Last week I recounted the catastrophic transmission failure of my 1999 Chrysler Town & Country minivan. When I got the bad news (from both the mechanic and from the finance committee at home) that my latest Chrysler ownership experience would be wrapped up very shortly, I was preparing to do what I had done so many times before (and which has made for such a varied COAL series) – go looking for something interesting. But this time I ran into some resistance.
Marianne has been very a) patient, b) long-suffering, c) indifferent, d) all of the above about my car cravings during the course of our 32-year marriage. They had settled into a pattern where they came infrequently enough (and affected her life relatively little) that she normally busied herself with other things while I went on [another] Great Car Hunt. This time, things were different. “I am tired of your cheap old cars that cost us too much money. I want a new car.”
Ouch. There were the words I had avoided hearing for a long time. Really, I cannot say that I blame her. She had been the primary driver of the Club Wagon for over 11 years, and had been the primary driver of the Honda Fit for the previous 5. She was ready for something new, and by “new” she meant new to everyone, not just us.
When we had hit this spot five years earlier, I had just settled a large case and had extra coinage jingling in my pocket. This time, I had one in college, two in Catholic high school, and a law practice that was starting to show some signs of fatigue. In the form it had hit in the late 1990’s, ours had been set up and staffed as a three-lawyer office. When Larry, our senior partner retired, that left two of us to row a boat designed for three. Try as we might, the two of us had some difficulty finding someone to come in to join us. My revenue was holding but my expenses were getting out of hand. Hindsight says I should have bailed and found somewhere else to do what I do, but there are a lot of things we all might do differently if we could see then what we see now.
This is another way of saying that I was less interested than normal in taking on a big payment, and frankly, wasn’t all that invested in the decision (for the first time in like forever). I suggested that Marianne go out and look at some things and let me know when she had it narrowed down to some realistic possibilities and then we could go look together. One evening I came home and she said “Come with me to look at the Kia I drove today.”
These were words I never expected to hear. When I heard “Kia” I thought of the crappy little Sephia or the thoroughly outclassed 5,000 pound Sedona minivan of several years earlier. Weren’t Kias cheap cars for people with bad credit? But she had not looked at anything like one of those Kias in my mind’s eye – she drove a Sorento. “A Kia? Really?” “OK, Fine” was my unenthusiastic response. We drove to the dealer and the salesman got the keys to the Sorento Marianne had driven earlier. I found myself quite surprised, in that the car was very nicely done and felt reasonably nice to drive. OK, except for the 4 cylinder/automatic part. The Honda Fit had done much to move me out of “I’m never, ever buying a 4 cylinder/automatic” land, but it was still not something I was excited about. The Sorento came with a V6 but those also came equipped with a sticker that was very not-Kia in my mind.
We returned after the test drive and I got out of the Sorento. I found myself standing next to another car’s window sticker. “Wait – what?” It was a new Sedona minivan. I had totally forgotten that they were still making these. But what really caught my attention was the sticker. For the cost of a 4 cylinder, 2 seat Sorento, I could buy a V6, 3 row, dual a/c Sedona. I had been lamenting losing our college-kid-pack-mule vehicle, but suddenly I realized that sometimes it is actually possible to satisfy everyone. “Can we drive this?” I asked the salesman? Moments later we were back out on the road. That V6 made all the difference for me, and both of us decided that this might be a good plan.
I recall balking for a moment, while I thought about another Chrysler. A van as lovely as my dearly departed T&C but getting it brand new had some appeal. “Maybe they will deal to get me close to the price of the Kia” was my thought. But Kia’s 10 yr/100k mile powertrain warranty (and 5 year 60k mile everything else warranty) convinced me to take a chance, especially since Chrysler had replaced the old iron 3.3/3.8 of which I was such a fan. The new 3.6 “Pentastar” V6 was in maybe its second year, and I knew that Chrysler’s recent history with new engine designs was, um, let’s go with “uneven”. Two things have happened since that decision was made – The Chrysler 3.6 V6 has turned out to be a great engine, one of their best. But that hasn’t made me do any second-guessing because the Kia’s powertrain is equally impressive, and the long Kia warranty has not come into play with any frequency at all.
The long arc of a car dealership building: from November, 1961 to June of 2015, after the building had been vacated to make way for a new Meijer store.
A few days after our initial drive, we went to a dealer closer to home. It was a familiar building – the former Jerry Alderman Ford at 5500 N. Keystone Avenue that had 1) provided a test drive in a new 1985 Mustang GT, 2) cheaply fixed my Marquis, 3) tried to screw me on my Crown Vic water pump and 4) sold us our Club Wagon was now under different ownership and was a Kia store. It was also the last remaining dealer on a three mile stretch of North Keystone Avenue that had been car dealer row during my epic 1985 search for my first new car.
It was September of 2011 but 2012 models were now available. Marianne liked the gray paint. Perfect. I had bought two new cars in my life up to then: one had been black, one had been white, and now I was going to average them. But it’s not like there were any color choices that really called my name. More good news was that there were rebates. The Sedona was a slow seller so they were offering one rebate to everyone and a second, equal rebate, to owners of a “competitive minivan”. I still owned one of those. All I needed was a current registration. Nobody said the “competitive minivan” had to be drivable, which was a good thing, and kind of like getting a $1000 trade-in allowance on a 200k+ mile immobile minivan that I was going to give away. I love moments of happy serendipity like that.
As for the new van, I just had one requirement: No power doors. I had spent enough times on forums for Honda Odysseys and Chrysler minivans to know that power doors were problematic on any minivan that got any age at all on it. If neither Chrysler (the minivan king) nor Honda (the quality king) could get them right, I surely did not expect Kia to do so. But this turned out to be a problem. Because virtually every Sedona in Indianapolis was equipped with a package that included the power doors. The salesman offered to get one from another location or dealer, but Marianne balked. “If I’m getting a new car, I want one that is really new and not one with a bunch of miles on it already.” Over the next day or so, our man kept at it, and finally got her to agree to one across town. Then that fell through and he had to go “a little farther”.
A couple of days later, the guy called and said that he had one. “A little farther” turned out to be “almost to the Illinois border”. I perceived some ambiguity in that statement and asked a lawyer question: “Which Illinois border?” After a long pause, the sales guy softly said “Wisconsin”. Indiana to Wisconsin is a lot farther than across town, and was going to result in a new car with two or three hundred miles before it reached our driveway. “You heard her, she’s going to throw a fit” was my warning to the sales guy. Several telephone conversations later, and now with the sales manager, I was offered either 1) the $2,500 power door package for $1000, or 2) $500 off the “almost to the Illinois border” van. We chose B, and soon we had our new(ish) minivan. The bargainer in me was thrilled, because between rebates and discounts, we got this one for a tick under $20K, right about what we had paid for a year-old high-trim Ford Club Wagon over fifteen years earlier. Something tells me that I will not be so fortunate the next time I go shopping for a new car.
At the start, my feelings were mixed. My T&C had been a base-level model, but it had some nice little luxury touches included as standard. In order to get a Kia without power doors, I was forced into a model without one. single. option. I missed things like the dual-zone (for front passengers) HVAC system and the power flipper windows in the “way back”. Our flipper windows are manual and opened from the rear seat or through the hatch, which means they have been used perhaps twice. Our new car also had lots of little blank plugs in place of switches to remind us of what a bargain the car had been.
But neither was it the kind of stripper I had known from my youth. Like the 4-year-old 1974 Dodge Charger that my mentor Howard found for his kids to drive. A stripper in those days had no air, no radio and used rubber matts in place of carpeting. It had manual steering, a “three on the tree” manual transmission and rear side windows that did not roll down. This stripper Sedona came with power windows, a power drivers seat, remote power locks, a stereo with a CD player and Bluetooth in addition to the front and rear air conditioning. This new stripper was equipped much nicer than what most of my family was driving into the early 1980’s, so it was far from an automotive hair shirt.
Marianne happy with the new van from the start. She liked sitting higher than she had sat in the little Fit, and it was easier to get into and out of. But mostly, she was happy to be in a new car. As is shown with her at the wheel during a trip we took to southern Indiana for a family wedding not long after we took delivery of the van.
A positive change from my old T&C was that this thing was SO much faster. Actually, the entire powertrain has proved to be one of my favorites of all time. There is plenty of power, so if I pull out in fast traffic or need to get ahead of a car to get out of my lane that is ending, the Sedona has my back because that thing will really scoot when I bury the accelerator pedal. Also, the 6 speed automatic shifts so unobtrusively that I usually have no idea what gear it is in most of the time. Nor do I care. A couple of later occasions to rent a Grand Caravan of that era have also proved to me that I like my Kia better because it lacks the irritating transmission shifting and not-stiff structure of the Daimler-era Chrysler design.
One surprise feature of the Sedona was a redux of the “refresh” position seating of our Honda Fit. That had been one of Marianne’s favorite features in the Fit and we now had it in a much better travel car. That feature has been used. A lot.
We still have the Sedona. By now, it has taken us to multiple states, has loaded and unloaded multiple kids at college, has hauled multiple family members and friends and has all-around done everything it was supposed to do. It has provided a kind of flexibility that I have really loved – it is comfortable for two of us, but it can also take five more passengers when we need the capacity. It can also do 95% of the jobs most would use a pickup truck for – like the time we took advantage of a big sale on bags of mulch. We hauled 50 bags home with no difficulty, and with nary a complaint from the van.
We have had a few recalls – a redesigned fuel rail on the engine, redesigned weather strips on the front doors, some rustproofing of the lower control arms and an air bag module controller (that resulted in an extended test drive of a newer Sedona). Tires lasted to 60k, brakes lasted to 80k and just before the ten-year warranty expired a CV joint began clacking on accelerating turns.
That last one turned into a bit of an ordeal. I learned that certain cars seem to allow their axles to be taken apart from the front wheel hubs only with the greatest of difficulty. The car was at the dealer for several days and I ended up with new axles and hubs on both sides. I am glad I didn’t have to pay for that one. Then again, it took ten years for the problem to occur.
Non-warranty repairs have included a battery, an outside rear door handle that broke and a thermostat replacement. As good as our Honda Fit has been, this Kia has surpassed it through 11 years and 95,xxx miles, which is something I never expected. Oh – and one rear door power lock actuator has failed. I knew that would happen – this car automatically cycles the locks every time the car goes into or out of gear. I have not found a way to disable this thing that some consider a feature. Marianne is not keen on paying to fix the lock (which we can work manually through the open driver’s door) since there are just two of us in the house now and nobody routinely using the rear seats.
Update – make that two outside door handles. Economists talk about the law of unintended consequences – which means that when a decision gets made, it affects things downstream in ways that nobody thought about. When I went to all of that effort to avoid power doors, it never occurred to me that this would turn those rear door handles into the next weak link. The job to replace them is not terribly pleasant, and our low-level LX trim (which came with painted handles instead of chrome ones) means that I have to either paint them (MAACO did the first for about $75, which was probably cheaper than I could have done it by the time I bought everything I needed to do it at home) or do enough disassembly and reassembly of old and new parts to mate new guts to my existing gray handle.
Something else I never expected was how much I would come to enjoy driving this van. I have written about that at some length before, and now in early 2023 the feeling remains. I am in a place I never expected to be – the owner of two 10+ year old vehicles near or over 100k miles, each of which remains satisfying to own and drive. Which is a good thing since new cars have become so hard to come by (for anything other than “stick ’em up” prices).
I vividly remember how much I enjoyed driving big cars from the 1960’s during the following couple of decades as the American manufacturers fought their way through the learning curves for emissions and fuel economy mandates. While the newer cars may have been cleaner and more efficient, the older ones had been designed purely for running and driving. I am now experiencing this again as modern CAFE requirements have forced manufacturers into transmissions with gobs of gears and aggressively early upshifts, or small displacement turbos and such for some modicum of performance. My Sedona feels, in comparison, like my ’68 Chrysler Newport in a world of ’85 Crown Victorias that are both more expensive and less pleasant to drive. My car has a drivetrain as easygoing as an old hound dog – that can turn into a greyhound when I stomp on the go pedal. And because the Sedona has lived a gentler life than the Fit, it is still in beautiful condition both inside and out.
I know that I will have to replace it some time. Actually, if I were to get a new car, should I trade this one and keep the BeaterFit? Or dump the BeaterFit and keep this one? There is a teeny corner of my brain that says a high-mile Honda is a better proposition than a high-mile Kia. But then again, the Kia has caused less trouble over the first 100k miles than the Honda did, and the running gear (and most everything else) looks and operates just like it did when new. I really don’t know. But that doesn’t matter because I am not getting rid of anything for the time being. I know that there will eventually come a time when I am ready to dump this Sedona and walk away. But that time has not yet arrived.
This installment brings this series up to date as far as what currently populates the JPC garage, but this is not the end of this COAL series. There are still four more vehicles which have come (and gone) from my lifetime and which are due their fifteen minutes of fame. So let’s do this again next week.
Surprised to hear of the Kia surpassing the Fit in reliability, given the recent automotive press attention given to the Hyundai/Kia ignition switch design flaw, and Scotty Kilmer videos saying stay away from Kia. I’ve also heard about Kia engine problems from used car dealers and a few auto techs on a garage related site.
But then you managed to keep a 1999 Daimler product running for well over 20 years, so you seem to have good luck with cars.
I cannot speak to their newer designs, but those engines from this car’s era were pretty good. Mine certainly has been. I have heard about some issues with newer designs, but then I have also heard that Hyundai/Kia has stood behind them through the generous warranty.
I have not looked deeply into the ignition “defect”, but understand that it is nothing more than continuing an old system in much the way GM did for a long time (when they were the easiest cars to steal with a screwdriver after smacking the steering column cover with a big hammer.
The bad part, to me at least isn’t the design flaw itself. Like you noted, other manufacturers have had similar problems. It’s Kia response which is, just go buy a steering wheel lock bar, like it’s 1985 or something.
In Canada, all Hyundais and Kias have had an electronic immobilizer and chip key since MY2008…because it’s required equipment there. The factory had the parts available. They deliberately went out of their way to omit them from US vehicles.
There’s no excuse for the company’s behaviour.
Sure there is. It’s money. A copy of a key for my van is $3 instead of $30 and doesn’t require a visit to the dealership. Nobody’s trying to steal my van.
Why spend $3 on a key when you can just use and old usb cable?
I have a very similar van that’s lived a very different life, but with a similar result. I bought a 2011 Sedona in 2020, a then 9-year-old with 123,000 miles. It has a dulled hood, some little dings, and rock chips on the outside and a lone cigarette burn on the inside. It now has 136,000 miles and looks no worse than it did then. It was a bargain at $4,000. Despite its unknown history, it’s been trouble free as far as starting and running, and ‘scoots’ as you said. It impressed me from the beginning in both its willingness to leave a hot patch of rubber behind as well as remarkable kickdown acceleration that is accompanied by a sound that doesn’t say “minivan.” As pictured above, it looks dusty under the hood, but exhibits no leakage of fluids. It does use a little oil, as I’ve found most newer stuff does. Its only “trouble” was a Christmas tree of warning lights after a car wash, which was fixed for free by the Kia dealer by plugging an ABS sensor back in. Since purchase, it’s been my utility vehicle, and I’ve jokingly pointed to its six-lug wheels as indications of it being a Sedona HD.
Despite the shabby evidence of its familial past life and currently mismatched tires, it’s proven to be a very pleasant freeway travel car. It’s smooth and quiet, the stereo sounds pretty good for what it is, and it tracks straight. The lack of power doors isn’t missed here. It’s hauled big and little dogs to the vet, and even carried laundry equipment. I figure it’ll continue to be my utility vehicle until the next ten years or so likely bring it to about 185,000 and no longer trustworthy enough before it gets sent on its way, probably outstaying a couple of daily drivers in the process.
I no longer think of a Kia or Hyundai as any kind of low-tier vehicle. I think of them as the smart choice. Minivans in general are similar: show me another 9-year-old vehicle available for $4,000 that still has useful life left.
I have come to the conclusion that among older minivans (2012 and before), the only two that almost completely avoid the risk of transmission trouble is the Toyota and the Kia. I have also avoided the oil use issue as mine doesn’t use any at all. These have aged really well in general, and most anyone who has actually owned or been around one sounds like you and me – these are really good cars!
I also find the six-lug wheels fascinating. And also a problem because the choice of aftermarket wheels is really thin. I had always planned to look for a set of alloy wheels from the junkyard, but have never taken the time to do it.
I’d looked into that when I got mine (removed the plastic hubcaps), only to have a dealership inform me that to go to the alloys, I’d also have to change tires, as I’d be replacing my 16″ wheels with 17″. The wheels were a big selling point for me when I bought the van, as doing re-enactment means doing mile off-roading every trip. bigger (within limits) is better.
If you’re going to be driving off-road quite a bit, switching to 17″ wheels is a mistake. The 17″ tires are 60 series (235/60R17); the 16″ ones are 225/70R16, meaning they both have essentially the same overall “height” or diameter, but the 17″ ones have a shorter/narrower and stiffer sidewall. That’s the opposite of what you want for off-road use, where you want as much sidewall as possible to deflect when you hit a rock or chuck hole or such.The 17″ tires will not get you any additional ground clearance.
You’d be better off seeing if some 15″ wheels and taller tires would fit!
Or did I misread your comment “bigger (within limits) is better.”?
I did not want to go to 17’s due to the sidewalls.
On my 2012, there were two different alloy versions – 16 inch for the LX (like mine) and 17 for the high trim EX version. I found the optional 16 inch alloys (photo below) not that attractive, and hard to distinguish from my plastic wheelcover. The 17s (like on the brochure shot) were attractive, but I remember thinking the same thing about the harder ride. When I replaced tires, I went with a light truck tire with a fatter sidewall that made handling squishier, but that improved ride quality a lot.
I have come to the conclusion that among older minivans (2012 and before), the only two that almost completely avoid the risk of transmission trouble is the Toyota and the Kia.
I would agree with your assessment, but we did have a Sienna, I think around a 2012 that did blow up its transmission. Mind you it was a fleet use van that was driven in severe use type conditions. I do recall it spent sometime at the dealership as it took sometime to get the replacement transmission, as it wasn’t a common occurrence. I never did find out what the case of the failure was and I believe that van has been since been sold off.
I’m sure they can all blow a transmission. Between 4,500 lbs and 275 hp is a hard task to ask. It ought to have HD coolers similar to what a half ton pickup has anyway.
I worry a little about the transmission and the timing chain tensioners. Everything else seems golden. My tensioners are noisy sometimes for a few seconds if the car goes over a week undriven. Part of why I diligently keep it full of Mobil 1. Every car that has those plastic slider timing chain tensioners that are hydraulic can have trouble with them, I’m hoping to avoid that.
A happy COAL story is always a welcome Sunday morning read.
I admit to also having a non-logical mindset that H/K vehicles are third level choices where Honda and Toyota are first level, all the other Japanese choices are second level, and the [formerly] big USA options and H/K are third level.
Oh yes, Europeans choices are level four. Attractive and desirable when new, but level four all the same once the warranty expires.
What embarrasses me is that I have never driven or ridden is any H/K vehicle and never set foot in one of their dealers. And the presence of many Tellurides in tony Basking Ridge NJ tells me I may be ill-informed, out of date, or worse, dead wrong.
“… I am tired of your cheap old cars that cost us too much money. I want a new car…”
I’m with Marianne.
I like to look at and read about old cars (hence CC), but at my age dealing with the trials and bills of buying someone else’s used car is to me a waste of what is now preciously diminishing time.
Ironically, my bought new ’99 Miata is 24 years old and has needed repairs typical of cars that age to keep it running well and feeling new-ish.
The bought new ’13 Tacoma still feels new to me but it will be ten years old in June. So, I now have two old, albeit low mileage vehicles anyway.
But as you know, your older cars are not like “USED” cars on a dealer’s lot. We know these vehicles, know their history, know their repairs, know their quirks, and know their value.
And… dare I say it – we are fond of them in an anthropomorphic way. Well, at least I am.
I remain skeptical of H/Ks and sadly don’t have the time nor a reason to try them out, even through their new grill logos are neat.
But, on second thought, I must admit their EVs are kind of interesting.
I think you would be amazed at modern H-K cars. Maybe people in our general age range think of them the way our parents thought about Japanese cars in the 60s. I would probably categorize these in a different way (for long term ownership), with Category 1 being Honda and Toyota, Category 2 being lesser Japanese brands and the Koreans, Category 3 being US and European. And lately, I have been a little skeptical of modern Honda. Anyway, you ought to waste a Saturday morning and go drive one at a dealer, as I think it might change your impressions.
As for that new logo, I read recently that it has been a popular online search to ask “what is the new KN car?” 🙂
re. the “KN car”, I heard a whole podcast recently with a fellow who has a PhD in “sociology and business graphics” (dang, another academic train I’ve missed…. 😉 ) and specializes in creating studies on the impact of logos. His point was essentially that Kia did a good thing by creating a somewhat confusing logo as it generates customer curiosity. OK, any press is good press. I guess you can write a dissertation on that. Somewhere.
But where he really lost me was when he began to defend the use of “letter A’s without cross bars”, saying that “Other companies have done it.” Yeah, but if one just randomly starts cutting off parts of letters, they aren’t exactly THOSE letters any longer, right? That’s like saying that the number 10 is just 100 with the last zero invisible.
(/old man yelling at clouds )
Oh. And I thought the goal of marketing was to build brand recognition? Sorry, but I’m not buying that logic. “Customer curiosity” might work in some cases, but most people aren’t that interested enough in an everyday product like a gray minivan (or most of Kia’s products) to generate that level of curiosity that might lead to sales. I think the KN logo is a dud.
It reminds me of the Nine Inch Nails logo.
Dang, I came here to say the same thing!
dead wrong
Correct.
Here is my non-logical ranking of cars based on reliability/quality.
1. Toyota
2. Honda, Mazda
3. Ford, Hyundai, Subaru, GM, Nissan
4. European. (includes the remains of Chrysler)
Don, I kind of like that list.
My wife was of the “new car or no car” mindset before we were married. Understandable given the quality and longevity of cars in the 70s and 80s. Since then, she has come over to my point of view that 2 to 3 year old used cars are a better bet with a cheaper price. With those cars, you get 1 or 2 years of factory warranty as breathing space to decide if the car is a keeper or a dumper. Haven’t had to dump one yet. Neither have any of the cars been used to finance mechanic’s boat dreams.
Agree with the consensus that H/K cars are marketed towards the bankrupt/repo/no credit crowd. Have driven them as rentals and they were as good as any other rental car. Every time I come to the conclusion that maybe I’m missing out on a good product and should consider looking at one, media reports seem to surface about recalls or engine sludge problems.
I don’t doubt that H-K have had some bad ones out there, but I also am pretty sure that their record isn’t any worse than GM or Ford on that score, but the difference is that H-K will back them for 10 yrs and 100k miles. That warranty may not transfer on an ordinary used one, but I believe it will apply on a CPO car.
On the new vs. used, I have been moving the opposite direction as you. I used to like the idea of the first owner taking the depreciation hit, but modern cars have become so much more complex (and have been forced into so much new technology) that the cost of a bad choice has been going up a lot. And the current market where used are close to the price of new have destroyed the case for a late model used car for me.
What a long strange trip it’s been (and seemingly continues to be 🙂 )
You make so many connections to my own experiences here. I think I’ve vaguely referenced the faith that some in my car-buying/owning universe have placed in “new” cars with warranties. That’s a powerful thing when it exists, and there’s nothing like unexpected failures in the daily driving fleet to trigger the “we’re going to get a car that doesn’t unexpectedly cost us money!” request. So I get that. BUT, as your experience with the Kia points out, the number of failures that end up getting covered in 10 years really isn’t all that great. So really, these extended warranties – and also “bumper to bumper maintenance plans” – are mostly marketing ploys. Successful marketing ploys. And, in the case of Kia I think they were necessary to get consumers past your (and mine, I’ll admit) preconceived expectations of Kia ownership. Turns out that the cars really were ok, and that warranty made consumers stomach the (perceived) risk. Smart.
I feel also that you and I are in the same place with regard to feeling that the current daily driver vehicles may represent “peak” automobile so far as what we want to drive and deal with…even if we probably know that’s not going to end up being the case indefinitely. I personally am so entirely comfortable with the technology in my 12 – 15 year old vehicles that I just can’t imagine wanting to get rid of them for something that will take a huge bite out of my pocket and provide a less satisfying driving experience (e.g., no manual transmissions, the need for large dashboard screens, etc.). Except of course, coming around full-circle, these 15 year old cars that I am comfortable with are increasingly becoming “not new” (ha!) cars and therefore raising the “I want a car that has a warranty so that failures will be free” specter.
I am glad that there are four more vehicles to be covered. Whew!
I remember when we got the Kia thinking that maybe we were going to transition into a rhythm of getting a new car every 5 years, and keep them for 10. We blew past the 2017 and 2022 dates when such a plan would have replaced both of our cars, so we have sort of slid into the two old cars thing. I remember starting to look during the little window that was post-pandemic but pre-chip shortage, but never really had a reason to get serious.
The other factor is that I have reached the age where everyone I know is talking about retirement – some have done it, some are holding off. But I know that if I am going to get another new car, I should do it while I am still working.
For most modern vehicles 100k is just getting broken in, if it has been maintained and not
almost willfully abused. I bet your Sedona is good for another 100!
Oh, how I loved this COAL, primarily because it’s one of the rare ones where you’ve got the exact same vehicle that I have. Well, real close. Mine’s a 2008 (doesn’t have the nice ‘tiger nose’ grille), only has a five speed automatic transmission, and it’s going to turn over 150,000 miles sometime in March, based on it’s current use: Load hauling and long re-enactment trips only (which means the Westminster, MD bicycle swap meet in February and Searle’s Raid in St. Augustine, FL in March).
In fact, the van gets used seldom enough that I keep a battery tender on it 24/7/365 when it’s parked. Having had the battery die on me twice during the COVID years from being parked convinced me of that strategy.
Reliability? Absolutely wonderful, just like every Kia we’ve owned. It was bought as a load hauler and work vehicle with the second row of seats being removed the day it came home, and they’ll probably only go back in they day it goes to it’s next owner. Which is probably going to be another 50,000 miles, given the van has a resale value of about $1200.00 at present, so it’s going to be keep it until it gets too expensive to repair. And hopefully the prices of a used Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid get a bit saner in the future (we’re working on a plan where all future vehicles must be EV or PHEV). We just has a part in the shifter replaced late last year, that’s been the only major repair in the past three years.
Yes, we love Kia’s in this house. Which is why we’re looking at a Niro EV or EV6 to replace Maggie’s car this summer. Hopefully.
I had not seen you mention yours in awhile and wondered if you still had it. Now I know. Sedona ownership is a small club, but a happy one.
I had said for a long time that Kia had earned the right to be the first showroom I visit when I get back into the market, but they have really gotten into the turbo 4s and away from the V6 in all but their most expensive models, so I am less sure. I am sorry that you can no longer get a V6 Sorento.
I had seriously considered a third generation Sedona until I found out you couldn’t remove the second row seating without tools and a YouTube video, which completely killed the car for me. At this point, given my life with the Bolt, EV and PHEV is almost mandatory for me, the only exception being if I lose the Sedona (wreck, major malfunction) this year, I’ll punt and go for a Grand Caravan or C/V to tide me over until I can afford a Pacifica Hybrid. I’ve ridden in their generation Sedonas, and they’re more impressive than the seconds.
I, too have both a Bolt EV and a Sedona backup. Strange coincidence.
An acquaintance of my wife has a Kia Sedona like yours but I think it’s a 2013. She also has five boys. That van still looks great inside and out and has been flawless. So, in other words, assuming you and Marianne are gentler on a vehicle than the combined efforts of five boys, I’d say the timeframe for keeping yours in good nick is almost indefinite. You’ll be writing an update about it ten years from now. 🙂
Another upshot is you don’t put a tremendous number of miles on a vehicle per year. That will help even more with the longevity of your Sedona.
I doubt that your friend’s van is a 2013. Fun fact, Kia did not actually make these in 2013. I remember thinking “Oh great, we pick a new one then they discontinue them”. Then they reintroduced the exact same vehicle for 2014, and then the redesigned version for 2015. Weird.
That van is becoming the kind of old-person car I always sought out as a used car. It has stayed in the garage most of the time so the paint is still really shiny and the headlights look like brand new. I vacuumed and wiped down the interior this past fall and it still looks like it does in these pictures from a few years ago. It is so nice that I am purposely driving the Honda most of the time to preserve the Kia. Who knows, it may take the rest of my life to hit 200k with this one.
The satisfaction which comes with choosing a car which addresses everyone in the family’s needs, instead of of only ones own, is a valuable lesson. I wonder how things would have turned out if you and Marianne had selected the Sorento, if it would still be in the family?
Your first point is a great one. It reminds me that my philosophy has always been different from several COALers here. Some chose cars specifically as His or Hers, and the my car vs. your car line is hard and fast. I have viewed ours as a jointly owned fleet where one should complement the other in some way and where each of us can choose the right car for a particular day or use. It helps that Marianne and I are of similar height when sitting in the driver’s seat that neither of us needs to adjust the seat or mirrors when moving between cars.
On the Sorento, that’s a good question. Really, I didn’t expect to keep this one so long, and expected to be rid of it before we hit the end of the warranty. But here we are. The Sorento of that era has proved to be a decent car too, and maybe we would also have kept that one. Who knows.
I’ve never been married, but I assume wives are known as “She Who Must Be Obeyed” for a reason.
I’ve never been a believer in that, but I do firmly believe in the concept of “happy wife, happy life”.
If you are going to try to reduce marriage to that simplistic maxim from a hen-pecked tv character, then probably you’d be better off staying unmarried.
I understand the expression to be tongue in cheek and was citing it in that spirit.
I’m reading this on the day when our 2018 Sedona turns 60,000 miles, and I’m happy to report we’re as satisfied with ours as you are with yours. Similar to when you bought yours, the Sedona didn’t seem to be in great demand, so we got quite a bargain, and it’s proven to be the most reliable car we’ve ever owned. I’m dreading having to replace it some day.
A few random comments:
Minivans: Our first minivan, which we still have, was a 2010 Odyssey. As a family of 4 who travel a lot, this ended up being the perfect vehicle. But the Odyssey wasn’t quite as trouble-free as I’d expected with a Honda, and by 2018, when we were looking for a new minivan, we were open to other minivans besides the new Odyssey. Like you, I was skeptical of Kia at first, but on a drivability standpoint I liked it more than the Toyota Sienna (our runner-up). Plus the warranty was impressive. We took a chance on the Kia and I’m glad we did.
Ordering a Base Car: Your story about getting your Sedona dealer-traded from near Wisconsin is similar to our story. We wanted a Sedona LX (one step up from the base L) but with no other options. Almost every LX came with the electronics package, which we didn’t want. I finally found one in Richmond, about 100 mi. away, and negotiated a good price with the dealer. But at the last minute I asked what “accessories” that van had – expecting they typical pinstriping, mudflaps, etc. The sales manager said it had those, plus a DVD player. That was a deal-killer… something I definitely didn’t want. After further negotiation (similar to yours), he found another base LX, another 100+ mi. past Richmond. We bought that one.
Power Doors: When we bought our 2010 Odyssey, I thought power doors were ridiculous. We vowed to use our van doors manually – you know, because we have arms. That vow lasted for about 3 days; we gave in to temptation and started using the power doors. So much for principles. Interestingly, our Odyssey has never had door problems. But for our Sedona, the only warranty repair we’ve had was to… (you guessed it!) replace the power door motors. I hope the new motors last longer.
My wife and I both like the Sedona, and agree that it was a great choice for us – glad to read the full story behind yours as well.
It is kind of amazing how few base-level cars there are out there. Then again, they are not as profitable and there are probably not many like you and me who are happy with a new base car instead of a higher trim late model used one.
The other funny side-effect of a van without power doors is how many rear passengers will open the door, get out, then just start walking away. “Hey, close the door” has been said quite a lot from the driver’s seat of my van. Power doors on minivans have become almost universal, and everyone expects the door to automatically close behind them.
I should mention that in its 5 years with us, our Sedona has visited 38 states.
Below are some selected pictures from its travels – clockwise from top-left: Monument Rocks, Kansas; North Dakota Badlands; me with the Sedona entering Utah; and parked at the beach near Pensacola, Florida.
My first experience with one of these was in early 2007 during a business trip, our host picked us up in a rented one and we rode around in it for a couple of hundred miles visiting various factories. That was also my first ride in any Kia whatsoever. I remember thinking the older cars and especially the older (first) Sedona were somewhat dumpy looking and questionable value choices, based entirely on the often wrong or biased “conventional wisdom”, but one look inside and then riding around in (this) Sedona had me thinking “KIA has joined the chat”. Absolutely first-rate, which means up there with the Sienna and Odyssey of the day. Good styling, excellent materials, the feel of the knobs, buttons, handles were silky smooth just like the Japanese and still a big step ahead of the US brands (in 2007). The 3.5liter seemed quite punchy as well, and when we ended up with a used Sienna and a used Odyssey a few years later I realized that these vans were all powerful, fast, smooth, and excellent vehicles that, as you said, were surprisingly fun to drive once you get into the rhythm. Were we to be looking for another van nowadays, KIA would certainly be on the list.
A manufacturer has to have confidence in their product to offer (and stand behind and keep offering) a 10/yr100k mile warranty. I’ll note that VW increased theirs to 10/100k a few years ago for their entire line-up but within two years revised that back down to 6/72k miles, Chrysler did the 5yr/100k powertrain for a few years around 2015 but backed down again to 5yr/60k, that doesn’t reflect so well. If your cars are reliable or you’ve at least earned the perception of such anyway you either don’t need to offer a significant warranty (Toyota/Honda etc) or you can offer a very generous one. If your product quality isn’t there though and you offer the warranty you’ll lose your a$$.
One minor point re power doors, at least on a Honda of similar age – they have an easily accessible on-off switch on the dashboard, i.e. you choose if you want to have them enabled or not. Not that you necessarily want to pay for the option if you don’t want or need it, but if it has it you can choose to use it or not and if they fail you can disengage the system, they then operate exactly like yours do, it’s not like if they stop working the door won’t open or close. I’ve replaced the item that goes bad in an Odyssey, it’s not a terrible repair, pull back a door panel, unscrew four or so screws from a sort of cassette thing filled with gears and replace with a fairly inexpensive new part, while you’re sitting in the second row, it’s FAR easier than a window regulator. I believe what makes them go bad is actually people that aren’t used to them and try to repeatedly force the door open manually against the power mechanism, stripping something inside. Let it do the work as designed and they seem to last. I’ve had enough fingers smashed in our old VW van to not really want to manually move a 100lb+ steel weight on rollers at high speed to slam/engage and shut anymore when little hands are around.
Having had recent experience(s) with CV boots and axles I’ve come to the conclusion that the ones with better quality components end up lasting longer (sometimes lifetime) but then when they go bad the pieces have fused/rusted together so that it ends up being easier/quicker/cheaper to replace the steering knuckle too, just because they won’t come apart. Conversely crappier ones might require more frequent repair yet the pieces haven’t been installed so long that they still come apart or at least the first time have been reassembled with anti-seize materials etc. looking ahead to the next time…
I can confirm your impression of the car’s switchgear, all of which still works the way it did when new. You remind me that I have not had a window regulator fail in this van, either – another failure that has become distressingly common in vehicles since the 90s.
I have discovered that most of the components that make for the power operated doors are already installed, and I would probably only have to buy a few parts to finish off the job. I wonder if that would be easier than fixing more door handles? 🙂
I had two of these as rentals before we bought ours. The first one was in California in maybe 2007 or 8. I hated it. It had quite a few miles on it, was an obnoxious color of gold and had a flopping weatherstrip on one of the doors. The interior seemed plain and I remember thinking that this was a minivan GM would build if it could manage getting the mechanical part right. It was quick, however. The second one was maybe 2010 and when I started driving it, I wondered what I had hated about the first one. This one was a nicer color combo, had the updated grille, and didn’t have any defects. I remember thinking that it was nice, and then promptly forgot about them until my accidental encounter after the Sedona drive. I remember the guy at the rental lot telling me that it was the fastest vehicle of anything in their rental fleet, including the Chargers.
That picture with all those bags of mulch is pure gold! This segment (size) of MPV’s is pretty much history here by now. It’s either SUV’s in the pricy class or affordable sub-compact and compact crossovers. Think Ford Puma and the like.
Kias and Hyundais have come a long way since their days as budget-mobiles. I have not owned either, but I wouldn’t rule out either if I was in the market.
Glad you got a lot of usage out of yours. 100k miles is nothing. I’ve got a Honda that’s nearing double that, which is a record for me, but hardly atypical for many owners. If you enjoy driving it, keep it til the wheels fall off 🙂
Minivans (and vans of all sizes) are the obvious ideal personal automobile. How can you beat a box on wheels, for maximum space efficiency, flexibility, seating position as well as sacrificing almost nothing in exchange? If humans were actually rational, we’d all be driving vans, of one size or another.
I “inherited” our ’92 Grand Caravan after we bought the 2000 Subaru Forester, which Stephanie quickly adopted as “her car”, although we did use it for trips and such. Having sold the old Cherokee, the GC became “my car” and it was very ideal for just running errands, hauling materials and appliances, and as a camper with the second and third row seats taken out.
I loved the seating position and the lack of a console, giving gobs of headroom and leg room. It was those qualities, as well as a few others, that so endeared me to the xB, which is actually more of a micro-van than anything else.
Having owned two minivans and four pickup trucks over the last 40 years, and run a reenactment sutlering business out of all of them, I firmly believe that the van leaves a pickup truck for dead in all but three functions: Hauling dirty loads (loose dirt, etc.), hauling motorcycles, and pulling a trailer.
We are singing from the same songbook. I think the only really significant tradeoff (other than image and perceptions) is in servicing. Pickups have things under a full hood and a front that gives better accessibility to many areas. Vans and minivans do a really incredible job of mashing the maximum number of mechanical/electrical components into the smallest possible space, which can be a bear when it comes time to fix something.
Good read! It sounds like the Sedona has served your quite well. These vans have always been very thin on the ground in my area, literally next to non-existant. For whatever reason the bargain van shoppers have gone with the Caravans, but based on your experience and others, it sounds like the Kia is a much better buy. I continually see you and other commenters like Eric mention how great the Kia has been, and that carries a lot of weight with me. My own experience with the last generation of the Caravan has not been overly impressive and I can’t say I know anyone whose owned a trouble free unit. The only logical explanation for the lack of popularity locally is that old habits and bias’ die hard and many aren’t willing to try the Korean brands (at least beyond the economy car/SUV segment).
Here in the great white north, we also experienced the Pony, which many, myself included, think of when we speak of Korean cars. Obviously the Pony is not a relevant reference source anymore – I know that – but it still pops up in my mind.Despite all the empirical evidence that suggests these H/K are good buys, I have had a hard time giving them serious consideration. I even recently rented late model Sonata that was a good car with very impressive fuel mileage and driver room, albeit I didn’t care for the driving dynamics. Much of my lack of consideration for H/K cars is there has been no compelling vehicle that has pulled us away from our Toyota ownership. Other brands have pulled us away, such as Subaru, but inevitably, we end up regretting and going back to Toyota. This is not because they are the best cars ever, rather, they have proven to be good overall with little drama during long term ownership. Quite honestly that’s all I want from a modern DD – old cars are the only ones I am passionate about anymore.
On the base model conversation, count me in with your and Eric. The last two new cars were purchased were base models. This was because there are two features we did not want – the power rear tailgate and the sunroof (due to lack of headroom). Since there is no more a la carte ordering, we are limited to base model option packages. Fortunately, as you state, base models in modern terms does not equate stripper by any means. Our last two cars were also ordered as they both had limited stock, so they were delivered with next to no mileage.
After I bought our Sedona, I watched Kia and Hyundai gain ground with newer, more modern (and appealing) products. Our van was a late version of the period before the product renaissance that brought vehicles like the Sorento and the Soul. But then their growth seemed to stall, and I think lingering perceptions like many here have acknowledged have played a role. I think the current Telluride may be doing more to break some of those old attitudes than anything else.
My biggest problem with newer versions is that the powertrains I have liked have become rare in all but their most expensive vehicles.
Sounds like a decent satisfying van, but 95K? that’s just broken in! Our 2005 beater Xterra has 202K on it, uses NO oil between 3k changes, and can still flat-out boogie, that in a 4wd 4500lb suv with the aerodynamics of a barn door. The Nissan dohc VQ V6 with VVT etc , and that particular Aisan trans is a super combo, an engine on Wards “10 Best” list longer than any ever, and I can see why!
They did initially have a timing chain with a weak tensioner, ours required replacement at 115k, but that problem was fixed in ’09, and our newer 2nd X, a ’11 model, has been bulletproof, and will get 20-21 on the Hwy. Love them, I’d buy another.
Oh and Scotty K loves Xterras, he did a piece on an old used one a year or 2 ago, though he’s not generally a fan of Rogues with their crappy Jatco transmissions.
Well that was highly informative, I’d always wondered how such a Chrysler man wound up in a Kia. Makes perfect sense.
We rented a Sedona like yours for a week of family vacation in Florida. I recall it being nicer than our base model Caravan with much more go available. But what surprised an delighted us was the tone of the horn. It went MEEP like the Road Runner, both the cartoon and Mopar versions. We even made a little video clip of 6 of us standing around the Kia saying “The Kia Sedona…it goes MEEP!” MEEP!
I had forgotten about the horn, and had never made the Road Runner association, but now I can see it. (Or hear it).
Meep!
Amen, hallelujah, oyez, preach it! This is on my long (and growing) list of “Stop that! I didn’t ask you! Just stay out of it and let me do it if, as, and when I want!” items on new(er) cars.