After my last experience, I had hit automotive rock bottom (again!). Here and here, my dad shared his surplus vehicles with me, and he would help me out one more time. This time, help would come in the form of a 1998 Plymouth Voyager.
Ours was the short wheelbase version. A TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) had been released about the accessory drive belt. Apparently there was a good chance of the drive belt slipping off whenever you drove through a puddle because of placement of said belt. Unfortunately, my dad had been stranded many times because of this design flaw. Fortunately for us, the TSB was released shortly before we took ownership of the van and Dad had the water guard and reinforced belt suggested by the TSB installed by the time we took over, effectively solving the problem.
Mechanically, the van was actually very reliable, the engine ran very strongly and the transmission shifted smoothly. We enjoyed the cargo room and versatility, and it became our default family vehicle along with our Caprice wagon.
It was a series of cascading electrical failures that proved to be this van’s undoing. First, the passenger-side power window stopped operating. A few days later, before we could even address the window problem, I turned on the radio. I heard a pop and was confronted by an electrical burning smell. Needless to say, the radio was dead. I replaced the fuse but the radio did not come back–it was fried. I found out soon enough that the radio was not the only problem. All the lights on the climate control panel were blinking simultaneously. I searched online and found that it was in diagnostics mode. I learned how to reset it, but unfortunately it looked like the panel and the air conditioning were fried as well. For added fun, this occurred at the beginning of summer, leaving me a van with no air conditioning and a passenger window that would not roll down. Soon, the battery would drain whenever it was parked for a long time. The mechanic traced this to a resistor under the hood that was draining the battery. Finally, the entire instrument cluster shorted out, leaving us no warning lights and no instruments. It was time to find another vehicle.
With very little money left because of my past adventures, the plan was to buy basically a beater whose only role would be to take me to the train station so I could just take the train to work from then on. A search on cars.com revealed a very nice looking 1997 Ford Crown Victoria at a dealer less than five miles from home. Since I had experience with B Bodies, I thought I’d give the Panther platform a try. It was a hot day in late July, the sales person handed me the keys and I took it for a test drive. The 4.6 liter V8 ran smoothly, but the suspension felt a bit tired and there were some squeaks and rattles. I remember coming back from the test drive and the sales person asking me “How was the AC? Did it freeze you out?” I had to tell her the truth. The air conditioning did cool the car, but it did not “freeze me out.” She said, “let me see what else we have. ” Truth be told, I was willing to go with the Crown Vic but I thought it was nice of her to look.
She came up with a 1990 Volvo 700 series wagon. She did not walk me out to see the car. Instead, she just gave me the keys and told me the Volvo was right outside. I know nothing about Volvos. I can’t tell one Volvo wagon from another. My last experience with a European car was my ill-fated Saab but I was willing to give it a try and was so glad I did. The car was loaded with everything, including a sun roof and really nice leather seats. As a bonus, in the cargo area I found two brand new tires already mounted on factory rims. The car had about 130,000 miles on it, about 30,000 less than on the Crown Vic. I took it for a test drive, and what a difference from the Crown Vic. Strong acceleration and very tight suspension, it felt very much like my 9C1. When I got back, she asked me again “How was the AC? Did it freeze you out?” This time the answer was, “the AC was cold….meat locker cold!” With a delighted smile she said, “…so I guess you’ll be taking this car home today.” I said absolutely and we agreed that it would be $500 plus the van in trade just like the Crown Vic. I thought it was too good to be true but there it was…I gave her the money and they began to fill out the registration papers. All of a sudden, the sales person was gone. I sat there waiting for probably 45 minutes. I couldn’t really leave because I had already given her my money and signed over the van’s title. She reappeared later with an anguished look on her face.
Apparently, the 1990 Volvo 700 series wagon that she thought that she had sold me for $500 was already sold. Through some inventory error, the Volvo I had test driven was actually a 1998 Volvo 960 which cost $3,000 more! As I said, I know nothing about Volvos. She told me she would help me get financing so that I could take the Volvo home, but this simply was not in my plan so I refused. So, she said she had one more car she wanted me to look at for the agreed upon $500 plus trade.
The vehicle in question was a 1997 Lincoln Mk VIII. The car was a blue color with blue leather seats. I took it for a spin and definitely felt the power of the 280 horsepower DOHC V8. However: 1) The AC didn’t “freeze me out” 2) The beautiful dash had pieces missing 3) The Check Engine Light was on 4) I had seen too many Mk VIIIs with suspension sag and feared that this may be what was awaiting me and that correcting it would not be cheap. The Crown Vic was squeaky but it had no warning lights and because it was only $500, and because I was buying any of these cars “as is,” I ended up going with the big Ford. After all, I just needed it to get myself to the train station. Plus, I looked in the glove box and found that the engine was replaced at 100,000 miles, so I was really buying a 60,000 mile car. I also discovered that it had previously failed NJ State Inspection due to an illuminated Check Engine light, but since it was no longer illuminated, I assumed the problem was solved. Happily, I took it home.
I drove it blissfully for about a week. Despite the squeaks and rattles of the tired suspension, it felt smooth and powerful and was actually getting good highway gas mileage for a V8 (between 25-28 mpg without traffic). The trunk was also much deeper than my previous Caprice sedan’s, and it had remote keyless entry.
The next week, it was time to get it inspected in order to get the permanent registration and plates. In New Jersey, an illuminated Check Engine light means an automatic fail, this is why I passed on the MK VIII. No inspection=no plates. I was right about the Crown Vic: the Check Engine Light was not illuminated. There was a reason for that–the previous owner had removed the bulb! In actuality there were four trouble codes, the most expensive of which were two catalytic (cat) converter codes. This meant, of course, that the car failed inspection and that I would not be able to permanently register it until I got the items in question fixed. The estimates were between $700-$900. I discovered soon after that according to the VIN number, it was equipped with the California emissions package and would thus cost slightly more to get the cats fixed. Great–I had just gotten myself into another situation. So what did I do? I turned to Mr. C. of course. You all remember Mr. C. right? He was the one who helped me out with the body mounts on the ill fated Suburban. Here was his solution: 1) The computer was setting two catalytic (cat) converter codes 2) He could clear the codes but the inspection computer would still not be able to pass the car since the car needed to be “driven” for a period of time after the codes are reset to prevent people from cheating by just clearing the codes. 3) His solution was for me to drive the car until it passed the threshold for being “driven” and run the inspection program before the car’s computer flashed the bad code again. He reasoned that the car’s computer may be too “sensitive” and there may be nothing wrong with the cats….Suuuure. At this point, I was up for anything; so I would drive the car for a few hours and return to Mr. C. to see if we had achieved our objective of “sweet talking” the computer. Back and fourth I went; I must have driven over 300 miles that day. Needless, to say, this was yet another on my long list of stupid, boneheaded ideas that wasted time and yielded no results. Try as we might, the trouble codes stayed and the only way to fix it would be new cats. I did not have anything close to the amount required, so I began researching waivers to the New Jersey State Inspection. I found that I had a good case to get the waiver so I began to prepare the paperwork.
That is, until the next day when it refused to start. Turns out the fuel pump had quit… an extra $700 repair right there. Total time of ownership: five weeks. And another one bites the dust…
This vehicle is actually the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. I knew it was time to rethink how and what kind of vehicles I would be buying from now on. After many years with basically the same car buying philosophy, my experiences with these cars were what finally convinced me to go in a different direction. You will see the result in my final COALs over the next two weeks.
About that Volvo ‘misunderstanding’ at the dealer – do the dealers pull such things on purpose or are they really that dumb?
I would have demanded that they sell me that Volvo you drove, or else just cancel the whole deal and never go back to that dealership again.
I agree but in retrospect, I’m glad that I didn’t end up with that Volvo after all. A co worker bought an identical Volvo wagon (same year and model). In two years he experienced timing belt and transmission failure! But it was a nice looking and driving car!
I had a Lexus dealership do this to me, and I don’t think it was an honest accident.
Found a nice used CPO IS350, negotiate a price with the salesman, shake. Come back next day with certified check, sit down with salesman. He brings in the finance person who tries to sell us an extended warranty. I say no thanks, it’s a CPO and already has a decent warranty. The finance person acts confused, and says no, it’s not CPO, but they’ll gladly sell me a warranty that covers about 75% of what Lexus’s CPO warranty would have, for only $27000.
At this point I’m getting irritated, I go out to the car, which has been detailed (removing the CPO shoepolish from windscreen), and is sitting in showroom with my name on it. I dig around, and eventually find the window sticker showing it’s a CPO, in the glove box.
Once confronted with that, the finance person still refuses, now saying the car has 3k too many miles to have ever been CPO’ed by Lexus, it must have been a mistake. To be honest I wasn’t too worried about repairs on this car, so I tell them I’ll still take it, if the less comprehensive extended warranty is given to us for $0, or if they’ll come off the price of the car and we buy the warranty. They wouldn’t do either, so we bought an Acura….
Edit; The warranty was $2,700, not $27,000, big difference…
The electrical problems with your Caravan were all caused by the body control computer. Even at this stage, Chrysler was using digital bus architecture on the cars, as it worked to reduce the weight of the wiring harness significantly.
The problems usually start with the wipers, which come on all on their own. The radio will indeed fry due to excessive voltage. The only solution to a Caravan with electric gremlins, and they will ALL do it, is a $500 (for the part only) body control computer.
For a reliable daily driver, Japanese cars are the only way to go.
That’s a bit generalized, don’t you think? My Civic and 4Runner were no more reliable than my Grand Caravan. You can’t just make a blanket statement like that.
All makes have there problems and weaknesses. These write-ups are proof of that. Having been not only a car enthusiasts and in the business for the past 30 plus years I can tell you there is no magic car manufacturer and when they get higher mileage they all need specific and high cost repairs. As for japanese cars we get Nissan’s all the time with failed catalytic converters that can also take out the engine, plenty of transaxle failures, A/C failures and more. Hondas are pretty good but older ones need more maintenance items like timing belts or worse bent valves due to timing belt failure which can coast the customer thousands to rectify. Their 5 speed trans axles are junk in many applications, the minivans come in all the time with a plethora of issues ranging from power door failures to trans failures to A/C problems and of course electrical glitches. The other makes like Toyota, Isuzu and Mitsubishi all have known issues too and quite often we see Subaru’s with rotted out subframes and brake lines, head gasket failures, trans axle failures and recently several rear main seal failures. And they love to eat wheel bearings. All makes seem bad with this. We have a guy that does nothing but brake jobs and wheels bearings and that is a constant money maker for us!
Really enjoy these stories – nice to know there are others out there that have had as bad of luck as I have. Looking forward to the next installment.
Thanks…two more installments to go
I share your distress when it comes to vehicles that let you down when you have the least amount of money at a certain period of time in your life.
I had a used ’69 VW Beetle that was a mess from the very beginning. The worse automotive investment at a time I could least afford it (second year of college). This is the vehicle that pushed me into the Japanese corral and I never considered a European brand going forward.
I’ve been subjected to that same Volvo trick- How does one always get the wrong keys? And if its already “sold,” how come they always want to help you with “special financing?” I shy away from the stealerships for these reasons, but I’ve had slick private parties pull evil on me, too. I only buy used, and only dumb luck has saved me. The only car, a BMW 320i- I had a pre purchase inspection on was the worst, though it was in storage for three years before being woke up. I have found the tires to be the best indicator; brand quality, said brand and sizes matching, age and wear condition. Previous owners who cheap out on tires tend to do likewise with maintenance and just don’t care. Like S-Classes with mix-matched Korean tires. Hate to buy new, but the next family truckster may need be with little ones on the way. Breaking down isn’t safe in S FLA.
Respect and thanks for sharing, it takes a real man to admit to this. It could happen to any of us.
Thanks
And, this is why I always put a set of four used Michelins from eBay on anything that I sell. 😉
Seriously, it’s usually a good way to tell. Watch out for new tires- the old ones may have been replaced for a reason.
I’ve never had a desire to own cheap beaters unless it was a model of car that really turned me on for some reason, and a more quality example was not available. Following your exploits has convinced me of a very important point:
Car ownership on the cheap is its own punishment.
I figure that if I can’t pony up a minimum of $3500 for a car, I don’t deserve to own one. Period. And I’ll pay extra to avoid getting a car with six figures on the odometer. There’s way more than cheap, cheap, cheap to car ownership. Little things like reliability and enjoying driving the bloody thing.
Agreed. The good news is that cars have improved so much in reliability, durability, and rust-resistance in the past decade that for $5,000-$6,000, if you’re careful, you can buy a decent set of wheels with less than 100k that will give you many good years of service without too much trouble. Once you get under that amount, it’s a crapshoot. And buying a car for a couple thousand bucks from a shady used-car lot, unless you get really lucky (as in, winning the Powerball kind of lucky), is never going to work out in your favor. Back when my sister-in-law was a struggling student, she bought a Geo Prizm from one of these guys only to find out later that it had been welded together out of two different cars. How it managed to get titled in New York State I will never know. She still got several years of decent service out of it, although she’s lucky to have survived her experience with that rolling deathtrap.
I wholeheartedly agree. When buying a used car, take your time and look. Don’t go for bargain basement-go at the level where financing is hard to get for most people. Here in Soviet Canuckistan, anyway, it is not easy for someone with marginal credit to get a loan on a 10 year old car that costs $10,000, and most people will go for new at that point anyway. I go for the lowest km car I can get for $10,000 cash.
I paid $9000 for an 11 year old used car four years ago. I was laughed at by quite a few posters here, and also by some good friends. Well, that old car has cost me zero in repairs in four years and is still worth $5000 in the local market. That’s dirt cheap for driving.
When I had less money I bought cars on the cheap all the time. I’d stick with less popular cars that I could find very cheap but were still in somewhat decent condition. This meant large gas guzzling V8’s sedans and or trucks. These cars were also cheap and easy to fix, and I did all the repairs myself. If I searched carefully, I could usually find older cheap but semi-well cared for vehicles. I had no issues with any of my cheap beaters, and all proved to be very reliable. In fact it was always rust that caused me to move on to newer cars, not mechanical problems.
I however, not only did my own maintenance, but performed preventative maintenance. This started with going over the car thoroughly when I first got it to address all it’s questionable mechanical issues. This included sometimes replacing parts that still worked but were know to fail on that particular model before they failed. This method of buying cars saved me a ton of money on cars and let me invest my money into property instead, while many of my friends blew their money on car payments. I have sinced moved onto buying newer much more expensive machines now that I am much more comfortable financially. I have a friend who is now in their 60’s that has bought cars this way over the past 30+ years and they spend less on cars than anyone I know. I however would not recommend buying cheap well cared for beaters unless you can fix them and maintain them yourself.
Oh, Fred. Your stories are breaking my heart. Please tell me you had a mechanic check out the next car you bought from stem to stern before you forked over your hard-earned cash.
LOL….next week will be better, I promise!
I am afraid your next COALs will have less entertainment value! 😉
Hopefully you did not lease a grey on grey Camry……
Not to worry there will be some entertainment yet…but not the car’s fault.
I hear you. Leasing a Camry to give you a comfortable, safe, economical ride for a long commute is really a terrible idea. I mean, being able to drive a new car with a warranty and then hand it back when you are done is a really bad concept. Sure, it will start, run and drive with zero worry for what is effectively peanuts, it just won’t make the g-forces in the twisties happen.
When I am driving to work on a long commute, especially in New Jersey, I need a car whose shift lever falls readily to hand. It has to be able to canyon carve on Saturday and do a gymkhana on Sunday For these purposes, I am going to get a 15 year old Corvette. It should serve as a perfect, all around car, with excellent economy and reliability. And best of all, it’s not a Camry. It has “soul,” and I can get to work much faster than in a Camry, since it is a V-8.
I seem to be detecting a hint of sarcasm here.
Canucklehead,
You are missing one more requirement: The 15 year old Corvette has to be a convertible, especially during this time of year, just in case the heat is stuck on at full blast
Fred, the removable top should suffice, and if you leave it on, it’s a free shower for you when it rains.
That’s true…nothing like cold water being poured on you to keep you alert after driving for hours. Who needs an expensive electronic driver alert system.
Leasing a car is one thing. Even if it’s not an exciting car. Today is the lease end date on my wife’s 2012 Forte Koup, which hasn’t given us one speck of trouble, and we’re taking the buyout option and keeping the car. It’s not an exciting car to drive, probably about on par with most modern compacts, and the interior is a monotone expanse of blackness with very little style…but at least, from the outside, it’s got a little bit of style. Dealing with modern cars is about the small victories. And a Camry, or really anything with a Toyota badge, is about as soulless as you can get, despite being anvil-like in reliability and ease of operation. The epitome of the appliance car. There’s a happy medium in there somewhere between “2015 grey on grey Camry” and “exotic unreliable money pit”. The trick is finding it.
I may have found it…let me know what you think in these last two upcoming weeks of my COAL series.
I’ve owned nearly 30 cars and “test driven” 50 or 60 I wanted to buy, but didn’t. A Volvo was the worst of the cars I owned. In that case ALL the trouble indicators were there, I just didn’t interpret their meanings. A glossy paint job on a neo-beater? Water trails on the rubber floor covering and down the kick panels? A missing front bumper I thought made the car look “sporty”.
Said car popped a freeze plug within 24 hours of purchase….in Florida. The windshield seal leaked like a sieve in the rain and shorted out the instrument panel. The driver’s seat nearly fell onto the pavement through a very rusty floorpan after a few bad bumps in the road.
I traded it for a new Audi that also developed a few “quirks”.
Fred,
As the resident Volvo enthusiast here on CC I think I should give my $.02 worth.
You mentioned that the ’90 740 wagon that you took for a test drive had strong acceleration and very tight suspension. As soon as I saw the words “strong acceleration” I knew that you had driven a 740 Turbo wagon. I own two naturally-aspirated (NA) 740s and I know for a fact that they do not accelerate strongly, nor do they have stiff and tight suspensions. The 745 (wagon designation in Volvo-speak) you tested had the 2.3-liter B230FT “redblock” engine, which was Volvo’s classic RWD turbocharged engine for many years. It produced 162 horsepower – not a big number but it made up for it in low-end torque. Being active in Volvo circles for years, I have seen those cars rack up ridiculous amounts of mileage without breaking a sweat. They are designed to go at least 400k-500k before an overhaul is needed.
You also mentioned a 1998 960 wagon in the article. By 1998, Volvo had changed its model designation policy – so what you had most likely been offered was a V90. The ’98 V90, which was basically a rebadged 960 for all intents and purposes, was the last RWD car Volvo ever offered before their lineup went to FWD and AWD only. The 900/S90/V90 series used the 2.9-liter 24-valve twin-cam “whiteblock” inline-six engine, producing 181 horsepower. This car would have been much more maintenance-intensive than you were used to. Timing belt changes on those cars MUST be done every 70,000 miles on the dot or you risk breaking it and taking out the valves and pistons. The 2.9 is an “interference” engine. But much like the 700 Series before it, it will rack up many miles without a sweat.
I hope this has helped you.
Thanks PJ…I was hoping you would chime in. That Volvo was sweet…the leather smelled great…it was a white car…AC was strong…I took it through the twisties and boy…it could dance! Power was effortless too….it even had a sunroof! I thought I had lucked out!
Sorry If the article was confusing …I only tested one Volvo. I was led to believe that I was driving a 1990 Volvo but it was really a ’98. I had no clue..still have no clue as Volvos are not my specialty. My Dad did get a new one recently that he seems to like.
Not a problem Fred, happy to help. If your Dad has any concerns about his Volvo just let me know and I’ll try to assist as best I can.
The ’98 S90/V90 were really good cars. That was a platform that had been in production since 1982 and the bugs had been worked out by then. If you had told me it was an AWD XC or R I would have told you to run like the dickens. First-gen AWD Volvos were, and are, not very good.
PJ – We needed a new car in ’98 and my (then new) wife always wanted a Volvo. They were clearing out the S90s; despite my pushing the 90 she liked the smaller S70 package (for $2000 less)….
We regretted that decision…the S70, while a great little tank, nickel and dimed us to death. We finally cut our losses after 5 years and 70k miles. It needed close to $10k of work, including extensive ABS work and full air conditioning…
Sure wish we got the S90…
By the time cars have made it to these lots, their condition is much more dependent on their treatment by previous owners than by their original build quality and engineering.
I’m sure there are lots of people who buy used Volvos thinking “Hey, it’s a Volvo–these cars last forever!” and then proceed to drive 25,000 miles without changing the oil. And then they end up on these lots, looking for new owners.
Urban miles are worth probably two or three times of country miles in terms of wear and tear. When I shop for a used car, I make sure to look well outside of NYC–any car that’s lived its life in the five boroughs or nearby suburbs of New York and New Jersey has had it pretty rough. I’m no fan of SUV’s, but I can understand the appeal when I’m driving on the pothole-ridden FDR Drive. Cars are literally shaken to death here.
Man Fred, again I can relate. With these used lots I’m not sure if they’re completely ignorant, or If they know about problems and cover them up. I’m guessing an even mix as many simply pick cars up at auction, give me a glance and then send them on their merry way. Others probably do that but also ignore the red flags.
After some similar experiences to you I just ponied up some healthy numbers to get on the surface is a perfect car but quite literally 800 miles and two weeks into ownership it went into limp mode this weekend on a road trip. Thanks to a very helpful out of town dealer, we’re back in business but I now wonder…
Thanks Ben…hope the misadventure didn’t cost too much in terms of money and time. Folks by me are having automotive issues recently. Just last week I had to drive my friend and neighbor around after persistent and recurring problems starting her 2012 CRV. It may have to do with the subzero weather we’ve been having here recently
Try the Canadian solution to hard winter starting: a block heater!
Wow Fred ;
I thank you for your open & honest stories , I hope others pay attention and maybe avoid similar pitfalls .
‘ bait &switch ‘ has been a mainstay of Auto Dealers as long as there have been cars ,it sucks but it’s absurdly easy to make serious money in The Auto Trade by being dishonest as you have discovered .
As long as it looks O.K. and starts & drives , there’s always a sucker for every old beater / junker / flood car etc….
I’m a Journeyman Mechanic and I still buy cars like you do but at least I avoid (mostly) the rusty ones , every one it seems I have to rebuild or tinker back to robust health .
This is why I rarely pay over scrap value .
-Nate
There is even a Mark VIII… Apart from mechanical problems, rust resistance is horrible for that model thus it’s a summer only car. But when it is, it’s a very good summer car with fixed roof.
Being ’97 and cheap, there is a good chance for fading out headlights on the way of tag, and it costs $$$$ to fix.
If it was a ’97 then it would have been the facelift with the early projector HIDs, and as you mention repairs to those are very pricey. The ballasts in particular are almost impossible to get currently. Though I understand why Ford changed the design–I had a ’96 and the light output was shockingly bad! Those sleek narrow lamps involved some pretty heavy-duty design compromises.
I didn’t realize the VIII was prone to rust. Here in the mid-Atlantic, or where I previously lived in the south, you almost never see rust issues on a car less than 20 years old. I absolutely loved my ’96 and might still have it were it not for the accident that took it out of service. But they are most definitely *not* cheap cars to run. Reliable? Yes, if you keep up with things. The DOHC 4.6 is every bit as good an engine as its SOHC counterpart. It could even still make a decent daily driver (outside of salt country) as long as you set aside a few $$ for maintenance. But it’s not a car to buy cheap and try to run for as little as possible…that would definitely end badly!
The bulbs for those HIDs were unique to the VIII and they went out of production. Ford didn’t have enough pull with the supplier to keep them in production that long so they made standard halogens lamps to retrofit. So that is the trick to find a 97-8 that had them replaced with the halogens. From what I’ve read they are a big improvement on the narrow lights used on the early VIII’s.
The rust resistance of MN12/FN10 is really bad, just next to Tacoma/Corolla/almost all Nissan/Mercedes W210 or so. It’s unlikely for the materials though, the coating is quite good. Salt accumulates in rocker panels and suspension towers and it was nearly impossible to get rid of, eroding the car quite fast.
The engine of the car is quite good, but the rest of the car is rather complex, with alternator overloads frequently ( especially with leaking air ride ) and double arm suspension to confuse mechanics.
The electrical problems with your Caravan were all caused by the body control computer. Even at this stage, Chrysler was using digital bus architecture on the cars, as it worked to reduce the weight of the wiring harness significantly.
The problems usually start with the wipers, which come on all on their own. The radio will indeed fry due to excessive voltage. The only solution to a Caravan with electric gremlins, and they will ALL do it, is a $500 (for the part only) body control computer.
These cars were designed to last 140,000 km. Any more than that and they rapidly self-destruct.
For a reliable daily driver, Japanese cars are the only way to go.
I really liked that van too. It was clean, well maintained, and even had a fresh timing belt. The engine and the trans were fine. Always something I guess…
It’s not going to happen in rust belt. But it can’t show better in Tacoma
That’s the TuRD model, that’s a lightweight racing frame!
“The electrical problems with your Caravan were all caused by the body control computer. Even at this stage, Chrysler was using digital bus architecture on the cars, as it worked to reduce the weight of the wiring harness significantly.”
O.K. that’s the biggie with Chrysler electrical trouble. Did they ever change to a more durable system?
That’s one more reason to stick with old Chrysler engineering: Unibody, torsion beam suspension, Slant Six or LA engines, with Lean Burn having electrical problems from day one ( thus properly deleted )
Nope, they never did. These cars are cheap when they are new, and they are cheaply made. There is a reason a Caravan undercuts a Sienna by ten grand: the parts simply aren’t as good. They cost a fortune to drive after 130,000 km, when the whole car will start self-destructing. Window regulators and key problems are common, suspension parts, you name it. You either buy it and drive it into the dust or you buy them as beaters.
These cars have the worst brakes I have every experienced. We rarely saw them go more than 20,000 km. The rotors warped with ease and couldn’t be machines. Total cheap junk.
I couldn’t agree more. Chrysler minivans are trash – if it isn’t the transmission it’s the motor, or electical system, or.. just keep naming items. Owning one I’ll attest to brake issues, even putting ceramic pads and the most expensive rotors I could find on ours, I went through a set of pads every year.
You aren’t kidding on cheap. When I was recently buying I could – literally – pick the year, color and model/trim of Chrysler/Dodge minivan I would have wanted and found without trying. Even used prices are rock bottom – as they say for a reason.
For a similar reason I – literally – found three Siennas in the city. They weren’t my cup of tea but the reason for the premium is clear. My final choice I only found two examples of, how it turns out is yet to be determined.. I’ll know more soon. Hopefully good. 🙂
For a reliable daily driver, Japanese cars are the only way to go.
I’m still on the fence on this one as I recently discovered they also have exceptions to the rule, even when finding one universally recommended. That said, at least it seems in this case (after a class action lawsuit..) the manufacturer stepped up and took care of the problem. In my case how it’s handled is still yet to be determined, by the time my COAL hits it will either be great victory or agonizing defeat akin to Fred’s Suburban.
Your stories bring back terrible memories, financially and emotionally, and remind why I finally gave up and financed a cheap new car as my main mode of transport. I’d definitely consider used again in the future, but never, ever in the $2,000 – $5,000 range. Too much investment for too much risk.
It shocks me that people even buy cars in that price range without having them inspected by a mechanic. Talk about rolling the dice! It’s only $50-$100 to have a third party shop look everything over.
Since there are no state inspections here, I still like buying carefully selected $700 winter beaters to use for work and bad weather (this winter: an ’85 Caprice wagon which has been surprisingly reliable), but those are the kind of cars that go straight to the scrap heap as soon as anything above above $50 fails. You get most of your money back at the junkyard in that price range, unlike a $3,000 car whose transmission pukes.
$2000-$5000 car can be a big money pit for most common models. Sometimes third party shop doesn’t do a good job neither ( when happen to live in an area fully occupied by irresponsible mechanics like certain coast areas )
My same plan as yours didn’t turn out well ( $700 ’93 New Yorker Fifth Avenue, even though it returns $350 scrap value after giving up for rust ) because I usually drive 600-2000 miles a week and only being able to afford a low price range, I need some other more tricky and crazy ideas.
So, I came across a clean one owner 81k ’95 LeSabre from Maryland in a Ford dealership ( It turns out to be their loss leader ) at perfect mechanical condition. $2500 is a good deal for horribly salted Michigan. I always wonder why it sit in the dealership for three years, since the car doesn’t have any issues driving in winter, and I got it inspected before and after buying it, mechanics were surprised at how I found such a clean one. As the winter was gone, I no longer need it for 7 months, the problem of LeSabre was found by a guy driving my car after his got totaled. Cold air doesn’t work in rush hour traffic jam on a 90+ summer day!! It explains everything.
So it occurs to me, an older unpopular car with certain social stigma ( granny’s car for example ) in perfect mechanical condition and low mileage can be picked out at a good price, and the deal won’t go anywhere else if it doesn’t blow cold. Perfect for winter car and it can last longer than usual beaters if maintaining tightly.
You are right on. I used to live in Victoria, British Columbia, and there are loads of Grannywagons for sale on Craigslist. I picked up loads of B Body GM stuff for absolute peanuts circa 1990 and there are still loads of deals to be had. An H Body makes a great beater. A good one can be had for $1000, and you can easily get a couple of years out of it.
Alas, I do note many do not appreciate a good used car, since they don’t recognise what they are. Cool, no, but comfortable and cheap, yes!
I’ve got the same exact car as orangechallenger (same color, even). It cost me $200, one of the best beaters I’ve ever owned!
$200…
Must be outside of rust belt ( or extreme luck/family members in rust belt )
And every time I push the gas pedal deeper, the squeaking sound from B pillar reminds me of the weak body integrity of H-Body despite the strut bar. But snow day driving is generally slow after all with quick heat from 3.8 V6
It spent most of it’s life in upstate New York before coming to Long Island, so there’s quite a bit of rust. Strangely, it’s ALL underneath the car – the paint is still shiny and there’s only a bubble or two visible in the rockers. The heater is the best of any car I’ve ever owned and the A/C still works too!
Those cars come cheap in coast areas too, I forgot. If rust is all underneath the car, the fuel line could be on its way out.
@Canucknucklehead: A good friend of mine once imparted this sage bit of wisdom to me: “A dull RIDE beats a sharp WALK any day of the week!” This was after I was proudly showing off the $200 Ford Escort wagon that I bought to flip, but was still driving 3 years later!! 🙂
Station wagons could be even less popular thus making a better deal if mechanical condition is good, but as they are dying out, it’s not that easy anymore ( I saw a ’93 Roadmaster with minimum rust in North Michigan yesterday at 160k with a price tag of $5100. Considering their MPG, it’s not quite cost effective. Adding my personal worries about the transmission even though the fluid was changed several times according to carfax )
$1000 H-body barely exists in Michigan ( except those with plastic rocker panel dropping, since every bit of metal inside disappeared. ) doubling the price will bring some examples from southern states. Closely related fwd C-body returns something good too, but with those combined I rarely see a Pontiac. It shouldn’t be blamed on their quality though.
a good used car can be cool occasionally, like a $3000 woody Mercury Bobcat, $2900 Oldsmobile 88 Coupe, or $2850 Plymouth Gran Fury with slant six, but they all need a cheap one backup for winter.
Here in Yuppieville, nobody will give you a plum nickel for old cars. I recently saw a beautiful 1979 Coupe DeVille for C$3500. Have a look at this nice 1981 Seville for a measly C$1800:
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rds/cto/4861044038.html
Here is a 1995 Seville with the coveted 4.9 litre motor, with get this, only 65,000 km on it for only C$3000.
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/cto/4857813718.html
I should be exporting these things!
Amen to those H bodies
I bought my 1997 LeSabre Custom back in July to replace the 2006 Taurus that I was not able to bond with(there is a COAL on it). I paid $2900 for it with taxes and tags and it came with MD state inspection already done. I got it from the same mom and pop car dealer i bought my Firebird and Taurus from. It had less then 81,000 miles on it at the time and it was from VA.
The car gets good gas mileage for its size and it makes a good daily driver to work.
All in all it is in good condition for its age and it comes with the usual senior owned calling cards (tiny door dents and scrapes on the bumper etc)
It does have its share of squeaks and there is a groaning noise when the car is turning at a really slow speed(such as in a parking lot) which are bushings(I will address that in the spring). The most annoying thing in the car is the squeaking that top part of the dash makes(the plastic part with the check engine and brake lights). Sooner or later when I stop being lazy, I will shove a small folded piece of paper between the upper and lower halves of the dash and that will shut it up.
’97 LeSabre has newer look in line with Park Avenue new in ’97 ( but I prefer the older senior and bigger look ) basically it doesn’t make a huge difference ( older chrome with plastic bumper is more durable in door dents and scrapes ) But in the same dealership, there is a ’99 with zero rust, with Series II engine, I was worried about the gasket ( and it turns out to have cylinder pressure problem after a visit to mechanic shop ) So I chose the ’95. However, Custom comes with the manual AC and no dual climate control, is a far plus comparing to Limited with dual climate control with blend door issues ( like mine, my passenger got frozen in winter as a punishment of touching the control pad )
The squeaks from the body do bother me from time to time, especially after driving a stripping ’06 Taurus without ABS. The ’06 Taurus stripper is horrible in interior ( comparable to my 5-day $500 Tempo ending up at light pole ) but much tighter in handling. Squeaking from LeSabre in body shows up as a big flexing feeling when driving on ramp over 35mph. I prefer the unibody of my ’78 Volare as it even doesn’t make that twisting sound ( but as a low priced model, the twisting sound from rear axle without sway bar makes up for it and the rest handling. sigh* )
Don’t buy old Buicks! They are granny cars! Save them all for me.
So far so good on the 96 Tercel I found for a niece a little over a year ago. $2000 and had 157k miles. Clutch and T belt was replaced at 100K by PO. It needed 2 tires and a clutch switch bypass when we got it. All it’s needed so far is 2 door speakers for $30.00, a new three dollar rubber stop on the brake pedal for the stop light switch, and a couple of tail lamp bulbs replaced. It’s at 175K miles now. Total stripper 4 speed which I like because it makes it simple to work on, and gets about 40 MPG. I agree Craigslist and at the price it was a crap shoot, I’m happy it’s a good car. Like others have said, when the dealer pulled the bait and switch I would have left. Can’t wait for the exciting conclusion of your COAL series, it’s been a great read.
Thanks…two weeks to go!
I really like these stories. Keep them coming, and thanks for sharing.
I have never trusted Chrysler mini vans, from day one. They always seemed to have some sort of issues, right up to the present, the most well known being the transmission and electrical issues, but it seems like something was always wrong.
The Crown Vic (or more likely a Mercury Gran Marquis) is still on my list for a replacement transportation car. I found several ’07 and up models around here on Craigslist with really low mileage, down in the 30,000 range, for around $10K. Yes that seems like a lot of money, but bought from a private seller (no tax and fees) it is about 2/3 the price of a new base model Chevy Spark. The only issue I have with it is gas mileage. It would be great to have a really comfortable car for highway use, but it gets about 6 mpg less than the Malibu, and when you average 30,000 miles a year, the additional fuel cost would be significant.
Volvos used to have a reputation for excellent quality, but when it comes to used cars, especially because of parts, I prefer to stick with an American or Japanese car of fairly known quality.
Yeah if you are driving 30K per year a Panther will be expensive to feed. A few years ago we replaced my wife’s Taurus with a nice low mile Grand Marquis at the time the Taurus was only seeing about 10K per year and the 1~2mpg difference didn’t add up to anything significant. However pretty much as soon as we got it she had to start going into the office 4 or 5 days per week and my daughter started doing dance at a studio that was 35 miles away and no one to car pool with. After a year I looked at the mileage and she had managed to rack up 30K. It was replaced by a Fusion Hybrid that gets about twice as many MPG. With gas near $4/gal at the time the fuel savings essentially made up for the payment.
Ouch, $700 for fuel pump replacement on a Panther is way too much even factoring in a tow. You can buy the pump alone for $100 though by the time you pay the mechanic’s mark up I can see $160, but to do the job it takes less than an hour if the fuel level is low enough. A little more if you have to siphon the level down to below the mounting flange. All told with the tow it shouldn’t be more than $350 assuming it didn’t need to be towed really far.
The fact that it had the engine replaced at 100K should have been a warning flag that the car was abused, it should not have been looked at as a good thing.
I agree. The 4.6 modulars last a long time and witnessed by all the Crown Vic taxis. I go to junkyards and see nary a Taurus/Sable over 135,000 but the few Vics present are all over 300,000. The replaced engine at 100,000, or replaced transmission at 100,000, screams abuse to me.
I have heard that those generation of Minivans needed some wires resoldered in the dash once they got old enough. I had a 95 Voyager and decided to jump to an 03 Caravan hoping I avoided certain issues with the 96-00s and I think it mostly worked. A mechanic told me that due to back pressure a California spec Catcon will result in worse MPG, but cleaner emissions while a 49 State Catcon will have you burning a bit dirtier, but not have a reduction in fuel economy.
I remember when my dad and I shopped for a 2000 Chrysler 300M back in ’04. No check engine light but got a few codes once we got the car inspected and yes, someone snipped the LED bulb out of the instrument cluster. They could take the dash apart to do that but not repair what was actually wrong. Baffling.
The seller agreed to refund my dad a couple hundred bucks but the bigger upside is that he is still driving the car today.
Now I take a scanner with me whenever I shop for a used car.
“They could take the dash apart to do that but not repair what was actually wrong. Baffling.”
LOL…that’s an excellent point!
There’s really no reason not to have a scanner now. They’re about $60 at Harbor Freight – under $50 with their ubiquitous coupons. Full display, lets you reset codes too. (Much easier than counting dahboard flashes like I used to on my 96 Cherokee.) It has saved me (and my friends) several trips to the garage.
I suppose it’s harder to do for a sub-$1000 car, but I always get my cars inspected by my local mechanic. Usually they’re about $5000 and 110k miles, and I have had really good luck with my 02 Subaru H6 and No. 1 Son’s 06 Mazda6 5-speed.
Fred, you seem to have the worst luck! But your stories are compelling and well told, and I’ve been enjoying the series. You can find a bad example of every car and that seems to be the luck you have. I was hoping the ’97 Crown Vic would hold up better–that’s exactly what I have and it’s rock solid reliable. But I know the history on mine–my parents bought it used in 2003 with 33k miles, and gave it to me at the end of 2012 with still only about 97k miles on the odometer. It’s currently at 106,000, as I don’t have a long commute and we use my wife’s car for long trips. Not the sexiest-looking car (my wife really hates it!) but it gets the job done, the seats are comfortable, the A/C cold, and I put a new radio in it so I have bluetooth and MP3 capability. Plus I tend to like Panthers anyway. I personally hate the whitewall tires (!) but that’s not a good enough reason to replace when they all still have decent tread.
$700 does sound like way too much for a fuel pump, but the check engine light would still have been an issue. Does New Jersey not have a way to get around that? In North Carolina, where I used to live, if you can prove you’ve done $200 worth of work on the problem and the light is still on, you can get an exemption. But the cat issue isn’t going to go away, and unfortunately they’re one of those things with a limited life span on any car. Thankfully both of the ones on my ’97 were replaced when my parents still owned the car, as they were about $900 each installed due to the high price of the metals used to manufacture them.
Stories like these are also why I stay away from small used car lots. Too much potential for shadiness as a business model! All of the cars I’ve owned have been either private-party or from the used department of a dealership that also sold new cars (still could be sleazy but the chance is less I think.)
Whenever I see a NS platform minivan (1996-2000) in good condition, I have a hard time believing that these vehicles are at least 15 years old now. I remember when my parents bought a brand-new white ’98 Grand Voyager back in 1998, and kept it until 2010 when they bought a ’10 Ford Fusion. It had almost 180k trouble-free miles.
They never had a major mechanical issue with it, but then again, it was definitely loved and cared for. They liked it so much that they almost went for a 2010 Town & Country, but because we kids grew up and left the nest, a car was more practical than another minivan.
I was in love the day they took it home from the dealership. Soon after, school ended for the summer so we went on a road trip to the Grand Canyon in our new van, and through the years, we traveled many miles on different road trips. This was also the car I learned to drive in. From what I can remember, it was definitely an improvement over the 1990 Ford Explorer that we had before, which was okay but not as nice I think.
Thanks for another nice COAL read.
I was sure the Vic would have solved your problems. I am starting to warm up to the 92-97 Vic and GM models. There are two Grand Marquis rolling around near work that look pretty good. One is that teal looking color that was popular in the 1990’s and the other one is that Ford dark orange color that was offered in the late 1990’s
May I make a suggestion? Buy yourself a set of hand tools, floor jack and jack stands and a decent socket set(all of these tools can be had for less then $200) and a shop manual for whatever car you own. That way you can save some bucks wrenching on your own cars. i will be honest, with the advent of forums and youtube, you can learn how to do a lot of repairs on your own car and that will save you money.
My 1999 Firebird seems to give me grief every time I drive it with its needs. Luckily I know how to work on the 4th gen F body so I am only into it for $500 worth of parts and 2 pints of blood from all the scrapes I have gotten due to poor engine configuration and no room to work in the engine bay.
Had you gotten the Volvo 740, you might have had more luck. Those were bullet proof and easy to work on(replacing plugs and wires is a less then 30 min job) a timing belt replacement is an inconvenience but no damage occurs if it breaks due to it being a non interference engine.
I await your next COAL
Hi jerseyfred.. after reading your COAL after a while, my conclusion is that you might as well pony up a plan for new car payments (or lease – which is not a good idea in my book). I don’t know your financial situations, but so far the car budget that was planned is not enough or you just have the worst luck. Not saying you’ve been hit with misfortunes all the way – I thought the Buick and the Chevy combo did well for the budget (before they go to the repair runs).
I was in your boat for a while, but my commute was way shorter than yours. I did hit a point where my $3000 cars were pretty much pissed me off and realized, heck, should’ve jump to a new car, or a slightly used car.
Buying Japanese may not help – they are usually overpriced based on the similar condition of domestics. And yes, every opportunists may disable the check engine light.
thought there is a way to check if that’s disabled or not. When you placed in the key to ignition, all the lights should be on? (or is the key positioned on acc?)
Tune in next week
Your COAL series has the words of my old car-mentor Howard ringing in my ears. “If it was cheap to fix, the last owner would have fixed it.” “If it doesn’t run and drive the way it’s supposed to, just walk away.”
I have long found a sweet spot in buying cars priced from $2500-4000. BUT- none of them has been from a dealer. Anything that a dealer sells in t his price range is pure crap. It is a car that would be worth $1500 if you saw it in the last owner’s driveway (or more likely, alley) plus a big fat profit margin.
The good stuff is all 12-15 years old, American, and fairly large. FoMoCo Panthers, GM B and H bodies such as a LeSabre. All of them have to have been popular with retired people when new. There will be a lot of relatively low-mile cars that have been well cared for. Those are the ones to buy. I have done fairly well with those over the years. But you must be choosy, and you must (as a rule) stick to middle class and above kinds of neighborhoods, the kind of people who have no problem paying for quality repairs when something is needed.
Very true. If it’s in a neighbor full of Ford Tempo, Chevy Corsica or Plymouth Sundance, the chances are probably the previous owner got the car fixed cheap, no matter which model.
If there is still a good stuff from Chrysler, maybe there are very few M-Bodies, but it’s hard to come by. Few of them still hang around in deep countryside.
If dealer sells a good $2500-$4000 good car, chances are very thin. A car without cold from southern states shipped to rust belt and it can be a good winter car. Or a local trade in like an old man can no longer sit in his Buick Riviera. Most are oddballs, even common models come in an odd way as a good used car there.
Over the past 30 plus years of driving the cheap curbside specials that served me best and had the lowest cost of ownership were mostly GM A\G\B and H body cars from the later 80’s and 90’s. Those Buick 3300/3800 engines simply go forever unless of course you get one of the 1996-1999 plastic intake failures but even those are solved by going with aftermarket fixes from companies like Dorman. Also had very good luck with Tech IV’s, THM 125 C transaxles, 4T60 and 4T65 units. The older G and B body cars were best served in V8 form with either the THM 350 or 200R-4 transmission and I never once lost an engine or transmission on any of those types of vehicles.
My friend is currently driving a 700 dollar 1994 Buick Century from an older gentleman and has put a few things in like a new muffler, a coolant sensor because the gauge stopped working and a tie rod end 10K miles into ownership. That’s about all this car needed and it has not once stranded him or failed. He also has a good customer that buys nothing but older cars, mainly A-body and the occasional AMC Eagle or Ford Tempo and for the most part they are reliable for her. Simple is good when it comes to older cheap cars.