From my view, the modern automotive reviewer has an increasingly irrelevant job. Faced with an exceptionally competent field of machinery from nearly every manufacturer, they have long been unable to warn consumers of mechanical hiccups, ridiculous build quality, or spooky handling on brand new vehicles. Remember those 1980s Consumer Reports where they took care to note if the engine started on the first try and ran smoothly? We’re beyond that now and real journalists should be digging deeper for substantive differences relevant to consumers. But today’s reviewers are generally not real journalists, they are initial-impression product critics and entertainers who need press car access.
They need something to differentiate between models in the short term, so mountains are made of molehills and mainstream family vehicles are reviewed through the distorting lens of the automotive enthusiast. Here the ghost of David E. Davis lurks, inspiring those of considerably less personality and talent to thinly emulate his elitism by panning workaday cars for no other reason than to signal their membership in the gentry. It’s not hard to find in the auto press. The too-slick erudite musings of Dan Neil. The absurd hyperbole of Jeremy Clarkson. The subset of staff writers across the web who are looking to write with an edge. They’ve lost the plot, lost the raconteur storytelling, but have kept the snark. And always there must be a target upon which to focus the rhetoric. In the midsize sedan segment, that would be the Camry. Which makes it rather interesting to admit that you walked away with one after cross-shopping it against enthusiast favorites like the Accord and Mazda6.
I’m risking charges of heresy now, because no one in the auto world likes the Camry. Too boring, too useful, too popular and now too affordable and too similar in objective performance to the segment favorites. The Accord, they will tell you, always did everything the Toyota did while also being special to sit in and drive. They aren’t quite right on either point, but a strong case can be made that the Camry has not been a clear leader for a decade. Better-looking and richer-feeling models have closed much of the reliability gap for the first buyer. But what of the second buyer who will be owning out of warranty? What of the Nissan refugee fleeing a transmission that began chewing itself apart before the odometer hit six digits? Whose finances and time are leveraged by kids? Might there be something long-lived, lightly used and substantially depreciated that can compete with Honda’s competent but rather dull ninth generation CVT Accord?
I present to you our 2016 Camry XSE 2.5, purchased a year ago in impeccable condition with 24K on the clock for $17K. The swan song of the K-platform’s sixteen year run. The current enthusiast reviewer on a press junket would never, ever approve. Mr. Davis probably wouldn’t either, but the iconoclast within him might enjoy the spectacle of a casual enthusiast defending the indefensible.
So let’s start. This starch-suspendered XSE drives nothing like the classic marshmallow Camry and I’m surprised anyone who owned and enjoyed one of those pillowtop cruisers would be OK with this one. The ride is a bit flinty, with no float or slop. Cornering is surprisingly flat and tenacious for a big FWD economy car on junk tires. You’re never going to successfully autocross this sedan, but passengers will holler and personal effects will tumble and crash across the cabin long before you run out of grip or confidence in the real world. You can easily outrun your sight lines on tighter mountain roads and string together turns quickly enough to freak out other motorists. I’m guessing a skilled driver could keep one affixed to the rear bumper of a hot hatch piloted by an amateur enthusiast on a winding road where power is a moot point. It has more cornering ability than you’ll ever use.
It is just fine on the interstate too. It is planted and engaged with the road surface. Quicker lane changes at 85 provoke less roll and yaw than some VWs I’ve driven and the car tracks well enough to prevent the minor within-lane wandering that becomes fatiguing over long slogs. The Fusion and 6 are a bit more precise and steady on-center, but we’ve logged 700 miles in a day in this car without any complaint about directional stability.
Those 700 miles also showed that Toyota finally paid attention to driver ergonomics. The steering wheel is contemporary and nice to hold. The firm, well-shaped seats feel sturdy and are more comfortable to me than the Fusion’s and light years ahead of the unsupportive, flimsy-feeling things installed in the ninth-gen Accord. Anyone much taller than 6 feet may notice remnants of the iconic too-tall Toyota driving position, though.
None of this is too remarkable. Most midsizers now behave well on the interstate and don’t fall apart in corners, so it is the plain jane port-injected 2.5L 4 cylinder and 6 speed automatic where the Camry puts some real distance between itself and rivals. There is no direct injection, no turbochargers, no ratio-overload transmissions, and that’s good. All of the competition uses some combination of these to boost power and efficiency ratings despite only a few delivering on both promises and some delivering on neither. In turn, you risk problems. Carbon buildup. Cylinder deactivation issues and gasoline in the oil. The hated ZF 9-speed. Nissan’s complete disaster of a CVT. None of this is worth a half second to 60 or 4mpg to me, and analyzing these tradeoffs is where automotive reviewers could now be providing an actual service to their readers. But they aren’t. And probably won’t.
So I was left to conclude for myself that this Camry’s powertrain was best-in-class because it actually does what it is supposed to do: provide performance and durability appropriate to the car’s mission. It’s quick enough, efficient enough, more than refined enough, responsive, runs fine on regular, and is about as proven as it gets.
The Camry does have some real faults. Toyota’s ambition to make this platform a “sporty” car leads to several of them. The suspension tune provides ride harshness in greater proportion than handling prowess. This is GTI stiffness without GTI tactility and limits. I think the best balance in this segment is struck by the Fusion that feels similarly nimble while avoiding some of the Camry’s impact harshness. The Fusion is also quieter than the Camry. It also has more natural and consistent steering. The Camry’s is well-weighted and precise on the move but slides toward heavy and numb at low speeds before going strangely slack at a crawl as if the column detached from the rack.
The interior is about what you can expect in this segment–surficial richness beset by hidden cost-cutting. It is very roomy everywhere and the low cowl and beltline provide excellent outward visibility. I like the synthetic suede, crisp gauges, effective seat heaters, dual-zone climate control, and refined nighttime aesthetic from the clean ice blue of the switchgear. The dashboard stitching, piano black and metallic accents provide further variety and interest absent from that benchmark 1992 Camry. It all looks suitably modern but the underlying build quality just isn’t quite there. Half the dashboard is hard plastic and temperature-dependent rattles ensure every season has a sound. It doesn’t feel as expensive as that 92, which makes sense because it isn’t.
So how does all this stack up against its 2015/2016 competition? I wish I could say I tracked down all nine competitors on the used car market and gave each a thorough shakedown, but I only managed five that were most appealing on paper. The Mazda was my personal favorite for the typical reasons, but the cabin’s a bit of a bunker, the rear roofline isn’t great for loading kids into car seats, and nearly all were ex-rentals. The Fusion earned third with delightfully Germanic motions and refinement, but the powertrains are a real weakness and I don’t quite trust it long term. The Accord was disappointing; I expected to be wowed after the press reviews but found poor seats, a cheapish interior, a weird bifurcated infotainment setup, and a so-so driving experience that didn’t make up for this. Fourth place. The 2015 Optima was pre-redesign and I didn’t like the seats or the reports of self-lunching Theta IIs, and it didn’t stand out otherwise. The Passat had a nice interior and engine, but the Fusion felt far more German and if I don’t trust the Ford I certainly don’t trust this.
The rest? Nissan’s garbage CVT started this car hunt, so it was never a consideration. I attempted to test a nice-looking Malibu but the local Chevy dealer’s wife was running around in it for the day so that was that. The Sonata doesn’t bring anything remarkable to the table and people are so bananas for Subaru that even a pokey CVT Legacy carries a price premium.
One year in and I’m still fine with the choice. This Camry was not a return to the competition-killing XV10 (above), but it remains nearly faultless as a family sedan and doesn’t wallow around anymore. You really don’t need to apologize or explain yourself for picking it over the competition. Any self-described enthusiast has committed the greater sin by looking at FWD automatic midsizers, haven’t they? I gave up pretending I was a serious car guy or Clarkson wannabe the moment I failed this litmus test. I should have been scouring for similarly priced E60s or Hemi Chargers or 40-year old W108s on auction. For 17 grand wouldn’t you rather roll up in one of those old regal Mercs? Of course you would. So would I, but I’ve got enough other expenses and demands on my time. Unlike reviewers I have real money in the game and no access to a press fleet. But hey, even the witty and endearing John Phillips owned a RAV4. So perhaps not all of the automotive press is off in outer space.
There’s a reason these are so popular with taxi fleets and Uber drivers: Toyota’s reputation for reliability. While I wouldn’t say it in such scathing terms, I do agree with your point about automotive journalists sometimes unfairly maligning a car even when a bad car today is nowhere near as bad as a bad car in 1980. I remember the Chrysler 200/Dodge Avenger twins routinely being criticized. Then I actually drove a 200 and it really wasn’t bad at all. But yes, it seems some journalists need to have a whipping boy.
I’m a huge fan of the new Camry and I’d love to drive one but I’m sorry, I can’t muster any enthusiasm for these previous generation models. I thought the 2014 restyle was a retrograde step and the 2011 has actually aged better (I like its crisp lines!), while the restyle also did little to improve the interior. Having sat in countless 2014-17 Camry Ubers, I’m always shocked at the drab, funereal, cheap-looking trim in the rear – I could only imagine what those aforementioned journalists would say if this was a GM product! – while the dashboard, although cleanly styled and ergonomic, is rather naff too with its faux stitching and fake wood. It’s a mostly good interior design that’s just been value-managed to hell. I’m sure it’ll hold up well but it’s not really satisfying to sit in. Yes yes, I am one of those awful people who loves soft-touch plastics.
Your rationale for picking the Camry over the others is sensible but I think I still would’ve gravitated towards the Mazda6. The current generation, post-facelift, has an extremely attractive interior and, of course, it’s the dynamic champion of the class. Mind you, most people don’t care about the latter point. You didn’t pick a bad car though… As you said, it’s hard to find a bad car nowadays. You certainly picked a reliable, well-built one.
Thanks William.
I really liked the Mazda6. The interior is step above the class, the seats are as good as this Camry’s if not better, the engine is a noticeable notch stronger, the steering a notch more natural. But the beltline really is too high and rear visibility poor. This was important for my wife, who drives the Camry more than I do, and rear seat access for the kiddos was also a factor. You’re kinda paying for the lovely styling there. We probably could have gotten used to these quirks, but there were not many privately owned post-refresh 6s on the market and this Camry happened to hit Autotrader at the right time at nearly $3K below book value. There wasn’t an equivalent deal on our side of the Mississippi, so we went for it.
My experience and impression of a 200 was quite opposite yours (I remembered having posted my details, but didn’t remember until now that you and I had the same point/counterpoint early this year 🙂 ).
I remember buying a new 2014 Jetta SportWagen TDI in Dallas, three hours from where I’m located. I ended up getting a one-way rental and driving down there to pick it up. I’m a bit of a rental-car snob—I once spent thirty minutes pawing through all of the Hertz Chevy Cruzes at the airport to see which one was a 2LT with an active OnStar subscription—so I would normally have turned down a first-generation 200 as a matter of course. But I was so excited about my new Jetta SportWagen that I didn’t care and snatched the keys up to the 2013 200 they offered, then pointed it toward Dallas.
The 200 in question was black, not loaded, but clearly not a base-model. I remember being not-so-impressed with the interfaces in the car or the materials, although the interfaces in my new JSW weren’t any better, and the JSW itself was actually at the end of its lifecycle in 2014. But it was comfortable, spacious, and drove quite well, with plenty of passing power. It was even in remarkably good shape for 45,000 miles Only when I got to the Volkswagen dealership did I have an inkling to pop the hood, and…yep, it was the 3.6-liter Pentastar version.
I test-drove one with the base engine and it was a completely different story. That one was horrid.
The base four-cylinder was definitely the worst part of the 200. I’m surprised they’re still flogging it in base model Journeys. I wonder who is even buying those… Most of the Journeys I saw in CA were up-spec Crossroad V6s and I dare say most of those were actually rental vehicles. Rental fleets seem to be much less likely to buy skinflint base models in the US, but I may be wrong.
You find both for some reason. When I got that Compass a while back I also had a choice of two Rogues next to each other. One was absolutely loaded with leather and every option, the other was a total base model without even any tinted windows. In Dallas.
Maybe so, but the 2.4 in my 2010 Sebring (yes, you read that right) just continues to run and run and run. 160K now, and I’ve never done a thing to it except oil changes. And the oft derided Chrysler 4 speed automatic also just keeps going. I finally had the fluid and filter changed at 150K.
I used to consider myself an enthusiast too, and for a while all I bought for “family” cars were BMWs and a couple of Volvo wagons.
But once I realized that I like taking vacations more than hunting down the cause of repeated ignition coil failures or constant ABS warnings, I did the unthinkable and bought a Toyota CUV.
I will never look back. Our ’15 Highlander does exactly what it’s supposed to flawlessly every day, giving me time to wrench on my weekend car instead of wasting my time and money.
Well done Petrichor, and welcome to CC.
You have clearly spent a lot of time doing this research. I laughed when reading that the Chevy dealer couldn’t let you test a Malibu because his wife was using it.
Your impressions of auto journalists hits the mark in my mind. Lots of people talk about how important “excitement” is in driving. In my book, driving excitement is hitting black ice on a highway curve, trying to wake up a oncoming driver who is drifting into my lane, or having the transmission go into “limp-home” mode on the expressway.
No driving excitement for me!
Give me a car that always starts and runs, doesn’t start to fall apart after the warranty expires, is safe, and will provide many years of reliable service (with proper maintenance of course).
My regular reply when people ask me if I am doing anything exciting this coming weekend is: “I hope not”.
Nice write up and an enjoyable read. Thank you.
Petrichor, in a rather considerable paradox, you perhaps prove that an auto journalist is not quite yet an irrelevance, by virtue of the excellence of this very piece both in writing and as reporting. Modern cars are generally stunning in their competence, and the real problems are indeed in ownership, or in things not important when sliding that tail at 11/10ths.
I would add the caveat that the glossy mags were always for the enthusiasts only (something even Ralph Nader got 50+ years ago when he “got” that the Corvair was a cool car for such), and their insistence that things be done better has had a major role in improving the breed generally. But the job has now come down to a dreary competition for attention by those, to use your words, without the racontuer but full of the snark. The job is already largely done, effected by the courageous and disciplined amongst their predecessors.
To use the sometimes-inane Jay Leno’s phrase, nicely done sir, nicely done.
You “owned” the motor press with this one, PETRICHOR!
Too boring, too useful, too popular and now too affordable. What could they possibly write about a car like that that’s controversial and sells the ink?
Your points about the tried and proven engine and transmission technology are spot on. It’s good to know there is still a port fuel injected 4 cylinder of recent vintage available.
A terrific first article – welcome aboard!
Your first two paragraphs are so spot on. Many auto journalists write from the perspective of a person having relatively few responsibilities (such as when young and single – or driving someone else’s car) instead of the vantage point of a person having many responsibilities (like raising a family and buying their own car for a multi-year fling). There is a difference between the two approaches.
The number of Toyotas that have ever been in my extended family just doubled – my aunt and her husband bought an Avalon earlier this week. The last Toyota also belonged to them and it was a ’75ish Corona. Like Nissan was not a consideration for you, Buick was not for them after theirs had a few temper tantrums.
May you have many good and carefree miles in your Camry!
Really good auto journalism shows up at the most unexpected times, like right here and now. An excellent look at a car that is simultaneously embraced bymany and ignored by many others.
I appreciate the preview as my stepmom bought one awhile back but I have yet to drive it. Your take reminds me of the Impala/Caprice of yore. They were always popular with the masses because they tended to be drama-free. And by the 70s they became good driving cars too.
There has been some kind of indescribable something about Toyotas that has kept me from feeling really at home in one. I would like to drive one of these to see if that has changed.
Welcome aboard, and a nice article about a good looking car.
Just as with the automotive press’ hatred for the Camry as a boring appliance, I’m amused at the oft-repeated internet tales of the fragility of Nissan’s CVTs.
No, I’m not a huge fan of the experience of driving the earlier ones, but unlike your experience I managed to bear piloting one for over 80,000 trouble-free miles, and my understanding is that it’s still going strong, over five years since I sold it. Owner data simply doesn’t seem to support the oft-repeated internet tales of their fragility.
For the majority of drivers who are not enthusiasts, Nissan’s Jatco CVTs have provided millions of miles of competence and reliability. In that way I’d propose they’re not unlike GM’s Powerglide, panned by automotive writers and enthusiasts, but loved by many owners.
“In that way I’d propose they’re not unlike GM’s Powerglide, panned by automotive writers and enthusiasts, but
loved byignored and tolerated by many owners.”There, fixed it for you. 🙂
You’re 100% right…thanks for fixing that for me!
My son’s friend who is a technician at a Nissan dealership would disagree that their CVTs are reliable. They have a dedicated CVT technician who keeps quite busy.
Thanks BuzzDog. I cannot quite agree on owner data not supporting the claim of Nissan CVT fragility–Consumer Reports data is now starting to show evidence of it as they age. What’s the actual failure rate though? Who knows. But that’s a topic for another post!
I only had time to look at the Altima and Murano on Consumer Reports online, but with the exception of two years in which there were major redesigns (2007 and the “Major Transmission” reliability shows as better or much better than average. The Murano show the transmission to be reliable back to 2007. Perhaps the CVTs in older Nissans are not on par with the reliability of the ones in Camrys of similar vintage, but they appear to be in the same ballpark as the Accord from the mid-aughts on (which is about when Honda addresses its transmission issues in V6-powered vehicles).
Like you, the Six Sigma geek in me would really like to see the actual failure rate, and normed for multiple conditions and factors, of course. 🙂
We had an ‘04 Murano – during our ownership period (2006-2007) Nissan sent us documentation extending the CVT warranty to either 100k or 120k miles and a number of years. So while there may have been issues Nissan was in fact proactive in trying to help people with it. Sure it would suck if it went out after the warranty extension but even regular transmissions in lots of cars can’t seem to last anywhere near as long as an angine. We didn’t have any issues with the trans while we had it but that’s not a surprise to anyone here…
Oh, brother.
I suppose every mechanical excrescence has its fervent defenders—the Nissan CVT, the Chrysler A604, the Pinto, the Vega—but.
If my words were perceived by you as a fervent defense, perhaps you should reread them.
It looks to me like an effort to elevate an anecdote.
1. This is a fantastically well-written piece. It’s entertaining, it’s intuitive, and it’s thought-provoking. Not to mention that I couldn’t find anything in the sentiment that I didn’t agree with.
2. I’d posit that the author, and probably 90% of the CC populace do qualify as more than “casual enthusiasts” by today’s standards. One factor that led to this opinion is the fact that while there was brief mention of infotainment systems and the like, most of the text here was devoted to real-world USE of the vehicle with a slant toward driving dynamics. Read most reviews nowadays, whether they be written by “The Automotive Press” or by Joe Schmoe randomly ranting on Edmunds.com and they’ll make casual mention of cornering prowess, braking and wet pavement grip, then wax on endlessly about the menus on touch screens, effectiveness of lane-departure systems and relative ease of self-parking functions. At least here it seems central to the mission to remember that the friggin’ thing is intended to be a transportation device to reach point B from A safely, comfortably and without unintended delay over and over again. Seems like a pretty sensible and well-rounded automotive review to me.
Amen. I bought your car’s bigger brother (or is it cousin?), a 2016 Lexus ES350, thirteen months ago, with under 14,000 miles and I wrote it up here. Everything you said applies to my experience, albeit with a few more features. None of which I just have to have. A one or two year old Camry is an extreme value, IMHO.
I am coming up on 50,000 miles soon and was going to post a little COAL update. I hope to hear more about yours later too!
Yeah, I’d call the ES 350 an uptown cousin of the Camry, with model looks, but who’ll still go volunteer at the homeless shelter, or eat at a “trashy” restaurant.
Welcome aboard, this is a well-written article, and I agree with your comments about automotive journalism these days. I grew up on LJK Setright, Phil Llewellin and Gavin Green, and I find car magazines very uninspiring now, focusing more on style than substance. I have also noticed in many instances that cars which ‘fail’ comparison tests (i.e. the ones that finish last or second-last) are some of the best sellers on the market.
Just traded in what’s almost this car’s twin. Blue Crush ’16, 28K miles, for a new Highlander. You have to add stellar resale and “put together like a Rolex” to the list.
gee, the Camry ranks well below others – especially the Accord – in virtually every professional review and actual consumer sales in the case of the Accord
like the old Dr. Pepper ads, some people prefer to be different
The latest Accord is becoming the poster child of what happens when your product is critically acclaimed, but with sales not reflecting that. The Camry’s outselling the Accord by about 60,000 units YTD.
because the Camry sells to fleets snd their retail sales have huge discounts compared w/ the Accord
same w/ the RAV4
rental class vehicles
davis, fleet sales mean little to me in this segment. The durability reputation of the Camry was only reinforced when I visited Manhattan this summer and saw that all of the venerable Crown Vic taxis had been replaced by Camry hybrids and 2.5s.
Anyway, I’ve been reading the fleet queen rhetoric for some time and it doesn’t speak to me. Having driven both base and high-zoot trims of this Camry and Accord back-to-back, I feel comfortable hypothesizing that the reason the Accord doesn’t have a fleet presence is simply Honda’s decision not to sell to fleets to preserve brand image. If that creates a halo to some buyers, great, but it doesn’t speak to the intrinsic qualities of the vehicle itself. It’s still a FWD family sedan built to a mid-20s price point.
It also seems that there are two kinds of fleet vehicles. One sells once to a fleet manager for a steeply discounted price designed to temporarily juice sales numbers. The other sells over and over to a fleet manager on a good combination of initial price, low downtime/repair cost and high resale value. I suspect that Toyota has been the second kind.
It would be interesting to hear Jason Shafer chime in on this as he has some fleet management experience.
For quite a while I’ve been advocating acquisition of a few Camrys in the fleet to see how they hold up, especially with “domestic” sedans going away. While some may think this next statement bizarre, here goes: They have some tough competition with the aging W-body Impalas where I work. Those cars are about as impervious to abuse as anything I’ve ever seen, although there were a few ’08 models (like I had briefly) that had transmissions that retired at 130,000 miles.
From my fleet experience as a heavy user and, for 20 months, the fleet manager, fleet units sold to my employer weren’t necessarily purchased based upon price. A Dodge Stratus was a one-year wonder in ’04; Impalas and, earlier, Taurii, were as common as oxygen. A few Cavaliers purchased in the mid- to late-90s for fuel economy reasons were dumped quickly.
I still maintain long-term fleet use is the acid test for any car. Also, while anyone so bored as to research it will find a few of my rental reviews of Toyotas (3 to date!) I do realize these were rentals that, while mechanically fine, were showing troubling signs of premature aging.
Jim Klein and I had a long talk recently about Toyotas when driving back to St. Louis from Staunton, Illinois, at the CC Gathering. We debated whether the things I found with these rentals (excluding the Corolla) was a sign of Toyota quality, abuse due to being a rental, or some combination thereof. It must also be said that I’m a skeptic to a higher degree than the general population.
So that’s why I would love to see a Camry or ten in use where I work. It’s a much more controlled environment despite the umpteen drivers many units will likely see. I think they will hold up quite well and provide many years of great service.
Many dog cars that go in fleets; from this vantage point, a car seeing fleet use gives some degree of testimony to their robustness. They either make it or not. I think the Camry would go 200k in fleet use with few problems.
The “all new Accord” is getting ignored in favor of the CRV and Civic by Honda buyers these days. They had to cut production in its first year. The days of it being called “the perfect car”* are over.
*I couldn’t stand the TV ad for the new 2008 Accord, “…in creating the perfect car…” Oh shut up.
FWIU if you’re buying the Accord was a decent value from launch but as a lease, you could get a 3-Series for the same monthly.
Welcome to the CC writers club, Petrichor! This was an extremely well written piece.
I will have to disagree with you about the automotive press. People still want to see comparative analysis of different brands, and I think there are resources out there that do a good job at informing the consumer. For example, Alex on Autos and Doug DeMuro talk about cars in ways that appeal to everyone without resorting to them. And the YouTube channels for KBB and Edmunds do relatively in depth reviews too. The car mags will always go for the performance angle because their customers are the type of people who want that type of content. The automotive intelligentsia does have blind spots, though. Crossover hate is still prevalent and needs to die as quickly as possible because there is nothing inherently wrong with them.
I had the opportunity to drive a 2016 Camry XLE a while ago and came away unimpressed. But it did also enlighten me as to why people purchase them: they’re smooth and Toyota’s powertrain refinement is second to none. Add bulletproof reliability and you’ve got a compelling product. I hope your Camry serves you well for many years to come.
To Edward Snitkoff, and others,
Regarding the Automotive Press, in actuality the print media automotive press is but a shadow of what we took for granted in the past. In actuality gone, dead. The golden age of R&T and Car and Driver are long gone.
Thanks to Paul N, Curbside Classic has become the home for amazingly good automotive writing, humor, and information long ignored by the current paper automotive media.
Paul has said that this isn’t a modern Automobile Quarterly, and I have to agree–it’s better..
Just look at the breadth and depth of the articles/posts produced by his ever expanding core of impassioned, amateur authors. Want history, then count on PN, Don Andreina and Tatra87, want interesting motorcycling touring, Don Saunders is the man, want humor from the midwest, then JP Cavanaugh and Jason fill the bill. New authors like Petrichor, with this maiden article, keep adding to the mix.
The CC writers are like Sherlock Holmes Baker Street Irregulars, an increasingly diverse universe of interesting writers with diverse experiences and opinions to write about and share.
The published print media and its writer had their day, why look for LJK Setright, Peter Egan,or Henry Manney III to reappear in print. Those ghosts/giants are gone, just well written memories.
CC has provided a voice for virtually everyone to contribute in all sots of ways to the commonly shared enthusiasm.
I submit to you that we are actually living in and reading contributions to a new form of Automotive Paradise courtesy of PN and CC, and most of us don’t know what a special time and place we are living in now, as we are enjoying the daily contributions and posts.
Do we need young, recently post pubescent automotive writers forming our opinions by reading their usually uninformed opinions, no, here in CC land we can actually contribute our opinions and our own experiences to the CC readership. Welcome to the new world of the Automotive Press–us, the CC.
Thank you, Paul.
The internet has changed everything in this regard, obviously. It’s given a chance for everyone to have a soap box, for better or for worse. I’m a bit reluctant to say this, but the issue regarding automotive journalists is similar to the issue with teachers: once upon a time, these were professions that (often) attracted the best and brightest, as there weren’t that as many other opportunities for those with a good education and intelligence. Unfortunately, that’s no longer the case. There’s much more money (and fame) in other fields. And that has opened up a huge opportunity for amateurs like us. It turns out that those that have had success in other professional fields often make excellent automotive scribes. At CC we have doctors, attorneys, engineers, advertising pros, editors, executives and managers of many kinds, and all sorts of other successful professionals who long held an interest in autos and related fields. CC is a soap box for them all, and it makes me very happy to see so many find their voices here. It’s the source of my greatest satisfaction at CC, to see the latent (or not) talents of others flourish here.
I can’t decide what his been a more enjoyable read: Petrichor’s insightful and exceptionally well written assessment of the Camry, or Geelongvic’s equally articulate assessment of CC and automotive “journalism”, or all the other great comments here. But as someone who grew up with John Bond, Henry Manney, Alan Girdler, Gordon Jennings, LJK Setright and others, I’m pretty happy with the current online offerings. The great thing now is the opportunity to self-select into the sites (communities really) that educate and entertain us. In my case, that’s no longer R&T or CD, though an occasional glance through Hemmings, Top Gear or the UK’s Bike magazine is still satisfying.
Great write-up. This hit home for me on two accounts:
First, the Automotive Press. Two decades ago I subscribed to just about every car magazine I could find. This year, I let my subscription lapse on the last one. There’s many reasons for this, but essentially the auto press has become almost completely vapid. Any time I need real information on a new car, I do research on online forums or smaller websites. I mourn this, but in a rather distant manner – the auto press’s decline has been long and slow, and websites (like our own CC) have filled in the gaps. Fortunately, there’s other sources of information out there now.
Second, the Camry. With each passing year, I find myself being drawn closer into the Camry vortex. Not too long ago, I would have considered the thought of buying a Camry to be abhorrent. But as I look around at new cars, they annoy me. Like you said, the Camry “does what it is supposed to do” – and it does it quite well. Several years ago, I test drove a used Camry and liked it. At first I felt sort of guilty, but no more. If I should need to buy a new car in the coming year or two, a Camry will be high on my list.
Thanks for the insights here – this has been a pleasure to read.
Very nice. You are experiencing exactly what I did with the rental Corolla a few weeks back, that being a car that is significantly better than you’d be led to believe by merely listening to “experts”. As someone alluded to above, don’t fall into the trap though of assuming all CVT’s are bad just because some are, you’d want to be able to cite some actual data on failure rates to make that assumption. (But a single direct personal experience can certainly cloud one’s overall outlook, I know.)
At some point in many people’s lives, being an “auto enthusiast” changes from being completely interested in for example what the absolute cornering of a car limit is to being able to be confident and enthusiastic that the car will in fact just make it to the next corner. And the one after that. And then next one etc. I think I’m getting to that point now. Not that I can’t get excited about some cars anymore, but rather that a whole new world has opened with a smorgasbord of offerings that are actually interesting as well, but often in very different ways.
In any case, welcome aboard, and I (as well as others it appears), look forward to hopefully reading more!
A truly excellent first time article, Petrichor!
Especially since you mirror my automotive observations.
Keep ’em coming!
This is my favorite gen Camry. Never driven one, but it hits all the marks on paper and looks. Great points about the auto press. I’ve thought something along those lines for awhile, but you cut to the heart of it. Consumer Reports gives me more raw data which I am a fan of, and is more useful to me as I buy almost-new. Some cars are just hated on whether they deserve it or not. My Taurus has been more reliable overall than the Toyotas and Hondas I’ve had. So thanks for a great read!
In 2011 I needed an ultra reliable, comfortable, fuel efficient car for my 70 to 90 mile a day work commute. After consulting with “Road & Track” and “Car & Driver” magazines, I was off to develop my own impressions.
The Accord rode too firm for my tastes. The automatic tranny was rough and jerky shifting. The local dealers were still tacking on “Additional Dealer Greed” mark ups to the window stickers.
The Altima had a cheap, flimsy interior & rough feeling engine/transmission. One year old models on the used car lot were already showing wear.
The Sonata, with it’s brand new restyle, showed promise; but was still kinda-sorta rough around the edges. On the high speed fan setting, the A/C blower (SO necessary in hot & humid New Orleans!) had an unpleasant rooaaarrrrrrrr and slight vibration.
The Camry LE, although considered “dull” by the collective automotive press, did NOTHING wrong and very much correct. The buttery smooth 4 cylinder engine/6 speed automatic gave more-than-adequate acceleration 98% of the time, the seats fit my 6-1, 48 Long suit, 240 pound self quite comfortably. The A/C was as efficient cooling down the interior as any American car was. At $18,900 I considered it quite the automotive bargain.
With it’s “Barcelona Red” exterior paint and bisque cloth interior, it was easy-on-the-eyes and kinda-sorta sporty looking; in a laid back and refined way. I liked this body much better than the subsequent restyle/updated Camrys.
I put 85K trouble free miles on it; then sold it to a friend who had been admiring it from day one, at my asking price.
Although I was a 30 year accolade of “Car & Driver” magazine; we parted ways on the “Camry vs. Accord” debate. The superior twisty road handling of the Accord was a minor consideration for me; most of my driving was in the neighborhood or 70 to 80 mph Interstate cruising. The Camry was the far better car of the two for this environment!
C&D should be called “Honda and Beemer”. Expectation is one buys a Honda when graduating college, then move up to leasing BMW’s every few years, to “keep up with the Richardsons”.
They automatically put Accord in Ten Best, and it’s a snooze fest.
Last Jan 2018 my wife bought a 2011 Altima 2.5 S. So far we like it. No issues yet. I dont have any personal gripes/ issues with the CVT. We have just over 100,000 miles on it so far. We bought it with 92,000. So we’ll see. Two more years of payments! Hopefully it’ll last.
Great review I’ve been complaining about the automotive press for the same reasons for years now. They want everything to be a bmw 3 series. Automotive journalists aren’t car consumers. They don’t drive their own vehciles they’ve invested $$$ in on public roads. Most of the time they drive OEM ringers on closed courses hence the bMW comparison. Then they talk down to readers in a condescending tone as if they’re stupid for wanting to spend their $$$ affordable reliable A-to-B car instead of a 10 year old BMW. After test driving so many cars and having an different opinion on all of them compared to auto journalists I’ve learned never to listen to them again and just form my own opinion. My best example of this is the 2014 mazda6. While all the reviewers rave about it like it’s the 2nd coming of jesus I found it to be a cramped rough ride filled with wind engine and tire noise with an anemic diesel like i4 and artificial steering. NOWHERE NEAR the fun to drive midsize the first gen 6 was. It drove more like a mid 1990s gm N body than anything else. I’m sure this is why the 6’s sales have just kept falling but journos just shrug it off like consumers are stupid. It’s like mazda bases their products on car and driver reviews. Sad.
I recently purchased a 3 year old used midsize and considered the camry but didn’t consider it because the back seat couldn’t fit 3 car seats. Accord fusion optima legacy all could but not the camry, the center seat was too narrow. In addition to that the center console was hard plastic that made it a painful armrest for your right arm. In the end I went with the 2015 accord exl v6 (19k for a honda certified one with 27k miles). Fusion had more bells and whistles but I didn’t like the high belt line. The legacy was anemic without the 6 cylinder and those were priced into the stratosphere. The optima also got way more expensive than the accord when it came to the same features. I considered the i4 ex accord but compared to the price on the exl v6 it was not worth saving a grand to give up the features that came with the exl trim not including the v6.
Actually, they want everything to be what the BMW 3 Series used to be.
They’re complaining about those cars, too. (Although, having owned a couple of Bimmers when they were “the ultimate driving machine”, I can’t disagree with them.)
I sure can second what you’re saying about NVH in the Mazda 6. I have a good friend who bought a 2016 new. It is a gorgeous car but road noise is ever present and the car has a punishing ride – literally crashes and bangs over rough pavement and potholes.
My impression of the competing Accord was the same as yours. The driver’s seat was awful!
When shopping for a family sedan in 2015, my list of “must haves” was pretty short: Manual transmission, NOT German (I value reliability!), 32mpg or better, and ability to haul my son’s hockey gear.
When driving the Accord and Mazda6 back to back, the Honda seat comfort issue made itself immediately evident. I was also shocked to learn the Accord did not have SPLIT rear folding seatback, the whole seatback folded! This would not work for me–My son’s hockey sticks are too long for the trunk, so must poke into the back seat….yet my son still rode back there when Mom was with us…so I still needed passenger capacity back there. Honda corrected this fault in the 2016 model year, but I don’t understand how they made such an oversight in the 2015 my.
My Mazda6 has been entirely reliable over 80k miles. While direct injected, no carbon buildup issues in mine. Niggles include, like Camry, a too taught suspension, and poor entry/egress to front seats—very awkward twist required to get my fat ass in the car without hitting my head on the low roof (Methinks this is what drives so many buyers to CUVs).
The previous two generations of Accord left my back aching after a long drive. The 2008-2012 suffered from a lumbar support that was too aggressive, while the 2013-2017 just had flimsy seats. The thrones in the 2018+ look promising.
Meanwhile, the CR-V–which has at this point eclipsed the Accord–suffers from none of these issues and is one of the most comfortable vehicles on the market.
We bought a new car for my wife last spring. We started looking back in November 2016; it was the first time where price wasn’t a major factor and she wanted a hybrid, preferably a sedan. As the son and randson of former GM autoworkers, it was also the first time I didn’t insist on a domestic nameplate. We tested many cars: Sonata, Lexus ES, Fusion Energi, Malibu, MKZ, Accord, Camry and RAV4.
I liked the Ford, but she didn’t. We both really liked the Accord, but THOSE FRONT SEATS. Man, it was like having a knee in your mid-back. It drove great, but so very uncomfortable. What really shocked me was how much I liked the Camry. In fact, I expected her to like it the best; they also had great end-of-model-run deals. It was the most comfortable to me. She ended up picking the MKZ, but I gained a real appreciation for the Camry. I would’ve been very happy had she picked it, but I mist admit the MKZ is quite nice too.
Thank you all for the kind welcoming comments and the very pleasant tone of those who don’t quite agree. Good group here on CC.
Re: The Press, I feel I should point out that I don’t universally think they are doing a poor job. Some are very thorough and balanced and provide useful information, such as the aforementioned Alex Dykes. He’s very good and balanced at drawing reasonable distinctions between brand new cars. The irritation I express at the press above comes from years of reading pubs like Car and Driver, Motortrend, Automobile, whose emphasis on driving dynamics and witty writing meshes poorly with mainstream vehicles, and whose writing qualities have tanked over the years. Their take on Lightning Laps I’ve got no problem accepting. But when they write with great flourish that on mainstream sedan is a near-sports sedan because of 0.02 more Gs on the skidpad and an EPS that is slightly less gooey and artificial, but fail to mention unsupportive seats and cheap cabin materials and still award it 10 Best for twenty years straight, then I get suspicious. I’m also not impressed with the legions of online reviewers such as KBB, Autotrader, Jalopnik, individual bloggers and youtubers who swoop in on manufacturer-sponsored drive events and then write really generic complimentary stuff. Or who try to be really witty and caustic as a way of “keeping the enthusiast flame alive” or whatever.
But where even the solid Alex Dykes of the business fall short is in determining how the cars will compare with 50-100K miles on the clock when things like the new powertrain trickery can lead to unexpected repairs or maintenance that evaporate all of your fuel economy savings. I can’t really expect him to do so, but it is a big missing piece of the puzzle for family cars purchased out of practical necessity rather than recreation. It takes a different talent set, one without much of a market, and one which I don’t have, so I feel a little bit guilty whining about it. But not too guilty, apparently 🙂
I’ve got my hands full for the remainder of the day but will try to check in periodically. Thanks again for reading.
Welcome here, Petrichor. Terrific piece, and I substantially agree with you in re the automotive press. We could have a friendly quibble over the particulars of how much is irrelevance and how much is tarted-up advertising for the “infotainment” age (it tests well with millennials, I’m sure—now get the hell offa my lawn).
You’re being far more charitable and diplomatic than he deserves.
Yeah, no kidding. My low-miles ’07 Accord, final year of the 7th generation, bought a few years ago, is my first Honda. It is a dependable transport module, I will give it that, but its controls and displays are very poorly thought out in a variety of infuriating ways, its fuel consumption (V6) is excessive, its poorly-programmed automatic transmission is clumsy, and it consistently manages to be on the wrong side of the line between reassuringly undramatic competence and dangerously soporific anæsthesia. I didn’t look at a Camry; I probably should have.
I liked my above mentioned 2011 Camry even more the day I sold it than the first day. Early Retirement ended my long daily drive commute; just didn’t need the Camry any longer.
As I said: It did NOTHING wrong and much correct.
My Father absolutely worshiped “Car & Driver”, bought several cars based on their recommendations without even driving them!
His son learned to read the car mags, consider their articles and then go make his own driving impressions/opinions.
That’s an important skill to learn, forming opinions and preferences. Done properly it tends to improve one’s results whether it means diverging from the high-handed smugness of “Car & Driver” or from that of “Consumer Reports”.
Welcome aboard to you!!!!
I have long given up on automotive journalists as much as I have given up on the Washington Post being a actual newspaper instead of a propaganda outlet for leftists.
I love cars but I have long come to the conclusion that I want a boring ,safe and reliable car as my daily driver. I still have a classic/project car to wrench on when I want to but for the daily driver i want a car that only needs the routine maintenance and minor repairs. The days for having a crap ton of parts in the trunk to keep a beater on the road are over for me.
If Camry was made by some other company other then Toyota, I would look into buying one. However because it is made by a company that I hate and will never buy another one due to my treatment regarding my then new Scion XB.
“This Camry was not a return to the competition-killing XV10” On another tangent, as good as the the 92-96 Camry was, it was slayed in the sales arena by the 92-95 and 1996 Taurus.
I went car shopping last week. I looked at Honda but all the local Honda dealers wanted close to MSRP for their vehicles and that was a no go for me. Maybe 20 years ago in 1998 I would have paid close to MSRP for a Honda but in 2018 with so many good cars out there to buy, there is no reason at all to pay close to MSRP for a Honda.
Subaru was out because I did not want a full time AWD car. Back in the old days(up to 1999) Subaru cars had the option to keep it in 2WD mode. Where I live, I don’t need AWD 24-7 365 days a year. Sunny and 70 degrees, does not need AWD.
Nissan was a no go with the CVT
I went to the local Ford dealer to look at a lime green Ford Focus but the dealer would not even give me the time of day and after spending 20 mins standing around in a empty(no customers but full of sales folks) showroom without so much of a greeting I left never to return.
I ended up buying a Hyundai Elantra. The car looked good and was very roomy for my fat ass and I was in and out in an hour with all things done.
A co-worker purchased a new Nissan Murano as soon as they debuted.
We both discussed the CVT transaxle; we both were wary of it.
I suggested that he purchase an extended warranty that would cover the CVT. He did (but not from the dealer).
They still have the Murano, his wife loves it. The extended warranty got used several times (CVT and #HVAC system.)
No wonder it rides flinty, look at those wheels and tires. Another product of bad journalism telling us that’s what we should want.
I traded in my ’14 Focus for a ’15 Camry XSE, and not looking back. Ford couldn’t care less about car buyers who want to save money.
They never fixed the DCT, permanently. It was acting up again, for the 5th time, and I dumped it. Used to stick up for Focus, etc, but now, “bye bye bye”.
Having car that runs well, without worry, is more important than ‘being interesting’.
I shopped online, and looked at XSE’s or XLE’s, since I wanted features. But, I dislike sunroofs, since they cut headroom.
Found an XSE, [no sunroof!] with 76K miles, off lease, and maintained at dealer. Some would say “miles too high”, but if maintained, fine with me, saves depreciation cash. Has new battery, filters, and from brake pads/rotors. No haggle price of $14,700, and no hard sell of F&I junk. Ex rental 2016 SE’s about same price, but no leather or XM.
Toyota dealer had my Focus for a month, now gone, and I bet it got sent auction, for BHPH stores.
I don’t care if I hit 100K soon, will run and run. Can argue all day about “what’s the perfect car”, but I am over all that.
Sunroofs, another item that automotive writers fawn on and on about, do nothing for me.
The critical loss of headroom, as you mentioned, is often a make/break issue for me.
In the sultry climate of my area, a powerful & frigid A/C system is much more desired than a sliding hole in the roof that just lets in more hot & humid air.
I have friends/acquaintances who demand sunroofs in any car, and expect them a standard equipment. “Pffft”, I say.
Glad Toyota doesn’t force them on buyers wanting higher trims, like Honda, making you get the plain LX, with plastic hubcaps, to have headroom.
Traditional automotive journalism is of course mostly targeted at the younger demographic just as is automotive advertisement, since the two go so totally hand-in-hand. The industry knows that only younger buyers can (hopefully) be influenced by advertising and breathy journalism. Older buyers are too objective, or set in their ways.
Of course there’s exceptions, it’s a generalization. And one that I’ve seen in myself, as I lost more and more interest in the magazines and many web sites. It may or may not be the quality of the writers; there’s certainly some good writers still out there. But so much of the auto journo industry is focused on the obvious: getting clicks/views/likes/etc., but then it was always the case, one way or another. The media thrives or dies by its popularity. And that naturally loses appeal as one gets older, at least to some of us.
I’ve long given up worrying about CC’s popularity. It’s found its niche, and it attracts the kind of folks that I like to hang out with and swap stories with. That in itself means its growth is self-limiting. I don’t like to be in crowds. 🙂
Paul, you run my favorite website. Usually you make it clear to people that this isn’t the place for politics, trolling or any of that. I think you missed one. I for one come here to get away from that stuff. But love your work and happy you are all here.
I think you missed one.
What exactly? I’m missing your point.
There was a comment above somewhere mentioning the Washington Post and “leftists”. Just thought it could get nipped in the bud before the comment thread turns into ugliness like so much else nowadays. Maybe I overreacted. Not my place to say but I like the the vibe here and was defending it. Thanks for replying.
Welcome to the CC writers’ club!
As I’ve aged (and the automotive market has changed) I, too have become an armchair automotive enthusiast.
A year ago, I wrote that I “gave up” and bought a 2008 Prius
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/coal-capsule/coal-catch-up-ive-given-up/
But at the same time, it’s given me insight into what I call the “remarkably adequate car”. It does everything I need it to do while getting 50mpg.
A 9-year-old Prius carries the risk of the hybrid battery giving up at any given moment, but I live with that. However, my next car will simply be whatever the nicest Toyota I can find for around $10k. I’m done owning “interesting” cars; I’ll just enjoy them from the sidelines.
Evan, I think several of us have pointed out to you before that Toyota hybrid batteries don’t “give up at any given moment”. They very slowly lose some of their capacity, but that has only a minor effect for quite a while. The Prius is a very popular taxi, and 300k+ miles is very common before battery degradation becomes an issue. Stop worrying about this. 🙂
You’re right that I shouldn’t worry, of course. It’s just a natural state of being for me 🙂
However, both anecdotal and empirical evidence show that battery failure rates increase dramatically around 13-15 years, and that’s regardless of mileage. Doesn’t matter whether the car has 50k miles or 350k – batteries tend to fail with age, not mileage.
30-mile is that you??
Wow, that is just about the best, most thorough review I’ve read in recent memory. Not only about the car itself, but the way you laid out the current automotive landscape and how ridiculous of a field autojournalism has become.
I was reading along and nodding with your descriptions of the interior: superficial fanciness covering up cost cutting.
I really like the suede in that Camry, that and the seat heaters, but minus the low-pro tires and flinty ride would be just the ticket. Oh and how about the lusty 2GR while we’re at it.
Glad to be reading you at CC, I noticed you haven’t commented on TTAC in forever. That place is going down the tubes.
Hey Gtem! I’d seen your comments around here and I was actually wondering if you would recognize me. Between the Camry and the failed Nissan and my disagreement with the auto magazines on the Accord, I figured it was a near-certainty. Thanks for the kind words.
I walked away from TTAC. I don’t like what the content has become, and after my last reader review submission I knew there was nothing further I could contribute as author or commenter. I’m not an industry insider, hobby racer, seasoned mechanic or engineer, or constantly in the new car market where I can sound off on driving impressions on new models. And I was no longer willing to contribute to the commentariat’s decline by engaging in the same round-and-round-and-round brand battles and politics.
CC is a far more pleasant place with a much more real and civil community and the content is far more to my taste and interest. Paul was incredibly helpful and welcoming. I’m not qualified to comment much here and probably won’t, but I enjoy reading the articles on odd car sitings, old American battlecruisers, real car impressions, and cool motorcycle road trip travelogues. There’s such a diverse, down-to-earth interest set here. I have several additional contributions rattling around in the brainpan that I would like to submit in the future, but I’m a slow writer.
Glad you’re here. Your car experience seems like a really good fit for this eclectic place. Ever consider writing something?
I’ve likewise gravitated towards CC and started commenting more actively in the last 6 months or so after reading the site on and off for years.
I actually had some stuff queued up to submit to TTAC back in the Stevenson era that never got published, a rental review of a Diahatsu Terios in the Costa Rican jungle, and my experience with my beater Nissan Maxima. I’ve been on a tear of beaters over the last 2 years, and have cycled through quite a few and would be glad to do some write ups when I have some more time to actually put something decent and readable together. Speaking of which, I’m currently driving a ’01 Audi A4 Quattro (stick, 127k miles) that I got for cheap through my brother, a “Russian special” as it were with previously repaired accident damage and some janky aftermarket replacement parts. THAT should make for some writing material all on its own, a serial Toyota owner dipping his toes into old German car ownership, replete with “which of these three balljoints is causing a clunk in the right front corner” and “why is the CEL back on”
I took this very flattering photo of it after some polishing, believe me she’s a 20 footer at the moment.
We’d be happy to post those article you submitted to them.
Very well written piece. That generation of Camry has an reputation to be boring, but no one wants the excitement for a vehicle break down in BQE or Cross Bronx Express Way. That is the reason for Toyota to be number one in the world. If I were you, i would buy a new one to take advantage of zero percent interest rate which was offering on all Camrys for close to 10 years. There are few things I would lkie to share. Its directional lights are mounted below the front “bumper”, too low for other drivers to see the lights from the inside rear mirror. To spice up the Camry, this vehicle uses its grill as part of bumper. This is not very practical in New York City. And some people find the front of this car is ugly. I guess they have not seen the new LS yet. A lot of Camrys are being used as Uber type service vehice in NYC, but I notice the body hardwares could not take beating as good as Towncar and Crown Victoria. For a reason I never figure out. The car service folks like to have the SE version as thier vehicle. Do they need to have a sporty handling in NYC for ferrying the customers? I know Ford Fusion is the best handling car among midsize cars in US market. My relative was assigned hybrid version of Fusion for his job as a treasury police, he likes it over his own Lexus ES. To avoid the reliability, you can lease instead of buying one. Crashing rating of that generation of Camry is not as good as the other midsizes in the market. However, the current generation of Camry is much improved in term of handling and safety with its new chassis. It has diect fuel injection engine and 8-speed transmission. Toyota also puts double wishbone suspension in all 4 corners.
SE’s have leather wrapped steering wheel and interior trim nicer then the “traditional” LE. Also, alloy wheels, versus plastic hubcaps on LE’s. [not counting 2018+]
I rented a 2017 SE last summer, while Focus had its 4th DCT repair, and didn’t want to turn it in.
Tygerleo, I just presumed all the Uber/livery drivers in NYC picked the SE because it had the best resale value without going all the way up to XLE spec.
I did a rental review of a 2014 Camry SE here:
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/trackside-rental-car-review-2014-toyota-camry-se-all-aboard/
I agree with very much of what you’ve said. I’m not sure the stiffer suspension of the XSE is worth it except for those who really will take advantage of it. The Camry encourages comfortable, relaxed driving, although it can certainly accommodate higher expectations too.
When I test drove the Camry that I did buy, I drove the SE version, with it’s stiffer suspension i wider, lower profile tires.
For my driving needs, the SE rode too stiff and crashed over the many potholes that abound in the watery, “coffee ground” subsoil in my area.
The LE had the better ride compromise for me.
Thanks Paul, and thank you for creating a space where folks can contribute in this way.
Ironically, while I think Toyota went a little overboard on the ride harshness I’d personally rather have it this way than too soft. If the SE/XSE didn’t exist, I’d probably be in a 6, Fusion, or Accord. It’s nice that Toyota offers both, and on those occasions when I’ve been driving solo on a local mountain road to a trailhead, I’ve had a bit of fun chucking it through turns.
Actually, I flubbed that, having forgotten that the SE had the same suspension as the XSE, right? My rental SE was actually just fine in that regard, with very confident handling on a brisk run through some windy, curvy back roads north of Baltimore I took to Harrisburg, yet it was very comfortable on the freeways too. A good balance.
IIRC the SE now has the LE tune, but with some sportier wheel/tire combos, or perhaps something in between, and the XSE goes all-out sporty with the ride/handling balance. Petrichor would know this best.
We’re about to take my wife’s ’12 SE 4cyl on a trip out to Philly this weekend. Her father bought it for her as a college graduation/entering medical school gift. She’s working on her final year of residency now, the Camry has rolled up 79k drama free miles. It’s the perfect car in that I only need to occasionally check up on the basics like oil level and tire pressure, otherwise it just keeps racking up miles and getting the bejeezus pounded out of it by Indy’s crappy roads on a daily basis.
Over those 79k miles we have:
Fair share of dents and dings (from hospital patients and a few years living in a less than nice apartment complex and walmart parking lots)
More than a few rock chips that hit right past the e-coat down to bare metal – a sore spot for modern Toyotas across the board, one of my biggest qualms with the car.
Minor dash rattle that comes and goes with temp fluctuations. As was stated, a XV10 this is not
Some cheap and creaky lower dash trim that now feels tacky after some hot Indiana summers have caused some plastic degradation
One replaced battery that died (IMO) prematurely at year 4
One rear hub assembly and bent rim – wife hopped the curb once on accident. Replacement hub ($130) was in a timken box but made by Aisin USA in Indiana, I was impressed. Used OEM rim off ebay was $100 shipped.
One set of General Altimax RT43 tires replaced at 44k miles, and one of those replaced last spring after a nasty pothole
1 set of rear brake pads replaced – they were starting to drag in the caliper seats due to corrosion. Front brakes are still original, minimal pulsation
I switched to a 5k mile 0W20 OCI after discovering it was a quart low after 7k miles at the last oil change (I DIY it), I frankly was a bit dismayed at that level of consumption. The engine was making an ominous intermittent light knocking sound at idle, gone after I changed the oil.
Lifetime average fuel economy of 28 mpg, not bad at all for predominantly city driving. Long highway trips typically yield 35 mpg.
It’s no longer the overbuilt beacon on a hill that the XV10 was, but it is a perfectly servicable, roomy, reliable car that you can just use and use and use and focus on other things in life. I think the new XV70 generation Camry is a step backwards in more ways than one.
It’s important to remember that the XV10 Camry was significantly more expensive (in adjusted dollars) than later generations. The real out-the-door price of a Camry has dropped significantly over time since then.
Absolutely, people now would balk at paying $30k inflation adjusted dollars for a 1992 Camry LE 4cyl with its equipment level. You get a TON of car for the $18k or so you can find a brand new Camry LE for. Yeah yeah the interior has a few rattles, nasty feeling cloth (on most trims), and weak paint, but you’re still getting a great family car that will last a long time, now at a discount.
I had a ’96 ES300 for a winter car 2 years ago, that level of “brick sh*thouse” feeling was never replicated by another generation of FWD Toyota sedan.
On the topic of the new TGNA based XV70 that has now been rolled out fully globally. Some anecdotal evidence perhaps, but over in Russia a lot of people very strongly prefer the last of the K platform cars (XV55, like the ’16 in this review). The new cars have an even bigger bent on sporty dynamics, but for over there people are concerned with the loss of ground clearance and just how stiff the tuning has gotten even on the base cars. There are complaints about the sloping rear roofline, and the further cheapening of the interior as well. My cousin’s friends in Biysk were in the market, took one test drive of a new XV70 and immediately went on the hunt for a final year XV55, which they ended up paying dearly for but considered it worth it.
Over in Russia (Siberia at least) Camrys are not seen as blue-hair cars, but they are part of what’s considered “business class” over there: E-class sized sedans that are still affordable enough to buy and to run, often bought by companies for important people to be chauffeured in. Some of the worst speeders I saw over there were guys in Camries who thought they were hot stuff. The previous ‘global’ XV55 was generally better trimmed than our cars, theirs started at more or less ‘XLE’ level with push-button climate control instead of knobs, fake wood trim, nicer interior materials. They are also sold for prices closer to the $30k range to start, so maybe a bit less cost cut than the stuff we now get here. Even stuff like the tail lights and trim look like higher dollar stuff
I can see why the new Camry might be criticized for its lower roofline, sportier bent etc but one thing your Russian friends and I disagree on is the interior quality. It’s hugely improved, with soft-touch plastics everywhere and a more attractive design. It’s a very, very nice cabin and the available red leather seats in the sporty variants just really pop!
Also, we got your Camry here in Australia, in V6 trim, as the Aurion. The previous generation of “prestige” Camry/Aurion, the XV40, was actually so much more attractive than the regular/USDM Camry even if it was pretty much the same inside. I’m surprised they didn’t just make it the universal body.
“It’s hugely improved, with soft-touch plastics everywhere and a more attractive design. It’s a very, very nice cabin ”
I’ve had 2 ’18 rentals here in the US, an SE and an LE. I think it’s a marked step backwards. In photos it might look snazzy to some, but it’s that same very superficial surfacing that was mentioned in this ’16 review, but taken a step farther. So sure some particular touch points might be softer than before, but anywhere you dig even a little deeper, is cheaper than it was before. That and the louder DI motor and busy 8spd auto (in the US, Russia gets the good old port injected 2.5 and carryover 6 spd auto), refinement overall is down noticeably.
I confess, I only had limited seat-time in one parked on a dealer’s lot but from what I saw I was impressed, especially considering I thought the outgoing model had one of the segment’s worst interiors.
Next time I sit in one, I’ll dig a little deeper. But I’m surprised to hear it’s a step back in some respects, I didn’t get that vibe.
Maybe I’ve been wrong all along here, but I always thought the Aurion was just the name Toyota Australia gave the Camry when they put a V6 into it in place of the four. You mean there was more to it than that?
It is. But the Aurion used the front and rear sheetmetal of the “prestige” Camry sold in certain Asian markets and Russia. The difference is, those markets had a four-cylinder available with that sheetmetal whereas we had the USDM Camry sheetmetal with four-cylinder only and the “prestige” Camry sheetmetal with V6 only.
Roofline, doors, interior etc were the same between the two. Toyota Australia just tried to dupe people into thinking the Aurion was a “full-size” car… An arbitrary distinction as a Camry gave up nothing in space to a Falcon or Commodore, really, but it had a four-cylinder engine so therefore it was a “mid-size”
0-20 is all about CAFE standards and I wouldn’t recommend it for long term durability. At least in all but the coldest part of the year would recommend 5-30, or just use 0-30 year round. The oil consumption will be less either way.
I’ve read (here also?) on various automotive websites that the Camry is the modern comparable model to a pre-1955 Chevy.
Any truth to this?
As much as I liked my 2011 Camry; I just cannot “see” myself choosing a six cylinder Chevy over a V8 Ford of the early 1950’s…..
As someone who was growing up during that era, I can see the truth in the comparison. My uncle bought a new 1954 Chevrolet 210 with Powerglide and drove it (in rustbelt Indiana) for ten years. Now no one ever took better care of a car than he did, but nevertheless that Chevrolet was well-built, smooth, quiet, and went about its business with little fuss. The late 40’s/early 50’s Chevies of other relatives, friends, and neighbors that I rode in to school, church, etc. were the same.
Following a brief interlude with Nash, my Dad was a Ford man, as were many of his friends. But I distinctly remember thinking to myself – as a little boy – that Fords of this era were so tinny compared to Chevrolets, they rode harsher, rattled more, and required more maintenance (Fix Or Repair Daily wasn’t totally a joke but my Dad was a competent mechanic). However, the flathead V8s were performers and everyone in Dad’s circle were doing their own mods. We had a metallic blue 49 coupe with a souped-up 53 V8 and manual that scared the heck out of my Mom when on occasion she switched from her 52 Nash Statesman to drive me to school in it. Fun times.
On many automotive sites I’ll often read the headline and scroll straight to the comments if I want a better take on a car, or technology, or general news, and then read the article. That’s something I never do at CC and it’s quite telling. Modern automotive journalism has become predictable and bland, using important sounding stats differing in decimal points, with industry sources often as easily obtained by the reader as them, and often times their intuition and speculation is way off since they live in a bubble.
The gripe I have is the big publications equate car performance with car enthusiast. I’m a hot rodder, so perhaps I shouldn’t talk, but I work on cars I love for reasons totally unrelated to their inherent performance value (it’s usually lack thereof) , I just add performance parts because I can(and sometimes are the only way to keep an old car on the road) because I simply like the car enough to put money into it and that applies to showroom new cars as well. I live breath and sleep automobiles, have since I was a little kid, and there are a few new cars I’d buy despite the fact that they aren’t the fastest best handling cars in their classes (not the best quality or ergonomics either on the other side of the spectrum), but because personal feelings of aesthetic and romantic ideals aren’t measurable in a slalom, there is no way to cummunicate to enthusiasts like myself why the writer liked a car so much either, and I don’t think I’m a rare breed of enthusiast who puts car ahead of stats like that, otherwise zero old cars would have been preserved.
The elephant in the room with the Camry and arguably Toyota as a whole with auto journalism is they almost needent even be reviewed, they’re unspoken benchmarks in tests. One could plausibly come up with the headline “of what use is there for other cars/companies”, and there’s probably a certain sense of denial with current journalists about that, so rather than crediting Toyota for making such a monster, they plea with people to look for alternatives(ironically praising aspects of them that make them ever more Camry like, including the Accord) so they can get back to the old old days of pointing out legitimate issues that effects the end consumer.
You raise a good point there, Matt. Toyota is sort of the default car company nowadays. A safe choice if you don’t know much about cars, or don’t want to think about it. Not denigrating Toyota as a product; that’s just how I see the general perception of the brand. And that’d be why there’s so many of them on the road.
Now people like me are contrary enough to want something different. No matter how excellent their product might be, there is something in me that wants to steer away from the Number One juggernaut, to barrack for the underdog. To stick it to the big shot.
Toyotas may have better dynamics than ever before. But they’ll probably never return to the interior quality they had before the Great Cheapening. So the gap between a Toyota and any-other-car has narrowed a lot over the last 20 years or so. But as Petrichor has shown us, a good objective case can be made for purchasing one.
This is one of the best real reviews of a Camry I have ever read. Amen to everything you said Petrichor! Oh, and my 1992 Camry 4cyl that I bought very well used is almost at 200,000 miles and still going strong!
I enjoyed your critique.
I have a 2010 Venza which is on the Camry platform. I commented previously that this car has everything I want, and need, except excitement. But since I’m barely on the right side of 60, the days of lusting for a BMW 2002 are long past. I’ve had the Venza now for about 4 years and 40000 mostly untroubled miles (the scary thing was having my dashboard go bonkers in attempting to start the car, and once putting in a new battery, the problem disappeared). I bought it pre-certified Toyota after it was returned after a 4 year lease. The 6 speed CVT hasn’t been a problem except when I have to punch the accelerator and it starts looking for a downshift point. The seats are good on the short haul (one reason I got it), it can pull a trailer without breaking a sweat (a big reason I got it), and it had the most room inside of any CUV (I was moving stuff between states, and I have a philosophical issue about SUVs). After spending about 2 months researching what car I wanted (Consumer Reports was the primary source), it took about 8 months to find it on line and drove to buy it after a brief test drive. I just drove my other vehicle, a Nissan Frontier while searching and waiting.
In 1998, a friend of mine asked my opinion of what to get as her old car was expiring. What did you have in mind?, I asked. A Camry? I told her they are boring and reliable, and like the Accord, as common as dirt. I had my Toy truck for 14 years and what did it in was rust, not need for repairs. She liked the reliable. She got several good years of service from it in upstate NY.
No excitement, but no surprizes either. I’m fine with that as a DD. It’ll likely need brakes next year, but it just flipped 80K, so it’s not unexpected.
“The 6 speed CVT”
For what it’s worth the Toyota 6spd automatic is a regular hydraulic/planetary style automatic with fixed ratios, nothing “continuously variable” about it.
How refreshing and it had to be said! I’ve read the car mags for several decades now and the snarky, smarmy style that so many reviewers have taken on is tiring, unhelpful and extremely tedious. It takes me about 15 minutes to breeze thru an issue, no matter which mag it is. If I didn’t didn’t receive yearly subscriptions for Christmas, they’d never darken my mailbox again.
And the Camry is a well-built, competent and competitive car. Always has been, without exception.
After having mail delivered subscriptions to “Road & Track” and “Car & Driver” for over 40 years (first by Dad and later by me) and “Automobile” magazine since it’s birth; I let ’em all lapse this year.
They just don’t capture my interest or match my automotive priorities anymore.
To be fair to the current crop of automotive journalists, the fact that pretty much *all* cars these days are reasonably reliable, safe, dynamically competent and well-put-together means that the remaining differentiators to report on are, in fact, the things one can pick up in a thirty-minute test drive: whether the primary controls feel okay or great, how nice the interior plastics are, how well the switchgear works, how you fit inside and whether you can see out… so one can hardly blame them for focusing on these details.
And, if we’re honest with ourselves, only Consumer Reports ever really addressed things like reliability in anything approaching a scientific approach. The buff books may have commented on how well their particular test car ran, but with no statistical significance.
The last, and probably foremost advantage of the old-school auto mags is that their decades-long investment in test equipment and methodology allows them to publish authoritative, objective performance data in a way that talented hobbyists simply cannot. It may be a moot point whether a family car can do 0-60 in 6.0 or 6.5 seconds, but a 10 or 20 foot difference in panic-stop distances could mean the difference between a stop and a crash.
I know I’m playing devil’s advocate here, and similarly lament the trend towards lazy writing that emphasizes newness and performance above all else. They definitely need to stop pretending that cars that do 0-60 in 7+ seconds are ‘slow’ when our roads and speed limits really haven’t changed, except for getting more crowded, since the ’90s when 0-60 in 7 seconds was ‘fast.’ But these publications still have value, and will continue to do so until hobbyist writers have the same access to objective data collection and a breadth of experience with all the latest models to keep their perspective up to date.
Camry is the safe choice for a mid sized car. It is comfortable and reliable and does everything well. It’s good enough that it’s the sensible choice to the point people will spend more or less to.get one. It’s way better than a gm car and it’s better than a Honda. And it don’t have failure prone turbos and horrid cvt. transmission. And it takes customers from Lincoln and Buick and Cadillac since they downsized and now are not aspirational. The styling is ok and up to date. Its not horrible looking though it could look.better. they need to steal some Kia and Chrysler designers.
Would be curious to hear what the CC crowd thinks of the new Regal Sportback in lower trims, or if anyone has driven one. I’m seeing them discounted to the $18-20k range in FWD/cloth trim spec. Seems like a lot of car with a lot of motor and the added utility of a 5 door liftback for the price of a Camry/Malibu/etc.
I’ll take a shot, even though I have not driven on or even looked at one in the flesh, which really encapsulates what I think my feeling and that of many others may be – what’s the point? I WAS somewhat enthusiastic about it initially which subsided the more I heard and thought about it, my main interest was the wagon. As far as the one you mention, besides the liftback I don’t really see anything else to recommend it.
1. Buick is a dead brand walking here in the US, especially in the non-SUV market.
2. It’s really an Opel and now owned by PSA and GM and its dealers likely could not give a rat’s ass about this car beyond likely being contractually obligated to purchase a certain number for a certain number of years. (I know you know the first part already, I’m speculating on the second part)
3. It’s a liftback but this world will view it as a sedan without a good “brand label” come resale time,
4. As a new purchase, how is it a more fiscally prudent purchase than a Camry (which I know you aren’t a big fan of) or an Accord? I think those few thousand in savings will become an inverted curve within a few years, i.e. in fie years it will be worth even less, the Camry will likely retain much of its value. If value and value retention is at all a consideration then a Base Outback is probably even better, especially where you live, and with your kid on the way. Do not underestimate the hassle factor of putting a small kid in the rear child seat on a low-ish car. It’s half the reason young parents switched out of coupes and sedans into SUV/CUV’s in my opinion.
5. Price and value are two different things. Just because the price is lower doesn’t mean the value is there.
6. You (just like me) don’t historically keep cars for their lifecycle, so a quickly depreciating one that is being discounted (not to meet a corporate goal as with Toyota but due to lack of demand) from the beginning is going to exact a harsh penalty down the road.
7. If you HAVE to have one of these, the wagon is the better bet. If only because it attempts to do the Allroad/Outback thing but without actually having the ride height increased. At least it has the image. But I’m sure the price is higher, in which case, Outback is the answer.
8. I, just like you, don’t have it in for Buick, I owned two of them, one in my 20’s and one in my 30’s. I liked them both, while aware I was well out of the norm both in my age group as well as in perceived social “status”… I bought both used, and neither were a particularly easy sale down the road even though neither had issues, eventually both sold to people specifically looking for what I had. I have no doubt that a Subaru or Toyota would have been an easier/quicker sale.
But if you do get one I’ll congratulate you on your car and the good deal you surely got. I’m the poster child for getting what I want (in a car) and the hell with everyone else’s opinion. It’s your money, spend it on what you want. 🙂
I replied earlier, in response to one of Geelongvic’s comments, but after going through all the comments, I wanted to make one more observation. For context, I live in the US, just north of 60 years old, bought my first car 43 years ago, have owned five Toyota’s over 25 years, more than any other make (and have a 2016 now), and have travelled a fair amount in the US, Europe and Asia with the associated exposure to rentals, taxis, colleagues’ or hosts’ cars, etc. Yet, i have driven only two Camries, my in-laws’ 1985 on our honeymoon, and my sister’s 2012 rental for about 6 blocks. In addition, I have been a passenger in no more than two or three other Camries, mostly in Taiwan, though just last week in a (harsh-riding) Uber here in my hometown.
As far as I can remember, we’ve never had any close friends or even neighbors who owned Camries. Yeah, I can distinguish the first 3 or 4 generations, then they all become indistinguishable. And, other than my Taiwan experience, I’ve always thought of the Camry as an American phenomenon. So, a long-winded way of saying that I’m just amazed by the experience and knowledge, and passion, I’ve seen here today, from America and Russia and Australia, on a car which has really passed me by. Thanks, CC’ers!
Petrichor, your opening statements to this piece exactly echo my own thoughts. You have very eloquently expressed something I have come to understand over recent years, yet our approaches to the subject have come from almost opposing angles.
I love my mother’s 06 Corolla. After 30 years of never having owned a new or near-new car (except a girlfriend’s 3-year old Golf), mum’s car is a revelation. I simply cannot fault it. Seating position, acceleration, reliability – everything.
My point of reference is pre-83 cars, which is what I’ve personally owned sometimes as daily drivers, and years of reading classic cars magazines. Your point of reference is other recent new cars as same, and the contemporary review press.
And yet you have captured the essence of my opinion – in that the new car as a functioning device is an infinitely better driver, and that the degrees between every model on the road today are minimal.
Shout out to JP Cavanaugh. He’s been writing here since the early days, and still manages to find something to comment on for almost every article; funny, pithy, informative or a genuine question. Sometimes it’s as if he and Jason Shafer are our Waldorf and Statler. (Does that make Paul Kermit?) There are many more who read than comment here on CC, and it’s really nice to hear from them even if irregularly.
Welcome Petrichor, looking forward to more articles and don’t be shy of the comments section too.
Send the blue guy his money, Jason. He’s earned it.
Yes, I have turned into either Statler or Waldorf – especially at work, which is why I haven’t been commenting as much the last months.
Here’s your money, you truly earned it.
What an incredible debut article! And reading through the comments made me re-appreciate the plethora of talent on this site and Paul for feeding this civil monster for so many years.
I love Camrys. I recommend them all the time to people who need a roomy, reliable sedan that’ll ease your journey with minimal fuss. Even my BIL’s ’98 4 cyl LE with 300k is fun to toss around if you set your expectation right. There’s no shame in basic competence. 60 years ago, no one but VW made a car this basically reliable. Boring, unstylish, but reliable.
I started subscribing to Car & Driver when I was 12, and for the next 40 years would break into a sweat if my issue was a day or two late. I read every page and article voraciously. Then came the Internet.
For the last 15+ years it’s been Autoextremist, TTAC and CC, with CR and TrueDelta for data. The other sites out there irritate me since I’ve outgrown my hooning and adolescent attitude. I recently took up Hemmings, which I really enjoy the design articles.
Once again, great debut!
By the way, here is my cousins 2003 Camry in Biysk, Russia. Recently crested 1million kilometers on the clock, the most amazing thing is that all of those miles were ran up on local Siberian roads, which is like a 5x multiplier on wear and tear considering the -40c cold starts in the winter and the totally bombed out local roads.