Years ago, before SUV’s and crossovers took over the automotive landscape, the body-on-frame rear wheel drive sedan ruled the roads for families on the go. In my driveway, I have two prime examples – a 1998 Ford Crown Victoria LX, and a 1996 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. I love them both, but for different reasons.
First, a little family automotive history – my Dad had a limousine business in Houston Texas in this era, so I grew up around Broughams & Town Cars – his daily driver was a 1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series, complete with bordello red leather interior. However, his two favorite limos were a black 1987 Brougham named Igor and a white 1990 Brougham with the 350 Chevy TBI. The ’90 Brougham was a favorite among the drivers for being peppier in Houston traffic than the 5.0 Town Cars, or the anemic 307 Olds in the 87 Caddy. The transmissions were a weak point on these Caddy limos, so much so that Dad became a pro at swapping them out when needed and could do so in about an hour and a half (and he kept a spare on hand at all times).
Being around these cars all my life, it’s no wonder I grew to love the land yachts that my contemporaries hated. Cadillacs are a family tradition – here is my Dad in front of Pap’s ’58 Sedan deVille in 1963.
And here’s me behind the wheel of his ’74 Sedan deVille around the same age in.
So it was no surprise that when I turned 17 in February 2005 that Pap gave me his 1984 Sedan deVille – the sly fox planned it out and purchased a 96 Deville a few months prior so he would have an excuse to give me the 84. He hated the gutless HT4100, and figured it would keep me from getting too many speeding tickets (he was wrong on that part sadly). Even his 83 Olds 98 Regency with the 307 had more oomph that the Caddy, he would constantly remark – but Pennsylvania winters ate away at the body, and the closest thing he could find in good shape was the 84 SdV.
Pap never owned a Ford – his fleet was the garage queen 74 SdV, the ’76 Chevy truck for trips to the junkyard (the only vehicle he ever owned new), an ’86 Jeep Cherokee for winter use, the ’87 Cutlass Ciera to go back and forth to work, and the ’84 SdV for Sunday drives or long trips.
As to how I now own these cars? When my Dad passed on in 2016, I inherited his 2006 Ram 3500 diesel – not exactly a great commuter vehicle for a radio guy like me, as well as the fact that the car never felt like it would be mine. So I sold it, and started the search for a 1991-1992 Brougham – I love the squared off look and the interior of that era, as well as the TBI 5.7/5.0 motor that could be had vs the 307 Olds. For about a year, I owned a 1991 Brougham d’Elegance, and I can’t help but draw comparisons between it and my 96 Fleetwood.
The interior in the 96 is roomier, but the 91 was better put together – much less plastic, and it just felt nicer to the touch. About the only improvement interior wise are the seats – MUCH better for long road trips with the split bench design and articulating head rests. Sadly, the ‘91 deteriorated beyond my means to fix it working part time and going to college. But prices for these cars, as well as the availability, were out of my price range for anything that wasn’t on its last legs.
So I widened my search into other rear drive sedans, and found a 98 Crown Victoria LX with under 100k miles on it for a price I could afford. It was a Georgia car, and the man was selling it for his mother in law who couldn’t drive anymore. This car is an oddball in that it is a VERY optioned Vic – dual power seats, leather, digital dash, Electronic Automatic Climate Control, upgraded stereo, dual exhaust, and the lattice lace aluminum wheels. Her husband must have checked off almost every option on the order form. It wasn’t a Cadillac Brougham, but it was almost as nice as my Dad’s 93 Town Car – the Town Car having more fake wood trim and rear reading lights among other things.
Fast forward a few months, and I get a message on Facebook from a friend of mine who is looking dispose of her late husband’s 1996 Fleetwood Brougham to someone who would love the car. Now, this car was not in great condition, but I agreed to take it off her hands. I arranged to head from Eastern NC to Brooklyn NY and fetch the car…and I almost didn’t take it home. It was worse in person than in the pictures I received, ran rough, the hood release cable broke on me after the first pull, and it had a weak battery during a March cold snap. Amazingly it didn’t leave me stranded on the 8 hour drive from New Jersey to ENC, but there were a few close calls where it was very slow to turn over. My friends husband did not treat the car horribly, but he did not do much preventative maintenance. Let’s call it “benign neglect” – the passenger seat recliner is broken, the power antenna doesn’t work, and numerous other little things require attention as well.
I had to wait until recently to do much work on it – plugs and wires were on the list, as well as the alternator and battery. And GM’s OptiSpark distributor required replacing as it was causing misfires – it is the Achilles Heel of this motor, and one of the reasons I wish it was a 93 with the L05 motor instead. The air conditioning system also needed a new hose on the high pressure side – a necessity for a triple black vehicle in the Carolina summertime.
The Crown Vic by comparison, has only needed plugs, tires, and coil packs to keep it running in tip top shape so far. Everything option works perfectly, even the sometimes troublesome EATC. The air ride compressor still keeping on ticking, and the air bags in the rear never sag. To keep it nice and rust free, I had it undercoated as soon as possible. Being a Georgia car, it had never seen road salt – unlike most of my other vehicles from PA/NJ/NY/MA, and I had never seen an underbody so clean!
Why am I comparing these two vehicles to one another? Because they are both the last rear drive body on frame examples from GM and Ford, and appealed to the same demographics (older people looking for luxury). From the dealer, the Fleetwood Brougham had a $39k sticker price – not cheap then, or now. The Crown Vic LX started at $23,335 – so in reality, what did another sixteen grand get you?
More rear leg room, rear vanity mirrors, rear cup holders, auto trunk pulldown, GM’s handy VigiLight, and another 40 or so ponies under the hood. Aside from that, the Vic matches the features on the Caddy – and the handy door keypad is something I find myself using more than I thought. Not to mention the tighter steering, less wallow in the corners, and everything just feels better built or more thought out on the Crown Vic. Even with less horses and off the line torque, I would take the Modular 4.6 over the LT1 – the motor just goes and goes with regular servicing, and doesn’t have any Rube Goldberg contraptions like OptiSpark to deal with.
In 1988, MotorWeek compared the TownCar to the Brougham (and a Deville Touring Sedan against the new Continental) as to which made the best highway cruiser. They came to the same basic conclusion I did – the smoother ride of the Caddy couldn’t be outweighed by the better handling of the Town Car. The ’96 Fleetwood is a vast improvement powertrain wise, but GM didn’t sweat the details enough and the interior (seats aside) feels like a gussied up Caprice. Living with the Crown Vic day to day is much easier – a friend of mine borrowed the Caddy for a day, and returned it saying it was too much car (and the passenger window off its track). The Fleetwood has lots of overhang, the trunk isn’t as useful as the Vic, and the quality was below that of my same year Sedan Deville that I inherited from Pap.
But there is still something about the Fleetwood that makes me smile when I’m behind the wheel, a feeling that I don’t get with the Crown Vic. The left hand side of my brain goes for the reliability, the slightly better gas mileage, as well as the lower cost of ownership that was the main reason I got the Ford in the first place. But the Caddy appeals to the right brain side – the lower/longer/wider styling, comfier seats, and the fake woodgrain slathered all over the interior tickle my Brougham fancy. Not to mention the instant torque and throaty roar of the LT1 – it reminds me of the 74 Sedan deVille, and my Pap telling me to stand on the gas when I wondered how powerful that 500 V8 really was under the hood. I suppose that is the biggest reason I still love the car despite all its faults (and repair bills) – it really is the last Classic Cadillac, and a very strong tie to my childhood spend under the hood of so many other Cadillacs.
I could picture my Dad, my Pap, or my Great Grandfather Toss behind the wheel cruising around Central Pennsylvania to Knobles Grove in a Fleetwood. While the Ford is nice, it feels like a upsized size Taurus rather than an old school luxury car. I guess that’s why GM had to pull the plug on these B & D bodies – cops loved the Caprice, and coachbuilders loved the Fleetwood, but not too many consumers were putting them and their Roadmaster cousin in garages. Tastes change, and these vehicles didn’t – plus, GM made a ton more selling Tahoes and Suburbans as SUV craze got into full swing.
The irony is that as I write this, my Fleetwood is back in the shop – for an intake manifold leak, and EVAP issues. So the Ford has been pressed back into full time service – and while it’s nice to spend a little bit less in gas, I miss the Caddy. I have been wronged by these cars before – transmissions, electrical issues, you name it. But I keep going back to The Standard of the World, being seduced by the smooth ride, tail fins, and the ice cold AC blasting.
“one of the reasons I wish it was a 93 with the L05 motor instead.”
Amen – people always look at me funny when I tell them I’d rather have the L05 350 V8 than the LT1. Not just Optispark but the LT1 was built to rev, a little out of character for the Fleetwood, Roadmaster, and Caprice.
Does anybody know if the 4.3 V8 “Baby LT1” has the Optispark? Dad has one in his Caprice and I am very covetous of that car.
When it comes to Crown Vics of that era I’d love an LX Sport or a rare Grand Marquis LSE.
yes the baby 4.3 V8 does have Optispark. Just make sure that you cover the vent hole somehow to allow it to vent but not get drowned when the waterpump fails.
Nice write up. I like the 91-96 Fleetwood. I agree about the Opti-crap dist setup. The big thing that kills them is that the unique water pump on these cars is almost directly over them and leaks on to them.
“but not too many consumers were putting them and their Roadmaster cousin in garages. Tastes change, and these vehicles didn’t – plus, GM made a ton more selling Tahoes and Suburbans as SUV craze got into full swing.”
I also think that the car that killed the Fleetwood off was the Deville of the same era. I have a 1995 Deville with the 4.9l V8. It was a one owner car and cost the lady that bought it $35,569. As prices for the Deville started at $33,000 and the Deville gave a similar “big car” ride as the Fleetwood, I can see lost of folks buying that instead. My Deville has 200hp and it is more then enough to motivate the car on the highway.
I even think that the 94-99 Deville had more room in it due to no drivetrain hump.
Still I would love a Roadmaster wagon
I’d pick the Ford any day of the week, but man, that Caddy has *presence.*
In the shot showing the front end the big black Caddy looks almost menacing. Like if I saw it pull up I’d be half expecting a couple of gangsters to get out and threaten to break my kneecaps. Perhaps kind of an unfortunate stereotype about that car.
+1. Different, distinctive, and could only be one brand.
Your CV is not that odd. It is a LX, HPP car with the digital dash and ETAC the last two options almost always seen together in CVs and GMs/
LX got you the leather dual power seats keyless entry and stereo upgrade along with a lot more sound deadening insulation.
HPP package which got you the wheels, dual exhaust, stiffer sway bars, quicker ratio in the steering box, higher rate slightly shorter front springs and air suspension with the higher rate springs, along with the different programing in the VAPS/RAS module that reduces the steering’s power assist at a more aggressive rate. (Best $600 ever spent)
And of course the ETAC and Digital dash which is not as common on a CV as it is on a GM but more common on the HPP cars or is it that HPP is more common on cars with the digital dash?
I’ve only seen a handful of other CV’s running around like mine (the 98 CV LX profiled on here could be it’s twin, minus the padded roof). Most examples near me are P71 cop cars, or GM’s – with the GM’s having a bit nicer interior with the glossy plastiwood and rear reading lamps. There is a GM around here with the HPP Package – only one of those I’ve seen lately.
Not growing up paying attention to these cars, I just assumed that most whale CV’s running around were base models or the auctioned off P71. Searching on Craigslist came up with a ton of P71’s, not too many LX’s. Thanks for the info!
HPP is not common on the GMs that is for sure.
You do have to keep in mind that what you see on craigslist is not indicative of the cars that were produced in the 2nd generation like yours. With the introduction of the 3rd generation it was no longer required for a Ford dealer to stock them and after 2005 they did not make a retail version. If a dealer wanted one, either for stock or a customer they had to do a special order. A special order is one that needs approval from someone at the MFG before it will be entered into the system.
Also since they dropped it from the retail order form the later cars are all either P71 or Fleet LX which are a car unto themselves. The Fleet LX was only an LX in the badge, leather and stereo. Gone were all the other things that the Retail LX received over the base model like that power passenger seat, as were most options including HPP and digital dash. They did get the 17″ LX-sport wheels standard though.
Crown Vics were thin in Ford dealerships even in the early to mid 90s. When my mother was looking for her 1993 a big dealer might have 2 or 3 of them (compared to 20-30 of a Taurus, Escort or Explorer). For some reason once the Aero version came out in 1992 all of the retail trade went on a stampede over to the Lincoln-Mercury dealer. In the mid 2000s I was walking through a dealer lot killing time after a service appointment and was surprised to find 3 LX Sports in a row. That was the first time I had seen a CV there in several years. I think that when that version failed to get traction Ford gave up on retail for the car.
A lot of interesting details on a car I ignored at the time.
My daily driver for the past year has been a ’95 Fleetwood Brougham, having taken over duties from my ’96 Buick Roadmaster, which I passed on to my sister in law, who was in need of a car. Having replaced the Opti-Spark in both of these LT1 powered beasts, I can say that other than the poor engineering decision to place the distributor directly beneath the water pump, it’s not an especially bad design. Water pump leaks are it’s achilles heel, as the water will leak directly onto and inside of the distributor, frying the two shutter wheels inside. I can understand what the engineers were thinking, driving the distributor directly off the front of the camshaft, rather than making a 90 degree turn with two beveled gears, as was the traditional method. Also, the double-lipped seal on the water pump driveshaft is tricky to install without rolling one of the lips over, but after consulting the experts on You Tube, I was able to accomplish the seal install successfully.
Anyway, after having replaced the Opti-Spark immediately after taking ownership of the 89k mile Brougham, I have racked up over 25k miles, the only other problem being an A/C compressor that froze up. I love my Brougham!
An interesting comparison. Who would have thought 50 years ago that a comparison between a 20 year old Cadillac and a 20 year old Ford would be so close?
I really wanted to like those Fleetwoods, but I just never could. The styling just never jelled for me and I have heard many descriptions of cheap interiors. In actuality the Town Car version of your CV might just scratch the itch of that right side of your brain. That Fleetwood is no more Cadillac than a 58 Packard was Packard. Add the upgraded interior and the Lincoln logos everywhere and you have the best of all worlds.
I will agree with Scoutdude – a Panther with the proper suspension (meaning one with sway bars) is a delight to drive. The ride is still quite smooth and quiet but the thing inspires confidence on twisty roads. My 93 CV LX was so equipped and was a night and day difference from my son’s floaty 89 MGM.
Note it certainly helps to have the 17 mm rear sway bar that was standard on the early aeros but the 21mm in the HPP and towing package is where it is at.
I got to do a great comparison of how much difference those sway bars make. My son has the vary rare 01 GM LS Limited. The Limited package did get you the HPP wheels but not the RAS, dual exhaust and other goodies. So when I found an HPP car at the pick n pull I grabbed the sway bars from it. Being a steel sprung 01 meant it had no sway bar before. It made a night and day difference, though we did put new shocks on at the same time as one was done.
Definitely true regarding the Panthers with the Handling/Performance Package. Back in the early 2000s, when I used to travel for business regularly, I enjoyed renting Grand Marquis whenever I could. I loved the floaty, relaxing ride for the 2-days or so that I’ve have the rental car, but I knew it would get tiring after a while.
Later on, I drove a police-package-equipped Crown Victoria. The difference was amazing, and I immediately thought that a Crown Vic equipped with the police or HPP suspension would be a great long-term car. In my case, I was right — I bought a Crown Vic Sport LX 11 years ago and still love driving it. The HPP suspension is a great blend of comfort and handling; people who’ve never driven one would be surprised what a pleasant car it is to drive.
Police is a bit punishing as a daily driver if you compare it to a Full HPP car, a LX-Sport, RAS or base suspension version.
The LX-Sport is not a full HPP car, they use bags with the standard RAS rate and not the ones used on the HPP cars, Marauder, and TC with livery prep package.
But yes the HPP cars are a great comprimize and a night and day difference to the Fleet LX rental cars that so many use to judge the CV.
Thanks for rekindling my memory about the HPP and LX Sport differences. I think there was a difference in the rear sway bar as well, if I’m not mistaken. It’s been quite a while since I’ve thought about it.
When I bought our LX Sport, the dealer also had an LX w/ HPP suspension on the lot. I drove both, and to me they drove very similarly — enough for me to consider them equals. This was in the summer of 2007, and both cars were leftover ’06 models. Crown Vics didn’t exactly fly off the dealer lots back then, but they were excellent buys for folks who liked them.
I was killing time online a few years ago and a dealer down in Las Cruces NM had a used LX Sport model that someone had slapped a chrome luggage rack and fake convertible top on.
I considered it kind of a travesty.
You think luggage rack and vinyl roof on an LX Sport is bad? I’ve seen photos of a Marauder with a fake convertible roof. And not just any Marauder, but one of only 324 made in Deep Blue Pearl. 🙁
Funny you should mention a Town Car tickling my Brougham fancy – the YouTube Channel “Hoovies Garage” had a video contest with the winner getting his 1993 Town Car Signature Jack Nicklaus Edition – and I won!
So I’m waiting for that car to arrive from Kansas to see if it lives up to the memories of my Dad’s 93 Signature Series – it could have been why a die hard GM guy jumped ship given how the 93 Fleetwood interior was such a letdown from the 90-92’s.
Wow a Golden Bear, very rare, hope it is in good condition.
And make sure we get a story with full pictures once it makes its way to its new home.
Will do! Apparently the car hasn’t left Kansas yet, so I may be flying out there and driving it back. Here is the video of the car – the front seats need to be redone, but aside from that the interior looks ok. And it has the auto dim headlights!
Had to cringe seeing him standing on the roof and trunk as well as doing donuts with it. Bummer about the seats that is what attracts me the Golden Bear, those white, OK almost white, leather seats. Huge bonus that it still has the factory floor mats and they look in great shape, at least the passenger side one, as does the carpet on the hump.
Terrific article, and a nice insight on these cars. I agree with your points and I conclude the late model Panther chassis, especially a Grand Marquis or Crown Vic are probably the most undervalued used car available today. They have many virtues that you mention, excellent reliability, reasonably spacious, smooth and luxurious. They are really cheap these days, because no one wants them. They are considered old fashioned and geriatric. I’m okay with this, as it keeps the prices down for pristine examples.
It’s interesting your dad always kept a spare Caddy transmission on hand. I presume it was a THM 200R4. These had both Chevy and BOP bellhousing bolt patterns in one unit, so they would fit anything GM.
Yep – it was the 200R4, and they did not like the extra weight or stop and go traffic. The 200R4 in my 84 Sedan deVille had to be rebuilt at 80k, so I can attest to the lack of durability in these boxes. But they did shift smooth as silk when they were working right. He also kept a 700R4 on hand for the 90 Brougham.
My tastes in cars are not sporty in any way – my mom had a Miata as a kid, as well as a 3 series BMW stick coupe…and I hated riding in them. My 86 year old grandmother has a 2007 Grand Marquis LS that is slated to be mine when she stops driving – it really is a senior special, and has a cushier ride than my CV LX.
For bigger fleets it is not uncommon to keep a spare engine, trans, axle, and of course full set of brake parts, starter, alternator ect. Now for many of the bigger more expensive things it may be parts they harvested from a wreck. However in the livery and delivery business uptime is everything. So you just don’t have time to wait for parts. You want to get it back on the road for its next shift if not to finish the current shift.
Great comparison! I drive a 2006 Crown Vic LX Sport and I absolutely love it. It doesn’t ride like what most folks assume for a traditional RWD body-on-frame car — I find the handling responsive and taut enough for my needs, and it’s an enjoyable car to drive. That said, I often find myself gazing longingly at Cadillac Broughams or Buick Roadmasters — like you said, that right-side-of-the-brain tugging.
I find it ironic that you use the door keypad so often. I’ve actually never used mine, and despite repeated attempts, can never seem to memorize the keypad code. Glad to see someone uses theirs!
I use them regularly on all my cars that have had them. You can program a personal code to make it easy to remember. I’ve programed a “universal” code into all of ours so while my son and I remember each car’s stock code my wife and daughter use the universal.
Ditto. My ’14 MKS has a hidden keypad in the B-pillar. It’s a capacitative touch setup that lights up when you press that area. I believe the MKS was the first FoMoCo product to feature the hidden keypad, and it has since spread through the rest of the company’s products, with the exception of the F Series (because they’re trucks and people are likely to be wearing gloves) and the Mustang (which I don’t believe ever had it).
The keypad is useful when I want to go to the gym and lock my keys and wallet in the car. You set it via an interface within the MyLincoln Touch infotainment system, too. No fiddling with weird button commands. I set my own code, which my best friend also knows. I still have the factory code, though; it was on the dealer inventory key tag that came with the car since it was a Ford / Lincoln dealership. I’m glad Ford has kept the keypad.
I’ve also seen dealer-accessory keypads for other manufacturers, like Nissan, which basically work off of the keyless entry system, and can be mounted anywhere outside the vehicle. I know someone with a Titan who has mounted his on the inside of the fuel door. Also, I believe the GM EV1 used a very similar keypad system mounted on the center console to actually start the car, which is fascinating, and making it the first true modern “keyless” car.
My ’13 Fusion also has the hidden touch keypad, which is a pretty neat trick. I had the more traditional kind on my Mark VIII and Marauder, and used both regularly–most commonly to, as you noted, leave keys/wallet locked in the car while I was at the gym or went for a run. It’s a very handy option that I’m surprised isn’t more common, especially now that it can be hidden behind any handy piece of black glass.
The pushbutton entry is one of the big draws of modern Ford/Lincoln cars. The more common remote keyfobs are NOT “keyless” in any way – you still need to carry and not lose the key fob, something that becomes problematic if you want to take a day trip to the beach and don’t want to leave your car keys (remote locater included) on the beach where it and your car can be easily stolen while you’re in the water, as I was this summer. The Ford setup lets you hide a ignition key inside the car and you can still lock up behind it.
I own a newer CV and you are correct, not as much presence as a Cadillac. But, as you are finding, these Fords (and the equivalent Mercurys) are fairly reliable.
I can’t speak for the previous 04 CVs, but the later cars drive decently for such big cars. Unfortunately, all of them have dowdy interior design and trim. My retired police car desperately needs a few bits of (even fake) wood on the dash and doors.
“benign Neglect-” that’s why I am leery of low mileage cars. For some reason, most people think that a low mileage car has been really well treated and maintained and is like new.
That is not always the case. Yes, sometimes you get a car from a Lake Wobegon type who put rubber mats under the car’s tyres in the garage and detailed it with cotton swabs. But a lot of the time:
Many parts on a car wear out with age rather than mileage. Mileage is actually good for a car because all the rubber parts stay hydrated and everything stays lubricated. Low speed -she only drove it to the grocery store and church on Sunday- driving lets a lot of moisture build up in places it shouldn’t and the owner probably isn’t giving all the electrics a good workout so things start to corrode. Builds up carbon too.
I also tend to be leery of a car that for whatever reason, someone just didn’t want to drive. Why not? Was it a lemon?
A car that isn’t driven often and for long distances tends to get neglected. That funny noise/smell becomes a yah I’ll get to it later problem whereas something that is depended upon for a daily driver gets fixed right away.
We tend to think older folks are the types who maintain things meticulously but as people get older, it becomes harder for them to do some of those things.
Yep! So many non-car folks assume a vehicle is “preserved” when not driven.
So many times heard of low mile cars with age worn parts giving out and owner says “but it has low miles?”.
I had similar with low mile car, just leaks, but still. I’d rather buy a maintained higher mile used car, then a flat spot tire driveway ornament.
Well some people just don’t have a need to drive that much. Eliminate the daily commute and take trips in planes and you can struggle to put on 100 miles per week. My mother in law puts about 5-7,000 miles on per year for the last few years, and she spreads it out over a car and her late husbands pickup. Yes most of them are abusive miles because they are to the local stores and rarely does she get on a freeway. So yeah they rarely get hot enough to properly boil out the oils and exhaust.
That being said I’m certainly going to be happy when I get her most recent purchase a 17 Mustang Convertible that I expect will rack up 2-3,000 miles per year. But I’ll make sure to do what I can to combat the signs of aging on it.
Of the two, I prefer the Fleetwood…I had a silver with burgundy interior ’93 with the L05. It got phenomenal highway mileage for a big car (26-27 mpg, 550+ mile cruising range) and those seats truly are comfortable. I think it set a record for “most passengers to fall asleep per trip” in all of my cars. But I have to agree that the interior was such a letdown over the ’80-’92 series. And the outside looks so right at certain angles and so bulbous and disproportionate at others. The car had presence compared to a late 90s Town Car, but it was still somewhat anonymous, blended in a bit better. That was clearly the point at the time it was being sold–to modernize a body that had looked the same for 15 years–but it just never felt quite nice enough inside to say “Cadillac”. Just felt like an old person’s car. Some say that about the 80s versions, but they had so many peaks and curves and fins and ornamentation that they just felt grander even if that grandeur was somewhat faked by then and housed a feeble drivetrain. You still *felt* like a big deal driving an 80s Brougham, but the 93-96 was just driving grandpa’s car. I have a ’75 Ninety Eight now, and it feels youthful in comparison to that Fleetwood, even though it was probably bought by the same target buyer. But that target buyer was 40 or 50 when he bought the Olds, and 75 when he bought that Fleetwood, probably his last car.
Despite the passive seatbelts I’d rather have a ’92 if I took the plunge again.
This is why guys fell in love with cars, going back to the 1910s; they’re just like women. That Ford is the girl next door, a dependable ride (double entendre intended) yet not much in the flash department…but she does everything that money honey from the big city Caddy could do. Almost. All your friends looked at Money Honey and drooled. (Of course, they all ended up with the Girls Next Door, and led contented lives.) You chose the Money Honey, and loved her no matter how much she cost you. As she got older, she became the Wide Ride, and yet you poured the money in to keep her content.
In a weird way, you and your friends all got what you wanted.
I’m content with MY Girl Next Door. 🙂
Certainly, it is interesting reading your thoughts. As a lover of big cars, I always wanted to learn firsthand just how different the B/D body GM cars and the Panther were, so, thanks for the read.
Certainly, the Optispark is a concern for the LT1, that’s why there are plenty of aftermarket items available to help with its problems. It’s still a concern, and that’s why I sometimes have the idea of older panther bodies, because that 4.6 can take anything and deal with it effectively. Of course, the allure of the torque and power in an LT1 is too hard to ignore. I also think price is a factor, trying to find this generation of Fleetwood is getting harder. Most of the really good examples are regularly selling for over ten grand on various websites, and the ones that are affordable that I’ve found are either high mileage beaters with over 100k, or have been converted into lowriders and the cost of removing those modifications outweighs the initial buy in price. You can still find panther bodies for ridiculously cheap, so cost is a factor.
But like you said, something about that Fleetwood just has presence. I understand if people are turned off by the styling, in some ways, I certainly agree with them. But, it’s certainly not something you see everyday. Conversely, I’ve never liked the 98 and up Panther bodies, they were too anonymous and the styling just turned me off. I viewed them in the same way some people view the Fleetwood, a big car with no sense of grace or fluidity in its appearance, its just big and that’s it. Also, while I think the interior in the Fleetwood is a bit on the cheap side (Same steering wheel as in my 98 Eldorado for starters), there does seem to be some semblance of old school feeling in it that’s hard to match. I’ve seen pictures of the insides of final year Town Cars, and for the price they had, the interior was a rip off. It epitomized the worst of Ford’s cost cutting measures and those interiors are too miserable for me to live with (and if you wish to know how I feel about ford interiors of that era, just ask me about my Dad’s 2000 Ford Taurus or my friends 04 Ford Expedition)
So, which one would I choose? Well, if we’re talking about these two cars, I would certainly not hesitate to say the Fleetwood. But, if you were to replace the Crown Vic with a 95-97 era Lincoln Town Car, then I would be genuinely stumped as to which one I would prefer to have. I don’t know, these cars are so similar, I honestly feel like its a choice that comes down more to personal preference than it does raw stats. I like both the Fleetwood and the generation of Town Car it competed against, and having never driven either, it would be hard to gauge which I would find “Better” in an objective sense. Certainly, it was nice to read your thoughts on the subject, and do the comparison that I’ve imagined of doing, but just don’t have the resources to.
“Also, while I think the interior in the Fleetwood is a bit on the cheap side (Same steering wheel as in my 98 Eldorado for starters)…”
I dunno. It’s pretty common for a steering wheel to be shared across a particular brand, or to be shared with both the least and most-expensive model. The four-spoke wheel in the Escalade is the same one in the XTS and the previous-gen, post-facelift (2013-later) SRX. And the airbag cover appears to be the same for both that wheel and the three-spoke used on the ATS, CTS and defunct ELR.
And at least the Cadillac brand has mostly had unique steering wheels within GM since the introduction of airbags. Notable exceptions were the first three generations of the Escalade (shared with its contemporary GMT-based sisters) and the final Deville/DTS (shared with the Impala, Monte Carlo and Lucerne).
Even Lexus does it. With the 2016 facelifts, the three-spoke they now have is shared across most of their range. The ES, IS, GS, RX and LX all have it; the NX and RC will probably get it when they are facelifted; the GX will probably get it when (if) it is redesigned.
A couple of years ago, when looking for replacement wheels, I considered a Crown Vic or Grand Marquis. Mostly because they had a good reputation for reliability from everything I saw online about them.
I never even considered a Fleetwood.
The tail lights on the mid 90’s Fleetwood just don’t scream Cadillac. From day one they always reminded me of a 75 Olds 98. The sad thing is that the 75 Olds 98 tail lights look more Cadillac like than those on the Fleetwood.
Hardly the “Standard of the World” anymore. I’d take the Ford, thanks.
I recently went from a 92 Vic to a 92 Roadmaster sedan. I agree with the author’s view that the GM offerings had more of that old-school charm. They also ride much better, and you could almost fall asleep on those seats in the Buick, which is a Limited with the hilarious overstuffed lazyboys.
I have been trying to completely restore my 1992 Cadillac deelegance brougham; it was my sons car until he passed away in 2013 ; it has been slow going as I have more work done when I get a few dollars extra but now is very dependable and my only car $8500 well spent and I know Brian approves
I enjoyed this COAL and how it reminds us of the intangibles can be what endears us to a car.
Here’s what I could do to refresh the memory of your Dad, just a bit.
I don’t really get the passionate love for the Crown Vics. I’ve driven a few. It’s a pretty good car suitable for taxis and police cars mainly because of durability and simplicity. However, there were cushmobiles that were in my opinion better and not as old-feeling.
For years, I drove an H-body 1994 Buick LeSabre inherited from my mom (low miles, immaculate condition). The 3800 was reasonably torquey and very smooth, plus the car got up to 30 mpg on the highway. The Buick was smaller, tidier, and lighter but gave up nothing in smoothness and quietness and was just about as roomy as the CV (only the trunk was slightly smaller). Though by no means a sport sedan in any measure, the car could be hustled in corners without too much protest, but still rode like a cloud on the interstate. Based on my experience, I’m not sure that FWD vs. RWD really matters for cars of this type. The car was pretty reliable and any mechanic could fix it, though I’ll admit getting to the spark plugs at the back of the V6 was a bear. At first, I balked at getting a “grandma car” after owning a few stickshift Hondas, but I learned to respect and even like the LeSabre. My car looked pretty much like the picture, except mine had the fake wire wheels. I’d take another H-body over a Panther any day.
As my college graduation present, I was given a 1994 Buick Park Ave Ultra to replace my 91 Brougham. The Supercharged 3800 never left me feeling low on power, and the car was great on the highway. However, being a 18 yeaer old car, it did have issues – the PCM needed to be replaced, harmonic balancer, trunk pulldown motor, and the seat heaters shorted out so I had to disconnect them. But I still loved that car, and even with all those little problems it still oozed Buick quality.
The Vic is no comparison to the Park Ave/LeSabre as far as ride goes, but at the time I was looking I couldn’t find a decent example in my price range that wasn’t ragged to hell.
I still regret selling that car, but at the time it made sense. Here it is the day I bought it in 2011.
I have only driven my 2004 LeSabre once since getting it from my father. Nice smooth ride it does well. It does seem a little bouncy to me so I don’t know if the struts are going or that is how the car is. Definitely quiet inside and so a great car for long hauls. For short hauls I’d stick with my 2004 Focus stick with the bigger four. It easily out hustles the LeSabre and would leave it shaking in it’s boots on curves and emergency maneuvers. Good for the daily shootout during rush hour full of manics.
Speaking of emergency maneuvers I just drove someone’s 2017 Honda Civic. Wow, that car is terrible in emergency maneuvers as I always put a car through that the first time I drive it to learn strengths and weaknesses.
I’m a Ford guy so naturally I would go with the Crown Vic for every day use. You’re right about easier to maintain and better handling.
However, if a Brougham was in the picture it would have to be a 1991. One late night on Highway 5, in the Central Valley, I was at a table eating in In-N-Out. Of in the dark parking lot my eyes were attracted by this large chrome bumper pulling into the lot. One doesn’t see large chrome bumpers a lot so I knew it was older.
My wife was asking what I was paying so much attention to. You know how that goes. The car pulled right up front and it was a metallic blue Caddy which is all I knew at the time. That car had PRESENCE and I was smitten. I approached the owner in the line to ask about the car and give him my compliments. It was a 91 Brougham with only 70,000 miles and this was 2016. He was driving it from Washington down to his second house in Phoenix. Must have been a smooth ride as compared to mine in a Mazda 626.
I have spent a year looking for one of that year precisely for long drives. Have yet to figure out a way to hide it from the wife, as I am sure she would take you know what off, with another car in the stable. Heck, I am already hiding a 2004 LeSabre in my father’s garage with the cover story that it is still his car. Now if there were ingrained mechanical issues I would most likely stay away.
My son had a fully loaded Crown Vic ex-detective car in forest green, it was ok for power and handling, but killed my back on the one long trip (six-way powers seats in leather) and the damned thing blew three plugs in a short time. Also know the owner of a cab company with 31 cabs, mostly Crown Vic because it’s what he can get, he said it’s a constant problem on them, blowing out plugs all the time. That kept me from considering anything but a four cam (which I’ve heard don’t blow plugs)
Next was a ex-detective 95 Caprice that was trimmed like an SS, with a pumped LT-1, in gunmetal blue. It blew his CV into the weeds and was supremely comfortable, used on trips all over the west with no back problems.
Nathan was trying to find the most comfortable car for me with my screwed back and other problems. Next, he tried a Lincoln Mark VIII coupe, in gunmetal blue, full receipts for complete mechanical rebuild and air suspension total redo. All three of these cars were new condition inside and out, The Mark was a bit faster than the Caprice at top end (over 155 mph) but little thing kept creeping up. Instead of take it on a long trip, Nathan bought a 2003 Mustang convertible to go to WPC meet in Tacoma. He sold the Mark at a loss at $1600, and the new owner reports no problems. My aunt died at 97, and her 95 Cadillac Fleetwood , bought new, was stunning in silver with padded roof and burgundy velour interior was sold. My son and I delivered it. The trip was wonderful in the Cad, high speeds, very decent handling (my aunt had HD sway bars, and shocks.installed. So now he’s looking for another Caprice, I don’t need another car, but if a Fleetwood comes along,…maybe
Great post. I was in a similar situation 6 years ago. I was a child of the 80s and 90s and my parents always had fwd domestics and HATED the rwd v8 full size sedans. When it was time to replace my Buick regal for my young family I had a limited budget and wanted to experience bof rwd before they were gone forever. I was gonna go 94-96 b body or panther (production was about to end) and it was the right brain lt1 American nostalgamobile roadmaster wagon vs the proven track record of reliability and better mpg grand marquis. I ended up going grand marquis for the reliability safety and better mpg and it’s given me 6 great years of family hauling, saw us 1-3 kids, for 4 years it was our primary family car that we took everywhere. Sadly it’s on it’s way out the door…too many little issues, 16 years old now, not worth fixing,,,it’s gonna get replaced soon. I am gonna miss it.
But I won’t be getting another panther. My rule of car shopping is never buy the same car twice. You get more automotive experience and fun that way. It’ll prob be replaced with a new 2.0 accord
And you’re correct it drives exactly like a big taurus.
My brother owns a 2003 P71 CV, which he uses extensively in his job as a news photographer.
His example is mostly of a stock unmarked car but he has it outfitted with several police scanners. He replaced a 2008 Mazda3 with it and I didn’t think he would warm up to it but he is in love with the car because it allows him to discreetly arrive at crime scenes to film and also because most drivers on the road move out of his way.
It is a crude vehicle (the taxi-spec front seats are torture on the long distance trips I’ve gone on) but he impressed me with its versatility by swapping in a black leather interior using bits from a Town Car and Grand Marquis, which surprises everyone who gets inside.
I have been hard pressed to find a car that rode as well as my 98 deville, then front and rear bushings began to fail causing it to shake horribly, requiring a bearing press to remove and install.
Then the power antenna cable.
Then the water pump.
Then the coolant reservoir tank.
Then the heater core.
Then the blower motor.
Then the dash display.
Then the water pump pulley system that is separate from the serpentine belt.
Then the smoke from the exhaust..
Then it overheated.
No idea what GM was thinking when they designed the northstar, because they basically over engineered an iconic brand and turned it into an unreliable overpriced pos.
I’m driving a 2007 crown vic now.
That handy door keypad to which you refer, is a feature I have come to appreciate on my Escape. I thought it a nonsense add-on for no use at all when I got it, but I have made use of it with some regularity over the years.
What happened to the ‘74!!!
My Dad had to sell it to make a mortgage payment after he lost his job at a radio station in Houston TX – being a sophomore in college, I had no money to buy it off of him.
Wish I still had that car 🙁
I have a white 96 Brougham I really want to find a decent mechanic to help me bring her back..
it reminds me of the 74 Sedan deVille, and my Pap telling me to stand on the gas when I wondered how powerful that 500 V8 really was under the hood.
No one pointed out the ’74 had the 472. Slackers!
His was a late ‘74, and came with the 500 from the factory. I vividly remember the emissions sticker under the hood saying it was a 500.