Recently a reader sought some advice about a predicament he was in.
Seems he had purchased a 1997 Lincoln Town Car long-distance, sight unseen, for $600 plus shipping. It was clean, straight, looked well-kept, and only had around 125,000 miles on the clock. But once it arrived, he found out it wasn’t quite the cream puff he’d been expecting:
…the alternator was not installed and the serpentine belt was shredded. The alternator was not the right one for the car so I bought a new alternator and belt which I installed. At this point I thought I was done but the engine would crank over but no start. My mechanic checked it and said that there was no compression on all cylinders. He guessed that the engine had severely overheated. His suggestion and estimate was $2k to drop in a used engine. Do you have any advice for me?
My response? If you trust the mechanic’s verdict, and if have the time and the space, I’d whip out the wrenches.
I buy a small handful cars each year, which means I end up selling a few as well – gotta keep the ol’ cylinder index from getting too ridiculous. Most of the cars I take on were given up on by their owners, for one reason or another. Sometimes it’s mechanical, sometimes it’s body damage (accident, etc) – but it’s always something. I almost never buy a car that I can drive home… that’s why I get them so cheap. But it also means that I have to get dirty and put in the time. It’s not always fun, but the results make it worth it.
From the details in the reader’s email, I assume he has about $1000 in this car as it sits. Book price is a shade under $2500, best case (unless it’s got options or provenance I’m not aware of) – so if it were mine, all said and done I’d plan on asking $2250 and taking $2000.
Now, myself, I’ve never actually bought a car sight unseen. I like to look them over first. Had I encountered the no compression situation, knowing what motors are worth and what I could get out of it, I would have limited my total outlay to $500, $600 tops if it was truly immaculate. But sometimes you end up with lemons and need to make lemonade; it’s happened to me once or twice too.
Since the reader says he’s “flipped” cars in the past, I assume he’s no stranger to working under the hood. If you’re willing to take it on, I said, the good news is that 4.6 V8s are every-freaking-where. You can’t swing a cat without hitting a 4.6, no matter where in America you are. Around these parts, $400 will buy you a strong runner, ready to drop in, any day of the week. I would guess prices to be similar in his area. Car-Part.com is a good place to start.
You will need basic hand tools, possibly a few specialty tools (such as fuel line removal tools – I’m not a Ford guy, so I don’t know exactly), a basic “cherry picker” style hoist (aka shop crane), and the patience and determination to spend a few evenings on the garage floor. I assume you have access to tools. The hoist can be had for under $200 at Harbor Freight or your local equivalent, less at a pawn shop or on craigslist, or perhaps free if a friend can loan you one.
After that, it’s just a matter of getting the information and getting to it. Your local library will likely have Chiltons and/or Haynes manuals to help guide you, and I’d also look in some of the enthusiast forums online. There might even be videos on YouTube that could help prepare you for what to expect. It all tends to be pretty simple; some of it might be slightly frustrating, but in the end it’s just a series of steps. Make note of everything you disconnected and removed (or take pictures!), re-apply it the same way, and you’ll be golden.
BUT – it is important to note that disabled vehicles are something of a “pig in a poke”. Sure, you may be able to put in a new engine and have it running and moving under its own power… $500 profit at least, right? Maybe not. If you can’t drive it, you don’t know that the transmission is good, that the suspension isn’t loose as a goose, and so on. Another disadvantage to buying cars long-distance is that you can’t size up the owner and look at the clues which might guide you here.
If you don’t believe it’s been hooned, if you have reason to think it’s been well cared for up until the incident that killed it, I’d say go for it. Likewise, if you’re not afraid of eating up more of the potential profit on issues you might find later, then no worries. But you have to be the judge.
If you decide to press on, I told him, I wish you the best of luck. But if you decide to punt it, I can certainly understand that too. Especially if knowing what it’s going to take to finish has left you no longer in love with the car, I’d say throw it on craigslist for $750 (assuming you have title for it) as a fixer-upper, and call it a lesson learned.
They weigh what, two tons? more? What’s scrap at? Maybe this boat is worth $300 at scrap? Cut your losses and try again. Lesson learned.
If it cranks but has no compression, why not replace the heads rather than the entire engine?
Because the cost of reconditioned, pressure tested heads would probably cost more than a low km used engine.
I fully agree, and can add these additional points:
1) When it’s all said and done, changing out a long block probably involves fewer steps than pulling the heads.
2) With a used motor, you don’t have to time two camshafts.
3) With a used motor, you don’t have to torque to yield 20 headbolts.
4) You’re less likely to strain your back using a cherry picker to lift the engine, versus lifting two 70 pound heads off the block while leaning over a fender.
5) Given the engine has no compression, it may need more than two new heads.
find a wrecked ’97 Panther that runs and drives for $500, swap the entire drive train, sell the carcass for scrap.
Maybe look for another 97 Townie that has body or interior damage but is a good runner? Maybe a guy could use the known good parts to make a decent car out of two bad ones. Then follow eggsalad’s advice and scrap the bad one.
Pulling a 4.6 from a Panther is not for a first time engine swapper. The engine is tucked right up against the firewall underneath the wiper tray.
I find it hard to believe that it has no compression. If that is the case then it would crank very very fast.
It is very hard to overheat a 4.6 to the point where it would blow head gaskets to the point where all cylinders have zero compression.
You need to either take a compression reading yourself or get a second opinion.
Hear, hear, Eric. If one does not have the proper tools and work space, one would be best off simply paying a good indie to do this kind of job.
Were I to keep this car (and I would not) I would have it towed to a competent technician and have him correctly diagnose it. Why would I do that? Well, I am not a mechanical technician. They are experts. I am not. I could bugger around for months replacing things and never finding the problem.
After a while doing this, I would either throw up my hands and walk, or do what I should have done in the first place: take it to an expert!
“Pulling a 4.6 from a Panther is not for a first time engine swapper. The engine is tucked right up against the firewall underneath the wiper tray.”
Aha! See, that’s what I get for trying to apply my GM knowledge to other brands. (If this were the equivalent Roadmaster or such, those I can do in a few hours; any properly motivated Tom, Dick, or Harry could do one in a weekend. Worst part is dealing with rusted exhaust manifold nuts/studs, if you’re unlucky enough to have to.)
But yes, all that falls under “if you trust the mechanic’s verdict”. A second opinion is always a good idea.
The room underneath the hood of a Roadmaster, or a Fleetwood for that matter, is staggering.
The 4.6L is a huge motor for its displacement thanks to OHC and a loooooooooong stroke. It’s like a big block in terms of physical volume – the DOHC mod motors do an excellent Boss 429 impression. I’ve got a SOHC 4.6L and a GM 5.3L in my fleet and the difference in bulk between the Modular and a GM LS/Chevy 350/Windsor 5.0L is just shocking.
I don’t understand why everyone else in the auto industry insists on sticking with old fashioned OHC architecture for their very large displacement V8 engines when GM has shown how successful the modern OHV layout can be.
I agree with getting a second opinion too. I would hope the mechanic would know what he’s doing but I can tell you I had a hard time getting reliable compression readings on my 4.6L – the spark plug holes are so far down in the head it’s hard to get the tester threaded and seated properly – I never did get a reading on cylinder #8 and just had to assume since it was running smooth and the rest checked out that it was probably OK. By the end, I was just happy to get out of there with out stripping one of them out.
True true, no compression on all cylinders is a bit of a reach. I wonder if the “mechanic” stuck a compression gauge on ANY cylinders or just listened to the way the engine sounded when it turned over.
When we first tried to crank my wife’s auction-special ’96 Odyssey at the DWI-forfeiture auction, we somehow flooded it and in doing so, it washed the oil film off the cylinder walls & the thing sounded like it had a broken timing belt when it was turning over.
It gave me a sick feeling but after grinding away at the starter with the pedal on the floor, it eventually fired off…
Back to the Ford, just getting the exhaust manifold-to-pipe bolts out on the 4.6 was a task in itself. On a separate occasion, I removed a later-style intake from a Lincoln for a coworker’s momma’s Grand Marquis (cracked water crossover). Holy crap: I ended up removing pretty much everything around the wiper motor area just to access the rear bolts & one fitting before the car gave up & let me have it.
These are fine cars but I’d EOL the car if the engine was bad or sell it as-is & hope for the best. I personally would not transplant an engine in one of these.
Here’s that intake, BTW.
Oops.
I give up.
No compression in all 8 cylinders? Yeah, I agree. Get a second opinion.
If only the head gaskets are bad but the rings are still good, I would strongly suggest upgrading the 2001 and later heads and corresponding intake, which offer better breathing on 4.6 engines. Ford Racing even offered these heads for early 4.6s, calling them “Performance Improvement” heads in their catalog. I believe they still sell them.
If you REALLY want a screamer, pair those heads with some JBA short headers and a larger TB unit from Ford Racing or BBK.
Hot Rod Lincoln, indeed!
The answer is simple. 5.4 V8 mod motor with the corresponding truck transmission, keep it for yourself. 😉
Not simple at all. You’d have to get the 5.4’s PCM and TCM to communicate with the stock electronics. Not easy at all. Anyone who advocates doing such engine swaps has never done one. It can get VERY expensive VERY quickly.
I’m being a wiseguy hence the wink. If I can’t be tongue in cheek here, where can I be that way?
I don’t know. What do you consider “very expensive”?
True, I haven’t personally done one, but a decent amount of people on the Crown Vic forums have done the swap so you would have a good knowledgebase. And, most of the CV forum guys don’t caution against it when the idea is brought up (like when people want to supercharge their N/A 3800).
It also looks like the 4.6 PCM works with the 5.4, but a “tune” is recommended.
You are correct the 4.6 PCM will run the 5.4 if you use a 2v 5.4 but to get all the power out of the 5.4 you will need a tune. The computer will “fix” the fueling on its own since it has a Mass Air Flow sensor. However that MAF will mess up the timing since the computer will see that additional air flow and since it still thinks that the displacement is only 4.6L. It will see that additional air flow as the engine running with greater Volumetric Efficiency which will cause it to provide less timing advance. A flash tune that lets the computer know the actual displacement will correct that problem.
You will need to use the 4.6’s engine wiring harness and you may need to lengthen some of the wires. Since the 96 Panther still used coil packs instead of coil on plug you’ll need to transfer the coil packs or do the conversion to COP process. The only real issue would be the throttle cable and cutting the hole in the hood to fit the truck intake as no low profile car intake exists for the 5.4.
” as no low profile car intake exists for the 5.4.”
The guy that wrote the “5.4L Swap Guide” on the CV forum said there is one that exists, and won’t require hood modification, but it does cost about $700.
http://www.hiperformancesolutions.com/54.html
Interesting how one’s time is assumed to be “free.” I always value my time and if I can pay someone else less than my time is worth, then they do it, not me. Kind of explains why I don’t even wash my cars anymore…
@ ajla, did not know about that intake. It appears to be based on the later plastic car intake with the center intake port so it should bolt right in and accept the 4.6 intake elbow and throttle body for no mods to the TPS wiring, throttle cable, or air cleaner ducting.
@ Cannucklehead, not everyone makes more than $90-100 per hour so DIY auto repair can represent a significant savings even after factoring in the value they put on their time.
I really wouldn’t consider the 5.4 2V as any sort of upgrade unless you absolutely needed the extra bit of low end torque it produces. They aren’t exactly powerhouses with the long stroke.
Swapping one is easy. First, there is no TCM, it’s integrated into the PCM and both will use the same 4R70w anyway. Second all of the sensors actuators and everything lay right where they were with the 4.6(assuming you use adapter plates to use the 4.6 intake manifold) so it’s just a matter of getting the PCM burned for the extra displacement.
Take it to an expert and get a proper compression test done zero on all cylinders is very hard to achieve or simply scrap it. I have a bought sight unseen Nissan it runs and drives perfectly it just has rust and dents and when koshered will just be a cheap used car.
Put me in the cut your losses camp. If the motor is completely ruined (zero in all cylinders does seem odd though, check again first) who knows what other challenges await?
After a similar experience with a project motorcycle Mrs DougD’s rule is that projects must run before being brought home. This policy has worked out well for me.
Never abandon a Towncar! Especially if it’s in otherwise decent shape.
I’m in the check them yourself camp. I have never encountered a car with an intact block having no compression to any cylinder. Get a screw in gauge and do it yourself. 20% loss from new is acceptable. Since you have nothing to lose, if it is indeed toast, try the additive route. It has never worked for me, but miracles happen all the time.
Tough problem. When a car gets to be this old (16 years old), stuff like this is bound to happen. Do you like the car? If not, cut your loses. Back in ’82, I found my ’68 Polara 500 convertible and I faced the same dilemma: Engine was shot. Transmission was shot. It really should have gone to the crusher. However, I liked the car. I did what it needed. But, I kept it and it’s parked in my garage today.
The 90-97 Town Cars are beauties. I’d look for another with a better engine/tranny and do a swap. But, you’ve got to be ready for major mechanicals on any vehicle this age. If this is a body you’re interested in, I’d go for it. If not, figure out the cheapest way out.
From my experience, you can’t flip cars unless you do most if not all of the work yourself. The average profit over the last 30 years doing it occasionally is $500 each. Yes, you make a killing on some but then you lose your investment on others or merely breakeven to get it out of your sight.
Take the $300 from the scrapper and call it a day.
I also did a lot of flipping in my younger days and my average profit was exactly what you state and that is not accounting for the time my buddy and I put into it. I also had a completely equipped garage-with a machine shop.
And yes, I did lose my shirt a couple of times until I learned in that market, cars less than $1000 rule.
The last time lost my shirt on a lemon was on this ’92 Bonneville (see below). I figured it just needed a tie rod end and a tune up. Turned out to be a compression issue and about a million other things (struts, bushings, leaky gas tank, AC fan, etc). It was not worth the effort so I dumped it cheap after showing it to maybe a half dozen or so prospective buyers first. Such a waste of time and effort. Amazingly, I only lost about $75 on the whole deal. The lesson? If a car isn’t running right when I drive it and I don’t know beyond a shadow of a doubt why, I walk away from it. I’m a little more picky about the “projects” I take on these days.
I learned the hard way that wrenching on somebody else’s nightmare was not for me, so I learned what could be had cheap, was reliable and easy to fix, not to mention popular. We hit on the German VW Rabbits, which were great DIY cars and as simple as dirt to wrench on. There were loads of cheapola repro parts from Brazil for them. We score a $200 Rabbit, do the brakes, maybe a waterpump and clean it up Soon it was a $1000 Rabbit and very easy to sell. The diesels sold even better. Around 1990 I could easily get $3000 for a good 1980 Diesel 5 speed. A 1978, clean would run $1500. Good money in it!
“From my experience, you can’t flip cars unless you do most if not all of the work yourself. The average profit over the last 30 years doing it occasionally is $500 each. Yes, you make a killing on some but then you lose your investment on others or merely breakeven to get it out of your sight.”
+1 all the way… that pretty much sums it up. (I usually have a pretty good sense for it, and sticking to the models you know best helps – but I have had to accept break-even prices a few times, and took a serious bath on one particular ill-advised jalopy years ago.)
I’ll give ya $50 for it…
Is Keith CC’s new equivalent of Sajeev Mehta? If so, keep up the good work.
Cranks, but no start and no compression? Broken timing chain? But the mechanic would have to be pretty bad to miss that.
The problem is that there are 2 timing chains though one breaking could take the other one out as well. However since they are quite heavy duty the likelihood of one breaking on an engine with less than 500K is very very low.
Thanks, Eric.
In my operation, we have loads of experience with the 4.6. The early ones had a few teething issues, mostly spark plug and cracked intakes, but the later ones are unkillable. We use them in our Ford vans and Cubes and I can’t recall one ever having an issue. They are agricultural in character, a real working beast. Nothing flashy, just gets the job done.
I has to be the ugliest looking motor I have ever seen, though.
Zero compression on all 8 points to a timing problem as Eric said, easiest way to check is squirt oil down the bores and retest no comp would then be an obvious valve train issue
I could be very wrong but to me the engine in the town car seems to be the old 5 liter judging from the intake. If it is, how did it get in there?
Random pictures – not actual vehicle in question. (Not even all the same year!)
OK, it’s not just me, I was thinking that photo looked like a ’90 too.
Ford put it in there. The 1990 Town Car, the first Aero Panther kept using the old 5.0, the mounts on the frame were unchanged so you could drop a 4.6 in place of a Box Panther’s 5.0 using a 4.6 and AOD-E dressed for installation in a 2002 or older Panther. If you used a 4.6 produced before 1/92 you wouldn’t even need to change the trans. The first casting run of the 4.6 used the same bell housing pattern as the 302. However it got its own bell housing pattern when they switched from the AOD to the AOD-E.
In fact the 1990 TC used a lot of the old chassis too. For example it still used the old spindles, upper control arms and rotors. On the other hand the calipers are the same as used on the 91-94.
Part of the reason they were able to change the TC at different times as the CV/GM is the fact that at the time the Lincolns were produced at the Wixom assembly plant while the lesser Panthers were produced at the St Thomas plant. That allowed them to solder the old Lincoln until 1979 and the Panther CV/GM started in 1979 and then for them to start the Aero TC in 1990 while the box CV/GM stayed in production until 1991.
One of the likely reasons that everything was designed to interchange between the early 4.6 and the 5.0 was so they could produce the Box CVs for issue to fleets for testing purposes. That was the same reason that the Econoline got the V10 first so they could send those out for fleet testing before they showed up in the Super Duty.
Very interesting! Thanks for posting that Eric. The manufacturing side has always interested me.
Jack Handey said it best: “When life gives you lemons, take them, because, hey, free lemons.”
Thanks, I am no expert in determining various years of this bodystyle. I do remember though that only the 1990 had the 5.0.
Part the thing out, the intake can get you 50 on ebay, a trunk 75 those 80 style turbine wheels are worth a couple hundred, especially if they have good tires on then. If the air ride is good the compressor could get you another 50. Since you have a car that’s done after the mid nineties facelift exterior trim bits are worth a fair deal, and if that soft touch trunk lower-er is in good shape those are always in demand. A car like this with a blown engine is worth more in parts on ebay then whole with a used engine. Maybe this old girl’s time has come. Its sad to see it happen but going farther on this would be a labor of love not economics.
The chance of having no compression on all 8 cylinders is in line with oil prices coming back down to .99 cents a gallon in the states. Use a good compression tester that actually screws into each cylinder instead of the ones that push in. I’ll just bet there is compression on those cylinders after all. Have you pulled out a spark plug and wire to see if it is getting spark? I have seen fried ignition modules cause a no spark condition and even severely dirty crank sensors also cause this condition. Is the fuel pump working when the ignition is turned on? A dead fuel pump means no gas up to the injectors causing a cranking but no start condition. With a couple of simple tools this should be very easy to figure out where the problem lies. Also is there coolant in the radiator? Very low coolant could mean a cracked head or blown head gasket if indeed it was overheated badly. This should not be hard to figure out if and when you get it running.
Finding a friend with a good scanner can diagnose this in no time and with today’s vehicles no mechanic today should be without one.
Very nice posting and nice blog