(first posted 7/8/2017) There were several large-vehicle manufacturers in the early to mid-twentieth century that that were well known for their heavy-duty trucks, but less well-known for their buses – we looked at one several weeks ago; Mack, and in a future post we’ll review another; Kenworth. Today, we’ll examine several bus models from the White Motor Corporation.
No discussion of White can begin without mentioning its most well-known model – the 3000-series COE medium-duty truck and tractor. From its introduction in 1949 until the last one came down the line in 1967, it was a routine sight across roads throughout the US and Canada. As a guy of a “certain age”, it’s an indelible part of my childhood memories. It deserves its own separate post, but I mention it as it appears to influence one of the bus models we’ll review below.
Much like Mack, buses were a key part of White’s product line in the first part of the twentieth century. They made a variety of conventional, front engine buses throughout the 1920’s and 30’s.
Perhaps White’s most famous coach during this period was the 706, a bus built for transporting tourists at national parks in the Western US – most famously at Yellowstone and Glacial. They had bodies designed by noted industrial stylist Alexis de Sakhnoffsky, and came with pull-back canvas tops so passengers could stand and see the sights. Refurbished models are still in use at both parks.
In 1937, the company introduced an urban transit model, the 700 series. It was 96 in wide and came in 30 and 35 ft lengths. As with Mack, it wasn’t broadly sold but it did have certain loyal customers – Cleveland, Washington DC, and Boston all had White’s in their fleets.
What was most unique about this model was its power train – it had a White 464 cu in, 165 hp horizontally opposed “pancake” 12 cylinder gas engine mounted amidships underfloor. It made for a bus with (relatively) snappy acceleration.
You can see and hear a little of this 12 cylinder in this video of a beautifully restored 748 model that’s part of San Francisco Muni’s historical fleet.
The longer 35 ft 798 model continued in production until 1948, when it was revised as the 1100 series. An updated front and option of a Cummins diesel (in 1951) to replace the thirsty gas flat 12 were the major changes.
Later, White added a small grill to the front – somewhat similar in appearance to the 3000 truck. But as we’ve seen with so many other bus manufacturers in the post war period, GM with its superior Old Look coach and large production capacity was able to completely dominate the urban transit bus market – and the last model, the 1150, came down the line in 1953.
White would go on to proposer in the large truck market of the 1960’s and early 70’s, with its Freightliner and Western Star model lines. But by the mid to late-70’s, the company was in dire financial trouble, and after several attempts at consolidating with other US and European partners, it was purchased by Volvo Trucks in 1980.
Lovely old rigs =8-) .
-Nate
That flat 12 engine looks fascinating, didn’t know it existed! Looks like a real space saver. I like the design of the body on these, they looked pretty modern for the times.
Another bus I was only just barely aware of. Ye, the styling resemblance with the 3000 truck is subtle, but instantly recognizable. Loved the video of that sweet old bus. What a honey! And that flat 12 looks like a tough engine that could take whatever was dished out at it in transit service.
Thanks for my continuing bus education!
Fascinating, but maybe I’m biased coming from Cleveland and having heard bits and pieces of the White motors saga from those who were there.
Someday CC will need a feature on how the different flat engines were constructed.
The Pacific Electric streetcar line of Los Angeles was a major user of the White 798, buying them in large numbers until switching to GM TDH 5103’s in the early 50’s. P.E.’s Whites had not only the gasoline flat-12 engine, but also White’s own 2 speed Torque-Matic transmission. The Torque-Matic was a story in itself, basically a 2 speed mechanical transmission shifted pneumatically with a torque converter. During the shift sequence the throttle was momentarily closed and the ignition was turned off. Needless to say it was not too reliable, and P.E. resorted to locking their transmissions in high gear. Naturally that made the fuel economy even worse! Other than that, I was told the Whites were pretty reliable but passengers often complained about gas fumes in the coaches, The White 798 was a very interesting transit coach, but also served as yet another example of how superior the GM diesel coaches were.
Here is a picture of L.A.’s El Monte bus yard taken in the mid-50’s after Pacific Electric was taken over by Metropolitan Coach Lines (some years before municipalization). The Whites were largely out of service by this time, and were still painted ‘P.E. Red’:
http://farm9.static.flickr.com/8292/7734191278_64a4f76961.jpg
My mistake, the White automatic was known as the Hydro-Torque, not Torque-Matic.
Thanks for the additional info Bob – I was going to mention the Hydro-Torque but didn’t have all the extra info you did. I did see where they were not very reliable. Jim.
My pleasure. Thanks for a great piece on a long forgotten but interesting line of buses,
Northern New Jersey had two related companies, Rockland Coaches and Hill Bus Company, the fleets of which were entirely 798s only with three-speed gearboxes. They served eastern Bergen County and the lower fringe of NY’s Rockland County, running out of either the 43rd or 168th Street terminals in Manhattan.
Post WW2 the line (“11”) up through the Pascack Valley split into three parts, 11A, 11B, and “the local” 11C which ran “shorties” like the one in the video, back door, automatic and all.
I grew up with those babies running through my home town and have always had a soft spot for them.
Bill,
I attended Holy Spirit Catholic Elementary school in Asbury Park, NJ. For my first three years, beginning in 1961, I rode to school on Coast Cities Coaches busses that included the White 1150 DW Motor Coach buses, which were my favorite busses, because even then, I knew that they were old and I was, and still am, by their design style, especially the rear window.
The red c o e truck were balintine beer trucks in new York city in the 1960s if I rember correctly they were painted brown (white trucks) that is
I worked in Glacier Park in the summer of 1973 after my freshman year of college and frequently rode on the red White 706 buses to get around in the park. Drafty and sometimes cold but lots of fun. The drivers (also college students) were known as “jammers”, short for gearjammers.
Growing up in San Francisco, I was familiar with the White gasoline buses that made up the non-electric trolley bus fleet of the San Francisco Municipal Railway until the arrival of the Mack buses discussed here a short time ago.
The survival of Muni 042 is due to its being shortened (note that it has only three windows between the front and rear doors) for use on the 39-Coit line, with its sharp curves and steep grades. It remained in service long after the rest of the White fleet was retired…long enough to attract interest from preservationists. Muni has retained other Whites but they are not in operating condition and are used as parts sources.
Not shortened; Muni 042 was an unmodified White model 784 from 1938. Later Macks WERE shortened for use on Coit.
The MUNI 042 was a Model 782, a shortie to begin with. It was used by MUNI on lighter lines, and the 39-Coit, and lasted there until ca.1974, when 2 Mack C-49-DTs were shortened for use on that line, where they ran at least to 1978…I rode one of those buses during my first visit to San Francisco in 1978. To go back to the 782, a demo 782 was picked up by PTC in Philadelphia, and, despite it being the only White Motors bus on the PTC system, ran from when was picked up until 1955, when the new PTC management, run by National City Lines, retired the bus…on PTC, the bus was numbered 1298.
White actually started out as a sewing machine manufacturer before moving into cars, trucks, and buses. The automotive businesses were divested into a separate White company in 1906, but about half a century later, the two Whites made an unsuccessful attempt to re-merge into a single company. That didn’t happen, but the White sewing machine company, now known as White Consolidated Industries, bought out the appliance divisions of Ford (Philco), Studebaker (Franklin), AMC (Kelvinator), and General Motors (Frigidaire) in the late ’50s through 1980 in that order, before itself being bought out by Electrolux. Electrolux later bought Daimler’s AEG appliance business too, meaning they pulled five car companies out of the appliance business.
Ford retained ownership of Philco until the mid 1970s when some of the model lines were sold to Caloric. White Consoldated Industries apparently purchased the overseas Philco operations in 1977.
Oops – Philco did negotiate with White Consolidated Industries in 1974 but that fell through and Ford sold Philco to GTE/Sylvania instead (they held onto their recently-redesigned refrigerator line a bit longer). Philips in turn bought GTE Sylvania in 1981. White did buy Philco’s operations outside North America in 1977; today Philco seems to be one of those zombie brands owned by a bunch of different entities depending on region, often licensed to little-known companies looking for a familiar brand name.
Too advanced for us in Israel back then, all we got were truck chassis with bus bodies…
What year is this bus in the picture please
Late 40s
Was this a short bus from the factory or shortened by SF Muni?
I recall seeing many white busses in the 70’s before the GMC fleet came on when I grew up there.
It was a 35 ft model that was specifically shortened by the shops at SF Muni John – I found a nice article on them several years ago but can’t seem to find it on the web anymore. I want to say that three of these “shorties” were made by SF Muni.
Yes, SF was also a White loyal customer. Jim.
Great post that I hadn’t had a chance to read till now. We had horrid, slow n’ stinky English school buses (Leylands, AEC), and just one petrol bus (a 60’s Bedford) which I loved, because it was driven by “Tom” (who looked in retrospect like someone who might have spent some years in, er, confined company and certainly not to be entrusted with a busful of rowdy little kids upon his release but I digress) and Tom drove like a nutter. Being petrol, by comparison, it flew. Quick ride home, lots of flinging about, lots of excitement. What I would have given then to ride and listen to that magnificent-sounding flat 12 in the video – particularly with a silent, frowning ex-con speedfreak whizzing me home. Sigh. Again, great post, even every bus has (and recalls) a story
We had White 798’s in Seattle. They arrived courtesy of the War Production Board during WW2, to help the over-burdened transit system. I’m told they arrived in two batches and totaled 70 buses. One line, the 42 Empire, ran near our home and we often rode it. They had manual transmissions and there was a hissing sound when they were shifted. Later, when I went to work for the transit system, old-timers told me that they had an air-assisted clutch. They lasted in the Seattle fleet a scant ten years before being replaced by GMC 5105’s.
My granfather worked at the white truck factory in Cleveland. My dad also worked for White but not at the factory. When my dad retired he was a troubleshooter traveling to dealerships and also set up a Volvo wharehouse in Columbus Ohio. They were bought out by Volvo before he retired. As a kid growing up in Maple Hts Ohio we rode White busses to school. They were part of the city transit system.
Mark Zaborowski. I am looking for a friend for a picture from the white factory in cleveand. Is there any possibility that you could have one. He is looking for one with a logo on the factory.
We had 700s in Honolulu back in the 50s. They had bars in the windows on the curb side to prevent the kiddies from sticking their arms out.
I was wondering what year White bus I found while mountain biking on the grounds of Turtle Bay. Looks like it’s been stuck there for decades as the roof and floor are almost completely rusted away and there are trees growing inside it. Must have been some kind of road when it broke down there. Now it’s surrounded by youngish trees and mountain bike paths barely wide enough for bikes to get through.
OMG! If memory serves me right. I drove that D.C. Transit #5406, way back in the sixties. I drove for DCTrans till they were taken by W.M.A.T.A.
I attended Holy Spirit Catholic Elementary school in Asbury Park, NJ and for the first three years beginning in 1961 I rode the Coast Cities Coaches busses, which included the White 1150 DW busses. I was intrigued by their design style, especially the rear window for some reason, and I still am.
Reminds me of the line in one of my favorite Bruce Springsteen songs…
Strangely Ive beard of these White buses but I cant for the life of me remember why, but Nz had buses from anybody who would supply a chassis Ive seen Mack, Ford,Federal,Dodge, my uncle drove a 1939 Dodge bus on a school run in the 60s gradually Bedford displaced everything else especially as NZ rail Road service units There was funny disaster with Bedford mail coaches at one point a large fleet had been ordered GMNZ won the chassis contract and the buses were built and entered service it was then found they drank far more diesel than the tender specified,all of them went back and had the engines pulled and replaced with V8 Caterpillar units, you coyuld tell the CAT V8 buses as some cars struggled to stay with them, they went like a bat out of hell and hills didnt slow them down as a bonus they were very economical on fuel
Very interesting an automatic transmission was available on a bus in 1938. And great video. Looking at what Bob B. posted 6 years ago the transmission sort of sounds like the Allison automatic transmissions used on GMC transit buses, where the engine fuel/ignition stops for a second while the transmission shifts.
I so enjoy the color scheme on the old DC Transit buses. As a very young child, I had to be convinced that the same company wasn’t responsible for both DC Transit and Howard Johnsons…as I naturally assumed similar colors meant similar ownership.
Leyland from England made a diesel used in British buses, which was license built in the U.S. by Fageol, predecessor of Twin Coach and later Flxible. They were available as retrofits on Whites from at least 1949. American Truck Historical Society website has a nice selection of pictures in the Library portion of their website.
We are currently in the process of restoring a 1948 798 White here at SFMTA
It is about 75% done see pictures below.
Come to think of it, when I was young, I went with my father down to Mansfield Ohio one Saturday morning to see a White Motors Truck Dealer for something. Out in the field behind the building were a bunch of old Maple Heights Transit buses that were White Motors. I remember going into some of the old buses and you could still turn on the lights, but they wouldn’t run. My dad worked for White as I posted a few years ago.
Tony, the pictures didn’t load .
Old transit busses tend to be sold off as scrap, when I worked at L.A.X. there was an entire fleet of European buses (? Mann ? IDK) that all still ran well but were tired with bagged interiors .
Each and every one had a nice three band (AM/FM/SW) German made Blaupunkt (means : Blue Dot) two knob radio that worked .
I was told I could take one or all of those radios and I could have used them in my various old VW’s but being a new hire I was skittish .
Almost every one of those buses was sold to a rebuilder who pulled the engine and trannys out as cores and crushed the rest for scrap metal .
-Nate
This is a hypothetical, as I don’t think it was ever done, but could a Leyland Fageol diesel and Hydro-Torque be fitted into a Model 784?