservatism* in that first paragraph… damn autocorrect
Could it be a self-fulfilling prophecy, though?
Youre absolutely right in that this hobby does skew white conservative male in demographics. Someone who didn’t check all or even any of those boxes would be missing out on a lot by assuming they weren’t welcome. And the hobby itself suffers without different ideas and inputs.
I speak for me only here, but at the end of the day this is a car forum. I’m here to learn more about cars, hear peoples perspectives and experiences with them. When it comes to the authors/posters here, their gender, color, sexual preference, number of eyeballs, red blood cell count, etc etc gives no more or less weight to whatever facts, opinions, experience or knowledge they have to share. Perspectives on the other hand, can be interesting. So I say welcome to all.
I find it fascinating that the dominant class warfare narrative has swung in the last five years from the usual capitalists VS. working class to one of defining and ranking ourselves based on our gender and skin.
Personally, I find Patricia’s comments troubling and offensive.
I don’t post on here often, but I’d very much like to see all the threads and posts she is referring to that dismiss comments because of the posters’ race or gender.
I dare say that if a lady chimed in about her experiences with a 1972 Buick Electra, or an African-American chimed on cars in the deep south in the 60s or California in the 1990s (for example), folks on here would love to hear that, and would have loved to have heard that 10 years ago!
From my personal experiences, I’ve never seen people kicked out of car shows because of their race or gender. Yes the hobby is mostly male, but when was the last time a woman who drove up in a 66 Impala and had coke bottles thrown at her? It’s just crazy to try to smear car guys with such a broad stroke.
I also find the term ‘mansplaining 101’ to be offensive and dismissive.
Folks on here are also not a ‘certain archtype’, but are rather human beings who come on here to talk about old cars.
I’m not even sure what your Joan Crawford comment precisely means, other than again meant to be being dismissive of anyone of the wrong age, gender, or skin colour.
I come on here to read about old cars, and frankly I’ve spent ZERO time trying to figure out what everyone’s skin colour and gender is. If there are not enough female perspectives, then please post about cars and car culture more often!
I’m going against the tide with this post and I’ll probably hear it, but I really don’t need more of this in my face ‘old white guy’ hostility when I really just want to read about Chevrolet Citations.
Chris in Vancity….+10….I find the same comment obnoxious.
I’ve always enjoyed the largely non-denominational–in all senses—aspect of this site.
Let’s avoid politicizing backgrounds and denominations. The site is very balanced, if not skewed a little toward the left, from my view. Let’s not turn it into a self-flagellation exercise for not hitting some “ideal” demographic target or for adopting the hysterical college campus language of ‘microaggressions’ and ‘mansplaining’. Old. Cars. Preferably on the street.
It is very pleasant and amiable here 98% of the time. It ain’t broke. For the love of God please don’t try to “fix” it.
I don’t think Patricia’s post was intended to be hostile. The article asked for reflections from women, and so far (sadly) hers is the only one. To dismiss her honest comments as “troubling and offensive” does nothing but reinforce her initial reservations about the atmosphere within the comment section.
Read her comment again: “[The atmosphere] doesn’t seem that open to dialogue from alternate perspectives for many of the ‘others’ to have their own interpretation of that ‘then.'”
That’s not offensive — in fact, it seems to have summed up your response perfectly.
Poor Patricia, I wonder if she would have responded at all if she had known that 1) she would be the only female to do so and 2) that her comment would be placed under the microscope all of the guys here.
Patricia, if you are still with us after all of this, I hope you will comment more frequently. The rest of us can’t take your point of view into consideration if we don’t know you. I think that the only reason any of us might know the “demographic” of any of the others is because after awhile, we can feel like we are among friends and can open up a little. Gem and Lynne and Jana did and were welcomed as “part of the family.”
Is ‘Sally Sublette’ a woman? I’ve read a number of posts from ‘Sally Sublette’ on here.
I have no idea. I suppose that if this individual decides that it is any of our business, we will all find out together. Of course, after the thorough examination of Patricia’s comment, I would not blame Sally for remaining in the shadows. 🙂
I knew a comment like this would come; if a woman posts, then one cannot critique or comment in response.
In my life I’ve tried to be fair to everyone regardless of gender. To do anything but would be sexist.
My objections:
1. “White, Male, Older, Conservative and speak in a lot of “in my day” terms that paint a rosy picture that’s rather escapist of the now. ”
certainly this is written as if this were a negative of the site.
2. “…but some of the comments you see on a regular basis here fit in the “don’t read the comments” realm or seem like mansplaining 101”.
Mansplaining is without doubt a pejorative term, and I’m not even sure if it’s possible for men to ‘mansplain’ to other men!
3. “It might be space for a certain archetype to pine and lament for an America that once was more reflective of how they interpreted culture, and that’s fine. Just don’t expect others to engage in that with you.”
Why not? Please do join…and engage about cars!
4. “You’d have to perpetually be in a Joan Crawford vs. The Pepsi Board of directors mode to comment here.”
This is just rude and dismissive.
The underlying tone is very clear: There are mostly old white men on here, which is bad, the world is changing and soon these dinosaurs will be gone and a wonderful new world will begin, so no point in even engaging or posting.
This is not a pro-woman comment, but rather a hostile, dismissive, sexist and racist one; too many old white men whose views have no value, but instead of contributing why I do or don’t like Car X I’ll just make it clear that the present narratives have no value.
Please do comment more on cars!
It’s not my site but I am personally inviting you and would love to hear different points of view; just don’t dismiss me because of the skin colour I was born with and the gender I have…
My response to your comment had nothing to do with the fact that you were critiquing a woman, but rather that you were misinterpreting her comments. You’re projecting bias that simply isn’t there. I still fail to see anything “hostile” in her statements — negative, yes, but that was the point of her speaking up. She felt there was a problem, and wanted to address it; the article was specifically designed to provoke constructive discussion on this issue.
Also, your analysis of the “underlying tone” is more projection — you’re only reading what you wanted to read, not what she actually wrote. I didn’t glean a “hostile, dismissive, sexist and racist” tone from anything she said, and I think that most of the other CC members would agree with me (see the many positive comments above). She never said that the opinions of “old white men” (your words) didn’t matter, just that the opinions on this site are overwhelmingly dominated by those who are “white, male, older, [and] conservative.” This is objectively true. Do not confuse the desire for more diverse opinions with the notion that the current opinions have no value.
This article stated that that the Curbside Classic community would “welcome [women] with open arms.” What we’re seeing in this comment thread unfortunately provides evidence to the contrary — this hyperdefensive overanalysis of what was a completely valid viewpoint to express is completely unjustified and counterproductive to creating a more inclusive atmosphere within the CC community. I feel like I’ve done my due diligence trying to explain this.
With that, I’m not going to engage any further in this conversation. It’s becoming pedantic and unconstructive, and in the end, we’ll probably never see eye to eye on this issue. I don’t want to tell you how to live your life, but I do want to stress that you might want to re-read Patricia’s original comment and many of those in agreement with her thoughts. Nobody’s dismissing you because of your skin color or your gender; they’re merely pointing out that sometimes they feel unwelcome here — this is something that we as a community should always strive to improve.
I respectfully disagree that I have been misinterpreting her comments.
Maybe I’m projecting, maybe you are, but certainly several of her comments were pejorative, even more so as I re-read her posting.
More importantly, while I specifically addressed several of her points one by one, without mockery or name-calling, you instead simply wrote off my comments as being ill-informed, invalid, and undesirable without addressing any points I have made.
So, clearly, some comments are valid and others are not, according to you, based on a very clear progressive worldview.
Another +10 to Chris in Vancity.
Spot on Chris.
“I find it fascinating that the dominant class warfare narrative has swung in the last five years from the usual capitalists VS. working class to one of defining and ranking ourselves based on our gender and skin.”
Answering this would take me deep into politics so I will not say anything more than “Antonio Gramsci and his successors” – I am sure a research would provide many answers.
And yes, let’s keep this kind of nonsense out of this site.
Patricia – I don’t fit that typical demographic (not entirely anyway) and I read comments here which I find annoying or even offensive, but I try to avoid directly confronting them, as I believe that avoiding confrontation is a “house rule”.
It doesn’t deter me from commenting entirely, and I would think that if you read something you disagree with, you could point it out, or at least offer a different perspective, without necessarily having to start a war with them.
The nature of things is that people from certain backgrounds will feel more confident in expressing an opinion than others, because they can casually assume their opinions are “normal”. I would imagine there are more like-minded “lurkers” and even commenters than you think.
Patricia: By all means make more than 1 post. How will anyone get to know you better from only one post? Whether people agree or disagree with whatever you type doesn’t matter. There’s a lot of vintage cars out there and everyone has their favorites and least favorites and their own experiences in said vehicles.
I ♥ Ford Falcons. Maybe you like them, too, or perhaps you think they were some of the worst cars ever offered for sale to the public. Either way: Post! 😀
My wife, Maggie, is quite the car enthusiast; especially when you’re talking the tuner crowd. Just picked up a 2015 Dodge Dart GT, and we’re already starting to go over and budget the inevitable modifications. Her prior ride, a 2006 Kia was thoroughly riced-out.
Unfortunately, she’s completely disinterested in sitting at the computer, reading blogs or joining any kind of chat groups. To her, the Internet is for researching parts purchases.
I went to a national automotive tech school right after high school, there were 3, THREE, female students out of several hundred males during my nearly two years there. Was pretty much how you’d expect for them, students AND instructors flirted with them, their lab work was held under higher scrutiny and a lot of the draconian dress code rules clearly only ever had a male student body in mind – they had hair length standards! I was made aware of that on my first day as a longhaired high school metalhead! – No provisions for women in their quite extensive rulebook, I can only imagine what they went through during registration, let alone their courses. My lab partner during my Ford FACT courses(towards the end of the program) certainly had some stories about her experience up to that point.
Car sites are somehow even worse despite the potential anonymity of it, but it seems like, especially forums, if they can put up with the sexist attitudes, they’ll either get hit on by other members or they’ll get super patronized if they let on to who they are.
Patricia – right on, well said sister. My wife is as much a car nut as I am, just in a different way. I’m also happy to admit she’s a better driver than me, much faster on a cross country blast, but I might have the edge on a wafty cruise. Or maybe that’s my auto g/box…(she has an manual Audi RS4 Avant)
My only nitpick is the “in my day” comment. I’ve no idea how old you are, I’m late 50’s, and – trust me on this – you’ll find yourself saying, or at least thinking this way, at some point in your future.
People, of all persuasions, simply can’t stop themselves doing it. It was who and where they were and still are. It is part of who we all are. As we age, there is nothing more natural than occasionally ‘escaping’ back to our more youthful days.
I’ve been a reader here for some time but this is my first time contributing anything (even if it is just a short comment!) No, I’m not female, but after reading the comments here I though you would be interested in knowing that this site has at least one follower who is a college-aged, white, gay, conservative male. I don’t think my exact demographic is one catered to by many websites but I would honestly say that I have not noticed much of a bias here politically or otherwise. I have been interested in cars my entire life and I think that the reason this one has the most appeal to me is because it often focuses on the cars of the 80s and 90s I fondly remember from when I was younger. I also do find this to be a very friendly and interesting community… maybe I should comment more often…
You’re hardly alone here: https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/wordless-outtake/wordless-outtake-there-goes-the-neighborhood/
Ha! Good link Paul. I stumbled across that outtake recently and I didn’t realize how many of us were LGBT!
Oh, wow…I’d all but forgotten about that one. Hard to believe it was two years ago.
Some of us had a lot of good laughs over that post!
My first impression after reading Patricia’s comment was this same exact article! My guess is there is quite a substantial gay audience here. There are quite a few car clubs aimed at the LGBT community.
Oh, I’m sure the LGBTQ community is quite well represented among the readership here (even among old white males who are prone to nostalgia about cars but not necessarily about history or politics, trust me?), as it is in the collector car community and automobile enthusiast world in general (hello: well more than half the writers for Motor Trend and many other publications, Alex Dykes, 2theRedline, etc). IMHO Paul has done a great job in making this site free of the sort of pseudo-macho crap that still goes on at TTAC (though kinder, gentler Mark is trying to deal with it). I suspect that a lot of folks here just prefer not to put too much of the personal/political on the line given that it is not primarily the focus of the discussion.
Speaking of diversity and LGBT, etc. …I’m pretty new to this site, but there is so much more to CC than I initially thought. I’ve really come to enjoy reading articles (and comments) from such a diverse group of people.
Cheers!
I think you should. 🙂
I’m still seeing a sausage party here, as evidenced by names like “Paul”, “Matt”, “Joseph”. 🙂
What’s a ‘sausage party’? (My name isn’t Paul, Matt or Joseph, btw).
Urban Dictionary defines it better than I could ever hope to:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sausage%20party
Thanks for the link, Buzz. I’d never have guessed that was the meaning.
Now you can go and see the major motion picture playing at a theater near you.
Here in the city of Yazd in iran,there is a Lady in her mid30s who took over her father’s mechanic shop about 10 years ago.at first many men(mostly older conservative men)had not wanted to take their cars to her shop mainly because she was a female.here in past afew years we have been having more& more female drivers who would rather to take their cars to her than a male mechanics.which is understanding.she proved to be a very skilled mechanic specially when it comes to german and american cars.she actually has a built a early 70s chevy impala which sounds very impressive.i have noticed in past a couple of years that alot of men are taking their cars to her
Sounds like she’s worth a write-up on CC…
While I come from a large family with many female members, many of them see cars (or trucks or SUVs) as mere appliances. I thought my oldest sister MIGHT be fairly interested in cars, though the cars she owned for most of her life were those where price was THE priority. Even so, until her husband talked her into buying her 1st Prius, she vowed to own only manual transmission cars as long as she was physically able. The trade-in for her Prius was a Mustang.
One of my younger sisters bought a 70 Malibu as her 1st car. She owned a series of Dodge vans before she bought that car. She bought the Malibu in the early 80s…..aand as far as I know, still has it in addition to her Subaru GT wagon.
One of my nieces was a budding Honda “fan”. Unfortunately, having a baby and having to work to help support her baby has given her little free time.
Does it matter? We can’t see each other.
While your intentions may be noble — maybe you are so enlightened that you don’t see race/gender/sexuality/etc — it is very easy for one to say “why should it matter” and “who cares” when one is not affected. I’ve seen those lines trotted out in an attempt to stifle debate and discussion. I’m not saying you’re doing that, but if female enthusiasts (or LGBT enthusiasts or those from other races) don’t feel welcome or comfortable here, then it absolutely does matter.
There are many websites out there to discuss politics, gender, race, lgbt issues, etc.
I understand your point, but if they conversation sticks to cars, there shouldn’t be issues.
It’s not my site, but figure we’re all here to read and discuss cars/bikes/engines/etc and that should be it.
And that’s why we try to keep the conversation on-topic in comments.
I’m proud of the fact that this may be the last refuge on the internet for people who do not want to read about this godforsaken election. Even other automotive sites have been posting articles, and it just drums up political commentary that is thoroughly unwanted here.
But I agree with commenters above: there are only so many things you can say about a car. We have an extensive list of Cars of a Lifetime articles and other articles that include personal reflections. And the inherent nature of such articles means the discussion can’t just stick to cars: look at RL Plaut’s mesmerizing COAL series, and how his life story was intertwined with the discussion of his vehicles. Imagine reading a COAL series written by a woman, sharing details of not only her cars, her career, her family and her life. I would love to read a COAL series written by a female author, wouldn’t you?
All I ask is high quality, well written articles which is what this site always delivers.
We have good moderators to ensure the disagreements are about cars.
The COALs are great, as they offer stories about diverse cars written from all walks of life. The more COAL authors we have the better, whether it’s a Straight, Caucasian Senior Citizen or a Lesbian Chinese Woman, I personally appreciate all the stories I can read.
If we didn’t want diversity, we’d ban names and pictures from articles and comments.
I cannot recall which of Leonard Cohen’s two books he wrote,Beautiful Losers or The favourite Game,where there is an amusing incident in Canada during a driving and sexual episode and the mercedes benz crashed into a wall at the moment of orgasm.I hope that is not too rude nor offensive.leonard is the singer of course.
As others have suggested, car manufacturing, driving etc are affected by government legislation, and once you start discussing how cars are used (as in a COAL) then you’re just discussing life in general – so how can you keep these thing entirely out of it?
If someone is a 65 year old, conservative, white American male, it might be very easy for them to innocently and inadvertently make comments on this site which most readers would see as innocuous but might be off-putting to a reader like Patricia above.
OTOH, Perry Shoar made a comment on an article Paul linked to above, which managed to offend a closet homophobe (oops, sorry), and some might wonder whether the comment was appropriate given it had nothing to do with cars at all.
On the other hand, embracing can lead to patronizing real fast as the groups of people being discussed increasingly aren’t even part of the discussion. Being noble and enlightened are great personality qualities to have but there is a difference between claiming you are because you ‘learned’ not to be a dick and go on to scold those who haven’t, and actually living it and treating everybody the way you’d treat yourself for any given interaction just by habit, even if you’re not completely educated about someone’s plight.
It is an interesting topic, but it’s a strange place to have it since you’re inevitably going to get the usual sausage fest commentariat(this is my third post in this topic! Ugh!) and put those you’d like to hear from on the spot. It’s kind of like a Mustang forum I used to visit where there was a thread topic with the question “what’s your salary?” That may be fun and interesting for some members to discuss but for me it really wasn’t something I cared to know and felt uncomfortable to share.
This is also a good point Matt. Diversity is a great thing; but it can’t be forced. When it is, it’s not sincere and risks alienating others.
But at the end of the day, everyone who wants to write or comment should be able to, provided it’s articulate and on topic, and if we all get along like we should there won’t be issues.
Well said, Matt!
“What’s your salary?”! That’s hilarious.
Speaking of diversity, females, LGBTQ, etc. …I’m pretty new to this site, but there is so much more to CC than I initially thought. I’ve really come to enjoy reading articles (and comments) from such a diverse group of people.
Cheers!
As a GenXer, I’ve always been chafed by that baby-boomer prejudice that essentially said “real cars died in 1973”, often followed by just-so finger pointing. One reason I love this site is that every car eventually gets it’s due, whether it’s a minivan or a brougham boat or commuter soapbar or a really nice 1960s six-cylinder Camaro.
But at the same time, cars meant something completely different to those of us (primary male and primarily white) from the twentieth century gasoline generations. Cars meant freedom, adventure, cruising, daredeviling, ownership, hobby projects, discovering “real America” and the great outdoors, and maybe most importantly, they meant sex. I don’t know if twenty-first century (demographically more diverse) generations will ever see the automobile as we did. Cars are still technologically interesting and are still status symbols, but they’re on their way out as the cornerstone of our way of life. I will admit a lot of my old car memories have a girl attached to them (or rather the car was attached to the girl). So a site like this one will inevitably revolve around “good ol times”. But I hope we can frame our good memories without being exclusionary or political.
In passing, I’ll say that I had a great female mechanic that never lead me astray. She also seemed like the type of lady you could smoke a cigar with. Unfortunately they dug-out the gas station to build condos and I lost track of her.
Very good article indeed and while I do like cars from other eras I would not want anyone to have to live in those eras again. There was a Chevrolet Advanced Design used in Mississippi Burning, but I do not know how accurate the movie is when it comes to vehicles. When I see an old vehicle I sometimes wonder if the original owner was racist, sexist, phobic of the LGBTQ Community, etc.
I do try to have an open mind and not alienate peoples with my comments since I welcome diversity. Sometimes I feel bad for being a Cisgender Caucasian Male since many of them have made people’s lives difficult. I too cannot believe that DILF article is over two years old.
My cute female neighbour who is a dead ringer for brigitte bardot drove me down to the supermarket today in her 2004 Hyundai getz,a surprisingly capable car despite its harsh ride,low profile Pirelli tyres and mag wheels.She mentioned crossdressers and being the Aussie dag that I am,cheeky also,I said I thought crossdressers were people who were angry with their clothes.
At least 1 or 2 of the commenters above mentioned knowing/being related to female car enthusiasts whose enthusiasm just doesn’t extend to reading, commenting on, or contributing to this site. This immediately made me think of my sister, a dedicated Jeep nut who just scoured the entire state for the particular model of new 2016 Cherokee that she wanted after she finally accepted that her old 1998 Cherokee was at its end. I don’t know if she’d be interested in CC, but it occurred to me that I haven’t done anything to make her aware of it either. So maybe it’s up to us to do a little outreach too. If we’re trying to be a welcoming community here, as William suggests, then maybe it’s OK to literally tell people they are indeed welcome, in case we’ve otherwise failed (unintentionally) to make it clear.
I have never met or known a female who shared my interest in cars ( or motorcycles, buses, ships, or locomotives) or the mechanical/ engineering principles that make them special.
But at the same time, one shouldn’t use anecdotal evidence as a sweeping generalization of an incredibly diverse group of people. Doing so discredits the countless women who do indeed share your interest and in turn contributes to a stifling atmosphere.
R_Henry never said or even suggested women as a group don’t like mechanical topics; he just said he has never known or met a female who shares their interest.
No, he didn’t specifically say that, but it’s hard to deny there’s an implication in his statement that most/all women don’t share his interests in those mechanical topics. I’m not trying to call him out, I’m just trying to encourage the distinction between personal experiences and the actual reality of the situation.
Chris is correct. I speak only for myself.
“Good old times” is because CC is for “timeless” Classics! Get it???? Cheers
Much ado about nothing – I like to read about cars.
To keep it brief…
Would “Good Housekeeping” complain of a lack of male readers?
It’s inherently a niche market.
A female relative of mine once told my brother and me that she figured our love of classic cars was down to that hobby being a very male-oriented one. I remember being offended at that suggestion, which I saw as rather sexist and completely misguided.
The car hobbyist community IS overwhelmingly male, but I for one would be extremely happy to see it more feminized. It’s not that I like cars to hang out with the boys, it’s just that I like cars.
Your comment about “Good Housekeeping” is a bit like that too, lw. Housekeeping and homemaking are not exclusively the purview of women any longer, certainly for folks of my generation (the late Xers, now in their 30s).
However, your comment is valid when it comes to cars, which is still a very male-centric subject. I feel though that fewer men are interested than was the case in previous generations. Among my male peers, who come from a wide variety of racial, national, linguistic and cultural backgrounds, few are “into cars”. The Boomers I know seem much more clued up and interested in cars.
But in terms of gender, it’s clear-cut. I can only recall talking to two or three women who seemed to have a genuine interest in cars — and, as someone who has a genuine interest in women, I did ask quite a few…
I’m not sure why this male dominance in cars is so pervasive and enduring. Women buy and drive cars too, after all. And they generally drive better than men do (at least in my experience). But it’s still a “boys with their toys” thing.
Patricia’s point about CC posters being nostalgic curmudgeons is true to an extent. But I feel there is more tolerance and humour here than in other English-speaking car-related forums.
And I would question the word “Conservative” in relation to CC. Whenever the comments go off-piste and into the political realm, a type of hive intelligence seems to correct this pretty quickly (e.g.: https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/history/back-to-the-ussr-or-a-long-time-ago-in-a-galaxy-far-far-away/ possibly the most lively such discussion I’ve read here recently…)
Some folks here are Conservative, others not. Liberals can be nostalgic too and being young(-ish) doesn’t mean you can’t be interested in history.
So, it would appear that the answer to the original question is . . . one?
I’m sure there are more than one, and it’s always nice to see them pop up when this question is asked every few years. I was very sad to see about Jana Lingo as I really enjoyed her posts.
I regret to see the question getting politicized, I was hoping this site was largely safe from that. Just as we are scolded above to avoid the generalization that women are just not as interested in old cars (even though that seems in numbers to be true), I’d avoid reading the generalization into the response to this article that women as a rule “don’t feel welcome” here because their comment rate is lower than the mens’.
As for it being escapist from the now, I think that is inherently a part of old cars, not the least because you can actually physically experience the escapism by driving around in one, as opposed to visualizing like listening to a record player. The closest second to cars I ever experienced was a wooden racquet tennis tournament where we all played with vintage racquets and wore whites. It was a very distant second to the old car experience.
I sense the main criticism is the air of nostalgia itself that sometimes pervades our threads, in that it is suggested that is off-putting/insensitive/mean-spirited because while those tailfins were darn cool, 1959 wasn’t cool for a lot of people. As an empirical fact there were certainly some differences, but interestingly nostalgia is not limited to the much-maligned old white male WASPS: I’ve heard plenty of older people from minority backgrounds express nostalgic sentiments about the “good old days” who themselves might have been, and likely were, marginalized in those same good old days. So while it’s good to have an understanding of what actually realizing your nostalgia would mean on a grand scale, that doesn’t make nostalgia itself racist, sexist, or deserving of shaming.
Other years weren’t “better” or “worse” so much as. they were “different”. Old cars are a way, maybe the only unloaded way, to have a sensory experience with that difference.
I have been thinking about several things brought up in comments, and you hit around some of them.
The way I think of this place is that I have been privileged to interact here with people of differing ethnicities, political views and sexual orientations. However, these things have all been incidental to discussing old and interesting cars.
Each of us comes from a different place and brings a different perspective. When that perspective brings some new insight to a discussion about a car, it’s all good.
Modern life seems good at finding many things that we can divide into an “us vs. them” over. But I like how this community has at least tried (and with more success than failure) to give us a place to come together over a common interest, even with those who may have a very different world view.
+1000
Thanks JP – I think you phrased that very well.
Speaking as a (deep breath) middle-aged white gay guy, born in Canada but living in London, with former partners of varying ethnicities… I do like seeing other peoples’ point of view, and I must confess to saying “aha!” once in a while when I figure out something about a contributor when reading one of their posts.
Non-Car related question adam_b: Since you live in London have you ever run across an old VHS tape or a gaggle of older VHS tapes that are referred to as “pre-cert videos”?
Sorry Carter – I’d never heard of them and had to look up the term to understand what you meant.
The common mistake people make is using our times as the yardstick to determine how people who actually lived in earlier times were supposed to view their lives.
People living in the 1950s weren’t comparing it to life in 2016. If they were adults, they were comparing it to life in 1926 or even 1916. And life was better in 1956 for virtually everyone compared to life in those earlier times. (And, in 1926, life was better for virtually everyone than it had been in 1906 or 1896.)
It reminds me of posters who, on this site and the one that shall not be named, wondered how buyers could tolerate the reliability and build quality of old cars, because they weren’t as good as a 21st-century Toyota Camry. The problem is that, in 1956 or 1966, the Camry didn’t exist. So how were people supposed to use it as a yardstick to judge their 1956 Chevrolet Bel Air or 1966 Ford Fairlane?
John Wayne was known to play cards with Rock Hudson. When someone asked him if he knew that Hudson was gay he replied, “I don’t care what he does behind closed doors, the man is a damn good card player.” He focused on what they had in common and not what they didn’t.
I believe the movie John Wayne and Rock Hudson appeared in together was THE UNDEFEATED (1969), btw.
Many, many posts on this thread – very few ladies.
I think the posts are in response to what appears to either be an out and out, or at least, dancing around, a conclusion that because there are few female commentators, that indicates there’s something “wrong” here. I think that’s undoubtedly true at some websites, but I strenuously don’t think it is here, and that’s why I’ve been so loquacious on the subject.
I agree with you, Orrin. I get the feeling as well the implication is that there’s something wrong here since there are currently very few ladies who comment. In the various threads I’ve read through I don’t see an undercurrent of hostility towards women. Maybe I missed the threads that give off an impression that ladies shouldn’t post?
I would encourage women to post their vintage vehicle experiences, but if that’s not their interest we can’t make them.
It doesn’t have to be a post that says “I hope no women show up here”.
When people are making their political views crystal clear in their posts, or talking about something being a “chick’s car” or (and this is very common) talking disparagingly and their ex-wives and being applauded by others saying “Thank god I never married, women just ruin your life, don’t they” etc etc, couldn’t that be discouraging to some people?
I wouldn’t normally suggest people shouldn’t express their opinions, but at the same time there seems to be a rule here, written or unwritten, that this sort of thing should be avoided.
The problem isn’t that there are too many men and too few women, but that perhaps some women may lurk but not post because they are made to feel uncomfortable.
The political commentary on this site is far less pervasive than that of other sites, including those devoted to automobiles. But why would people making their political views known necessarily discourage anyone from posting? It’s not as though there aren’t women on both sides of the ideological divide.
If there is one thing I’ve learned, it’s don’t pigeonhole anyone politically – and that includes not only women, but gays as well. One my friends is gay, and he is well to the right of me on several issues!
The disparaging comments about women, marriage, etc., that I remember were in response to rlplaut’s extremely well-written and engaging “COAL” series. Remember that his first wife hurled a pot of boiling water at him without provocation, and then tried to run him down with a Plymouth Duster. The second wife ended up leaving him for another man. When details like that are a major part of the story, it’s hard to keep the comments focused solely on the cars featured in the series. But these events were an important part of his life story.
If a woman wrote a similar series for this site, and chose to weave the cars that she has owned into her life story that included, for example, escaping an abusive husband, or finding out that he was cheating, it would undoubtedly be well-received, too, if it were well-written. And no doubt spur posters to share stories of sisters, cousins, friends, etc., who were caught in similar situations. Would anyone then accuse them of discouraging other men from posting on this site?
Have you read Paul N.’s views on AMC Matadors?
Dude, I own one and I certainly don’t feel that I’ve been embraced because of it…anywhere.
A chick’s car or a girl’s car are indeed meant to be pejorative, but so are a host of other comments that have nothing to do with gender. I’ve owed a pile of dorky cars, and I’ve heard it all, but I ignore it or fight through it.
There is a Yugo on BAT right now. Have you read those comments? Man I’d hate to be a Yugo owner and read all of that, but get on with it and get some thick skin or get out.
I’d strongly argue that many women today have no problem buying a car ‘labelled’ a chick car; because A) They don’t care what some guy on the intraweb said B) They have self-esteem and C) They like said car and want to buy it with their money.
And women never feel like they’ve given up something they enjoyed in life from a marriage? I know a few women who’d strongly disagree, and they’ll gladly make some despairing comments about their ex while they are at it. I’m glad I’m not married, and no, not because women ruin your life, marriage and kids do! lol
If you refer to my comment on one of the R. Plaut posts, I don’t think it was meant as women-disparaging, it was about crappy relationships as a whole, regardless of who was to blame, and I would have made similar comments if it were a woman talking about an a§§&=)e husband…
Same way in the other kind of chat rooms…despite the handles employed.
My comment was much like JPC when he said “so the answer to the original question is “one”?
Personally I don’t care what the particulars are regarding someone I speaking with and given screen names and avatars it is not always obvious. My mother is not someone with whom you’d like to talk cars – she always treated my father’s Mustang as an automotive “mistress” to be jealous of. My sister could likely be engaging to talk cars with simply because her economic situation has forced her to drive some real crappy cars over the years and has boosted her automotive knowledge by necessity.
My wife takes pride in her ability to drive stick shift and has a deep love for the Fast and Furious movies because of the CARS more than Vin Diesel or Paul Walker or any of those guys.
My 2 year old daughter already takes her little Sophia the First “scoot car” and flips it over on its side, grabs her plastic kitchen utensils and pretends to be fixing it. (She also loves Counting Cars and Fast and Loud.)
I have friends who happen to be LGBTQ who come to me for automotive advice, And one who knows far more about Jeeps then I ever will.
My point? I enjoy a diverse community regardless of the site I’m visiting. In some ways I’m a little sad that this posting didn’t reveal more ladies here who were either lurking or we didn’t even realize they were ladies when we read their “usernames”.
I just come here for the cars, despite my best efforts I have been unable to instill autoholism in any of my 3 daughters; 1 Corolla, 1 hand me down Grand Am, and one daughter who lives in Eugene and drives a Subaru Forester (it’s true, she really does..What do they put in the water out there??).
My wife enjoys fast and fancy (current 328ix), she drove my Road Runner and Daytona a couple of times (that was a while back) and has driven my Mustang exactly once and makes “sic” fun of me for keeping it around. However….I can safely say not one of the women who attempt to keep me in line will ever peruse this site.
My son (97 Civic coupe) may eventually get past the “Fast and Furious” stage and maybe there is hope there. (Has he ever driven my Mustang?? OH H3LL NO!!)
I come here for the cars and the stories, that’s all. The more the merrier!
My ex-wife turns wrenches for a living, but I’d hardly call her a car enthusiast. While she excels at what she does, she has an point A to point B mindset with respect to cars.
One day when she was working on my Grand Prix GTP, I went to check on it. She said, “Meet me over in my bay after you go get us some lunch, and we’ll eat while I work on your car.” I asked, “Which one is your bay?” She pointed and replied, “The one around the corner from that lift with the old orange Chevy over there.”
That “old orange Chevy” was a 1964 Impala SS Hardtop Coupe with the legendary 409 under the hood.
Lack of enthusiasm aside, she was the best I’ve ever known at tracing weird a$$ electrical problems on today’s sophisticated cars… much to her chagrin while she was at a dealer and working flat rate, and thus not paid for ‘diagnostic time’. Thankfully, she gets paid hourly now, but the caveat to that is she can’t work on her own cars anymore at work like she could in the good old days.
I am and I do read pretty much everything on here (Been loving Rlplaut’s recent COAL series) but I don’t really have much to contribute other the occasional titbit.
What’s all the hubbub about? I have always felt this site was open and welcome to anyone who wanted to comment on the automotive (real and toy)/railroad/lawn mower/shipping/heavy equipment worlds.
I would certainly enjoy hearing from anyone new – even someone who was a hippie a very long time ago – in a small corner, of course!
i recently had the opportunity to meet Paul and some of the posters here at the Lane Museum in Nashville. I had a GREAT time! For me, it was simply about being around PEOPLE who cared about CARS (like me!). When I stumbled onto this site, I was amazed at the wealth of knowledge displayed, the “curiosities” that I had the chance to learn about, and the general “comfortable” feeling. Gender/race/etc. was never a consideration, AND unless they were defined by an avatar, it was the least of my considerations; the CARS/STORY was the main attraction. On other sites, as well as this one, I am always surprised when some little tidbit pops out, and I find that the author is female/gay/not a U.S. resident/etc., or has something in common with me! I enjoy ALL input, and if I don’t like/agree w/ the views expressed, I simply move on to the next. Simply put, I LOVE CURBSIDE CLASSICS! 🙂
I do remember a young woman who worked in a RV repair shop around 1990. She did some 5th wheel hitch reinforcement/welding on my old ’70 C10, along with installing brake controller and wiring in the bed for the trailers brakes/lights. She did a good job on the hitch, but mounted the plug too close to the rear wheel so when the suspension was loaded the tire rubbed through the wiring at the back of the plug, causing me to have a wild brakeless ride down the Siskiyous, smoke pouring from the overheated drum brakes, causing damage to the trucks (and trailers) wiring and brakes springs on the scary ride down the hill. The four speed manual’s downshifting braking was just enough to save the day. I also had a flat on the trailer during this incident, luckily it was tandem axle and the second tire held, Turned out the wheel was rusted from the inside. I didn’t even know I had a flat on the trailer until I pulled into a gas station at the bottom of the hill.
I really needed overloads but had not yet installed them, and the truck had oversize rear tires so the low riding combination needed a bit more clearance than was accounted for. She did a great welding job, and the hitch was well up to the job of towing the heavy 32ft 5th wheel trailer.
Lucky for me I found a really great guys who had a RV repair shop in the area, and while I replaced starter, alternator, voltage regulator, battery and brake springs, along with repairing the burnt wiring under the hood, he repaired the burnt wiring on the trailer, along with a new trailer brake controller and redid all the RV related wiring on the truck. He even allowed me to stay the night on his lot and plug in as the repairs took 2 days. And he charged me very little for his work as well.
I worked for dealerships for many years, and don’t remember a single female mechanic in all that time at any of the ones I worked for. I do remember an independent shop in Hillsborough Oregon where a young lady was in overalls and doing heavy duty work on cars.
I too hope Gem Whitman is doing well and just hasn’t posted for a while.
My wife LOVES cars. She is always talking about our past cars that she loved and hated (Her 1992 5-speed Accord LX Coupe is her #1 favorite – regrets not having a manual shift to this day). I just can’t see her coming on here to chat and I don’t know why. I think that maybe her love of cars may be different than mine. She doesn’t have a passion for them like I do. She knows the different models and years of classics, too….but I really can’t put my finger on it. I never even thought about women not posting here at CC!
I don’t see any problem with automobile enthusiasts being largely male. Nor do I sense any problem with largely female knitting clubs. I accept men and women are different, that they have different perspectives, and different interests. In fact, it is precisely those differences that I find make life worth living.
That said, I have never seen nor heard of any sexism, actual or implied, as related to automobile related activities or groups.
Most auto enthusiasts are male. Big deal. Most needlecraft enthusiasts are female. Big deal.
I discovered this site by accident.Have owned and lusted after many classic cars.I do a great deal of research,ex government administration officer,I really enjoy this site and thank Paul and the many other contributors for their kind and considerate stories and the wealth of information they provide.
I don’t have a whole lot to add that hasn’t already been said, and I am regrettably another white male heterosexual voice amongst a chorus of mostly the same. (Ironic given that the specific post asked for female voices and we’ve heard from precisely two.) But I will say that one of the things I value about this site its its inclusion and freedom from overt racism/sexism/general mean-spiritedness. I fully understand there may be many things I’m not picking up on because of my specific privilege (that’s become a loaded term but it’s real just the same) but compared to almost any other forum I’ve visited this one is a paragon of civility. As a relatively young man (age 35) some of the “good old days” nostalgia does wear thin, and I can see the validity of many of Patricia’s complaints. A lack of mean-spiritedness does not equal inclusion. But all things considered I think this place does better than many, given that the Internet has a way of bringing out the worst in people.
I shall cede the floor in a hope (perhaps vain) that a couple more actual female readers speak up!
Why not an adjacent website,Nude Curbside Classics? Pics of people beside their cars naked.I really hope you understand my warped Aussie attempt at humour.
Hahaha!
However, you might be surprised at the antipathy. Some reactions to Paul’s skinny dipping really surprised me. Land of The Free ™…not always.
If Gem reads this, I’ve found a magenta Stag (still running) in the wild! Yes, photo to prove it.
First time commenter, long time reader…I think it is great that you felt it was important to make this post.
40s white male here, which is not abnormal to the standard “classic car enthusiast” demographic. Left wing, agnostic, bisexual probably are though. While I realize that the topic was specifically geared towards women being comfortable, I just wanted to say that (in contrast to some other enthusiasts sites) I have rarely if ever seen anything that I felt was even remotely unwelcoming.
This is probably due to good administration, good commenters, and good luck. The one thing that keeps me coming back is that this site seems to be all about the CARS, automotive history and history in general, plus increasingly great prose in the COAL and Curbside Fiction realms.
While politics, race and gender roles and such are always going to be intertwined with this subject matter, so long as everyone continues to keep things respectful I think this website is miles ahead of any other on this topic. The depth and breadth of knowledge is astounding, and I echo the hopes that nobody with something to contribute should feel apprehensive in doing so regardless of their race, sex, religion, national origin, or anything else. If the site remains about the CARS and not tolerant of petty political shots or cheap insults, I’m hopeful that CC will continue to be my favorite car-oriented website on the internet.
You only need to answer 1 question, Barring-gaffner: Are you from Wilkes-Barre, PA? 😀
Well that’s an easy question…No, I’m from New England 🙂 Did I win?
Yes. Your prize options are:
1) a 1980 Chevy Citation. ’nuff said.
2) a 1982 Cadillac Cimarron (Ugh!)
3) a 1971 Ford Pinto that’s missing the passenger side floor. Darn rust!
4) a 1973 Chevy Vega . . . except someone stole the engine. Eyewitness accounts indicated the thief ran away laughing. Engine was not recovered, but no one cared.
Pick a prize and . . . Congratulations!
Sweet! I have to admit that while the Pinto is tempting, I’ll take the Cimarron. It’s surely the most comfortable of those four, and my sense of humor has always tended towards the absurd.
I appreciate and agree with a lot of what’s already been mentioned above. I’ve posted here occasionally since about 2010 or thereabouts and visit almost daily. The respectful discourse and sense of camaraderie are what keep me coming back. Thanks, everyone for that.
For what it’s worth, my daughter (still way too young to drive) seems to like “fast” cars and is genuinely enthusiastic whenever there’s a mention of taking my old Z3 Roadster for ice cream together. Hopefully someday in the not too distant future (and I hope she’s still interested then) I want to build a fun rallycross car with her. Maybe, given her penchant for things with wheels over dolls, it’s not too big of a stretch to think that she’d be interested in reading the same things as her dad. Hope you’re still here.
My entire life was spent as a man trapped inside a woman’s body. Then I was born.
This lady raises her hand. Also I have about twenty CCs and outtakes I need to sit down and finish/publish. I’ve been on this site since it started.
I do hope that this post will encourage women enthusiasts on Curbside Classic to comment and participate. I hope that they do. Greater diversity in any group means we learn more and become better rounded human beings.
As a gay brown Canadian guy, I have always found it a safe space to post about the car adventures that me and my fellow auto enthusiast husband have had. And if anyone had an issue with me mentioning my husband in my posts, they have kept it to themselves. What I hope happened that those that were initially offended, would have had an opinion change with regards to LGBTQ2S when they see us as auto enthusiasts with the same passion for fun older cars.
I think that in some cases, those of the female gender may be less apt to make themselves known here, out of possibly feeling like, you know, the two or three chicks at a Motorhead concert–some might relish the attention of being a cat in a dog’s world; others tire of feeling like they’re the spectacle in an endless sausage party. 🙂
There’s a lot of truth in that. Sometimes you just want to have a conversation without people reacting in surprise that you’re a gay chick that’s into Motorhead. I once made a comment here that the car enthusiast crowd is much more diverse than most peeps realize. If we didn’t need a haven at times, maybe more non-stereotype car nerds would make themselves known. I find that to be true with a lot of typically male interests, like outdoor stuff, guns, motorcycles, and working with your hands.
PS, I’m more into Slayer and Exodus, but Motorhead’s contributions can never be minimized. RIP, Lemmy.
Love your comments, love your cars. Post more often if you have time. I agree that the car enthusiast crowd (and CC community here) is more diverse (and less conservative) than some people realize. As Paul noted earlier, the commenters are a small part of the reading community. And many who do comment prefer to focus less on personal details than others, for a variety of reasons. Perhaps we should change that situation. Waving to Don W. in Palm Springs – miss your posts.
Yeah, exactly. It kind of reminds me of women in rock music……I think that more would be more apt to do it if they didn’t feel like they were meant to feel as if they’re in some sort of freak show. As a result, it may scare more of them off from really pursuing it. Same thing with women being more into cars and being more mechanically inclined……there’s a typical “role” that we’re born to fill, and when we don’t pursue that path, it sometimes gets to be much more difficult to follow. I say to people to be their original, badassed selves and not worry about what others think.
Admittedly, I have nothing special going for me as I am just another straight white male (albeit a young’un).
I’ve worked with a few female mechanics in my HS Auto class. They are as competent (if not moreso, in some cases) as their male counterparts. They are knowledgeable on the subject, and competent in performing their assigned tasks. If they wanted to, I could see them being competent full-time techs in the future. In many cases, I would prefer to work with them over some of their male counterparts. One of them (I have not worked much with the other) always has a can-do and get-it-right-the-first-time attitude that is admirable, and the technical skill and competence to back it up. I would hire her in a second if I was looking for an employee at my hypothetical shop
Also, as far as trying to get women and LBGTQ+ involved in the car scene, I have at least been able to teach my oldest sister and mom how to drive stick. Sadly, neither of them seem to care much about it as a hobby (yet). At least my mom can understand some of the technical bits (this is to be expected when you have been married to an engineer like my dad for the last 20 or so years, and hear his constant technobabble). Also, my sister says she wants to buy a Jeep Wrangler for off-roading when she is old enough to drive, so she might become a Jeep nut when she’s older.
It would be neat to see more women and LBGTQ+ around here amongst the commentariat, due to a desire to see more (and different) perspectives.
Finally, the less said for unwanted political discourse at CC, the better…
I’m here for the articles. I don’t give a rat’s about the gender/sexual preferences (as long as its between consenting adults) race/faith (or lack of) of the author.
The message is what counts, not the medium.
For the record, I’m male,white, Australian and 57. On some issues I’m a liberal. Others, a conservative. Would Iike to see more women here? Yes, if the articles are up to standard. I’d like to see more women in motorsport too, if that increases its attraction to half the worlds population. On topic, I’ve seen a few female mechanics,but a tiny, tiny percentage of the profession.
I’m a sort of gearhead-by-association. The other person in the household is a genuine, lifelong car nerd–so much so that when he visited the Peterson Museum in the company of my brother, the latter was astonished that my guy knew more about the cars on display than the docents did! I do plead guilty to being old–on the shady side of 70, actually–but I certainly don’t think the only interesting car is an old car. On the other hand, I’ve little interest in arguing the relative merits of the Camry vs. the Accord, when I could spend my time and attention on, say, a beautiful ’57 DeSoto (we are a Mopar household, for better or worse). And yes–we do have a ’64 Dart GT, on which my car nerd is working as we speak. It’s a ragtop; this little old lady bought it about eight years ago just because she always liked the looks of that particular model.I love this site and cruise through it regularly. I’m always amazed by the depth of knowledge I encounter, and I definitely appreciate the love of the subject I can always feel when I read the postings.
I’m a female car enthusiast in Pittsburgh and I love the site, contributing less often than I should. I work on my own stuff and have considered going to school for auto repair if my knife business fizzles. I own a 2003 Ranger, a 1994 Lincoln hearse, and a 1978 Grand Marquis (four door in dove gray with the 460) that needs work. My taste in new cars leans towards Jeep Wranglers and Ford trucks. My taste in old cars is way more expansive, running the gamut from Model A’s to 90s abberations. I’d love to make a classy sleeper out of the Marquis and adopt an old Firebird someday. I know a couple dozen friends that are into cars and happen to be chicks. The Valvoline place down the street has almost as many female mechanics as males.
Kind of the epitome of ‘who cares?” questions. There’s no way to tell gender/race/sexual preferences, etc on here, well, ok, the names do tend to identify gender. What’s it matter tho? I come here to read about cars, and the information in the comments. I just ignore any political statements/opinions in the comments as not relevant. If someone doesn’t want to comment because of their perception of bias on here, that’s on them. The car hobby is admittedly perceived as male oriented, but that’s the way of the world. At any car show you’ll see a LOT of women, either as exhibitors or spectators, so I think it’s not as one sided as people think. I certainly wouldn’t change anything to make it more encompassing. Paul does a great job of moderating the ***holes (of which there aren’t many), and usually the other commentators will slap them down anyway. This is a non issue, I’ve never seen anyone slammed on here because of their race, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else. Well, there is some prejudice against certain GM models, but hey, it’s not a perfect world 🙂
Crap. 100 percent.
I’ve been haunting automotive magazines, graduating to websites all of my life since age 14. The vast majority are there because it’s about the cars, the cars and only the cars. I know I have not been the only one to react with delight when a female gear head comes on board, ditto Australians, Russians, Kenyans, Chinese nationals with a love of these cars. Particular, the line, “paint a rosy picture that’s rather escapist of now,” is completely off base. Did it occur to you, Patricia these readers are indulging in mere nostalgia for their days earning up for, working on and cruising these machines? Where’s the Jim Crow or chauvinism in that? Racism and sexism were surely wholly imbued in the days these guys are invoking nostalgia for. But the nostalgia itself was and is primarily about the cars and secondarily about family, school and first dates. The only one injecting politics, race and gender in it apparently is you. Let’s go find the racism and sexism in the brand of diaper pins my mother used, what say?