I’ve been saying it like a mantra for many years: EV’s are most compelling and effective as city cars, for all those short runs to the store, errands, work, etc.. Leave the big gas guzzler at home and use it for long trips, where it still has a decided advantage over EV’s. The Chinese have figured this out, and the GM/Wuling Hongguang Mini EV, which starts at some $4,500, is the world’s best selling EV as a consequence, handily outselling the Tesla Model 3 by almost 2:1.
I would snap up one of these in a heartbeat if it were available here. Built domestically at high volumes and with improved safety features, I’m pretty sure it could be sold for $10,000 or less. So how about just offering a Mini EV for free to any household under a certain income level instead of—or as an alternative to—subsidizing big and much more expensive EVs? “A Mini EV For Clunkers”.
Let’s keep in mind one very important fact: Even though EV’s have no tailpipe emissions, there’s still a lot of carbon being expended to make electricity. I don’t have the resources to do the math, but there’s no doubt that giving away—or drastically subsidizing—these would result in vastly reduced CO2 emissions than much larger and heavier EVs. Unless charged by 100% renewable sources, “fuel” consumption is still relevant, regardless of whether it’s gasoline or electricity. And then there’s the ease of parking, as a bonus.
The Wuling Mini EV weighs some 1500 lbs, seats four (rear seat flipped down in this picture), has a range of up to 110 miles, and a top speed of 62 mph, which I realize is not exactly going to endear it to our freeway warriors. OK; there’s plenty of folks who don’t spend a lot of time there, and it would probably be a fairly easy upgrade to get to 70 mph. Charge the 13.8 kWh battery anywhere with just a 110 V outlet.
It does have air conditioning, but bring your own screen. It’s about as basic as an old-school VW Beetle, which it rather reminds me of.
Just the thing for the quick run to the store.
In China it’s available in a wide range of customizing options.
Express yourself! That includes options like this fake-fur interior with twinkling stars embedded in the headliner. As you can see, it’s actually quite roomy, thanks to its tall and boxy dimensions.
PS by Chris Cieslak
Here’s the other end of GM’s EV spectrum: the 9,055 pound Hummer EV. That’s not a typo. It’s going to take a huge 200 kWh battery, and although GM has so far said its range will be “up to 350 miles”, I suspect it will be closer to 300 EPA certified range. That’s the price of accelerating almost 5 tons from 0-60 in three seconds.
If you make the calculations, based on a national average of CO2 created in electricity generation, the Hummer EV is still going to be able to “roll coal” quite effectively, at the rate of some 300 grams of CO2 per mile. That’s only some 10-15% better than a gas-powered Ford F150 (363 grams). Is this really progress? Folks driving 10,000 lb behemoths and feeling smug about it?
I get why GM is building the Hummer EV and not the Mini EV: profits come first, for corporations. But if there’s going to be a concerted effort to reduce CO emissions, we also need to stop pretending that the American love of bigness is going to be a magic solution in the form of really big EVs. It’s going to be decades before our electricity is carbon-free. In the meantime, there are other solutions to expedite the way.
An American Mini-EV is worth considering. But then that’s just me, and I know my feelings on the subject of little cars in our big-loving country may well just be a (exhaust) pipe dream.
I confess to a certain amount of EV envy. The idea of a reasonably sized EV for local runs plus a conventional ICE or hybrid vehicle for longer distances makes a lot of sense.
Could I roll in a Wuling Mini EV? Possibly. The orange + and – symbols on the pedals are a hoot. It’d add a little extra fun to those PBR runs! 😉
That’s already available as a plug-in hybrid, offered now by various manufacturers.
I fully agree. I use my BMW 330e plug-in hybrid in electric mode in town (Rome, Italy) and in hybrid mode elsewhere. With 15-22 miles electric range, I really never need gas in town. And my car is an old generation plug-in hybrid. Nowadays you can have much better choices.
That looks great, to me. Unfortunately a couple of American factors would be speed bumps if not roadblocks. Obesity is the first elephant in the room. The second is the, currently legitimate, concern with being hit by a massive vehicle while piloting something petite. Even just driving a small vehicle seems to raise the ire of many in giant trucks, for some reason. I do think a small, tall SUV esque electric could gain traction, as long as it has 8 cupholders that can fit big gulps.
Here in the Twin Cities, electric scooters are everywhere, mostly on sidewalks where they are not supposed to be. I could see something like this as a car share option for short, urban commutes on our 25mph streets.
I do agree that this could be a great solution for many people though a slightly higher top speed would be good. I do wonder what the range is at that top speed.
However getting Americans to buy something like this seems unlikely.
It is interesting because there was a time when people often had a “commuter car” and a family truckster.
The first person I knew who subscribed to that thought long before the energy crisis was my Uncle. Back in the 60’s he had a Cadillac and a Beetle. The Caddy was his baby but it stayed home with my aunt M-F while the Beetle did commuter duty. The Caddy gave way to an Olds and after that went with my Aunt in the divorce an Eldorado joined the Beetle.
In the aftermath of the first and second energy crisis in my neighborhood it was very common to have a small commuter car paired with a family truckster.
Some parings from my neighborhood; Pinto/Caprice Wagon, B-210/245/Clubwagon, Civic/Malibu Wagon. Corolla/LTD Wagon.
But now it is more likely to find a 1/2 ton sedan for Dad and a 1/2 ton Wagon for Mom.
We drive a Ford CMax locally and an F150 for long hauls towing our camper. The CMax will be replaced with an electric once our condo garage is equiped with EV chargers.
There are still some of us that subscribe to the thought of having a small vehicle/big vehicle and using the one that best suits the needs at that time, but it is much less common than it was back in the 70’s and 80’s.
I agree it is much less common. That was roughly 45 years ago and those owners are mainly over 70 now. The new generations, equal to their age 45 years ago, don’t see things that way and seem to prefer going bigger which is a complete flip flop. I guess $4/gallon gas isn’t considered expensive but from my 67 year old perspective it is very much high and alters my driving accordingly. I make less trips and make every trip count by combining. On the way to work, hit the hardware store, the post office, and the bank before the office at 10 am and grocery store on the way home 1.5 miles from home.
I for one certainly have concerns over quality and durability; given the lack thereof of the scores of Chinese manufactured scooters/dirtbikes/atvs/trikes that have flooded the US market in the last decade or so.
The powersports vehicles are on thing, as they’re simply cheap toys and not primary transportation, but a daily driven vehicle needs to be much more robust if it’s to be used as a daily commuter.
I fear a lot of people would buy these simply due to it being a brand new car with a low price, only to have it break down on them in a short time, like the aforementioned scooters and such, again, leading to a flooded used market, and leaving lower income persons in debt.
They could call it the Yu-Go!
For me, the issue is not the smallness of the car, it is sharing the road with 9k pound Hummers driving at 50 mph or more, while their drivers play on the screens.
These could be restricted to 25 mph or so, and be limited to their own local commuter paths, once one leaves the immediate neighborhood. Save the main arteries and interstates for the big stuff.
You could conversely limit the big stuff to the main arteries and interstates. Have the single occupant big-yacht cars trucks and cars anchor offshore of the residential district and city-centers in a big-car marina and take the dinghy in. True commercial vehicles with a legitimate purpose or ones used to a certain percentage of capability excluded of course. Kind of how carpool lanes work.
Why artificially limit the small cars to a lower speed than they are capable of? How does that differ from motorcycles and bicycles and the guy in the 1960 Beetle?
Limit to 25 because then the safety features and higher speed vehicle dynamics don’t need to be nearly as robust. All sorts of elements such as braking capacity can be minimized, and the need for airbags can be eliminated with slower speeds. Smaller tires and fewer resources needed for the smaller, lighter cars. If they are for short journeys, the lower speed limits are not much of a time burden. There is also a certain pleasant “zen” factor to driving more slowly, and not immersing oneself in an environment where you and all the vehicles around you are hurtling at top speed.
As an ex-race driver (in a big hurry at the wheel), and a person fond of long journeys in big, powerful vehicles, there is still room for slower paced, shorter trips, in an absolute minimum of resources required to make the trips comfortable and safe. The right equipment and driving environment for the job at hand.
One breaks the cycle of “unsafe” small cars by creating an environment and performance envelope where the cars can be operated safely, rather than trying to “toughen them up” for high speeds and accidents with heavier vehicles, as was done with the Smart car. Even the Smart car couldn’t fully defy physics, with small crush zones and lighter overall vehicle weight. They were/are nice little cars. They are simply asked to play in a rough, dangerous, high speed sandbox.
Dutch, my one and only free junket as (briefly) an accredited journalist was a 2-day driving intro to the Smart4Two, in the SF Bay Area. On the last morning I drove my partner and me on the 280 from San Jose to the Ferry Building in SF, traveling at 70-80 most of the way in heavy big-truck traffic. I may have had the advantage of practice, here, as my first car was a Fiat 500, and two of the others were BMC Minis … the last of which I drove from Northern CA to Nashville.
As long as the car is sufficiently agile and the windows large enough, I feel safer in a small car than a big one, frankly. There have been times when if my car were bigger and heavier we would not have avoided an accident.
Up north freeways are referred to by number only. You say “280” or “101” or “580”. “The” is not used north of about Bakersfield. Calling a freeway “The 101” or “The 10” or “The 5” is strictly a Southern California thing. It’s a small but important distinction that helps give some useful insight into someone’s origins. Failure to recognize the difference is a small red flag but usually means that someone is from Southern California, a tourist, a non-native, an outsider or just a clueless goob.
I’m in favor of banning the 4-1/2 ton Hummers from the road. And any truck with a lift kit. That’s an excellent place to start.
I’m in favor of actually, effectively banning vehicular cell phone use, making drivers license tests coast to coast much more difficult, and raising the driving age to at least 18. Lets eliminate the worst drivers on the road (as we should be doing), whether they be a moron driving a tank or a texter driving mommies Prius. The human factor is the biggest killer in auto accidents, and I believe making the rest of you much better drivers and therefore reducing the accident rate is the answer.
Only technology I’d gladly like to see in cars are mobile phone jammers.
The problem I see with that, is that it leaves you with a “car” that can only be used to cruise in your very local neighborhood, thus limiting it to very small communities where golf carts are often the chosen mode for puddle jumping to the neighbor’s house or country club.
I have been in a couple of places where I could and did enjoy the zen of a low speed drive through the ‘hood, and could do so with a couple of electric golf carts or a series of gasoline or diesel John Deere Gators (the latter two leaving progressively more “zen” on the table). I kept encountering times when I needed to puddle jump to a store or restaurant, but had to return to base for a vehicle that was able to get up to and hold 45mph for the one to three miles into town. By and by, it just became easier to leave the NEV/LSV’s parked and idle around in a full size vehicle if there was any chance I’d have go somewhere off base during my shift.
EDIT: This seems to have dropped down far below my reply to Dutch 1960. Still don’t quite got the hang of this site :/. TC
The Chinese-built Buick Envision that is sold here seems to do just fine. As did the Honda Fits that were built over there and sold in Canada I believe.
You can build to a low price point or to a high quality point. Just pick one. The high quality point seems to still be competitive price-wise.
Your generalizations are just that. The Chinese know how to make everything from cheap stuff to very expensive high-end stuff.
I did say “Built domestically”. If there’s going to be a major government incentive, that’s a necessity. Hence my target $10k price.
As someone who has used a 150cc Chinese scooter (Jinan Qingqi) for three years running, there is nothing wrong with Chinese built vehicles – as long as the standard of build is high enough. The Chinese are capable of building quality, and they’re capable of building cheap. It all depends on what the customer is willing to pay for.
The big problem with Americans is that they want Chinese products that are priced cheap, but then bitch if they’re not quality. Go a step or two up in the price structure, and then you’re getting something worthwhile.
Giving every low-income commuter a free one every two years would cost less than subsidizing mass transit. I think the biggest problem for these cars would be domestic manufacturers lobbying against dropping safety requirements. The margin on strippo electric cars is just too small and they’d fight like hell to keep their margins, using safety as their sledgehammer. Otherwise they’d have to face a raft of low-cost startups, both here and abroad.
“domestic manufacturers lobbying against dropping safety requirements”
Oh, how the world turns…
“Bring your own screen” would be a feature in itself for some folks here.
Several things will prove this is a pipe dream.
First thing is small and efficient vehicle always make sense even it is powered with internal combustion engine. I have been saying majority of cars in US used for daily routine can be around 100 hps with the size of 1992 Corolla. Instead we see now F150 is most popular vehicles for over 2 decades.
Second is the idea of Free everything is fundamentally wrong. Economic model will not work if no price to build in make profit. I know free thing is in vogue like BMI, basic minimum income. No one asks in loud who will pay for them. More, free EV like this one will destroy the US EV sector immediately.
Third is anything from China is political radioactive. So this one will never happen. Not to mention both US and China are marching to have arm conflict in next decade, if not happening sooner. Economic and diplomatic decoupling already took place.
Last thing is Wurling could put a larger battery set, 13.6 KWH is not much juice.
Maybe it should be approached like the EU did with the incentives that have made the small EV market take off there. The incentives that made the Renault Zoe practically free for a lot of people worked as planned. If you make the incentives so that only people with money can take advantage, then only expensive models get sold, and to well off people. If, however, you make it so that cheaper models get incented to people of less means, then smaller, cheaper EVs get into the market. And a big point of adoption is getting the product out and used by people, so that it becomes ordinary and normal. GM could pitch this approach, and probably should, as it would have the best chance of importing these little ones from China and selling them via their established dealerships here in the USA. They would have the advantage over any new brand, or any other foreign brand, and it would make sense. But making sense never seems to be a business model that the car companies work by…
This car seems awfully like the bleak dystopian EVs Tesla set out and proved didn’t have to be the dull future of personal transport. The big model S proved to everyone you can actually have a nicely styled, well equipped and fast EV that actually appeals to more than just hardcore environmentalists, and subsequent more affordable follow ups proved even more successful.
Just because people have been more acclimated to the EV concept doesn’t mean the Citicar concept is finally due for its day to shine, Smarts and IQs already existed and sold mediocrely despite how logical they are for city use. City people simply don’t need or want cars of any size, the whole concept of a dense city is to function for its inhabitants with walkable access to goods and nearby access to mass transit, now more than ever with Uber and Lyft, home delivery, and working from home in many cases, what case do cars like these cars really have now a days in US cities?
I see the seeds of automotive partisanship may already be sprouting with the notion of a Hummer EV becoming reality. The former public enemy #1 of environmentalism from the corporation that “killed the electric car” now joins ranks with Tesla, Leafs and Pruii and now suddenly being an EV isn’t enough “Hummers are still wasteful!!!”
Yeah, minus the fancy paint, these things look a lot like the “Obamamobiles” that the conservatives back in 2008 were claiming the government would force us into at gunpoint after taking away our pickups and SUVs if he won the election.
Funny how that came to pass . . . . . . .
You raise a good point. On first blush I thought something like this would be perfect for city people, but freedom from ANY automobile ownership is exactly why many city people live there. They love walking, biking and taking public transportation and rent typical large vehicles for vacations or forays into the country. I sure they love this car, but just don’t need one. As mediocre sales of the Smart and other mini cars can attest, there simply isn’t much market for one.
Seems like an idea that’s coming. I have long thought that we should have small city cars, not allowed on freeways so they don’t need to be built to withstand a 70mph crash. Those electric scooters have been a real boon to low income folks, since they don’t need registration or insurance.
But I must wonder, how well are people going to treat a little car they got for free? I have visions of hordes of crashed & mistreated Wulings littering the landscape. Although I could just be feeling cynical today, the police were just at my door to tell me the motorcycle I sold two weeks ago was found crashed and abandoned. 🙁
If the tiny Smart could be made to conform with US safety standards, I don’t see why something like this small EV couldn’t also, especially with the weight of GM behind it (no pun intended). I’d personally be concerned about compatibility with the behomoths plying our highways, and I think a 50-mph 2-lane road presents more dangers than a 70-mph freeway, especially if the former isn’t restricted to passenger vehicles only.
But as a solution to lowering carbon emissions, I see this as a boon. Coal is being used much less frequently in power plants, and it remains a lot easier to control emissions of all types from a relatively low number of power plants compared to millions of ICE (or ICE-hybrid) vehicles.
I agree Paul, and it bears a pleasant resemblance to your xBox as well in my opinion!
We have a Silverado and a Sentra currently, and something like this would make a nice addition, but isn’t practical enough in range, speed or available space to replace either of them. Nor would it be worth adding as an additional vehicle at a cost of over $700/yr for registration and insurance. So, I’ll stick with my (Chinese) 50cc scooter for nominally similar duties, which in Michigan can be registered for $5/year.
The argument from the EV-haters is always that the carbon footprint is greater than ICE vehicles due both to what it takes to build the big EV battery, then later the increased carbon emissions from the electric plants to charge them than the reduced emissions from not burning any fossil fuel.
They both seem like specious ‘facts’, to me, but I can’t really disprove them, either.
Most EV-haters on auto blogs also claim to have 200 mile daily commutes to work, and have to visit Aunt Ethel six states into the midwest at least once a month.
Anything to make the car look unacceptable and useless.
Maybe this is long and meandering, but in its current the form the Wuling Hongguang Mini EV simply isn’t appropriate for most of the world’s developed markets.
The big issue with this is, there’s a reason it’s that cheap. It totally lacks even basic safety features on purpose (no airbags, etc.), has a pretty basic structure that’s not enough when faced with any larger vehicle, which would be nearly 100% of the current US fleet. It has very little power and a relatively small battery so a consequently low range. It’s popular in China because it’s cheap and in the markets where it’s strong, usually major cities, people don’t go very far – it’s effectively replacing public transit, bicycles, e-scooters, mopeds/motorcycles, ride sharing, taxis, etc. rather than actual cars in many cases, or is a second or even third vehicle for some also. There’s also of course the issue of how the electricity is generated there too. EV tech still isn’t cheap enough for cheap runabouts, hence the price comes down by cutting back on everything else required in a car.
A lot of reports (e.g., Bloomberg) have emerged in the last couple of weeks heavily praising this and showing its popularity by reporting from Liuzhou… where it’s built and where there are heavy small EV subsidies designed to promote sales of the locally-built SAIC-GM-Wuling EV models from the Wuling and Baojun brands. Yes, it sells in huge numbers, but that’s because it’s perfect in many of these recently developed megacities for a certain type of consumer.
For this to work in the US in particular, it would need seriously beefed up structure and safety kit, a larger battery, more powerful motor, etc. and all of that pushes the price up to the point you might as well use one of the Mini EV’s slightly larger but similar siblings, such as the Baojun E300, as the starting point (since this model already comes with a lot of what the Mini EV lacks). However, culturally and geographically, the US isn’t primed for a vehicle like this. For example, distances and routes to get to anywhere are generally large. I’m from the UK and it seems mad to me that it’s acceptable to drive as far as a lot of Americans tend to just to get dinner, often with interstates or major highways and long traffic jams involved. As it stands, the Mini EV isn’t compatible with that kind of sprawled out life, unless of course it gets more range to ease anxiety. It’s designed primarily to be an urban runabout, a concept that doesn’t work so well in such a vastly different type of urbanism (or lack thereof). A lot of Chinese cities expanded rapidly and are heavily congested, but they have huge amounts of road infrastructure because this expansion was so recent and in many ways you’re more likely to be closer to your destination in distance or in time than you are in the US. The Mini EV is designed for this type of shorter urban movement. Even a more dense US city like NYC isn’t really designed to support this kind of movement, since we know how much of an effect Uber and Lyft etc. had on congestion, and it has well-developed other methods that perhaps work just as well in most cases that would be considered overlapping with the function of the Mini EV. Of course, a lot of the US doesn’t know what public transport is and won’t cycle so perhaps there is a place for it after all…
Plus there’s demographic and consumer preference differences too, etc. These kind of cultural differences mean people will buy a truck or large SUV even if they’ll literally never use any of that space for anything, cos they can afford to and ‘just in case’ they need to move a boat or suddenly have 6 children they don’t want or whatever. As other comments above has said, people want space, but they also want to feel safe. A lot of consumers will assume small = unsafe still and will avoid it and stick with their crossovers for every purpose.
For short journeys, a lot of the forms of movement this Mini EV is designed to replace (like public transit and cycling) make more sense from most perspectives for a lot of potential users. However I think a good entry for a vehicle with this type of size and powertrain would be in last mile urban deliveries., which is where the Nissan e-NV200 got its foothold with mail and university services in some parts of the UK, and the Renault Zoe did in Norway delivering pizzas. The Citroen Ami Cargo has hit upon this idea too.
Regarding the distance of “American journeys”: After getting my Bolt I, of course, went thru about 2-3 weeks of range anxiety panic, making sure I had my Plugshare app available for instant bailout, and refusing to drive anywhere without good knowledge of nearby emergency charging.
And after about a month, I calmed down, when I discovered the same thing that every EV newbie seems to discover: I don’t drive nearly as much as I though I did.
They make a better one. Wuling is their basic range and GM-Wuling is determined to make something more premium and thus they have Baojun. I saw their ICE Baojun inside GM Proving Ground few times and I was joking watch out for that fake GMC Acadia.
I happened to end up in China last year for many mysterious reasons and I drove this tiny little car, since I never drove a Chinese car before. It’s under Baojun brand, made by GM-Wuling at a higher standard. Design is more cohesive with higher customer expectations, at a higher price too. Considering the buying power of US dollar, the price difference in RMB would be almost neglectable
Photo is from online
Small EV’s are where the Chinese are finally going to break in to the American market.
Yes, I think internationally the E300/E300+ is a far better starting point than the Mini EV is simply because of its better design, larger body and interior, larger battery and motor, and better safety cell and safety kit and other basic mechanical bits. Of course, it’s still not the best but yeah. How was it to drive? I’ve seen a few reviews on Youtube but it’s always interesting to hear different perspectives.
They’re going through a rebranding exercise too, based on Shanghai Motor Show and recent MIIT releases. This E300 seems to become the Baojun Kiwi, while the Baojun E200 gains a Wuling Nano basic twin. I wonder if this hints at export potential?
It drives like a properly engineered GM vehicle by Chinese! And it has a rather good dynamics, but I don’t know if it is because of the lighter weight, or just better engineered in the first place
Paul, I’m with you completely on this one, given my experiences with my Bolt (daily commuter car plus shuttling round trips to Jamestown/Williamsburg as necessary with a good range reserve left), this would really be a wonderful, intelligent answer for a lot of American needs.
Teenager’s daily drive. Economical, short range, you can’t stuff a load of kids in it, and a top speed that’s guaranteed to impress no-one.
Daily work commuter. Hey, it’s just going to and from the job. What more do you need?
Grocery getter? Looks absolutely wondrous for the purpose.
Of course, it’s got it drawbacks:
SAFTEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! Gawd forbid an American who’s got to have his AR-15 be expected to drive an automobile that doesn’t have safety nannies out the wazoo protecting his lilly little butt on a 24/7 basis. Yes, I’m being snide – I’ve also used a motorcycle as a general year round commuter for 40+ years now, and am not bothered by the lack of a cage and nannies surrounding me continually.
It impresses nobody. And this is America. You buy your car as a extension of yourself, or at least the yourself that you’re trying to convince anyone around you that you are. Americans don’t buy unimpressive cars. Especially if it’s got a PROC lineage (maybe if Apple brought it out and called it the iCar . . . . . . . ?)
Quite frankly, GM’s upcoming Hummer disgusts me. All that size and weight, for what? To have the hottest brodozer. I seriously hope that the Ford F-150 Lightning kicks its ass six way from Sunday.
Had this come out in the US before I bought my Bolt, it’s would have been my number one consideration for my current car.
I’ve spent a fair amount of time in China, specifically in Shanghai and Nanjing. It’s hard for someone who has never been there to visualise the scale of everything in China-it’s just huge. Cities go on forever, subways have 20+ lines and there are forests of sky-scrapers.
A car like this is going to be used in one’s home area, doing the shopping or dropping the child at school. It’s cheap to buy and run but it’s not designed for North America. Very few Chinese will ever do the fabled long highway trip that is common here. The rail system is so good and cheap driving long distances isn’t very smart. A similar thing is the Japanese kei class of cars. They are common is urban grocery getters in Japan, but I don’t think many people in North America would buy one.
A good friend is a retired Bosch China engineer, a Chinese national. He basically says that China can produce anything at any level of quality. All the factory machinery is the best in the world. The lack of quality of Chinese products is due to the tendency to cheapen out quality as the demand in China’s market is huge. When an organisation such is ISO gets involved, China is capable of quality matching anywhere in the world.
There is a very high chance the device on which you are reading this was made in China and is perfectly reliable.
i would buy one to use as golf cart and save about $4000.
I don’t see electric cars as compelling or effective at all. I will never own one. (Just who would the money be stolen from to give a free one to anyone who wanted one? If someone gave me one of these I’d give it back with a snarl.)
Do you think four wheel brakes are a proven technology, or do you think I should wait? I don’t want to be an early adopter.
By cracky, only rear-wheel brakes for me, and they better be controlled by a cable like on my bike, not some newfangled hydraulics!
Just who would the money be stolen from to give a free one to anyone who wanted one?
Well, leaving out the political for a moment, if we gave one of these to every person who is able to use it to commute to either a school or a job, then the future tax revenue from that employed individual would likely pay for these. Or, we could claw back all the free money we doled out in tax cuts to the wealthy and corporations, as that was obviously just stealing the money from the poor and middle class, at least by your implication.
Just this morning I was reading about a local project to get rapid bus service to the island communities on our coast. The majority of the lower wage workers, maids, cooks, bellhops, servers, all the people who make a tourist destination work for the tourists, have to commute in, as the idea of living anywhere close to that area is prohibitive. And the jobs there – per one of the workers interviewed – is about $6 per hour higher than anywhere else. So he does a 2 hour bus ride each way every day now, just to keep that good job. Giving that guy a free EV would mean about 3 hours of his day back. Time to spend with his family, like you would enjoy. It would mean we wouldn’t be subsidizing bus service, as it would not be needed. And employers would see a huge pool of available new recruits, as they are not held back by lack of transportation.
No, you are stuck in the idea that giving anyone any help means the recipient is lazy. Ask your parents about all the stuff they gave you, it wasn’t because you were too lazy to get it, it was that you needed it and didn’t know how to get it, or were even able to get it yourself.
Guess what? Benefits that go to the poor usually come back into the economy immediately, via purchases on food, clothing, shelter, and transportation, helping the entire economy. Benefits to the rich usually get put in the bank or invested, mainly only helping the rich. This idea would be no different. Open your mind, as it seems your heart is permanently closed already.
This former Dauphine owner would find something like a Henny Kilowatt or the Wuling Mini perfectly suitable for his present needs. I am retired, live in a small city and only need something for around town. Inexpensive lead acid batteries would probably be a plus.
These little things are cool, but my wish is that there was something just a bit above this in size, range, and performance… but still many notches below the electron guzzling Hummer thing.
Living in fairly rural southern Arizona, stuff can be quite a distance to drive, and the speeds required to get there are higher. My benchmark would be a 75mph cruising speed, and 0-60 in maybe 12 seconds to keep from holding up traffic, and a ~200mi range. With just basic comfort items such as A/C, heat, and decent safety… still in a compact and useful shape, maybe 25% larger than the baby Wuling. Could it be delivered at around $20k US?
But yeah, as Paul mentioned, the source of electricity certainly does play into the equation as far as environmental impact goes… It was almost 100% hydro in Montana; but is natural gas, nuke, as well as solar and a little wind down here, IIRC. It does bum me out that we keep leaving energy efficiency on the table in order to ensure that every vehicle has blistering performance on top of a suite of infotainment fluff. Sure, a 283 horsepower minivan made for a few grins on the onramp, but at the end of the day, I just needed to get a lot of people from point A to B.
Sounds like something between the scale of a Baojun E300/E300+ and Renault Zoe is on your mind?
I’d imagine this will become much more possible and available as the price of the technology comes down, though whether something like that goes to the huge vehicle loving US is a different question entirely.
The $20k price is probably gonna take time to achieve pre-subsidy. The Mini EV can only be so cheap because it lacks safety features and is very basic in terms of structure and mechanics, plus small battery, weak motor, and cheap Chinese labour to build it and all its components and all its source materials, with ‘economies of scale’ from the sheer number of them they’re building reducing prices further still into a market where it is sold with heavy subsidies paid for with a controlled/managed currency.
Yes. You’ve hit the size target nail squarely on the head. I know the cost rises quickly as you install bigger batteries, so I’m trying to look at what my *actual* daily trips are, which are probably representative of what many people living rurally in the western U.S. drive. Tucson, AZ is quite spread out, so it’s between 40 and 140mi round trip to get to the places I frequently need to go. A 200mi range seems like a good number to shoot for, as it leaves enough extra capacity in case the stars don’t align on every trip, plus some extra to account for battery degradation over time. Since my average commute is about 80 miles, I could keep the battery pack in its happiest 20-80% SOC most of the time.
And extra emphasis on the trimming of lard… the more unnecessary trinkets and doodads (and even unused range in a larger than needed battery), the more dead weight you have to drag around. But at the end of the day, I’ve dreamt up a vehicle for myself, that mebbe speaks to a few others out there. Many of the folks who populate auto enthusiast sites are not representative of your average Joe and Jolene who actually go shopping for a new car, so it’s an easy bet that no carmaker will be calling for my consultation services.
Once again, Paul and I agree on a car.
Its a really nicely styled little car, and perfectly adequate for commuting use etc. The only thing that would stop me is that its made in China, the less money I can give to the CCP the better
Regarding the carbon footprint of electricity generation: it is important to understand the concept of rejected energy or waste heat. Electric cars shine here.
According to Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, total energy demand (for everything) in the U.S. for 2020 was 93 quadrillion BTUs. Of this, approx 63 quads ended up as waste heat and only 30 quads ended up doing useful work.
Internal combustion vehicles are about 20% efficient. Electric vehicles are almost 90% efficient. So for electric vehicles there are drastic reductions in waste heat (rejected energy) and thus the energy demand for the electricity to run them is only about one quarter of the energy demand for the petroleum to power internal combustion vehicles.
This is huge.
Also huge is electricity generation’s rejected energy. Out of 37 quads produced, 24 quads are rejected, or about 35% efficiency.
I have owned a Citroen 2CV for 30 years, and now that I am retired we use it as a daily driver for local trips during the summer (unless it is raining). We live in a small town in Ontario and local trips are under 20km and often under 10km. There are only 2 lane highways in the area with a speed limit of 80kmh (i.e. max speed around 110kph). The performance of the 2CV is more than adequate in this environment, and the Wuling Mini EV has similar performance. The top speed of the Wuling is a little lower but it probably has better acceleration.
We have a 2012 Fiat 500 for the winter and those rainy summer days, but when I bought it I did look at used EVs and at that time (5 years ago) they were at least 2 or 3 times the price of the Fiat. We do have a Forester for longer trips and for severe winter weather, but for a local runabout I would certainly be interested in something like this.
I should stock-up on eleven-foot poles, for vehicles that shouldn’t be touched with a ten-foot pole.
We all know you don’t like EVs. You don’t have to keep telling us.
How about GM giving every American who paid taxes to cover their bailout get a free one out of the $35 billion plus that the company stole from us and have left us to cover after financing and handling costs and perpetual deficit spending used to cover what we were left with after the bogus bankruptcy and bogus IPO scheme. When you think about GM not paying a dime in taxes or interest on this money while still shifting jobs to china and to mexico, it becomes infuriating to the point of hoping the company goes under forever.
I am also understating how bad the GM deal was for taxpayers – GM also got to use the tax credits / loss credits from the old company that went under to offset the modern profits.
Same ol’ shinola: privatise the profits and socialise the debts!
Very good points made. Transitioning from gas to electric is a lot more difficult then just asking poor people to buy used electrics. From an emissions stand point poor people will benefit several times more than others that can afford a modern and maintained car. One issue with giving vehicles to those with qualifying income level is the “free lunch” line syndrome. Everyone knows your poor and they become stigmatized. Size is too small for a couple with two or three kids. Current four door economy cars seem to strike a better size/ utilitarian balance here in America. Limiting top speed is interesting but could restrict getting to work. If ones work can only be accessed or efficiently accessed from a highway then they’re SOL. Each domestic maker should select one of their existing small economy vehicles. Then decontent it and create modular battery packs that allow people to upgrade when funds permit.
I think the real issue here is still producing electricity with fossil fuels. I know that can’t be changed overnight but strongest efforts should be made to do it quicker. Nuclear energy is the easiest way to go.