You knew it was coming, right? I gave you my argument for my pick of the 1961-1965 Continental this morning. Now it’s your turn to convince us about your pick is for the last great American luxury car. Or maybe it’s still currently being made?
QOTD: What Was the Last Great American Luxury Car?
– Posted on February 1, 2017
Tesla Model S. Why? Because it is a truly American innovation, isn’t a fancier version of a mainstream car, and doesn’t try to be BMW.
The critical technology for any EV is its batteries; Tesla’s cells are sourced from Panasonic.
Panasonic may be assembling the Tesla’s cells, but they were very specifically designed by Tesla (in partnership with Panasonic) for their unique application. They may be the same size as other various 18650 cells, but they’re not the same on the inside. There are many subtle but very important differences. The 18650 size is really just a way to define the outer shell size.
And Tesla’s Gigafactory in Nevada has already started production of the brand new 2170 cells, designed also in partnership with Panasonic, and very specifically for Tesla.
So a “Truly American” technology requires collaboration with a Japanese firm to make it happen.
I think “Truly [insert nationality] innovation” is pointless nowadays, the industry has been transnational for decades. Individuals do great things, not nationalities.
BTW, Lincoln & Caddy didn’t so much innovate, they simply executed state-of-the-art in compelling way.
So a “Truly American” technology requires collaboration with a Japanese firm to make it happen.
Well, it didn’t necessarily have to be Panasonic or Japanese. A number of other companies.
Tesla could have gone into battery production themselves, but it’s very capital-intensive, and for a small company, having a partner makes sense.
I agree with you; the industry has been transnational for decades.
So many critical technologies absorbed in US cars originated or were perfected in Europe or Japan. Bosch FI. Or more importantly, the oxygen sensor developed by Bosch, which was critical to the three-way catalyst. Variable Valve Lift technology. I could go on and on.
The CEO of Tesla, Elon Musk, was born in South Africa, raised and educated in Canada and made his name in America. His engineers are the best and brightest on the planet-not just the USA. And the best and the brightest have always come to the USA and delivered incredible benefits. The Apollo programme would not have been possible without two Germans. Apple is the result of a Syrian immigrant.
Would anyone prefer this not be the case?
I do business with people from all over the world. Those walls tend to keep one in rather than others out.
Agree. but it was a Polish American who was the “brains” behind Apple. Jobs as a businessman and salesman, “Woz” was the developer.
To put it in terms of the auto industry, Bill Gates (Microsoft) and Steve Wozniak (Apple) would be Henry Ford and Walter P. Chrysler, Respectively, Steve Jobs was William C. Durant.
PS: A Canadian of Scotch decent gave us the telephone. ☎
PPS a shot of Canadian OR Scotch Whiskey sounds really good right now! ?
If you look at the US in light of the promise that is part of its creation (and not necessarily what it is today), I think Canuckknucklehead makes an excellent point for the Tesla.
Let us keep the political argument outside these electronic pages. There are a number of arguments pro and contra-immigration / walls / travel restrictions but this is not the place for them.
I don’t see “politics” in this. The question was about American cars, discussions about what is or isn’t “American ” has nothing to do with Democrats, Republicans, Trump or Obama. I am as a much a right leaning Republican , pro American, Buick lovin’ guy as one can be. I also count the Toyota Avalon and Camry as American, as the ones we get are US assembled. Even if Toyota is a Japanese company. OTOH I consider the Apple iPhone a Chinese product because that’s where it’s built, Even though Apple is an American company.
Discussing now much content a car is from what nation isn’t “political ” just historic.
BTW I count Tesla as an American car. Then again my old Buick Century WAS made in Canada ….Hmmmm,…. Damned imports!
I believe Musk was raised and educated to high school level in South Africa.
James, I refer to “Those walls tend to keep one in rather than others out” which is a clear reference to President Trump’s plan to construct a barrier of some sorts on the US-Mexico border, a highly charged issue.
……and I thought YOU wanted to keep politics out of this…?….My Bad……
I apologize if I were not clear – I wanted only to explain where my original comment came from. I make no comment on the issue, this way or that because – as I said – it does not belong in a discussion on the car’s qualities.
OK, I didn’t get the same vibe from Canucknucklehead’s comment. I took it as I would a saying like “out of the box”. Adressing the fact that influences are all around, and we should understand we (humams) often forget that influences come from all over the World. ???
Oh, you won’t hear any argument from me on that, and in the car world this has been the case right from the start…
+1 (or +0.0164 in Metric!) ?
This thread just went to hell, quick…
Focus people!
I just replaced the original flasher in my 1994 Cougar, and found it to be prominently inkstamped “MADE IN UK”!
The auto industry hasn’t been transnational for decades, it’s been transnational from the very start if the metrics being used are technologies and innovations. Truly American, or truly British/German/French/Japanese/etc. more accurately describe their prioritization of these technologies.
The manufacture and importation of parts by overseas suppliers may be a more recent (still a few decades back) development but when there’s enough commonality to an incosequential component there’s really no rational need for not invented here syndrome. It’s a far cry from, say, putting a Buick badge on a car designed from inception to be an Opel. Even Tesla’s battery pack, while accurate that it’s critical to the function of EVs, so is gasoline to ICEs, and where does that come from?
I’m a big proponent of localized car design, and not a fan at all of the one size fits all globalization, but I’m not going to nitpick the origin of bits and pieces like this. There are a Japanese built cars from Japanese automakers sold only in Japan that seem like truly American cars.
Truely? That’s a chimeric benchmark my friend.
If we apply your modern truely to even the 1966 Lincoln power train, we would have to admit that the engine technology was descended from German technology circa 1890-something even though the engine was fabricated in the USA.
This sure is a loaded question, but I think you are right. Tesla sure isn’t traditional, but so many people aspire to the Model S regardless that it is an electric or not. The argument that it uses Panasonic battery technology is tone deaf; the car with the most American content currently is the Toyota Camry.
One should not confuse content or assembly with ideas; the batteries are N.I.H., and to a lesser extent, so is the Camry.
Not Invented Here? The automobile, or for that matter, the internal combustion engine aren’t American inventions. At what point do you draw the line? Or did you mean Nickel-Hydrogen battery? That actually is an American invention… I’m obviously not clear as to what you are trying to say here.
Read my earlier comment. They were largely invented here, by Tesla to their specific requirements and input. Which explains why their name is on the cells. Tesla owns a number of patents on them.
Quite possibly the only part of a Tesla I could currently afford! 😉
They aren’t really that expensive, especially the pre-owned ones.
Basketball, THE most American of the major team sports ….Invented by a Canadian immigrant ….So, there’s that.
Without the allure provided by the Tesla S, the Panasonic bits are just… batteries.
It’s a very compelling nomination.
The Tesla Model S is the first American car in a very long time that has unique and advanced features, and as such, is seen as a leader in the market and enjoys a strong following and a high level of resulting prestige. And it’s distinctive enough looking so that it is quite instantly recognizable. All the qualities that I described in my Continental nomination are on full display in the Tesla Model S.
+1
Absolutely agree. Everyone knows what a Tesla is and they are hugely aspirational vehicles, even to non-car people.
Yes, my partner and flatmate saw one, and both wanted it, and they are about as non-car people as they come.
+2
I went to a family reunion last year, and a distant relative turned up in a Tesla. I felt I was looking at the future of the car. It’s very impressive as a piece of technology, as an alternative transportation device, but I didn’t really see it as a luxury car.
Trust me, here in Chicago, the types of people who own Tesla’s most certainly view them as luxury cars. Yes, they are lightning quick, but outside of that the only other justification I ever hear is “It cost me $95,000.” I may not necessarily agree they are the end all of finesse, but lots of people view them as “desired goods”.
Also here in Vienna, but then with a price tag of – what? €80,000? – that’s obvious. Incidentally, I am very curious to see whether Tesla can offer the Model 3 on the same level, price wise, as the same size Europeans when it comes here. But the 3 is not per se a luxury car.
Agreed! And quality of interior is not up to luxury standards either. I do wonder what happens to Tesla when the big manufacturers get serious about making electric cars.
Agree on the Tesla, but on the conventional side, the current Continental is a firm contender (also on a global level).
And I think the Tesla is neither great nor luxurious. It’s acquired a reputation for unreliability, and frankly the interior design more closely resembles a midscale model after IKEA designers went through it than a luxury car.
All they really did on the bottom line was believe in the electric car in the first place, pack more batteries into a single car than other makers, and introduce their autonomous cruising functions earlier than others with a lot of self confidence and not very much refinement, all of which doesn’t have much to do with luxury cars.
Right: Tesla only created a bespoke, powerful, quiet, fashionable, cutting-edge large sedan. Such adjectives could never apply to a luxury car.
I think you called it regarding the Continental, Paul.
Agree 110%. I don’t think any US car since has been such a style leader. This car was highly regarded everywhere and much copied. No one ever had to apologise for anything with this Lincoln. I think it ranks with the finest car designs of all time.
Fully agree.
Nailed it, Paul. The 1961-69 Continental last American car that could truly stand on an even footing with the best of Europe or the rest of the world. You could compare these cars to Rolls Royce, Bentley, or Mercedes without being ironic (Irony, as we all know being invented in the 90’s).
There have been several valiant efforts since then by Detroit to build a world-class luxury car (Allante, XLR), as well as several not-so-valiant (Seville, Versailles), but none have been been able to ascend to the top of the luxury heap.
I just don’t know about the 61-69 being the last great American luxury car using that logic. Was the delta between this generation Continental and the W108 Mercedes, which came out at its mid-point, really less than say a 77-79 Cadillac and the Mercedes W116? I would say it was more, far more. Has anyone here driven one of these Lincolns? I haven’t but can’t imagine it drives and rides as nicely as a contemporary Cadillac let alone a W108. The 77-79 Caddy OTOH was a much closer match to the best-in-the-world at the time, the W116. It closed the gap. Factor in price and the Cadillac wins hands down, that’s why it was the best selling car in Cadillac’s history, and that was after the Mercedes/BMW invasion.
Except for the styling which is FANTASTIC how much is really there with these Lincolns? I rode in a ’64 convertible once and what I remember most were the rattles which surprised me it being a unibody. I’d pick this Lincoln over the 77-79 or last Brougham in ’92 but the QOTD was which was the “last” great American luxury car and that has to be one of those Caddys, unless image means everything or those Continentals were a lot nicer to drive and ride in than I believe.
But I could argue those Cadillacs I like so much did not have the groundbreaking design and true innovations such as the suicide doors and 4-door convertible and for those reasons the Lincoln wins because that, net-net, brought it up to Mercedes level for desirability among the elite (jet setters, etc.).
If you bring performance into it like so many have it’s almost impossible to argue the Continental was the last great one.
Actually I just convinced myself that the true test here should be if the car is coveted by rich, tastemaker types at the same level as the best in the world. They did not desire those Cadillacs I mentioned that way but they did the Continental. That happened again with the Tesla so I am switching my vote to Tesla. But one could also argue the Escalade (or even Ford GT) and that’s really weird.
Do d I read this right – 77 – 79 Caddy’s being compared to W 116’s? The two are poles apart!
Poles part, heck no. Please click on the link Wild provided. That’s to a six car comparison test where the vastly more expensive Mercedes 600 barely beat a 1965 Cadillac.
Now put the 77-79 Cadillac, which most would agree is leaps and bounds ahead of a ’65 130-inch wheelbase Brougham, for steering and handling, up against not the 600 Pullman but just a regular 450SEL.
Logic says it’s gonna be close to tied, and of course the Caddy is much less expensive, $11,500 for the Brougham D’elegance versus $25,200 for the 450. Yup the Merc is more than double. They sold “too many” of the 77-79 Caddys so the cars are not special to you.
Calibrick – I have the road test at home you are talking about. Interesting to read.
I would pick a Cadillac over a Mercedes any time. Primarily because nothing beats the seating comfort with tilt and telescope wheel, the size of the steering wheel, the comfortable 6 way power seats, not to mention levelled arm rests, like you find it in this Cadillac.
I believe I am one of very few people, who has done a slippery driving course in a 1978 Cadillac Fleetwood Limousine, arranged for a group of local limousine chauffeurs.
It was very interesting, especially because the instructor did not have very high thoughts about the participating cars:
Another 1979 Cadillac stretch limousine, 1983 Lincoln Town Car, 1985 Lincoln stretch limousine, 1981 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow II and the luggage van, a Ford Galaxy (FWD MPV which basically is a VW).
The only car where the driver lost control completely, causing the car to fly off the track and onto the lawn, was the FWD Ford Galaxy.
The other cars did pretty much what they were asked to do.
We were driving on a race track sprinkled with loads of water.
One of the exercises was to go into a curve and keep accellerating, untill the car would swing round, which is the only way you can learn the limits your car has.
Imagine going into a 380 degree spin with a car, which in 1978 in Denmark had a sticker price of $214K. Kind of gives you a high puls.
Another exercise was to drive straight at the instructer, waiting for his last minute signal whether avoid him on his left or right side.
None of the US cars failed this test and the instructor just stood there mouth open and “dropped his jaw” as we put it.
During the years I used the Fleetwood for business, we had some very cold winters with a lot of snow. The car never got me in trouble. It stayed on the road and went through snow drifts with no problems.
Great info about how those Cadillacs perform in the wet MarkIV. I’m not surprised. The engine placement is low and rearward which gives tremendous stability. The small-block versions are even better, with the engine almost entirely behind the front axle, something possible only on the Cadillacs and not the rest of the B/C body range. Agree about the tilt & telescopic wheel and fold-down armrest. A tall person can rest his arm and hold the wheel with three fingers. That takes all of the tension out of driving. Amazing how GM could make the steering so effortless and at the same time so precise. You can hustle the car down a twisty road without moving your right arm.
Love the pic!
Hard to argue what great cars the ’60’s Continental’s were.
The ’61-’65 had more of a gangsta look which is great but I still like the cleaner, slimmer look of the ’66-’69, especially in 2 door form.
Never drove it being only 11-12 when dad bought his new 67 2 door sedan, but rode in it through several states with and without the 23 ft Shasta travel trailer, comfort, stability, and power all seemed first rate over many hours of long distance traveling. I don’t recall any squeeks or rattles for the 40 or 50k miles that were put on it in 2 years.
I’m sure especially towing it sucked fuel like a jet, but that was common back in the day for most cars.
No doubt in my mind, It’s the ’61 to’65 Lincoln Continental, With emphasis on the ’61 to ’63 (Love the grill treatment). Convertible or hardtop, either one. Although I do believe a black or dark blue makes the hardtop look best. Saw a dark blue over light blue ’62 convertible when I was 9 years old, and never got over it! And neighborhood friends father had a ’65 white over red convertible. Friends father let him drive it now and then, making trips to Dairy Queen an event! Never owned one, but it’s firmly in my fantasy garage
I would also agree on the Continental. There have been nice luxury cars since but the Continental really was a masterpiece.
Virtually anything made after 1971 is either ugly or rubbish – new cars, although outstanding in many respects = high mileage in a short time – none will be cherished or rarefied, because no one will be able to keep them going. Who cares – consume, I say.
1992 Cadillac Brougham. tradional American style, not trying to be anything else!
I agree. To win the crown I think the car needs to harken back to the glory days of the American luxury car. The Cadillac Brougham does that beautifully having its roots in the 77-79 downsized model, the best selling car in Cadillac’s history. The styling was done under the watch of Bill Mitchell who was in charge of GM Design during the company’s most successful period. The Brougham has classic American luxury features and style including body-on-frame construction, a long hood, a long wheelbase, plenty of chrome, reliability and above all else supreme comfort. My second pick would be the 90-97 Lincoln Town car and I see Matt has that below. But I think it has a newer look and not enough classic touches on the inside although I like the car very much.
Now if the question was “What is the greatest post-war American luxury car?” the ’61 Continental could be at the top of the list.
Most (if not all) have plastic wood trim which I think is a disgrace.
1990-1997 Town Car. Traditional American definition of luxury everywhere, yet attractive and well built enough to have presence with those of us young enough to have pictures of Ferrari F40s on our bedroom walls at the time.
Disagree. The Cadillac Brougham had so much more presence, where the Town Car was a merely mainstream barge that Family Circle magazine picked as the family car of the year, in one of those years. I always looked at it as a glorified Panther. Of course my answer to the question has to be the 93-96 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham, specifically the ones equipped with the LT-1.
I hate to disagree with you (Mainly as a Buick/Cadillac guy.) But if I was going with a 93-96 RWD GM It would 100 to 10 the Buick Roadmaster over the 93-96 Fleetwood. The 92-96 Roadmaster was more “Buick” than the 93-96 Fleetwood was “Cadillac”. So if the choice was post 92, I’ll go with the Lincoln over Cadillac…..Actually Post 92…I’d REALLY rather have a Buick.
My problem with Buick, and as well as the Chevy, is that the rear doors are not disguised to at least look the same size as the front doors. Look at the bottoms of the rear doors. compared to the front. Manufactures usually elongate the rear of the doors, at the top, into rear sheet metal to give the illusion that the doors are the same size. But in these two, no such move takes place. On the other hand, because of the longer wheelbase of the Fleetwood, the doors are near the same size as the fronts, at least at the top.
I do agree with you on the rear doors, And Buick being 1 step below Cadillac and two steps above Chevrolet, The Roadmaster SHOULD have shared more with the Fleetwood. Unfortuately GM cheaped out by sharing Buick and Chevy. Oddly, Making the Roadie share MORE with Fleetwood would have been more efficient than Caddy going alone. Chevys higher production alone warranted a difference.
I agree that the Brougham(based on the 1980 body) still had presence when these Town Cars were around, but I cannot say that about the Fleetwood Brougham to follow. Those were full blown retiree vehicles with that beached whale design language. The LT-1 is fairly useless with an owner demographic that went about 20mph under the speed limit.
Glorified panther = glorified B-body. The thing that bugged me about the 93+ GMs is they all seem to share things like door handles, side mirrors door glass and windshields – I don’t know whether that assumption is accurate or not, but it certainly looks it – I can’t find any exterior tells like that link the Town Car to either the Box or Aero Crown Vic or Grand Marquis.
The last ones that I had true LUST for were the 460 powered Lincolns of the late 1970s, the 6.0 ltr Cadillacs that just made it into the 80s, and the 1993 – 1996 Fleetwood, there’s just something audacious about it being sold in the 1990s. (But then I was born in 1977.)
Now were any of these cars better than a 1962 Continental or a 1965 Cadillac? NO. But today’s luxury cars inspire no “lust” in me. If I bought a brand new XTS it wouldn’t be because it was more lust worthy than an Impala or a Lacrosse, it would be because I was trying to get the most toys that I could.
Sometimes some things never change.
Lol! Perfect!
Why, is the old Cadillac also a Chevrolet pickup truck with a trunk and some new sheet metal and dashboard trim?
I believe the 2011 Lincoln Town Car is a righteous contender for the title of “The Last Great American Luxury Car”, one surely gets the genuine American luxury car experience outta one of these 18.5 foot long barges. It’s a proper American luxury car in my books, the same couldn’t be said about the four and six cylinder Cadillacs and Lincolns aiming towards the luxury crossover and European dominated compact luxury segments.
If you’re talking the definition of size, as in a “great amount of metal”, sure. But the ’11 Town Car couldn’t compete with rival American luxury cars, let alone cars from elsewhere in the world. And to be a great luxury car, I think you need to offer a lot more than just easy serviceability, cheap parts and a floaty ride.
Now, the nominations for the ’90 Town Car I can appreciate a bit more as the car was more competitive with its contemporaries and it hadn’t been so severely decontented yet.
The problem with all the Panther Town Cars is the interior. They didn’t differentiate it enough from the Grand Marquis and Crown Vic. Pick a year, any year, and tell someone it’s the interior of a Grand Marquis, and no one would bat an eye. Poor quality switchgear and an aesthetic way too close to its platform-mates.
Then again, the late Town Cars were essentially Mercury products anyway. They weren’t nicer in any quantifiable fashion except that they looked “fancier” and came with leather standard (perhaps nicer leather than the rather hard stuff the CV and GM got). The fake wood was slightly more convincing than the woodgrain contact paper the Crown Vic got, but there was way too much of it to be credible as real tree product.
97 Lincoln town car.last year for decent looking ones.
the current Chrysler 300
94_96BUICK ROADMASTER with LT1 under the Hood.
I’m voting with Paul. With apologies to Cadillac, it was the last one that could be considered the Standard of the World.
Cadillac still had a few good years left at that point in terms of quality, but it was merely equal to the Continental, while the Continental’s style was a global trendsetter.
I’m going to say the 1977-79 Lincoln Continental and Mark V.
Now, here me out, I understand these cars are underpowered, I understand that maybe the quality wasn’t as good as what came before, I understand that these were seen as outdated and tacky in their own time, and still seem that way now.
But, when you think of American Luxury, you think of excess. Size is usually the one thing, but not the only thing, you had big engines, lots of accessories that were pricey options on other cars that came standard, you had interiors engineered to be as quiet and as isolated as possible. Granted, Rolls Royce and Bentley still do that now, but the American luxury car had two things that separated it. Number one, anybody could afford it, which if you’re so hung up on snob value and keeping you’re blue blood image alive, is a detriment. But, you can’t deny that there is something about that philosophy that’s successful. If you work hard enough, and you persevere enough, you can have this grand opulent car sitting in your driveway. When you think about it, what is that philosophy if not the classic image of America itself? And the second, the lack of anything resembling an apologetic nature. These cars knew what they were, and they never made any compromises. Whether or not that’s worthy of admiration or criticism, is really up to one’s own personal opinion and tastes. But, those two ideas, are what I feel are indicative of the American luxury car.
And that’s why I view the 77-79 Lincolns as the last great American luxury cars. They were the last of the full-sizers, the last original cars to truly capture this image of uncompromised excess, yet still in the reach of anyone not born into money. Sure, they were constricted somewhat, emissions regulations and all that. But, when you compare these cars to what came after, you get the sense that they were built without compromise. Ford knew that the American Luxury car, as people knew it, wouldn’t survive forever. So if they were going to go out, they were going to go out swinging. Yes the traditional American Luxury car mold still remained in the downsized Cadillacs and Town Cars, but you can sense that there’s something missing from the equation. And the SUVs we have today, while being just as big as the land barges of old, aren’t even close to truly comparing to what used to be built.
Disagree with me all you want, but that’s why I think the 77-79 Lincolns were the last great American Luxury Cars.
Not sure I agree, but I admire your reasoning.
I agree with Pete, I’m not sure I agree but you have very soundly justified it.
But then, by that definition, wouldn’t an Escalade or Navigator meet that criteria? Or must we exclude them because they are not technically “cars”?
I see both as being the true successors to the Eldorados and Marks of the 1970s.
With the Escalade and the Navigator, it’s a complicated manner. One that I have tried to sort out, but I don’t really count them as being true successors.
I understand the thinking, much like the Eldorados and Marks of yore, they are billed as the top of the line models, the most prestigious models, certainly the most expensive. But, they are two very different animals with very different goals.
The old PLCs of the 60s and 70s, were designed for empty nesters, professional business people, single people. It was a car with enough room for you and one other passenger, designed to provide as much isolation as possible.
The luxury SUVs of today are a bit different. There are four doors, a giant tailgate to haul stuff, seating for eight people, they ride very high. They’re very different beasts than the stuff from Detroit’s Lower, Wider, Longer, halcyon days. Granted, not everybody who drives a Navigator or an Escalade is going to need all that space, there are plenty of people who drive these cars by themselves, or if they do have a kid, it’s usually one at most. But, it’s clear there is more in the way of utility and practicality then there was back then. I doubt that the person who would’ve bought a PLC today, would’ve been interested in an SUV now.
Of course, there are plenty of factors to consider. The PLC died for many reasons, SUVs became popular for many reasons at the exact same time. It was inevitable that a changing of the guard would’ve happened at some point, but the dramatic differences between the two are what I’m hung up on.
I’m not going to go the cheap route and say “The Navigator and Escalade are just gussied up versions of lesser products.” Because, let’s be real here, that criticism could be directed at any luxury car based off of the same platform as a cheaper corporate sibling. I guess, when you get down to it, I just view them in different lights. I recognize the luxury SUV as a category, and I’m not saying that there wasn’t a precedent for it, I mean two words. Range Rover. But, a luxury SUV is just so different than what came before it, and so fundamentally unique in its own way, that to compare it to previous products seems almost disingenuous. A Navigator and an Escalade, to be perfectly blunt, are trucks. Well equipped, well trimmed, and high priced trucks, but trucks nonetheless, the roots of what they are come out in such a way, that they have very little in common with PLCs that dominated before.
Basically, to put it in the crudest terms possible, a luxury car is kind of like porn. I know it when I see it. Other than length, The Escalade and Navigator are just completely different animals from the Marks and Eldorados. While I understand the logic behind making the comparison, it’s hard for me to make that connection in an earnest manner. A Mark is a Mark, A Navigator is a Navigator. Both are different, both have different goals and ideas of luxury. One doesn’t really seem like a spiritual successor to the other, just a more modern day take on the same principles. I know that sounds contradictory, but, it’s an apples to oranges scenario that, for me personally at least, doesn’t hold that much weight.
I like your idea. A luxury car is indeed like porn. What gets one guy going does nothing for another guy. I also agree that “luxury” SUVs are just trucks with extra amenities added. If you like it, and want to buy one, good for you. Enjoy. But for me, even the PLCs were not “luxury”. As a driver of a 1977 Monte Carlo, they were great in their own way, but they were not “luxurious”. They were what we refer to as lifestyle vehicles now. And oddly, the lifestyle that they represent is usually not one lived by the owner. An SUV with 4 Wheel Drive that is only offroad if you consider the shopping center parking lot off road is only a prop. People buy the “luxury” brands at a premium based on the idea that others will see and understand that they paid top dollar for it, much like wearing designer label clothes. Not better, just ostentatious. If they really understood luxury……gosh, what would they actually drive?
Yes, alone without neighbors to impress we might act different. I nomnated the 1992 Brougham. I have had several of the 1984-1989 Broughams, But in reality they were just more recent attempts to revive one of my favorites: a 1977 Buick Electra Limited. That Buick was pretty much the same car as the Brougham , but with the luxury of being less of a burden mechanically. Then too my tailor is J.C.Penney. ?
One of the reasons the big luxo SUVs are as successful as they are is that they fill enough needs (perceived and real) with one vehicle that they can get some real volume. Pure display of wealth? Check. But also toy hauler, kid hauler, livery-fleet vehicle. It replaces not only the Eldo/Mark class but the high-end Buick/Olds station wagons and the Series 75 limo.
IDK if there IS a modern PLC (Eldo/Mark) To me the big SUVs do replace the High end wagons, (Buick,Chrysler) and perhaps the livery duty DeVilles and Town Cars. There is also no replacement for the Series 75. The over the top tacky stretch prom limos of the 80s-90s destroyed the element of class arriving in a limo once had. I’d rather show up in a Yellow Cab than one of those vomit brothels. YMMV.
You could argue that a real luxury car needs to have been available in limousine form and looked the part. ’61 Continental? Check. 80s Cadillac Brougham? Check. Escalade or Suburban? Check.
Those black SUVs shuttling the President around look impressive, competent and uniquely American just like the Kennedy Lincoln and Reagan-era Brougham did.
I remember seeing some DTS Cadillacs in limo duty and they just didn’t look the part.
I think the product managers inside Lincoln are fully aware of what you said. But with the given budget, and available platforms to morph, it’s not all that easy to do something very far. Lincoln Navigator is the next bet.
If the next Navigator looks like the concept, I will be very excited. Loved the concept!
While I selected the 92 Brougham, I agree with your reasoning. To me being “internationally relevant” is pointless. The question is great American luxury car. It should embody American ideals. This is not to be xenophobic. I would answer differently if the question was great British/French/German/Japanese or Italian (insert type of) car. Today cars are like TVs and Toasters. I miss the days when each country’s cars had a spirit that was unique to it’s national culture.
I think Japanese and German automakers should be responsible for most of that, and biggest victim is Britain and commonwealth countries.
+1!
My Dad bought a new 78 Mark V Cartier edition (prior to that he had a 71 Lincoln sedan) and I drove it many times over the years he owned it. It was a nice car and enjoyable to drive (it had the 460) but so much of the switch gear, trim, and other interior pieces did not feel as luxurious as they should because they came straight from the parts bin for Fords of all prices, e.g., the transmission selector was identical to the one from my 72 Maverick LDO (the cut-pile carpeting was pretty similar, too). I don’t think the 1961-1965 Lincoln shared parts with lesser Fords in this manner. And while a nice looking car, the styling of the Mark V did not approach the pathbreaking originality of the 61. I think Lincoln was well on the way to losing its distinct luxury image by the late 70’s (for good reasons, Ford chose cost cutting part-sharing and volume sales over exclusivity).
While it may be difficult to define a luxury car in today’s huge, diverse, worldwide automobile market, it was pretty easy to do so in the limited choice market of the early 60’s and Lincoln was really at the top of its game.
I know this is highly subjective, but the last American luxury car that I’ve really longed for is the 1990s Eldorado. Yes, I know it has flaws, but I like many flawed things. To me these care offered a very distinctive and classy design, a modern yet luxurious interior, and an overall aura that seemed like a genuine descendant of the luxury car’s golden age. To me, that’s what a great American luxury car should be.
I still like the design today, and it would be on my short list if I were in the market for another “modern classic” (which I’m not right now!).
I agree with Eric703 exactly. I was about to plunk down $4,000 for a second owner, vouched for, beauty, when I spooked on the blown head gasket North Star engine issue. I gave my answer to “the last great luxury car” question below as the ’81-’83 Imperial, which I feel like few are going to take seriously as an answer. I would have put the ’92-’02 Eldorado, but thought of it as a “personal luxury car” which somehow differentiated it from a “regular luxury car”. Perhaps the ’81-’83 Imperial is a personal luxury car, too, now that I think about it. I don’t know the fine point of these things!
At least the Eldorado and Seville got real wood trim again by the 90’s (actually I think the 86-91 models also did).
Any models built just before the implementation of the early federal regulations that compromised interior quality and design are contenders. The protruding knobs and reflective chromed surfaces were the first casualties in ’67 and ’68. Imperial, and to a lesser extent, Cadillac, suffered the worst. The difference between a ’66 and a ’69 Imperial is a study in decontenting. After ’66, the Fleetwood Brougham progressively suffered similar decontenting. Lincoln seemed to weather the new mandates the best.Anything beyond this period is just too compromised. And we all know what the 70’s brought.
For me, it’s a toss up between the ’66 Fleetwood Brougham, the ’65 Continental, and the ’66 Imperial LeBaron. I’ll lean towards the Imperial due to its exclusivity, engineering, and slight edge in materials quality.
Definitely the ’66 Fleetwood Brougham. Elegance inside and out.
Seems like a exercise in futility. What is meant by “great”?
That, Sir, is exactly the question we are here to try to answer.
In my mind it would be a car that is neither a self conscious imitation of what’s hip and worldly, nor a throwback to an irrelevant past.
Then I’d say the ’61-’65 Lincoln Continental was probably one of the most classy and beautiful American luxury cars while maintaining a high level of quality in material and workmanship.
The ’59 Caddy is King of Americana Kitsch, I’d say unchallenged.
I personally love big luxobarge PLCs like the Mk. V and Eldo as well as their Brougham sedan brothers. I love their over the top Baroque excess.
Greatest? Hmm. Well, I wouldn’t want to get in a wreck with either one. So for safety they aren’t the greatest. Amenities were great for the 60s-80s but obviously crude for 2017. As a daily driver, I’d much rather have a 2017 Continental or CT6 and keep the old ones as sunny day weekend cruisers.
The last great American luxury car? Well, the ’61 Continental set an extremely high bar, as Paul’s excellent article proves. Instantly recognizable, beautifully styled inside and out, absolutely timeless. That’s a tough act to follow.
I remember when, I can’t remember which magazine it was, but every few years they would do a comparison on “What is the best car in the world?”. And they would compare the finest from Japan, the UK, Germany etc like the Lexus LS, Infiniti Q45, etc.
One year, Cadillac’s entry was the Seville STS. But the next time it was the ’93-96 Fleetwood Brougham. Neither won either competition but it brings up an interesting point: are American luxury cars best when they are unashamedly American – simple pushrod V8s, body-on-frame construction, acres of chrome – even when that very format is only appreciated, on a wide scale, by Americans? An S-Class has international appeal and it’s a big car with big engines and lots of chrome and wood and leather. So even if Cadillac made a 2017 Fleetwood Brougham with a small-block V8 and BOF construction, would it be the greatest luxury car?
American luxury car “purists” would prefer Cadillac and Lincoln stick to Town Car and Fleetwood-style luxury. They decry new Cadillacs that are “copies” of the Europeans. But I think there’s an argument to be made for tackling the Germans head on, considering how universally praised they are for their combination of quality, dynamics, features etc.
Is a Cadillac CT6 better than an S-Class? In some respects, yes; lighter weight, sharper handling, lower price. And Cadillacs will continue to get better. And yet, it still is distinctively American in style (well, the rear could use a tad more definition), still offers a smooth ride, has plenty of space and gadgets and nice materials. For those lovers of big American luxury, the CT6 has size and presence, and for those lovers of the new international definition of luxury, it has the ride, handling and features expected. Give it another generation and the CT6 could best the S-Class.
If Lincoln or Cadillac wanted to, they could develop a modern-day Town Car or Fleetwood. And maybe if it was styled distinctively enough, it could become iconic. But at the end of the day, it would have to be ’61 Continental-level amazing to have any relevance outside of the North American market. The Chrysler 300 proved you could get Europeans to buy brash American full-size sedans, so it is possible… But that wasn’t so much a luxury car as a premium car, and it was keenly priced. I’d love to see an American automaker with Rolls levels of cachet and prestige but I’m not sure that will ever happen.
I just want to challenge this belief that an excellent American luxury car has to be a BOF, small-block V8 land yacht. Which is why I believe the last greatest American luxury car was (is) the Cadillac CT6, as well as the Tesla Model S as mentioned above.
Cadillac CT6 is the current day SeVille, an upscale internationally sized Cadillac with technology. I’m sure product managers try to figure out what to do with Cadillac Escala, as CT8 was cancelled, and the project went to another direction. Not easy to figure out though. ( door handles must be a lesson from Lincoln Continental )
Apparently there are still plans for a flagship Cadillac passenger car and it will resemble the Escala and be a liftback, not a sedan. While I don’t like the loss of Cadillac’s signature vertical headlights, I otherwise like the Escala. But I understand Caddy needs to majorly flesh out their crossover lineup first. That is crucial for profitability.
So Cadillac is building an Audi A7?
That’s a great-looking concept, but the profile seems almost identical.
Nostalgia is a funny thing. I have worked in the car industry, and let me tell you, if GM thought tail fins and chrome would sell, or body of frame cars with iron motor for that matter, they’d be selling them.
I have driven loads of this stuff, and there is no way anybody is going to pay $60k or more for a copy of a 1977 Cadillac. Another observation that is while there are loads of these cars still around and decent prices, very, very few people actually drive them. I for one and used to good steering and brakes, and I don’t want to give that up. Many folks must agree, because I don’t see too many old sleds as daily drivers in these parts.
I always felt that GM circa 1980 should have developed a RWD unit-body with modern engines for Buick and Cadillac. It wouldn’t have been that hard working with Opel, which is exactly what they do now. Even then, it was pretty obvious that the day of the barge was almost over and it was more due to sales than anything. But GM’s NIH syndrome would have never allowed that.
It is ALL due to sales in the car business.
It’s not that easy to develop a big unit-body. Either way, it’s not strong enough, or it’s not big enough, or it’s so heavy and space inefficient without much advantage over body on frame. I remember how fragile FWD C-Body is in terms of handling, and it’s only at the size of RWD A-Body. The technology just didn’t exist at the time for an affordable platform as such. GM was the only company getting it close, with 1995 Buick Riviera at the similar size ( Lincoln Mark VIII wasn’t big to start with ) and later continuation. A unibody Cadillac DeVille/DTS is pretty big for its structure, Mercedes only gets close to the size these days.
What about the Mercedes 600?
It’s not that easy to develop a big unit-body.
Tell Chrysler that. They switched over to all unibody in 1960 (except the Imperial, which switched a few more years later)
Nash did it back in 1949.
Chrysler unibody, is heavy, and inefficient in terms of space, if compared to body on frame. It’s just not that easy.
I’m not sure I can agree here, the 60 Chryslers were only 2/3rds unibody, the entire front clip is a separate frame member(ala Camaro) and remained that way until the final C-bodies. Only the 1962 models(B-body) and the A-Body were true unibodies from stem to stern. And there’s not a weight penalty to them over their competition.
True big unibodies originated with the 1958 Lincoln and there is truth to the weight penalties you mention with them, but only because the engineering was very rudimentary and were overbuilt using heavier interlocking layers of steel in stress areas. No platforms are designed that way today.
People act like BOF construction is somehow a lesser or cheaper technology than unibody just because it came first. Is drywall “better” than lathe-and-paster for walls? Yes if low cost and maintenance is the goal. But here we are talking luxury.
The fact is BOF takes a tremendous amount of know how and investment to bring to production, if you want it to have good chassis and acceleration performance. That’s why you haven’t seen a frame-based Ridgeline from Honda. Not because monocoque is better but because Honda can’t justify the huge investment in D&D and manufacturing to do a BOF. And their lack of know how makes it a risk.
In a large size the BOF is going to give you more long term durability and road isolation than a unibody ever could. The problem is that sometimes that can be overkill and too heavy. But by the mid-70s General Motors was one of the leaders in computer aided design technology and had at their disposal the engineering capability to have in the downsized B/C body cars the best of both worlds — the low weight of uni with the strength of BOF.
To me things like luxury and quality have to do with engineering prowess and not just fit / finish. It costs money i.e. is a luxury to have that. A 1970s Rolls-Royce has wonderful fit / finish and refinement at the cost of 1000s of man-hours for hand sanding and panel fitting. To perform near that level with fully automated manufacturing, which is what you need to make it affordable, is having better total quality. Replicating tight panel margins over millions of units is more impressive than doing it perfectly 1,000 times.
Remember the Mercedes Gullwing was body on (space) frame. They went unibody on the Pagoda not because it was better but because it made the SL more affordable.
What about the Mercedes 600????
I think without the very expensive and problem-prone air suspension system the 600 would have been a very disappointing car to ride in or drive and would have performed at a level far below GM’s best BOF. Not an apple to apple comparison unless you want to give the BOF the same air suspension.
You should probably read this LINK
…the handling… would be good in sports cars…
I’ve read that article many times. The average score for the Mercedes 600 was 8.6, for the Fleetwood 7.9. Not a big difference. The price for Mercedes $20,500, for Cadillac $8,359. Big difference. You could own two Cadillacs and the Imperial for the price of one Mercedes.
The Caddy scored a perfect 10 for the all-important Harshness Control (these are luxury cars after all) and beat the unibody Lincoln for ride and handling. The 600 scored a mid-pack 7 for Harshness Control. Without the air suspension that would have been worse or they would have had to trade off a good chuck of that excellent handling to get the ride back up to a competitive level. The downsized GM BOF cars closed the gap with the facing Mercedes for chassis performance, keeping their excellent ride but improving in steering and handling. That was hard to do.
Point is that GM did it with technology breakthroughs while Mercedes threw money at the problem. One is more impressive than the other, to me. You might want to read the reviews of the ’77 Chevy that appears in another post here today.
The 300SL was not conventional BOF design. It was a “three-dimensional” space frame (thus the gullwing doors), like a Maserati 450S or a Holman-Moody stock car. The first comparable unibody/monocoque design in the 300SL’s league was the Jaguar D-Type; like Mercedes, Jaguar made its next all-new street sports car a unit body.
The Mercedes 600 does not have an air suspension.
see # 2
http://blog.caranddriver.com/grosser-gravy-10-things-you-didn’t-know-about-the-mercedes-benz-600/
The Mercedes most certainly did have air suspension.
http://600airsuspension.com/resources/150217-article-on-mercedes-air-suspension-by-martin-werminghausen.pdf
This BOF vs Unibody debate is lacking adequate knowledge on both side, and making simplistic assumptions, and I don’t have time do an in-depth response. To even bring the 300SL into this debate is absurd, as it was originally a racing car.
The simple reality is that GM and Ford found it cheaper to build their cars with perimeter frames to achieve a certain level of noise reduction and that jet-smooth ride. It simply would have taken more time and effort to accomplish the same result with unibodies, as Rolls Royce, Mercedes, Citroen, Jaguar, Peugeot, Opel and other companies did.
There is nothing magical about either unibody or BOF; it’s all in how well one does either one. And as it has been long shown, unibody ultimately is the superior approach, especially in achieving the desired rigidity that modern cars want to have for superior handling and other reasons.
Also keep in mind that what is called “BOF” is hardly a body plunked down on a ladder frame. Since the 1950s, with first the X Frame and then perimeter frames, the body is a very essential part of the structure. Bodies for these more modern frames have considerable stiffness built into them. The two work in tandem to achieve certain results.
Look at the ’66 Chevrolet frame picture attached (sorry, it’s small). it has no cross member’s except at the very front and the back. It relies on the body for a huge amount of torsional stiffness. One could argue that the side rails exist mostly to tie the front and rear “subframes” together, and provide strength against side intrusion, which stiffer rocker panels would also have done.
Using a perimeter frame was a compromise to achieve a bit of further isolation for the body. But no one would even consider doing this for a new mass-produced passenger car; it doesn’t allow the desired stiffness of a single unibody, and there are now better and cheaper ways to get the quietness and isolation. The frames are an anachronism from a long-ago era, and were kept in production long past their sell-by dates because of inertia.
GM had planned to totally ditch frames for 1985! But the upsurge in demand for the bigger RWD cars forced them to keep them in production. They could easily have built bigger unibodies, but it was cheaper to keep the old ones going.
I had noticed that in Wiki. However, this is irrelevant to the point I tried to make, which is that Mercedes did build a large unibody sedan, which was certainly better than the Lincoln’s.
You are right Paul it comes down to cost and that’s why the industry is 100% unibody today. Like you said the more recent BOFs had bodies with a fair amount of stiffness baked in.
To plop that down on to a full frame is overkill for cost and weight. Through electronically controlled brakes and suspension you can get to such a high degree of ride & handling it would be a waste to over-engineer the platform for even better isolation or suspension geometry. These e-controls have taken the place of the very expensive, complicated and problematic hydropneumatic systems on the cars that you mentioned. Limited slip diffs can be done electronically these days by pumping one brake more than another. You can control understeer/oversteer through the stability control.
I have had German and Japanese unibody cars and the BOF Cadillac. I can feel the body flex in the imports when I pull into a driveway or parking lot at 45 degrees. The window frames move in their surrounds and I can hear a creak in one of the cars at the sunroof. I cannot feel flex at all in the Cadillac. Whether that’s because there isn’t any or the flex is getting absorbed in the cushion between the body and frame I don’t know. I can feel the transmission shifts in my Mercedes steering wheel, I cannot in the Cadillac and that gives a more premium feel too.
No one but a crazy car guy is going to notice these benefits but they are there. I drive down a mountain pass every few months and cannot keep up with the best driven modern pickups no matter what car I am driving. Those things handle like crazy and they are all BOF and huge. The guys and gals look like they are having fun. A RAM 1500 rides like a Cadillac as you know.
One of my favorite analogies is crawl space versus slab foundation for a house. If I was building a new one I wouldn’t think for a second of going with a raised floor but that doesn’t mean there aren’t numerous benefits like a better feel on your bare feet. Another is that it is easier to do a repipe. An unintended benefit similar to how it is easier and cheaper to do rust and collision repair on an old BOF car than one with uni.
As for the 300SL space frame -> unibody my point was that it was done to support a much higher volume goal, not to mention packaging for the convertible top and luggage space. Sure a 3D frame is going to cost a lot more than a simple perimeter one for the material cost and labor but with the GM style frame you pay for it in other ways like a big investment up front. Different hardware, true, but same basic point about how unibody is cheaper.
The 1995 Aurora and Riviera bodies did not flex much. Before that design GM bodies had a fair amount of flex. My 95 Riviera would settle onto three of the four points when on the service departments lift for an oil change.
I don’t feel any shifts with my CTS AWD in the steering wheel.
I thought I had read that article before Wild but maybe not because I sure as heck don’t remember this line which is EXACTLY what I was thinking about the 77-92 Cadillac Brougham. It would easily be the last great American luxury car except that there wasn’t enough snob appeal. I disqualified it because it was TOO successful which doesn’t make much sense. Therefore I am switching my vote back to my original choice the 77-79 Fleetwood Brougham over the Tesla for not being classic American luxury enough.
“In our estimation Cadillac’s great sales success is all that hurts its ‘image’ as a premium luxury car. If it was built in England just as it is, and they only built a few thousand a year, the Cadillac Fleetwood but would be an automotive legend selling very nicely, thank you, for about $15,000 a copy.”
Regarding handling, a critical factor for me to fall in love with a car, Car and Driver had this to say about the Cadillac (BOF), which is exactly how I feel about my ’86:
“The Cadillac, contrary to enthusiast mythology, handles very well. It is agile, effortless and predictable – always going where it’s pointed without any fuss or surprise.”
They described the Lincoln (unibody) handling as “vague”.
Last Great American Luxury car, or Latest Great American Luxury vehicle?
Traditional American luxury cars have traditional size, style, presence, comfort and convenience as features. They are unique in the world, unencumbered by foreign (European) influences.
Imho the Tesla, wonderful that it is does not fit all these themes. It’s too small and too Teutonic in influences. These are not negatives, but they are just not traditionally American.
These days, large upmarket SUV’s fit this description perfectly, so I would say its the Cadillac Escalade.
If we must limit this to a car, I would suggest the last generation DeVille, or the early 90’s Town Car.
The last Great American Luxury Cars were:
1969-70 Cadillac (Fleetwood 60 Special, Deville & Calais)
1967-68 Cadillac Fleetwood Eldorado
1963-65 Buick Riviera
1965-66 Imperial (Crown & LeBaron)
1966-69 Lincoln Continental.
Runners up were the:
2004-10 Cadillac STS 4.6 V-8
1992-97 Cadillac Seville STS (and 1993-97 Cadillac Seville SLS) 4.6 V-8
1994-96 Cadillac Fleetwood (and Fleetwood Brougham) 5.7 V-8
1980 Cadillac (DeVille and Fleetwood) 6.0 V-8
1977-79 Cadillac (DeVille and Fleetwood) 7.0 V-8
1991-97 Lincoln Town Car 4.6 V-8
1988-92 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 4.9 V-8
Good choices for the last Great American luxury Cars. I would add:
1959-1964 Imperial
1961-1966 Cadillac DeVille & Fleetwood
1956-1957 Lincoln Mark 2
I can go with the 1961 Continental. In the context of the time, well, there just wasn’t anything in the United States, let alone the world, like it in either style or substance. That’s really the key. The Tesla is a good runner-up, but I’m not sure its advanced EV technology is really enough to overcome the ‘greatness’ of the current top European or Asian luxury marques.
There are no such qualms with the Continental. It was undeniably at the top of the pile at the time. And it stayed there, at least through 1965 when, as Nate pointed out in another CC, it was one of the first domestic cars (after the 1963 Avanti) to get standard front disc brakes.
2017 Chrysler 300S in black….the basic bad-ass black luxury sedan.
I’d like to nominate the 1967-68 Imperials. Last of the genuinely different Imperials, which were the rarest of the three luxury marques.
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/car-show-classic-1967-imperial-crown-coupe-for-the-last-time-its-not-a-chrysler/
Generally speaking, as this CC points out, the American luxury cars of 1967-68 were the last good-looking, well-proportioned, powerful and well-built American cars. But Imperials were above the rest, IMHO, though they sold fewer than the other two.
The Eldorados of this vintage were absolutely stunning, but Caddy sedans had started down the road of cheaper interiors.
The Lincolns were not as beautiful as the previous generation, but still pretty good (until MY 1970).
Imperials, on the other hand, were completely new, had crisp styling and, for the last time, a full line-up including a convertible.
If one indicator of a great American luxury car is the ability to wear a bright color well – something that wouldn’t likely be said of any traditional (i.e., European) luxury car – then my vote for the “last great American” example would be the 1972 Lincoln Continental in optional Copper Moondust Metallic paint. My family once had a sedan in that color, a dealer demonstrator. The ’72 was much prettier than the 1970-71 and avoided the bumpers of the ’73 and ’74, although I’ve never seen one without crooked headlamp-door appliqués. It was very quiet, very fast, and didn’t need premium fuel. Wonderful leather seats, too – sofas really. Here’s an image of a two-door I found in that color, missing its hood ornament:
1977-79 Cadillac Deville/Fleetwood and 1975-79 Lincoln Continental/Town Car were IMHO the last great luxury cars, that was IMO the last time you could get a luxury car with 400 cubic inches or higher.
To me a luxury car just oozes craftmanship and for that we’d have to go with something pre-war if we’re talking about American cars in relation to my subjective view.
So it seems I’m the only one showing love for the current Continental – I’m actually very surprised nobody mentioned it. At the risk of being repetitive, allow me to say that under the right conditions I’d have one – here in Europe – over any of the usual suspects any day.
We spent the Holidays 2016 in south Florida and were excited to see the new Continental. We did see some, but only a very few though.
It appears that up-town life in Miami and Palm Beach is all about Rolls Royce, Bentley and Italian sports cars.
Unlike when the 1990 Town Cars were introduced, as a long looked forward replacement to the boxy Lincolns of the 1980’s, you hardly noticed the new Continental in the street.
It was like walking about London in the 1990’s not spotting any Rolls Royces.
I am a Lincoln man and drive a Continental here in Europe, but it seems like the 1965 Lincoln Continental ranks higher and higher with me. It may be only a gimmick, but I was so much hoping for the new Continental to have reversed rear doors. It is very much part of the air around the large Rolls Royces.
The least they could have done was to start making the Lincoln Mark X.
I am sure it would have done it for Lincoln.
We were amazed about how many 2000-2005 Thunderbirds we saw during the Holidays,
Well, the current Continental has not been on the market long, so there won’t be too many on the road as yet? That, and the fact that Lincoln has lost it’s way completely in the 2000s with the letter cars. To me it was a mistake they did not produce that convertible or sedan prototype from 2002 and instead went to the not quite coherent cars they made until recently. Unlike Cadillacs which you can buy new here in Austria from the grey importers, no one imports Lincoln cars. Assuming Lincoln can keep on top of build quality and reliability, the Continental could represent a viable option to things like the A8 Audi, S-Class MB and the 7-Series BMW. I’m actually surprised Ford did not consider importing it as its flagship.
You are bringing up something very essential – the official Ford Motor Company dealers in Europe and their ignorance towards US cars.
It has been a major factor and something buyers of these cars to my knowledge having had to deal with since the 1970’s. My personal experience starts in 1983, when I got my first US Ford. It took me be aback.
When – what you call grey importers / we call them parallel importers – started importing and selling new Mustangs after 2000, the legislation pinned them to the wall in terms of service and warrenty of these cars.
The 2002 Lincoln Continental Concept Sedan is a beauty.
It has the looks and appearance of its own – inside and out.
It does not seem to be sharing visable parts with standard FoMoCo cars.
I would put less agressive wheels on it, but other than that, I would not change a thing.
If looking back includes the text and the promisses of the 1961 Lincoln brochures and the printed focus on quality check and road tests prior releasing the cars, instead of just spitting them off the assembly line, FoMoCo would have a worthy contestant to future iconic cars and would be back in the game again
As a resident of the other side of Florida, I can tell you that the new Continental is selling, but slowly. Over in South Florida, you are correct, the Rolls/Bentley/Italian trifecta seems to be the ticket, with lots of “luxury” SUVs as well. Had Lincoln brought out the Mark X, especially as a convertible, it would draw raves but almost certainly not sell. We are entering a period of only haves and have nots. There is no more middle class, or at least much of one. As such, those who have money buy true luxury, and they want either the most flashy, trendy things or old world/old money things, and the others will buy non-luxury brands with the most appointments that they can afford. American luxury focused on the middle class “treating” themselves and splurging on something special. A Lincoln, Cadillac, or Imperial fit the bill for that. Now, not so much. And that is a shame.
I keep a close eye on the new Continental. It’s very internationally sized, just like ’88 Continental, with better engines. Lincoln doesn’t have much to spend in terms of engineering, and I would say it took them quite a while to make the car wider, as I asked. Color combination is impressive, but the car itself is at the same grade as the FWD Continental in the past ( Good exterior, good interior, great comfort )
If you look for a modern day Town Car, watch for the Navigator.
While I do admire the new Continental, I’d never own one, or any other new luxury car. I know that they are keeping up with the times but I have no use for all of the gimmicky technology that has come to define luxury nowadays.
I like the new Continental. A great deal. If I was in the market for a car in that price bracket, I would consider it very closely, and I’m only 36. It really ticks all the boxes of what I like in a modern car–good-looking without being ostentatious, well-engineered, powerful, and legitimately luxurious interior appointments. I want one, and in a few years, I’ll probably consider a used example (I do not expect to be able to afford a $60K+ car at any point in the near future–30K would be a stretch right now!) I haven’t looked at the CT6 as closely, but it just doesn’t move me the way the Continental does. By far my favorite American sedan at the moment.
There’s also no way I’d rank it above the ’61-’69 Continental. Those cars were truly transformative, and in an entirely different class than anything else at Ford (despite a distant mechanical relationship to the T-bird). No other Ford product (or GM or Chrysler) has achieved that kind of distinction since.
I got to ooze around town in the new Continental for an afternoon recently and I absolutely loved it. Loved it!
For me, I don’t have the money for a $100k S Class and no way I could swing a Rolls or Bentley. So, those aren’t even on the radar.
I’m kind of the old market for the American luxury and near luxury companies. I’m a white collar professional for whom a large American luxury/near luxury sedan is the sort of car people would expect me to be driving. I like the CT6 but to get it properly festooned it costs too much. I’d rather have it slathered in wood trim and chrome but be kind of a stripper when it comes to tech stuff. Plus, it doesn’t “feel” like a big car. Too “sporty” feeling for me.
The Lincoln checks all the boxes for me. Even it base Premiere trim it feels plush and smooth. My next car will most likely be the new Continental. I’m only 33 as well, not a Florida retiree here!
Go for it!
Ignore what you think your neigbours might say and follow your own mind.
You pay the bill, so you might as well enjoy it. 🙂
Oh, I could care less! Actually, my neighbors would love it, they love my 300c as well.
I see an odd trend, or at least such amongst my circles (don’t want to try to universalise personal experience too much) in that more and more folks will say they like luxury and comfort, they’ll say how much they like a car like the 300c or Continental but will not even shop them. Back to the Camcords, not even the higher trim level ones, but the cheap cloth silver four bangers. It’s not even that they think of a car as an appliance or have other priorities, it’s more like they are afraid to stand out from the herd. Sheesh. And these people can easily afford it!
Don’t get me wrong, I like the new Continental. But I am baffled by how much love it is getting in this thread vis-à-vis the CT6, considering how RWD is usually praised a lot more than FWD on this site. The CT6 has its own unique RWD/AWD platform, the Continental is effectively a stretched Fusion.
I want to love the new Continental but do not think they did so well in the exterior styling which looks like it was inspired from a cross between a current Chrysler 300 with a Hyundai Azera rear and a Jaguar front end thrown in. Nothing original or memorable here.
And those silly looking gimmicky exterior door handles are a big turn off, especially having witnessed a brand new car with a failed closing mechanism on a car with a 76K window sticker! Yes the driver’s door would not pull shut like the passenger or rear doors and always remained one click open. It’s really sad how over the top demanding we have become and addicted to technology that we cannot even close our own car doors without electronic assist. This car is a rolling electronic/electrical nightmare in the making!
I disagree on the door handles. I didn’t realize they had an electronic component–maybe that’s a bit unnecessary. But the location of them on the trim is, to me, a cool feature and really cleans up the door area. It makes the chrome inset logo on the fender more noticeable without looking cluttered.
I kind of like the CT6, and I’ve driven a few. I think it is way better than the XTS. You can actually see the hood!
However, it’s still too “sporty” and the lower trims have too much of a plasticky feel to the interior. Driving it, it feels smaller than it is which I don’t like. Plus, I really wish Caddy would do something other than the sharp angle Arts and Science schtick already.
I kind of like RWD but for me it’s like a v8. If my next car were to be another 300c, I’d probably get the Hemi but not for the power. Rather, I just like the idea of saying, “Yes, it has a v8…” Same with RWD, I like being able to say my car is on RWD architecture but I don’t really notice much of a difference driving it.
I ooze around town, I don’t really care to throw it through the twisties (which we have none of anyway out in the Midwest) anyway.
1967 Buick Riviera? Oh… Those curves!
One more, just because.
I agree with Mads Jensen (who prevented me from being a complete contrarian) that the last truly great American luxury cars were from before the war. I don’t think anything has exemplified world class leading luxury since the Dusenberg SJ.
Among the newer stuff, I might argue for the Dual Gaia of the early 60s. I also see the case for the Lincoln and the Tesla for regular production luxury cars.
I have to respectfully disagree with your sentiments. American luxury may have diverged and become to showy for Marshall plan Europe, but the Continental Mark II was certainly world class in concept and execution and quality, and the Eldorado Brougham tried to match as well. And lest we not forget, Briggs Cunningham’s Cadillacs at LeMans, and Earle MacPhersons Carrera Mexicana Lincolns….
A good point with those two. My only reason for not mentioning them was that they did not seem to catch on with high end buyers in a way that made them influential. The Lincoln met a tepid response and was kind of a footnote after a couple of years and the Cadillac was like lesser Cadillacs, only way more so. But they were certainly legitimate high end cars that were more crafted than assembled.
Europe was dead in the water after WWII. The most glamorous cars in the world were American, and Cadillac was top of the tree. America led in the Fifties with significant luxury features like powerful engines, smooth automatic transmissions, and cold air conditioning. There were some beautifully made European cars, but a mass produced Cadillac was a better combination of quality and luxury features, unless someone just wanted the one-upsmanship of obviously paying more money for less car.
I like the Buick Enclave. It has more “American” content than practically any other car sold on our shores. It’s also more plush than my old E class yet somehow manages to be less gaudy than the Escalade. It’s the luxury car for people who aren’t looking for attention.
I would have to agree with you. If I were in the market and need a large CUV, it would be this.
Closest thing to a modern-day Electra.
If we’re talking “handcrafted” luxury, I agree with Mads, and JPC, pre-war all the way.
I think the ’79 Lincoln is compelling but the ’77 is the last one without the decontented interior.
I think I’d go with the 1980 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham, which includes the classic design, an actual Cadillac engine, good build quality, the TH400, and no ECM, but most if not all of the options from the ’92, and probably the last to be cross-shopped by a large number of luxury buyers rather than mostly seniors and dyed in the wool traditionalists like me.
Andrew’s reply to JPC’s comment above is fair; I had forgotten about the mid-50s “halo” entries from Cadillac and Lincoln. By the “handcrafted” or “halo” standard, I would qualify those as the last. Tesla is in a modern, global sense, but lacks the classic characteristics, or at least, what I see as the classic characteristics, of the American luxury car. It’s a world car.
As much as I love Lincolns from the 70s, I have to admit that the cars have too much regular Ford in them to have been genuine high-end world-class luxury cars, from the drivetrains to many interior and other trim parts.
Having once owned a 1963 Fleetwood (and having driven a 1962 Bel Air in about the same condition) I can say firsthand how much difference there was between the two. There was no mistaking a Caddy for a Chevy back then. The 89 Cad Brougham I had was nicer than a Caprice, but not really *that* much nicer. Both Cadillac and Lincoln were guilty of cheapening their cars and pushing for higher volume instead of making them exclusive models for really discriminating buyers.
In reading through all the comments, what was the question again?
To me, a luxury car is differentiated from any others by being built on it’s own platform, with that platform being created for a truly luxury model. Top of the line engineering, only high quality materials used, most parts (including most of the drivetrain) being bespoke to that model or series, and built with quality control. Up to the late 50’s, that was the case with the American luxury brands. Packard failed mainly by going for volume, and thus cheapening the cache of ownership. Unlike the true luxury makers, they did or could not spend all their money in creating a new platform for their top of the line model, and then cutting down and selling the older platform as the “junior” model. This is how Mercedes works, and why we have the Chrysler 300 today. They took an old luxury platform and passed it along to become the new lower priced model, albeit for a different brand. Ford did this special platform last with the 1961 Continental. Everything American luxury since, regardless of brand, has been nothing but a stretched and tarted up version of the top selling full size car of the main brand. Soon, Continentals were simply Galaxies, Imperials were New Yorkers, and Cadillacs merely loaded Impalas. To me, that is a shame. When you look at how much a 1950 Cadillac differed from any of the other GM brands of the time, you see the reasons for any price difference. Nothing in the Ford family really shared much with the 1961 Continental, and it made that car special. Nothing has really come close since, and probably never will.
In this regard, a couple of potential candidates might be the last BOF Chrysler, the 1966 Imperial, or maybe some Packard models.
The Imperial suffered from significant quality control issues, and ran Chrysler mechanicals straight out of the Mopar part bin. No special engineering, really, albeit good Chrysler engineering. Packard died before the 1961 Continental, thus leaving that car being the last one standing as my definition goes.
Whether the engineering of the 1961 Continental was above that of the 1966 Imperial seems like it’s a subject open to debate, even though it’s almost certainly true that the build quality of the Lincoln was better.
The 1965 Continental’s standard front disc brakes seem like the only truly superior engineering feature over the Chrysler product. Plus, I don’t know when disc brakes became standard (or even available) on the Imperial. It’s worth noting that the 1971 Imperial was the first luxury car to get (optional) 4-wheel ABS, but that doesn’t seem enough to qualify it for inclusion on this particular ‘best’ list.
The Imperial with a by then unique body and go-slow build would have been my choice from ’60-’66. Was it “dated” by then? Yes, But less so than a Rolls or a Jag. On technical merit it was the best domestic luxo box of the era.
Er,The 1950 Cadillac shared its body with Buick and its tranny with Oldsmobile. The 1961 Lincoln was a 4door Thunderbird.
Even the cheap Packards were Packards until 1957.
Duly noted, but I did not say it was on it’s own platform. It did share the body with the other large GM division cars, and some mechanicals, but that was back when GM let each marque do a lot of their own engineering. Whenever something new came out, it was mainly on a Caddy, not the other brands. However, the Lincoln was not a 4 door T-Bird. And yes, Packards were Packards until 1957, when they became Studebakers, but the brand died due to loss of profitable sales. Junior models sell for less than senior, and the senior Packards stopped innovating and changing in the early 50’s.
IDK if Cadillac got advanced features ahead of the rest of the GM line. Buick (and Hell, low end Chevrolet) had OHV engines while Cadillac still was sporting flatheads. And Oldsmobile was traditionally “the experimental division” and recieved the Hydra-Matic first.
But Cadillac and Oldsmobile were first with OHV V8 engines. Everyone else caught up a few years later.
Cadillac’s first V16 was an OHV design.
Yes, but that was 1930. Buick had OHV engines since 1904.
Buick (the inventor) designed Buick’s OHV engine and was convinced that they were better than flatheads.
The Packard Carribean was an attempt to regain Packards former glory.
Does the new Lincoln Continental not correspond with that? I may be wrong, but I think it has more or less its own platform.
Nope. Stretched Fusion/MKZ platform.
I agree with the Continental here, though I’d include the ’66 to ’69 refresh models as well. Diluted slightly from the genius of the ’61 but still worthy of inclusion. Nothing since has achieved greatness in the realm of luxury, not the way that car did.
The ’70 Eldorado does give me pause. I think the ’67 original, while not quite up to the level of the Continental, comes close to qualifying, and that generation lasted for one more year than did the Continental. But the styling changes for ’69, while subtle, made it look too much like the other Cadillacs of the time, and by extension, too close to a Chevy up front. Cutting it at ’68 to keep the original concealed-lamp front end and unique wheel cover design, the Continental outlasts.
Some other cars have come close–arguments could be made for the Lincoln Mark VII and VIII, the box B-body Brougham (alliteration!) and perhaps even the original Northstar Seville and Eldorado–but all of them have fatal flaws, whether it be not quite up to snuff interiors, too much commonality with a commoner car, or just nothing to elevate it from “good” to truly “great”.
In the case of the 70 Eldorado, I think it was that the standard Cadillacs (1969-70) began to look like the Eldorado rather than the other way around.
To be considered great, the car needs to stand the test of time, so any thing after the end of the last century is too new to consider. I would also assume engineering is not a consideration so much as style.
The 1961 Lincoln platform ran through the 1969 model year with the usual minor styling freshening from time to time.
From about 1970 onward Cadillac’s body on frame RWD sedans had plastic trim on the interiors until the end as near I as I tell looking at the 1990 and 1994 brochures (I have both). The FWD Fleetwood’s had real wood trim.
I think Cadillac’s fins sort of rule it out for style, as least until the mid-sixties, then after the sixties the plastic wood rules it out again.
The 61 through 69 Lincoln is not bad, had optional wood trim (at least for 61), and while perhaps not great, is quite good. I am not quite sure of the Imperial’s. The Imperial is similar to the Lincoln in the later sixties.
It would be very hard to argue against the ’61 Continental as the most important and most beautiful American luxury car since the since the Cord L-29. With the Continental, Elwood Engle washed away the fin-encrusted fifties and ushered in what I consider to have been the Golden Age of American automotive design.
The question really is which car comes in second. For me, that would have to be the 1966 Toronado. That thrusting front and seamless transition from roof to rear fender…magnificent. To fill out the podium, I’d have to add (call me crazy) the 1976 SeVille, if only because this one I might actually be able to afford.
It is the Ford F Series Platinum and King Ranch trucks
I am going out on a limb here with both the fact that it is not a car and is still being made.
However it does share a lot of same things as the classic luxury cars of old. For example these F- Series trucks are some of the most expensive vehicles in the Ford and Lincoln line ups. They are also rear wheel drive, offer gobs of room and “trunk” space and have very comfortable interiors and like the luxo barges of yore, have that “In your Face” look/presence.
And like the big old luxobarges of yore, the fullsize luxury pickup truck is a distinctly American creation.
Up until the 1970’s Cadillac and Lincoln were considered “the” luxury car for a majority of Americans
In the 1980’s the luxury cars to own were Benz and BMW.
In the 1990’s through the 2000’s Japanese and German luxury cars were the things to have to show you have arrived.
But by the 2010’s the vehicle to show you have arrived is a $60,000+ full size pickup truck.
My vote is the 1981-1983 Chrysler Imperial. Say what you will….
The best execution of the bustlebutt. Probably 1981’s most beautiful car. Which is sort of like saying, “For an orangutang, she’s pretty hot.”
Still, I’d love a baby blue Frank Sinatra Edition in my driveway
’77-’78 Lincoln Mk V. 460, C6, 9 inch rear w/4 wheel disc brakes.
Picture a stock appearing Bill Blass edition (Blue and White) with a 750hp bored and stroked built 521. Rolling down the highway with those 2.65 rear gears, full exhaust and along comes a contemporary Audi A8. Downshift into second and show ’em what ‘merican powa still means! There are very few luxury cars that could keep up (limited to 135 mph w/3 speed C6).
That is a dream car and doable as there are many clean examples between $10-$20k. Add $10k to redo the engine and rebuild the trans.
Beautiful.
Stutz Blackhawk/Bearcat
Had their own sinister look…Ran off GM internals, but who cares?
With a sexy, elegant exterior like that…No one notices, the engine.
That car had road presence, prowess and class all in one.
>but who cares?
Apparently Americans don’t, otherwise they wouldn’t have thought up or bought this dressed up, overpriced pile of mid-grade mass market garbage. Putting silly sheetmetal and side exhausts on a mid ’70s Pontiac Grand Prix is just as bad as those Mercury Cougar Zimmers. The vehicular taste analogy to McMansions.
I take as the measure of greatness in this arena international acceptance. Is it good enough that it’s wanted around the world? That’s the true mark of leadership in lux automobiles.
And the last American car to attain that mark was the 1975 and-a-half Cadillac Seville. I saw them all over Europe, well up into the ’80s. Even saw one in Japan once.
But oh, the ’61-69 Continentals are glorious. And please let’s not forget the Imperials up to ’67 had a quality and solidity that really set them apart from the run of the mill.
Tesla? It’s expensive, but it somehow doesn’t fit the category of luxury car in my mind. It’s more in the sports-experiment category. There’s nothing lavish or elegant about them. Materials are ordinary, and assembled just well enough. But not quite in the luxury league.
The overseas popularity of the Seville may have just as much to do with size as it has to do with quality (after all we’re talking about GM in the mid ’70s here). From one year to the next it shrunk 8 inches in width and some two feet in length, making it smaller than an aircraft carrier and finally suitable for European roads. Well, somewhat. It was still a good bit longer than an S-Class.
2011 Lincoln Town car. Everything since has been a watered down FWD based hunk of blandness and Cadillac’s have been equally bland RWD German wannabes.
The Tesla is a contender but it’s price is more of the luxury than the car itself. And I have never warmed to it’s styling.
This is a fascinating discussion. While I hold hope for the current and future Lincoln and Cadillac offerings, I too go back to the mid sixties, but with a twist.
I’d make 1964 the last great year of the American Luxury Car, if not the American car overall. Because in 1965 Cadillac dropped the Series 62 as the base Cadillac, which was in line with GMs upper mid-priced and luxury model of offering a based series with a minnimum of class-expected refinement, and introduced the Calais as a defacto stripper Cadillac, a concept previously limited to the low-priced Chevrolet. It was all downhill from there.
But a ’64 Cadillac, Lincoln, or Imperial was still a cut above other American cars, and competitive, on its own terms, with the best of the rest of the world.