A history of the A8
Audi has had an interesting journey in becoming the credible luxury brand that it is today. Its first foray into the vaunted large-format flagship sedan was a car simply called the “Audi V8,” which debuted in 1988 for MY1989. That car was also the first model to combine Audi’s Quattro AWD system with an automatic transmission. And while the V8 was a decent effort, many found it not quite posh enough to hang with the 7 Series and especially the S-Class.
In 1993, Audi debuted the next iteration of its large car—well, more of a preview, really. That concept was the ASF, which stood for Audi Space Frame. It comprised an inner cage made up of extruded and die-cast aluminum components, shod in unstressed aluminum body panels. Audi claimed a weight savings of 110 kg (242 lbs). To celebrate the car’s aluminum construction, Audi proudly displayed the unpainted, hand-polished body at the 1993 Frankfurt Motor Show. It looked every bit like the production version that was forthcoming. In keeping with Audi’s new nomenclature, that car was the 1994 A8, and like the concept, it was aluminum.
The 1993 ASF Concept.
The “D2” A8, as it was called, lasted from 1994-2002, and came in both short- and long-wheelbase body styles. It spawned a high-performance S8 variant in 1996 and a cheaper FWD variant in 1997. Between all the versions, there were four gasoline engines (2.8-liter V6, 3.7-liter V8, 4.2-liter V8, 6.0-liter W12) and two diesel engines (2.5-liter V6 TDI, 3.3-liter V8 TDI), each with multiple outputs. Horsepower across all the options ranged from 172 to 414.
The “D3” A8 began development in the late nineties and ultimately arrived in 2002 as a 2003 model. It was even bigger than the prior one, and boasted a number of high-tech accouterments, including Audi’s new MMI infotainment system. The cabin, meanwhile, was as modern as anything else on the market, and perhaps more so. It’s this A8 that brought the nameplate properly into the echelon of flagship world-class sedans, between the W12 version seen in Transporter 2 and the famous S8, with its 5.2-liter V10 engine. That V10, it should be noted, was used in cars like Audi’s own R8 and the related second-generation Lamborghini Gallardo and subsequent Lamborghini Huracán. The D3 lasted through 2010.
A 2004 “D3” A8, EU-spec.
And that brings us to the “D4” A8. It arrived in 2010 as a 2011 model and was an evolutionary redesign over the D3; I imagine non-Audi enthusiasts could mistake one from the other from some angles. Originally, for the US market, D3 A8 came with either the carryover 4.2-liter V8 (372 hp, 328 lb-ft) or an enlarged 6.3-liter W12 (500 hp, 461 lb-ft). Either one got you a new 8-speed automatic provided by ZF and standard Quattro AWD.
In 2013, Audi replaced the 4.2-liter with an all-new 4.0-liter twin-turbo V8 badged “4.0T”. Like so many engines nowadays, this was a “hot-vee” layout, meaning the turbos sat right in the valley of the engine, for shorter response times. In base form, this engine pumped out a staggering 420 hp and 406 lb-ft along with a zero-to-sixty time of under four seconds. The reintroduced S8 featured a hopped-up version of the 4.0T that put out 520 hp and 418 lb-ft. That same year, Audi also added a “3.0T” variant comprising, confusingly, a 3.0-liter supercharged V6 good for 333 hp and 325 lb-ft. In 2014, Audi introduced a “TDI” model with a 3.0-liter turbodiesel V6 also used by Porsche and Volkswagen. The TDI met an untimely demise after 2015, with Volkswagen Group’s famous “Dieselgate” scandal, but the other variants lasted beyond the D4’s 2015 facelift and through its discontinuation after 2018. With all models, you got Quattro AWD and four-corner air suspension.
A 4.0T long-block. Notice the turbos sitting right on top of the valley.
A Word on Audi’s Drivetrain Layout
Though Audi employs longitude-mounted engines, it does so in a rather odd way. Since at least the three-cylinder Auto Union cars of yore—and perhaps further back—Audi has placed the engine in the nose of the car, ahead of the front axles. Sitting behind the engine is the transmission, just as in a usual longitude arrangement…only it’s really a transaxle. Half-shafts come out of each side of the transmission, toward the front, and connect directly to the front wheels. This was why Audis were historically FWD. When Audi decided to introduce its famous Quattro system in the early 90s, it did so by directing output to the back of the transmission and to a locking central differential. That had output shafts that went both rearward (to the rear differential) and forward (to the front differential, contained within the bell housing).
In 1987, Audi replaced the original center differential with a Torsen-type differential. Ordinarily, this system was set up for a 50:50 front: rear split, but could apply as much as 80% of torque to a single axle as needed to improve grip. Still, even with this arrangement, the Torsen differential acts mostly like a limited-slip differential, which is to say that if one axle has no grip, the system won’t be able to supply a substantial amount of torque to the other axle. To address this, Audi first added a manually locking rear differential and then later electronic differential lock that could brake individual wheels to limit wheel spin.
The Audi “Ur-Quattro” transmission.
The overwhelming majority of Audi products have used this basic drivetrain layout, and either FWD or (more commonly) Quattro AWD. Likewise, other products have utilized the “Audi Layout” within the VW Group stable, up to and including the prior generation of Bentley Continental GT/C and Flying Spur. The latest incarnation of the Audi Layout is called MLB and is used on a number of VW Group products, like the A4-A8, Q5, Q7, Macan, Phideon, Touareg, Cayenne, Urus and Bentayga. Some of the newest MLB Ultra products can even disconnect the rear axle and go full FWD in unstressed, straight-ahead driving for fuel savings.
Audi MLB
What’s more, I suspect that this layout is part of the reason for VW Group’s “W” architecture, which is only just now being retired. The W engines are enabled by VW’s narrow-angle-V “VR” engine architecture, in which the two engine banks are between 10.5 and 15 degrees apart (as opposed to the usual 60 degrees or more). This allows both banks to share a head, but also means that they fit into spaces normally reserved for an inline four-cylinder engine. The 1997 Jetta GLX VR6 that was my 2nd COAL here is one such example, as that car had a pretty tiny engine bay and would otherwise not have had a six-cylinder anything. The W engines are basically two of these “VR” engines mated together on a common crank, at between 72 and 90 degrees of separation. For the benefit of the Audi-style cars, a conventional V12 would be too long to fit at the front of the engine bay like that, but a W12 is theoretically no longer than a V6 and so fits quite nicely. As it was, until the advent of the BMW M760Li xDrive in 2017, the VW Group large cars (A8, Phaeton, Flying Spur) had been the only ways to get a 12-cylinder and AWD in a sedan.
A bare 6.3-liter W12 block.
The idea of an engine forward longitudinal front- or all-wheel-drive layout is not unique to Audi. Other automakers (notably Renault and the Renault-derived Chrysler LH cars for FWD, Subaru for AWD and the Ford Transit for both) do something similar, but it’s worth noting here.
My Story
Alright, so with all that out of the way, let’s turn the clock back to June 2022. I knew I wanted something to replace the 2011 LS 460L, but wasn’t sure what that something should be. I can’t remember what I was looking at. It might have been X351-generation Jaguar XJs, which were the 2011-2019 model years…but then I saw a particular A8 on Facebook Marketplace at a local dealership, and the price looked right.
The A8, at the dealership.
I was able to confirm several things just from the pictures. I’m a size-queen, so if there’s a LWB version of a sedan, I want it. There’s no sense—to my eyes—in getting a SWB version of one of these cars when a bigger one exists. (It makes me very sad that the S8 was SWB-only in the US until 2019, when we stopped getting any SWB variant of the A8 at all). But this A8 was badged “A8 L” and therefore LWB, and indeed it did have the longer doors. It had the potent 4.0T engine. And, as evidenced by the radar on either side of the bumper and the “distance” toggle in on the cruise control stalk, it had adaptive cruise. It also had a couple of other desirable features, like the Sport appearance package, which got you the diamond-quilted seats that looked that much more upscale than the standard ones.
What a car!
I saw it late at night on a Saturday and resolved to look at it that Monday and did. I drove the LS there and the salesperson was all too happy to take a copy of my license and then send me on my way for a test drive. Compared to the LS, the A8 was every bit as classy as that car, but much lighter on its feet. The LS’s 4.6-liter V8 was down about 40 horsepower and was tuned to accelerate gingerly and reluctantly, but when you buried the A8’s throttle, it had a moment of brief lag and then simply took off. Despite being so nose-heavy, the handling was much better. While MMI looked intimidating at first glance—I had never used it—it was actually super easy, and all of the most frequent controls and actions fell readily to hand. The adaptive cruise worked great, bringing the car to a complete stop on the highway and then resuming with a light jab of the throttle. The only dumb thing was the monostable gear selector. Designed by ZF, the gear selector is incidentally the same one that was in my 2015 Grand Cherokee. It’s notorious for having difficult-to-sense detents and causing drivers to accidentally select the wrong gear. Unfortunately, the famous actor Anton Yelchin was killed by his own Jeep because of this faulty design.
The D4 A8’s ZF gear selector, as also used by the WK2 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Not a great design.
As for the car itself, I didn’t see anything wrong with it. The brakes, bushings and suspension all looked fine, and there were no obvious signs of an accident. Nor did the history report reveal anything odd. So, I went back and worked a deal. The dealership took the LS on trade, and I was on my way.
That night, I showed the car off to one friend or another and noticed the driver’s panel switches for the rear windows were broken. It would take more than one button press to roll the window up or down. And it seemed to be happening on both sides. That’s when I noticed the sunshades in the doors. I’m used to cars having dedicated switches for the sunshades, but Audi did things a little differently. The first tap would roll the sunshade down, and the second tap would actually roll the window down. And then the reverse when pulling the window switch up. So, it wasn’t broken after all.
The A8’s rear cabin. Isn’t that sumptuous?
Over the next few days, I noticed that the forward/backup sensors weren’t working at all. The overhead graphic that would normally be interposed over the reversing camera image and display a meter of how close objects were to the front or rear of the car was missing. And the parking-sensor on/off button didn’t do anything. Speaking of the camera, it had a defect that my prior white 535i also had, and I don’t recall if I mentioned it there. Essentially, at night, the camera would focus on the bright white reflection of the license plate lights on the bumper and would overly darken everything else, making the reversing camera mostly useless.
My first real test of the A8 was a trip to Houston, in which it did…fine. The adaptive cruise worked well in traffic, the A/C and cooled seats kept up with the 108-degree weather, the seats were all-day comfortable and had better massagers than the ones in the much-newer X5, and it even achieved 25 MPG on the highway and a full 540 miles of range between fill-ups. It would have been the ultimate road cruiser if it had been equipped with lane-keeping assist, instead of lane-departure warning that just vibrated the steering wheel, but it had hydraulic steering, so that wasn’t a possibility. (Audi added electric steering with the 2015 facelift, and with it proper lane-keeping assist, but mine was a 2013).
A few days after I got home, the A8 decided to have its first issue. I went outside and saw the right rear corner on the ground. Sure enough, when I checked it, I got a “check suspension” error and the compressor did not have any effect on raising that air strut back up. Well, off to FCP Euro. Fortunately, they sold a rebuilt version of the OEM strut. It was $600 with a $220 core charge. The problem was that the tower bolts for the strut were buried under a giant strut brace and a rather rigid wiring harness that I couldn’t seem to move myself. I had it towed to the Audi dealership, who was kind enough to use the strut I’d bought and install it for $200. While it was there, I had them check the non-functional sonar sensors, which were down to a wire that had dropped from behind the bumper and melted in front of the exhaust. I also had them do an oil change. The air suspension has had no issues since.
The A8 looking very sorry for itself, with one collapsed air strut.
The A8 handled several more trips to Houston with aplomb. I found it a very comfortable conveyance, and the ability to get all the way there (430-ish miles) and then still drive around town before refueling was nice. The X5 gets noticeably worse fuel economy on long trips, due to the 800-lb battery that’s not much help at those speeds.
My second issue, and it was a bit of a doozy, was when I started to hear a whistling noise near the top of the windshield. I was annoyed but ignored it for a few days. And then I went through the automatic carwash and saw water leak down from the top of the roof, just behind the mirror, and then come cascading down right on top of the MMI controls. To the car’s credit, it didn’t appear to damage anything, but it sure was worrying at the time. I took it back to the dealer, where they sent me pictures and told me what happened. Apparently, someone had replaced the A8’s windshield at some point. They’d purchased the OEM one, but didn’t remove all of the old sealant, so the new windshield didn’t seal properly and eventually came loose. They said they could try and reseat it, but chances were that it would crack. If that happened, they could replace it with an aftermarket one for $600. But that could interfere with the cameras. The OEM one, which they guaranteed wouldn’t interfere with the cameras, was $2,500.
Naturally, the existing windshield cracked when they went to unseat it—because of course it did. I told them to slap the aftermarket one on and the whistling stopped. Unfortunately, the week after that, I got a big chip in the windshield, which I had to get filled.
The A8, getting its windshield filled in my driveway. A previous COAL, the 2000 528i, makes a cameo here.
And that brings us to the final issue, which is the transmission. The A8 did fine for several months, a year in fact. And then, the ZF 8-speed began sometimes hesitating on the 1-2 upshift when accelerating. On the 2-1 downshift, it would buck harshly into first. I perused the Audi forums and it was a common issue, which a lot of people solved by updating the TCM to the latest software version. I had the dealer do that and a flush, and it affected it not at all. It would only do it one in every six stops, but it was still annoying.
Me, in the A8. I believe I was at the gas station.
I still have the Audi, and have made the decision, as of this week, to have a second flush done. If that doesn’t solve it, it gets sold. At that point, it’s either the valve body or the transmission itself. Could I spend $3,000 and replace the transmission with a used unit? Sure. But I’m not going to. It seems to me like a good opportunity to dump it for something else. I’m sure I could still get at least $10K for it, which is not much less than I paid. I do really like the A8 and the way it drives and would keep it if not for that. I’m honestly not too upset, because I got to put 20,000 miles on it; as you’ve read here, I’ve done a lot worse in the past.
One last question: Why are VW Group steering locks so loud?
Beautiful car! Audi has always done a really good job with their interiors in general, and wood in particular. Just curious, how many miles in total on it now?
I believe it’s 135,000 or thereabouts.
A close friend had an A8L, and I can echo all the praise in this article. I thought it was overall the nicest car I’d ever been in. Sadly, I can also echo all the maladies, mostly electric bugs but also the air suspension. He sold it even before the warranty lapsed.
The big German cars are so very impressive, in so many ways. That said, too many things go wrong, too often, for me to take them seriously.
You and your friend are smart. I…am not.
Reading these COALs is like reading a Stephen King novel, one never knows when a benign and gentle creature will turn into a monster.
No wait, here’s a more appropriate metaphor: When an African plains predator attacks an eland herd and starts to devour one of them, the rest of the herd watches from a safe distance. That’s me, hiding behind my Toyota truck, watching Kyree Rollerson wrestling with various luxury European predators. And one Lexus.
Such scary and expensive horror stories, but we cannot look away.
😀
It takes a special kind of foolishness to keep on buying these cars.
Listen to the bell housing area of the transmission at idle if theres any tapping sound sell it fast, Audis are reknown for transmission issues and the cars are cheap to buy used here, but as you found out the parts are expensive, very expensive compared to Citroen parts I see ne reasons to downgrade my ride.
Beautiful car.
I struggle to see how a fluid flush will make a difference. Also, is this a forced “flush” or just a drain? I’ve heard quite a few horror stories about “flushes” creating issues of their own. I would never have one unless it was a factory required/approved procedure.
On my son’s 2002 Accord the transmission instructions were specific, do not flush. On a level basis (I assume a hoist but maybe ground), drain till it stops, refill, be happy.
I did that on a preventative basis, but then he totaled the car.
The rear differential on Debbie’s ’05 AWD Element was making itself known on sharp curves. Two or three drains, drives, and refills seem to have made it happy again (4 years ago and counting). Knock on wood.
I should have said a drain-and-refill, and–indeed–that’s what the dealership did to it.
Thanks for the technical rundown of the drivelines Kyree, interesting reading.
I feel like I’m watching a roulette wheel spin every time one if these hyper complex Euro machines engineered to last a lease period shows up in your COALs. You seem to be doing alright, but I still feel like the house will always win. 🙂
It’s a losing battle for sure.
I had a Chevy Cheyene with a leaking window. Had a glass guy come out and he just made it worse. A second guy put a mess of glue down and it worked. I’m sure an Audi driver wouldn’t except the messy job, but this Chevy guy was just glad to be dry. Eventually I replaced my truck with a little Audi A3 which I have to say, was the best car I ever had. A little expensive to maintain, but at least it was dry.
The A3 was really cool. Granted, it was fundamentally a Golf in a tuxedo, so you didn’t see as many of the Audi-specific issues.
It was really a GTI with a better dealer.
A fine car, but I’ll confess I think the D3 pictured was better-looking, and indeed, an all-time Bahaus-type best-looker.
As the rank amatuers we all are on a classic site, it’s impossible to fathom the up-front money, and the risk, that building a car might involve. Year upon year, we hear of the “all new, clean sheet” model whatevs. It’s never true, and a moment’s thought shows it couldn’t be. And because of the immense risk costs, it is always a cumulation – the only exception has to be Tesla, I guess – of what preceded.
It reaches a really eccentric point of proof in Audi. They began (for modern purposes) as the DKW that you mention, Kyree, with it’s early FWD and slightly-oddball hangin’-out-the-front engine arrangement. That way of doing things was inherited by Mercedes then VW, so that’s how that tooling looked. Times move on, but the (incredibly expensive) process of making a car in a certain way doesn’t, because it has to follow the basics of what’s already there.
There are plausible arguments like equal front driveshafts to make for the overhung-engine layout, but in truth, it’s just an inheritance of production.
Ultimately, it resulted in the strangeness of a six litre iron-block diesel twin turbo V12 being hung entirely beyond the front axle, which clever engineers made drive well, but would surely NEVER be the starting point for anyone sensible.
You summed it up exactly.
So this is the car you referred to from that other article on the luxury cars last week!
My nephew back in Wisconsin was an Audi tech for many years. Full disclosure, he does love his Audi’s and still has several after retiring from turning wrenches and going into real estate. However, his main “whip” now is a very high miles Chrysler T & C van in part because of kids and in a bigger way because he just got tired of the high costs fixes on the Audi’s. I recall having conversations with him many years ago where he would deride me for my average modes of transportation and how much better his German engineering was on his cars. But every once in a while he would let it slip that he was tiring of the costs and frustrations.
I love cars like this A8, BMW 7 series and MB E/S class, but with all their strengths, their weaknesses are just more than I’m willing to endure. Give me a big old Caddy thanks.
Believe it or not, it isn’t the car I was referring to. Tune in exactly two weeks from today to hear about that one.
I do get the appeal of an easy-to-fix, common and highly-useful car like a Town & Country.
Haha. Ok, two weeks. I’ll get the hot chocolate and popcorn ready!! The suspense!
I’m of course used to cars that have no sunshades at all…but it’s just this sort of complication that convinces me that I’d never want a car like this. Yeah, I’m sure that my own Teutonic marque is currently just as complicated (certainly seems so from some of your other COAL chapters), but that’s why I feel that the 15 year old one that I own represents the most recent version of complication that I’d tolerate.
Your report of the A8’s performance sounds right on target for what I’ve heard from others, and I’d surely appreciate that (although whether I’d need that is a whole other issue). And yet, your video of the water pouring in at the carwash, the 4-digit windshield price, and the sad transmission issues pretty much enforce the idea that these cars for most regular folks after the first year or two are well more trouble than they’re worth.
Which may be why someone driving near me not so long ago threw their key out the window. I found it and have been meaning to take it back to the Audi dealer to see if it could be re-united with its owner. Although I doubt that they’re still the owner. 😉
Oh, and fwiw, hydraulic steering here in the BMW community is generally considered a positive. And its loss (probably due to the reasons you cite) is bemoaned as one of the failures of more modern series. Different strokes…
Jeff: You bringing up the thing of a complicated sunshade made me think of this. I for one don’t even want those things in my car as they tend to be problem areas for sure. However, if putting one in a car, they really need to make it simple to put up and down. Volvo for some stupid reason decided to place the rear shade up/down in the center screen!!!! You have to go through not one but two screens to do it no less.
Sometimes more “simple” really isn’t simple at all nor the best option. Give me a good old fashion switch that I can push and see without playing on the stupid screens.
I would love to own something like this but I don’t think I could cope with the stress of waiting for the next massive expense. I guess if you’ve got the money you just lease them worry free for three years from new – that way you get all the benefits of the complex sophisticated engineering, without the spendy stressful downsides.
I just checked though – to lease new something comparable to this car, the deposit would be more than I have ever spent buying a car (a LOT more) and one month of lease would cost more than I spent buying the car I’m currently driving. I don’t think I’m the target market….
My only brush with an A8 was with one of the very early ones. I got a case in my office where some poor dumb uninsured driver had the horrible luck to round a blind curve (not entirely on his side of the road) and hit an Audi A8. The repair cost was simply astronomical, with probably a half-dozen supplements added as additional bits of new damage got uncovered in the repair. It was the only case file I ever got where there were photos of a mechanic holding the damaged parts and photographing them so as to satisfy the insurance adjuster. That experience was enough to make me run away from cars like these for the rest of my life.
I love the Stephen King analogy – every one of these COALs has this wonderful foreboding suspense to it. Halloween stories for car guys! 🙂
Back in 2010, I dropped my boss’s A6 off at the Audi dealer for a warranty repair and was offered an A8 as a loaner. What a ride! Massaging seats and extreme comfort were my reward. I believe it had the V10. It accelerated like a Saturn V, only buttery smooth.
100 mph was reached with an eerie silence as was the deceleration to 35 before the off ramp.
The more things change the more they stay the same?
I’m an old F… now, but I sort of, vaguely, remember when the Audi 100LS came out, ~1970. They got great reviews, I had friends recommending them to parents and grandparents. A nice classy German car for less than the price of a Cadillac. Except they broke. A lot. And often. The other upmarket German cars sold here do not have Toyota like reputations for reliability, but far better from what I hear than Audi. Not that Audi’s aren’t nice, when they run, but when they run is key.
I’m a German car fan, BMW specifically but German cars in general, so I want to like them and think well of Audis, but I don’t. Color me skeptical.
I think one either really gets into the gizmos and doodads or can’t stand them. Aside from the expense and highly questionable reliability, the sheer volume of screens, lights, and sounds would be too much for my sensitive tastes.
You are very smart to get out while the getting is good!
You could go looking for an AWD Taurus- not nearly as many tech toys, but I dare say somewhat more reliable…
These are incredibly good looking cars. Both D3 and D4 look like a well muscled man who is also very well proportioned and elegant.
This is one long run on sentence but I’m at work and I’m using speech to text every time I say (dot) it spells out of curse word …..
Great read I myself have a 2013 A8L Sport Plus to my understanding they only made 50 of the sport pluses in my year model so no matter what goes wrong I can’t get rid of it because of the low miles that I have it at and it’s rare to also I learned that the A8 short wheelbase and long wheelbase 4.0 Turbo are actually S8’s and the S8 is actually an RS8 if you look at the performance numbers of the S6 and S7 the A8 makes more power and torque I’ve learned that guys purchase the A8L at 150,000 to 180,000 miles and they have them Dinoed and the car produces 460 to 480 horsepower I had my Sport Plus dynoed and it put out 515 horsepower Bone Stock untouched virgin but she’s not a virgin anymore producing well over 780 horsepower upwards of 840 horse but the one problem I’m having is I have not tuned my transmission to hold that power once I tune it I’ll get 800 plus at the wheels with all that being said ……. I would recommend that you give “integrated engineering” a call those guys have a stage 1 stage 2 program for the ECU and TCU they know these cars like the back of their hand I think if you purchase a TCU tune for your transmission from them it will solve the problem that you’re having with first or second and second to First my car started doing the same thing but not until I put two boost controllers on the car first of the year I’ll install my turbos and she will be producing well over 1300 horse on low boost. Hope you keep the car it could be a rare one !