(first posted 8/18/2012) Every good idea has its time in the sun, but the trick is to get out of it before skin cancer appears. The rear engine configuration was once a sensation, especially in the form of the ground-breaking and wind-splitting Tatra 77 in 1934. Ferdinand Porsche had been working on his own rear-engine car concepts since 1932 in a smaller format, which of course led to the seminal Beetle of 1938. But by the late sixties, Europeans’ interest was rapidly shifting to FWD. Not VW. Quite lost and confused amidst all the excitement about FWD, and becoming dangerously conservative (and obsolete), VW developed and built what would be the final blowout of the rear-engine car: the 411/412. It has been referred to as VW’s Edsel, for good reason.
To get a little history and perspective on the 411/412, one only needs to look at…the proposed 311 (above). A prototype (EA 142) designed to replace the Type 3 (1500/1600), it was, for conservative VW, a relatively big step. The 311/EA142 had a unitized body instead of the platform frame of the Beetle and Type 3. And it was styled with the help of Pininfarina. But VW chickened out, and instead just grafted a longer nose on the cramped and obsolete Type 3. But having come this far, and needing a bigger sedan to compete against the very popular Opel Rekord, the basic design was blown up a bit and became the 411, in 1969.
Well, at least it did have four doors, which alone was revolutionary for a VW. That gave rise to a popular saying about the 411′s name: four doors, eleven years too late.
Starting out with only 68 hp from its 1.7 liter air-cooled boxer four didn’t help either; the following year a somewhat more potent 80 hp fuel injected engine came along. But even that was modest, for a car that was exactly the size and weight of the Corvair, which had a much larger six cylinder engine. For whatever reason, the 411/412 didn’t make it to the US until 1971, two years after the Corvair’s demise, to take up the banner for the rear-engine genre.
Even if the 411 was conservative for European standards, it did introduce a host of new design/build elements to VW. The unitized body, MacPherson strut front suspension, non-swing axle independent rear suspension, automatic transmission and disc brakes came out of the 311/411 development, and soon showed up in other VW products, with varying degrees of success. But after Fiat’s brilliant 128 appeared in 1969, the template for modern FWD cars was set, and VW’s efforts really all amounted to rearranging the Titanic’s deck chairs.
The 412 appeared in 1972, with a revised nose and a slightly bigger 1.8 L engine. Not that it really made any difference. The 412′s reputation for being underpowered and thirsty was now firmly cemented in the public’s mind. And the sales numbers confirmed it: In its six year run, VW managed to sell a total of 368k of them globally, of which only 117k went to the US. This is during a time when VW was used to selling almost a half-million Beetles to eager Americans annually.
Like the smaller Squareback, the Variant/Wagon was by far the most successful 411/412 version, functionally and aesthetically. The very low and flat engine meant that there was a considerable amount of room above it in the rear. And then there was still that fairly decent sized trunk up front. And the rear engine gave it superb traction, of course. The fact that the sedans didn’t have a hatchback made its configuration less versatile.
Now if only VW had made a four-door wagon version, it would have been a true successor to the remarkable but equally unloved Corvair wagon.
If you’ve noticed that the sedan I shot seems to be sitting nose high, you’re right. It is, by design: In typical Germanic fashion, VW wanted to make sure the 411 had plenty of front luggage capacity (weight wise) to counter any critics. It’s rated for 220kg (almost 500 lbs), hence the big springs. The owner of the wagon above did what many 411/412 owners do: cut down the front spring and have that nose be pointing back at the earth instead of the sun.
The 411/412 shares quite a bit in common with the VW/Porsche 914, Ironically, I find the 914 a much more successful concept than the 411/412, and I’ll do a CC on one soon. But what would have been interesting is a 911-powered 411/412, to take up the rear-engined battle where the Corvair Corsa left off.
Then the 411 name would have had some real meaning.
Very rare cars in this part of the world other than Beetles and Kombis VW never made much of mark here and by the late 60s were well overpriced for what you got
“But what would have been interesting is a 911-powered 411/412”
Yes and no … it would have been even more expensive as it already was and while not being underpowered so much, it still would have all the other problems it had.
VW could have taken much more power from the engine, but they chose not to and basically same engine block powers the bus (2-liter version) up to 200k miles so there’s plenty of headroom for more power in the design.
We bought new a gold painted 412 station wagon and were quite pleased with it, except for the heater which worked poorly and required frequent attention. The 412 was made before computers and still had an old fashioned distributor. The flat little 1795 cc Porsche fuel injected engine performed just fine, even with the automatic transmission, but no air conditioner. I don’t recall how many miles we put on it, maybe 75,000+. Once we drove it from Ann Arbor to Maine and came back through Canada. US Customs Detroit/Windsor stopped us for 45 minutes and searched the car, but amused us thoroughly because they never looked in the trunk which was in the front! I put a burble muffler on it and new struts as well as a new stereo. Sadly, it perished in a fire. In 1985 we bought a very similar Honda Civic station wagon which was a much better designed and constructed car that we drove for 125,000+ miles.
It was not a Porsche engine. It was 100% VW. Porsche used it in the VW/Porsche 914, but it was designed and built by VW.
Absolutely right. I keep seeing this misstatement in various places. And yes, I’m old enough to remember when it was made.
Is there a decade that was worse for cars than the seventies? It’s as if every car manufacturer decided to build really bad (if not the worst) car(s) they ever built during that timeframe.
Even the abysmal quality and chrome excesses of the late fifties can’t hold a candle to what crawled out from under rocks during the ‘me’ decade.
The seventies was more a “best of times, worst of times”. While the 411/412 was a worst for VW, it was also the era of the Golf, Scirocco, and Passat which were all successful. I think the seventies was a time that tested manufacturer’s creativity. On the one hand you did have a a lot of poorly done responses with strangled engines and heavy bumpers like most of Detroit, and the rubber bumper MG. On the other hand the seventies was also the beginning of some very successful cars like the Honda Accord, the Volvo 240 the Mercedes W123, and even the GM B bodies and Ford Panthers emerged from the crucibles of EPA and CAFE.
Having been a car nut during the height of the muscle car era, I consider the 70’s as the beginning of the end for US car companies… (and my own personal automotive nightmare) That the US auto giants were almost totally intractible and also showed a shocking inability to adapt to the changes required in a graceful way lead to the repositioning of the worldwide automotive landscape. In the 60’s you were perhaps lucky to see a few VW’s cruising around, a cute counterpoint to the dominant number of US cars on American roads. Toyotas and Datsuns were virtually nonexsistent in most parts of the country. The horrible offerings from Detroit of the ‘Me Decade’ lead to the almost immediate shift to better made, more reliable and less expensive cars from Japan and the rise of all sorts of diversity on US highways & byways. That almost every other importer of vehicles into this country during those years made a better product than the “Big Three” US automakers culminated in the bailout of Chrysler, which not only saved that but shook that stuffy old company into re-inventing itself; such that it is now producing some of the most unique, imaginative and exciting vehicles of the US car industry (The Viper and Challenger come to mind here). The reverberations caused by the horrible 70’s have changed the world’s automotive lanscape forever. In the age of globalization, never again will any country dominate the world’s automotive production like the US did in the 50’s and 60’s The 70’s were a death knell for what was. Having said that, the resulting diversification in the automotive landscape has probably lead to a better product than otherwise we would have access to today, so there is that. In the end the 70’s WERE the worst of times and best of times, with fans of the US car industry seeing the worst collection of cars Detroit ever made but the emergence of a really exciting selection of well made exciting cars from around the world and especially from Japan (the Datsun 240Z and the Toyota Celica come immediately to mind)
Depends on the manufacturer. Lots of great French cars were born in the 70s, and with a few notable exceptions, plenty of crap ones came along later. Citroen, for example, didn’t get its mojo back until very recently.
70s was a bad time also for British car manufactures, all of them.
Most of them died or got fused to bigger ones.
I love the shot of the orange wagon. Very appropriate to have an Edsel in the background! One of my uncles had a silver 411 that he bought new. It was an absolute dog, and IIRC, the motor gave up the ghost with less than 70,000 miles on the clock.
I had a 1974 Silver 4 door 412. The car had a cool look and the bumpers looked solid until anything hit them. I was going to college and in the school’s parking lot and there was a t intersection and someone waved me on and the car behind them (a corolla) tried to get around them and broadsided me. My car was totalled. What a piece of crap, however like I said earlier, it looked good.
“It was an absolute dog, and IIRC, the motor gave up the ghost with less than 70,000 miles on the clock.”
Type 4 engine lasts typically 200k miles without worries if it has regular oil changes.
Which of course didn’t often happen in US as the domestic cars didn’t care so much, so no-one did that.
Hahahaaa… I noticed the Edsel. I didn’t really realize all of these issues back then. I was a kid and just loved all VWs…… never owned an aircooled one though, all A1 and A2 GTi/GLi.
It was the basic up-until-that-point VW package, taken to, and beyond, its logical end.
Seems every car company does this. Chrysler with its K derivatives. Ford with its Fox platforms…before that, the Pinto chassis ludicrously made into a Mustang; and before even THAT, the Falcon chassis, with its 20-year run as Maverick, Mustang, Granada.
This was VW up until that time. The Beetle’s time had come and was passing; and the company, not created in the normal way – a company organized around a preexisting product, put together for government and economic expediency…this untested company had to do what it never had done. Develop a new product for a changing market.
Just as Chrysler’s purchase of Franco-American Motors saved it with an influx of ideas and talent, so, too, apparently, did VW save itself by purchasing NSU. And they obviously knew it, too, as from that point the race was on to develop experience in FWD and water-cooled engines.
As for the Type 4s: Used to be a fair number of them around here, in the various places I’ve lived along Lake Erie. They didn’t last long, however; the front fenders tended to develop huge holes above the wheels and the doors split open from rust.
As with other issues that came of transplanting a car from one market to another, the problem came from VW’s non-experience with road melting agents in their own market. It seems they did learn; not as fast as Japanese makers who identified the need right off; but faster than the contemptuous American firms who enjoyed the planned obsolescence.
Of course, VW being owned and financed by the West German Empire using money they didn’t have to pay in war reparations (unlike, say, Britain which `won’ the war but still has to pay off debts) due to the Cold War meant that it wasn’t really in any danger at all, what with being a scion of post-War German Industry. State-owned enterprise at its best, and responsible for destroying a host of original German volume manufacturers’ market. I sometimes wonder which side of the Wall were the communists on.
Maybe we’ll see better competition now, as the US has a Government Motors Corporation of its own.
@Car Counter:
From Wikipedia: “After World War II, both West Germany and East Germany were obliged to pay war reparations to the Allied governments, according to the Potsdam Conference. Other Axis nations were obliged to pay war reparations according to the Paris Peace Treaties of 1947.
Though these reparations exceeded aid from the Marshall Plan, West Germany managed to pay them, in the meantime developing a strong economy (Wirtschaftswunder). East Germany had more harsh payment, but still managed to rise as an industrial power.”
They most certainly did pay the reparations. I can remember my father commenting that (West) Germany paid reparations and was the only (former Axis) country to pay them in full.
The State of Lower Saxony has about a 13% share of VW as of last year, and never held more that 20%, due to German laws. For comparison, the US government currently has about a 26% equity in GM. Neither one is state-run.
You may not like VW or Germans, but get the facts straight.
Inflation was high in Germany and France so they got their debts paid off relatively quicklu. In the UK it was lower thus repayments took longer.
“State-owned enterprise at its best,”
You seem to forget that it was owned by Allies, not Germany. At least at the beginning.
Does any other car wear the 5 mph bumpers more awkwardly?
Peugeot 504 1975-1980
MGB 1975-1980
MG Midget 1975-1979
Porsche 911….
The U.S. market Datsun 710 (Violet in other countries) . . . they tried to ‘extend’ the other market curved bumpers and it was ugly and awkward to say the least. After ’75, they used the typical battering rams.
’74 and on Fiats in the U.S.; ’70’s U.S. Mazda products, the aforementioned U.S. market MG’s, but Mike Tippett left off the battering rams of the Peugot 604.
U.S. market BMW’s through 1991 and, of course, ’74-’80 Mercedes S classes and the SL’s.
Any BMW…
The Pinto’s rear shelf comes to mind.
I cannot decide if the Triumph Spitfire from that era is brilliant or awful with their 5 mph bumper treatment….
Cubist versions of Dagmars, perhaps?
My God…. YES! Those are beyond “diving boards”… those are Yacht transom swim platforms!!
😯
(Worse than “any BMW” of that era!. At least the e10, e21, e24,e28 & early e30’s had no over-riders & black rubber bumper side returns, with bellows, to try to blend them in. I did several bumper tucks on many early BMW’S. I managed to bring the rear bumpers in more successfully than the front bumpers. The rear’s had center covering strips on top, to help hide the tuck, whereas the front strips were tucked underneath the aluminum “diving board”.)
My vote goes to the Renault 17. It was already aesthetically challenged in EU spec, but the US bumpers made it look downright ridiculous, esp. at the rear. Double bumpers!
This one is actually for sale on Ebay right now. Act now to own your piece of VW’s (questionable) history. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Goldie-Volkwagen-412-1974-Two-Door-Manual-transmission-/140824230547?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item20c9c73a93#ht_500wt_1183
At least the 411 is pretty (in my eyes that is).
In retrospective, it looks like a cross between a Saab 99/900 and a Corvair.
For some reason, I’ve always liked these. When I was ten or so, there was a blue 4-door sitting in a driveway facing the alley a couple blocks from my house. It was pretty weathered and looked like it hadn’t moved in years. No idea if it was a 411 or 412 as you couldn’t see the nose, and I don’t remember what the rear emblem said.
That non-running sedan is the only one I’ve ever seen in person, and that was over twenty years ago.
The 412’s taillight clusters are mounted higher than the 411’s.
Owned a red 412 and considered it a good machine. Top speed was near 100 mph and it had decent handling. Lots of luggage space up front. It had an independent gas heater which could drive out of the car a 25 below zero if you turned it on high. The only problem I had was when I tried to install a CB radio. To car had electronic fuelninjection. When I keyed the CB mike to talk the engine quit!
Why go to all the trouble of cutting the front springs down? My father achieved the same result in his Type 3 with a much more elegant, simple solution. He put two 50-pound sacks of concrete in the front luggage compartment. His goal was to make the car feel more solid on the road, but I’m sure it would have worked just as well to lower the front end of a 412 (but not if you wanted to carry a lot of luggage). Mileage would suffer, but then, as you say, it wasn’t that good to begin with.
Wasn’t this the inspiration for the GM X-car Citation, only with the engine and drive wheels on the other end? If so, it would seem the design imitation was a little ‘too’ good.
Volkswagen had to be in a tough spot; every platform based on the Beetle with it’s 1930’s technology. Time, tightening emission standards, the rise of BMW with it’s 2002 had to have Heinz Nordhoff, the man who helped save VW after the war, desperate to escape the shadow of the Beetle and attempt to move VW upscale. It’s funny, people ask me all the time if my New Beetle TDI has the engine in the rear…….that funny looking people’s car cast a long shadow indeed! It wasn’t until the Rabbit and Scirocco did people realize there was no going back to the rear engined air cooled Beetle. The 411 was a kind of bridge in getting there.
Looking forward to the Porsche 914 write up Paul!
“The 411 was a kind of bridge in getting there.”
Definitely. Passat/Dasher was introduced in -73 and I had an opportunity to park my -74 412 4-door sedan side by side with a -74 Passat (5-door hatchback) and the to a layman it’s the same body. Just redesigned interior, rear window transformed to a door and engine/gearbox in other end of the car.
Front end of 412 had a lot of room and front end was designed to hold 500lbs of load so trivial to do.
Well, never had a 411/412, but I did have a 1968 type 3 fastback “mit einspritz.” It replaced a ’67 beetle when I was in Germany. Bought it there new for about $1,800 (!!!), including an am.mw.sw radio. I enjoyed driving it, but it expired on an icy road in Colorado the next year; fortunately, I did not. The 411/412 just didn’t have enough redeeming features.
Does anyone remember the Mike Jitlov stop-motion animation commercial made for the 411. To drive home the point of a “big Volkswagen” they had King Kong in the car.
I do. Enough that my Dad was interested and so it was off to Leon C. Felton VW in San Rafael. We all rode in a yellow with black vinyl seated VW 411. Automatic. Slug slow. Pop was not impressed and said “no thanks” although he did look interestingly at an orange fastback . . . .
Us kids wanted him to take home a bug as a seconod car.
I actually have that as part of a 1000 TV Commericals DVD package that I picked up at Borders (RIP) for about $5, which also includes a promo film about the Corvair being road tested and the ’57 Chevy truck line running the Al-Can Highway.
My first CC comment. The technique was called Animato. He did a demonstration video set to the song “I Know a Place” by Petula Clark.
My 412, Bella, was one of the worst cars I ever owned- this was back in 1996. It had a D-jetronic injection system, and the 412 used no less than 13 different ‘computer’ (probably with reel-to-reel technology) in 1974 alone. Mine would occasionally stall and couldn’t be started for anything- until it changed its mind and would run perfectly. The battery was also under the DRIVERS seat- so a battery explosion would cause damage to the more vulnerable parts of the anatomy when leaning over to start it. I later found the problem with mine is that the vulnerable electrics were under the rear seat, where a careless friend had dumped a daquiri from the drive thru daquiri stand. What’s more, VW filled all of the unprimered box sections with expanding foam, resulting in terminal and unfixable rust in the strangest of places.
– oh, and changing the rear right spark plug required removing the engine, hence a misfire.
Yet, it had a cavernous cargo area and a front trunk capable of holding 4 tyres on wheels!
To think that Chevrolet did the same thing with the Lakewood in 1961, and even added rear doors shows just how outdated this thing was when it debuted. Plus, the Corvair didn’t need a computer and had engine access better than almost any other car, foreign or domestic.
Mercedes was bragging in 2001 that the new W203 C Class had expanding foam in the box sections to quell noise. Umm, OK.
But that’s the C class. Formerly with “Baby S” styling, you could see where they did (and still do) really cut corners to make it come in at a price point. To get today’s Mercedes C reasonably equipped, one has to opt for the “luxury edition” – and then the price hits the mid 40’s. Might as well go up to an “E”. . . (or 5 series Bimmer) . . . .
An 18 year old 411LE was the least reliable car I ever owned.. The D-Jetronic’s discrete electronic components (all pre-chip!) and mechanical points triggering didn’t age well… Its favourite trick was to decide to turn all 4 injectors on all the time when starting, flooding the warm engine with neat fuel and creating clouds of white petrol steam out of the exhaust! The Ebesrpacher petrol-fired heater was good and reliable though.. I remember on cold mornings going out and setting it to run for ten minutes on the timer.. At least I was sat in a warm car when it failed to start!
:o)
Also the sheer amount of external components and unreliable joints between them made it unreliable.
See for yourself:
http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss354/ARCANE1967/411%20Variant/DSCF0601.jpg
I mean who would design an intake which has rubber hoses without hose clamps in it?
411/412 had, not only one, but four. And intake leak confused the heck out of FI as it didn’t have any feedback from exhausts like modern ones.
D-Jetronic most likely had an analog computer with discrete components, as digital computers small enough to fit were too slow & new to the market at that time.
It took until about 1980 before microprocessors became fast & cheap enough to be usable for such applications.
Being a die-hard aircooled Volkswagen enthusiast, I can tell you that these cars get very little love from VWers today. Don’t get me wrong, as with just about every car out there, there are a select few who love them but they are a small number. They are a very rare sight at VW shows.
I’ve had the opportunity to drive one a friend owned a few years ago. While I did find it
enjoyable to drive (aside from the automatic) it was not nearly enough to make me seriously want one. It’s just an awkward looking car.
I’ll stick with my Beetle and Bus.
Many reasons for that: 4-series is totally different to earlier models which causes a lot of learning. That’s hard work and spare parts are next to impossible to find.
Any spare parts. Ball joints, brake pads, etc. are just N/A. Not too easy.
That alone makes it very demanding even as a hobby car.
Add the complexities like stock gasoline heater and rust everywhere to the mix and it’s easy to see why it’s not so popular, purely from work/maintain side.
It’s not even a pretty car, those get forgiven a lot.
I’m having one as a challenge and to have one of each type, but I don’t think it’s a common thing.
As a regular reader of Auto, Motor und Sport at the time, I followed the K70 towards its introduction closely. Looking back, it was probably the most modern sedan of its time, and it obviously had some of the competition, including VW, sweating. The ams-issue where the final, production ready model was introduced over several pages (which I have googled to be the March 1969 issue) had a note stuck in, simply saying “Der K70 kommt nicht”.
VW sat on it for about a year before it was re-released as a VW. Apparently all quality problems were not yet ironed out, and it never became a runaway success.
Oh Peggy and your silver 412.
I drove it a couple of times, being used to beetles and Mk1 Golf, it felt like a bigger and softer car. I was intrigued, but maybe that was due to Peggy 🙂
alistair
I”m VW crazy and bought my 10th one in 2010.
I owned the 411 and 412 also the Passat Estate, and still have two set of suitcases made for the boots. (One brown, the other blue)
Of all these vehicles, only the 412 gave trouble. It failed to start a week after driving out the showroom. I first thought it was due to the fuel injection.
It started if I rocked it a bit. Took the workshops two weeks to discover that the earth wire inside the chassis had a loose bolt. They had to hack it open from the bottom.
I am obsessed with these cars, especially the 412. The coupe w/4 spd. Manual is the one to have and I have four of just those. The original stance and wheels are incredibly dorky and should be ditched immediately. Nose way down, big Porsche wheels!
Well I have three of these unloved VWs, and I love them. I’ve had five of them in total, since 1984. Pictured here are two of them, both 1974 412s. I also have a 1971 411 wagon. All three are in great condition – but it is a hobby/passsion to keep them that way!
Can’t say I love them, but have a soft spot for “orphans”. Can you imagine one of these with a Jake Raby Type 4 engine ? http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/
That would be an awesome sleeper car.
Currently driving a 1993 VW Passat Diesel (1.9 l AAZ engine, Canada only)
Right on. I found a 1971 411 fastback with 17000 original miles for $1500. I am replacing the fuel injection with dual carbs and cannot wait to get her on the road!
I’ve always liked these too. These are very nice examples. I would love to see the wagon.
Here’s mine
ah – the anti-gravity edition
Sorry about that. Not sure what I did there.
just click on the image of the vehicle and then it is correct.
One of the most intriguing and satisfying cars I ever owned was a 1971 baby blue 4-door sedan.
Roomy, sinfully smooth ride and engine note on the highway at 70+ mph, 25 mpg overall, and very roomy for my 6’4″ 220# frame.
It gave it’s life to protect my pregnant wife and 5 year old daughter in a crash when a stretch limousine carrying the Beach Boys lost traction in light rain in Birmingham, MI.
I would buy one again tomorrow to go with my current triple black 99 Volvo XC 70 and green 93 Acura Vigor.
Here’s the 412 I used when I took up surfing in 1974:
My dad got the VW Squareback in 71. But I remember seeing the 411 wagon for the first time at the same dealer. I liked it better because it looked more up to date in styling , and it had more front trunk space. My art teacher in high school had one , and looked pretty good compared to the VW bus parked next to it that belonged to the shop teacher.
That chrome yellow Variant is now mine! Great car, back to stock height and will have wood grain added to it eventually. I love these cars and will make sure this one is saved.
I always kind of liked these cars, particularly the 411 Variant. It helps considerably that I could do this from the perspective of not actually having to own one.
My father had an inexplicable attraction to these wretched cars. He’d bought his first Bug in ’58, and was a Porsche enthusiast. Maybe that explains it. But it doesn’t excuse it. Particularly not when I was forced, at age 16, to drive these dreary beasts.
They were glacially slow. Passing maneuvers required huge premeditation and jamming down hard on the downshift button. Then a wait. Then a tiny surge of thrust. Dangerously slow. And dangerously sensitive to side winds. The car’s nose would dart nervously from side to side in the slightest breeze. And the heating controls. And the horror of the whole thing.
The car did have its virtues. It was good in snow, phenomenal, really. The fruck + back load area made a high practical combination. Net, net, a good ski car, though it was wheezy int he mountains. And it had carpeting, where our old squarebacks had rubber, which made it feel fairly deluxe. But that was it. (And no, the gasoline powered heater you could crank up at any time, no, it was not a virtue. It smelled funny.)
You can imagine how I felt when Dad came home with a 412 after the 411 had passed out. I was mortified. I think I survived those years only by virtue of the fact that Dad let me drive his 2002 from time to time.
I wonder why the 411-412 fastback didn’t offer a rear trunk like the type 3 fastback ? It was originally supposed to be a successor. Even a hatchback would have made the car a lot more desirable . It might as well have been a super super Bug.
I have often wondered the same thing.. They obviously had the abilty to make the engine flat enough, as they did so in the Variant version.. In the saloon’s engine compartment was just a load of wasted space over the engine, with the heater booster fan mounted in the middle, and the cooling intake ducted through the lid.. Using the Variant’s side intake setup, as the Type 3 Fastback did, would have freed up this wasted space for a rear boot/trunk. The original Type 3 Notchback had a small rear boot, but size was compromised by the cooling air ducts from under the rear window.. The use of the Variant (Squareback) side cooling intakes made the Fastback’s rear boot pretty vast in comparison.
In terms of styling, the two door fastback version wasn’t one of VW’s better looking vehicles. I would’ve preferred either the 4 door or the station wagon. They’re better looking (IMHO).
I started with VWs. The ’63 1200 beetle followed by the 1300. Underpowered to be sure. Next I bought the 1600 wagon and I loved it. When I went to work in Prague, Czechoslovakia I purchased the ’72 412 model. Absolutely loved it. Most comfortable car I ever owned. It would do an honest 100 mph on the autobahn and even with the poor gas behind the Iron Curtain I got 30 per Imperial gallon. I was oft times shadowed by the Communists but never had a problems loosing them, one of the fastest cars in Prague at the time until the Secret Police finally got some French Chryslers. Just loved beating some of the diesel Mercedes cars on the autobahn as well.
My neighbors across the street growing up [family of my childhood besty] had a Porsche 911T [their Dad’s car, equipped w/ the “speedshift” semi-auto (manual) trans] and a 411 wagon [for the succession of teenagers; 5 kids in that family, so fairly big even for the time.] Luckily their dad had a fairly good business going, since they unfortunately had bought some of VW/Porsche’s less reliable designs: one or the other was always in the shop! Their Chevy van [w/ a side-slider, as ALL VANS SHOULD HAVE: that anyone persisted on putting barn doors on the side-entry of a full-size van at any point after the side-slider was invented is cause for concern & scrutiny into their mental stability… :: ] was the only vehicle they had [other than motorcycles & bicycles] that could be relied upon for daily use, so not everything about ’70s GM vehicles was bad!
Oh, yeah, the 411 eventually caught on fire & gutted itself. I forget what they replaced it with, but I remember asking if they were going to get another one when I 1st heard the news of its demise & the answer was “Not in a million years! I try not to make the same mistake twice…” ;D
The type 4 is the one air cooled model I never owned. Never had the desire to own one.
Not one of VW’s better ideas, in fact DS is probable more accurate.
It does have a small fan base, however.
FWIW & looking at the grand scheme of things, the Volkswagen Dasher which replaced the 412 eventually and today’s Passat owes their existence to this car much in the same way the Golf, the Rabbit and the modern Beetle to the original Beetle.
Another fine example of Niedermeyerian [or Paulist] prose. Despite having a driveway that hosted a number of Wolfsburg’s works, I’d forgotten about the 412 which I attribute to that I rarely saw them on the road or knew anybody who owned one. Also appreciated the attention to detail in matching up the graphics with the text content here: in addition to properly documenting VW’s ‘Edsel’ in all of its dimensions, the 7th photo in has what looks to be a ’58 Citation lurking forth. A motor-doppelganger, no doubt which is about to speak through its horse collar grille, ,”Luke, I am your father….”
I remember these when they came out, and figured that they would be a big hit too, sort of a VW for grownups. The guidance counselor at my middle school (named Kauffman – go figure) owned one. It surprised me when these didn’t really take off.
I had assumed that these were packing a lot more power than regular VWs, and had no idea how underpowered these were. No wonder the world of import sedans belonged to Toyota and Datsun in the 70s, and not VW.
I didn’t know the 411 was VW’s answer to the Rekord.
Rekords where roomy inside, nicely built (less rust than the competition, nice finish and no chirps or loose screws inside) with a large trunk and reliable and sturdy engines.
Issuing the 411 against the Rekord was like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Yeah, it’s a pity VW didn’t hire Sean Connery as a marketing consultant.
“They shend one of your cars to the body shop, you shend one of theirs to the crusher. THAT is how you beat GM!”
Never owned one but did drive one from time to time. Pleasant enough experience but tough to keep running. That was probably why I never owned one and don’t regret missing out.
I remember when these came on the market. Deep down, I know something was wrong. Toyota and Datsun were sucking up market share while VW was holding on to its “entranced” view of the world.
Thank god they got religion and came out with the Rabbit/Gulf. If not, could you imagine that VW would have been acquired by Fiat, British Leyland, or Volvo.
Imagine all those Wolfburg types playing rugby in the parking lot sucking on a pint of “bitters” singing “Rule Britania”. Shocking, just shocking!!!!!!????????
IMHO, it was a mistake to move the car upmarket. Being in the same price range as e.g. 1700cc Ford Taunus, Opel Rekord or Audi 80 (offered by the same VW-Audi Group !), it was never a serious competitor to begin with.
VW could copy everything Tatra had invented, but still didn’t learn how to build a true rear-engine luxury car, the only thing they could muster (without extensive help from NSU and AutoUnion engineers) was a larger, 4-door Beetle, decades behind the contemporary Tatra 613 with its excellent handling and comfort.
Such car would’ve been great for the developing countries where people looked less on how it behaved on the highway and more on how it behaved on an unpaved rural road, where rear-engined cars really shine, thanks to roughly 40-by-60 weight distribution. Essentially a downsized version of the 411 with a Beetle engine, the Volkswagen Brasília, was quite successful on the respective market.
Yes, VW of Brazil had the Brasilia as an answer to the Chevrolet Chevette, around 73 IIRC. Very successful. You can see one on the Mexican show “Chavo”.
The other way around, Brazilian siblings of the 411 and 412 did poorly.
“But what would have been interesting is a 911-powered 411/412, to take up the rear-engined battle where the Corvair Corsa left off.”
Your idea became reality in form of the VW411 Carrera ‘Nordstadt Express’ by the tuning house Artzt.
I recently came across a very low mileage 1971 411 wagon and am in the process of writing up a CC on it. Fortunately I was able to talk to the owner, and got several good interior photos as well. It’s remarkable how advanced a lot of the car’s engineering aspects were, but the concept itself was doomed from the outset on account of its air-cooled, rear-engine layout. But still a fascinating car, and it was mighty neat to sit in one, too.
Looks like the Brazilian VW TL 1600
Looks like but it isn’t. It’s a VW SP2.
Shares most of the body with type 3 variant but has type 4 engine and gearbox and many other items, brazilian design.
My brother-in-law (then just sister’s boyfriend) had a ?411? sometime in the early 70’s during a period when he was going through a remarkable spell of back luck with cars dying violent deaths. Among those I remember T-boned at an intersection; the inevitable late night encounter with a Pennsylvania deer; loading ramp fell off a car carrier in front of him; hood popped open, couldn’t see – hit another car.
The VW stood out though, by catching fire for some reason, and burning to the ground.
Not too rare, I’m afraid. VW didn’t use clamps on fuel hoses at that time and when the hoses got old and hard they weren’t attached too well anymore.
Disconnected hose sprays engine bay and a fire is ready.
I test drove a 412 automatic back in 95. It was at one of our local “buy here pay here” places. If I remember correctly they wanted something outlandish like $3495 just because it was a Volkswagen. I of course had no intention of buying it, just wanted a test drive. ‘Course I didn’t tell them that. As soon as you left the dealership you had to go left and go back under the hwy. In my 73 Maverick I was driving at the time, I could take the curve at around 45 mph without too much drama. I hit it at 20 mph in the 412 and the rear started coming out from under me. I knew Volkswagen’s suffered from oversteer, but had no idea it was this bad. I went slowly back and gave some excuse and left. I’ve never driven a Volkswagen since. Never owned one either.
Even an optioned-up Maverick would probably have been substantially cheaper new than a 411/412 as well.
And I call crack pipe on your seller’s price, too. You could have gotten a reasonably nice early ’60s Beetle, maybe even a sunroof one, for $3500 in ’95.
Yeah, that’s why I’ve never owned a VW. I’m used to buying good solid DD cars for $500-900 a pop. Volkswagen’s being cult cars are way overpriced for me. Even non running type 1’s run $1500 up around here. Hell, I bought my 79 Lincoln for $750 and found receipts in the glove box totalling $4200 plus for work done on it 5 years prior to me buying it. Now that’s my kinda deal. I just can’t bring myself to pay more than that for any kind of 40 year old car. I have no rational explanation for it, I’m just cheap. Always have been.
Interesting … I’ve a 412 automatic and it corners quite well, definitely not bad for a 70s car.
Of course I’m running on new tyres as the ones I got with the car, were from early 80s, I didn’t dare to drive with them.
Anyway, 411/412 had totally new suspension and oversteering shouldn’t be any worse than other rear-engined cars (like Corvair).
The Brazilian TL had both versions, 2 and 4 doors and the SW also. TL stands for Touring Luxe… But we call it Teresa Loka around here.
That’s the great thing about VW. They were so global that they could recycle their designs if they failed in one market to better fit another. These look related to the Typ 4 at least in spirit, but the back-slanted front end makes it all work much better.
Though these are actually Typ 3s and the 1st Brazilian version, the 1600 Zé do Caixão, arguably looked even worse than the 411…
That’s the car I learned to “do sideways” or “drifting’ in. It was1977, I was 15 y/o. My 17y/o friend’s family owned one and lived next to a gravel pit. We’d go there on Sundays & fly around the huge aggregate piles learning to steer the opposite of where the nose was pointing. Same Gold color too!
Ahhh, memories
P.S. The above photo of the red Corvair wagon with the Cragar mags.. Rule #1:
NEVER put whitewalls “out” on any Mag wheel, EVER!
It is the equivalent to this:
Agreed. James Garners Firebird in the Rockford Files always had whitewalls. They looked so out of place on the rims those cars used.
You are correct! I did a Google image search & found a Rockford Files Matchbox (or Hot Wheels?) replica… complete with whitewalls on Donk wheels! lol
I bought a ’68 in ’76 and loved it so much, I got a ’69 for my girlfriend. We used the ’68 for several trips between the mountains of NC to New Hampshire and I do believe I could still be driving it had it not been for a wayward flood…
” It is, by design: In typical Germanic fashion, ”
Not only Germanic fashion: Many early 70s cars had nose up, especially when the cars got older.
See Cadillacs from that era and you’ll see.
First: 412 wasn’t a bad car at all: It is and was a big luxury sedan, at least from European point of view.
The real problem with it was that factory didn’t have/didn’t want to put money to test it properly so them arses were using buyers as testers.
Very bad business error when you are talking about expensive car like 4-series was and it almost bankrupted whole company.
First: The engine. It was Autobahn-proof (=you can drive whole day at full speed, years and years) but that meant the nominal output was only 75hp, that wasn’t much and automatic and smog prevention (in US) took its share from that as European version had higher compression, thus 85hp (with twin carbs). Not too much but better.
Fuel injection had so many components and sloppy build (an example: Inlet had hoses but no hose clamps: Money saved. Same thing with fuel hoses.) that the factory never got it reliable and eventually reverted to twin carbs (to ’74 model).
That was too late, as we know: NSU-based watercooled engines and FWD were taking over. Type 4 engine also needed regular oil change to last and people in US didn’t usually bother to do that, so the engines didn’t last long.
Fuel efficiency wasn’t too good but considering the price (=expensive car) it didn’t matter too much. But FI unreliability was a killer, definitely.
Second: The body. Factory was using PU-foam extensively basically everywhere as a sound dampener. It was working as intended and a 412 was a silent car, but it was realized quite fast that it also lead to serious rusting problems, not only in body but in suspension parts and everywhere.
Once that was known, the resale value was dropping like a stone and as it was an expensive car, the money needed to change your current one to a new one, was increasing very rapidly, losing sales.
Third: The steering. 411/412 had totally new steering and it had a tendency to wobble when the joints wore a bit, only few years from new. Of course owners didn’t like that all and factory tried to fix that so many times that basically every year model of 4-series have different steering parts.
Lack of proper testing shows again: Something like that wasn’t acceptable in 70s any more that it is now.
Combine all of these to the fact that it was an expensive car, especially in US as German Mark was a strong currency while US Dollar wasn’t.
Summary: Totally new design (no separate chassis, unibody design) with too many teething problems and still expensive, not a recipe for success to anyone.
As an owner of a -74 412 sedan automatic I can say it’s a nice car to drive and plenty of room inside, at least compared to other VWs at that time.
With dual carbs the biggest headache is the steering, it’s very picky about tyres and adjustments and parts, otherwise it easily starts to wobble at ~50mph. A bit more speed and it stops.
Funny thing is that 4-series body was reborn as Passat almost like it is in 4-door sedan: Just the engine and transmission, loaned from the K70, got swapped to front.
Fortunately they had sense to leave PU-foam out.
I purchased a 1974 VW 412 brand new from the dealership in the fall of 1973. I traded in a Ford Pinto for it. I drove my 412 for 30 years (20 years of that it was my daily driver). I drove it practically every state in the union (except Alaska and Hawaii) and several trips to/across Canada. I was very happy with this vehicle. All I ever needed to have done to it was regularly scheduled oil changes and tune-ups which were at long intervals.) I still have that 412. It was/is a great car. A mechanic I knew (he was VW factory-trained and knew volkswagens inside out) told me on several occasions that I “lucked out” and had gotten a car built on a day the angels must have been working the assembly line.”
Carol, you still have that 412? Great story. I have a ‘74 412 I’m trying to get back on the road now. Where are you located?
Scott, yep, I still have that car.
Scott, just realized I only answered your first question. Your second question: Lewistown, Montana.
I’d love to see a picture of your 412, and sure others on this blog would too. I still have fond memories, and the owners manual, for one of the two 412s I owned.
For VWs entry into larger, dare we say luxury cars, it was lacking features like power brakes. Steering was light, so didn’t need to be power. I believe some California units had A/C – perhaps dealer installed? Not that A/C was common in the 1970s.
Both of mine were 1974 412s, and both 2nd hand wagons with FI. c1980 I bought the red automatic for $1400 from the original owner. Compared to the ’67 Beetle I owned it was the height of luxury and a practical wagon to boot. It was parted out after my ex crumpled the front end (it was still driveable but front end looked like hell) and replaced with a brand new ’82 Rabbit “Black tie” edition, that cost me Cdn$8200 incl taxes. This econobox (e.g. cloth covered cardboard roof liner) Rabbit L had a 1.7L 4-cyl with 76 HP, not much different from the maligned 412, and a lot less front or rear legroom.
Later we needed two cars and I bought the gold 412. Once the clutch cylinder failed, spraying hydraulic fluid on my left leg/foot. It was difficult even back then (mid ’80s) to get parts.
I’m not sure about the comment somewhere above about no computer onboard…I just think it had a really primitive one…like 3 transistors and 2 capacitors. My college English teacher bought a 411 or 412 about 1972. He told our class first thing he did was drive it from Hutchinson, Kansas to Los Angeles to see the sights. It ran fine until Death Valley and nightfall. It was the usual 105 degrees F. there in the sun, but when the sun sets there, there are often extreme drops in temperature. The temperature dropped like a rock in a few minutes and the controls that monitor air temperature, fuel mix, etc. told the engine to shut off. He rolled to a stop and waited while the engine thought about the radical shift in temperature for about 5 minutes. Then it re-started and he was on his way.
Maybe someone else can figure out why this happened. If anyone gets an urge to buy a VW 412, theres one sitting in a neighbor’s backyard for 15 years. I’ve watched the roof’s finish coat fade, then the primer, now down to bare metal….but still no appreciable rust. Dry Idaho climate.
In these very pages, fun was made of Studebaker and the unfinished seam on the 1953-55 two-door sedan where the four-door’s rear door cutout would have been. So why was Volkswagen given a pass on an equally crude-looking detail? While discussing this VW as a Deadly Sin, we may as well dump on it for one more thing.
That gold color must have been used in the ads, because I automatically associate the 412 with it.