(first posted 2/25/2013) Audi has long been an aspirational brand. While in the U.S. market it has tended to play second banana compared to Mercedes-Benz and BMW, in Europe it is held in rather higher esteem; in fact, in its home market the A8L is considered in some quarters to be more prestigious than the S-Class Merc. Perhaps part of the reason why is the raw deal Audi got with their 5000 model. While Audi was ultimately absolved of any mechanical or engineering issues with the car, the resulting bad press likely set Audi back 15 years. The first small step back to normalcy was removing the tarnished 5000 nameplate from the model roster.
image: imcdb.org
The “C3” 5000, introduced in 1983, was the European Car of the Year. Its flush glass, smooth lines (still widely copied on most all mid-size sedans today) and slippery 0.30 Cd were most impressive, and many a Yuppie found them must-haves. Although the 5000 did have its share of trouble, electrical and otherwise, it didn’t seem to affect sales much–at first. But a series of unfortunate events would soon overwhelm the German company, at least in the States.
photo by PN
In 1986, 60 Minutes “reported” that lots of Audi 5000s were seemingly taking off without any driver input. Then they proceeded to jury-rig the 5000 featured in the program to behave the way they wanted it to behave. Pandemonium ensued, and Audi USA was kneecapped, given two black eyes and had a piano dropped on their head. From a high of 74,061 units in 1985, total U.S. Audi sales nosedived, to the tune of 12,283 by model year ’91.
Indeed, such 5000 “journalism” seemed to become the template for future “dangerous vehicle” television programming. Two more recent examples are the side-saddle 1973-87 GM pickups and Toyota accelerator pedal debacle, in 1993 and 2009, respectively. In all three cases, the cars would not behave the way the grim-faced talking heads wanted them to behave. So of course, they immediately printed an apology, the appropriate decision-makers of the shows were shown the door, and the car companies were vindicated. Ha ha ha! As you undoubtedly have already guessed, I am kidding about the last part.
photo by PN
What ultimately caused the acceleration troubles was drivers simply hitting the gas pedal instead of the brake pedal (I repeat: Sound familiar?). As is often the case, the trouble was “the nut behind the wheel.” You see, the Audi’s pedals were placed rather close together, for ideal heel-and-toeing. While Europeans “got it” and used the placement the way it was intended, Americans, who were used to Caprice Classics and LTDs with a vertical accelerator pedal and a wide, horizontal brake pedal, might have not been familiar with two nearly identical and closely-set pedals (or three, if the car had a stick). And thus did fender-benders, injuries and lawsuits multiply like rabbits. Audi redesigned the pedals to be father apart, but the brand never really started to recover from the cluster-freak until the A4 appeared, in 1996.
image: audi.com
The last year for the infamous 5000 was 1988, albeit in name only; in 1989, a largely unchanged car returned bearing ‘100’ and ‘200’ nomenclature–ironically so, as the home-market 5000 had always been known as the 100, going back to 1968. The most obvious external difference was new alloy wheels. More importantly, there was a new TDI version, the first of many VW/Audi cars to have the soon-to-be-famous direct-injection diesel. The ’89 sported a 2.5-liter mill with 120 hp.
Interiors were still quite nice, and in fact were more pleasant than ever, with a handsomely restyled dash and slabs of genuine wood to dress up what had been the rather stark, functional interior of early 5000s. I especially like the gauge layout, in which the minor gauges march off in a line toward the passenger’s side.
There was no difference at all in the sheetmetal: The 1989-91 100 (the 200 was the fancier version, but otherwise the same) had the exact same shape as the ’83 original. And why should they change it? Everyone, and I mean everyone, was copying it, the 1986 Ford Taurus perhaps being the most obvious example.
Other than the aforementioned TDI, the 100/200 could also be had with a 130 hp, 2.3-liter inline five-cylinder engine, or a 2.2-liter turbo five in your choice of a 162-hp or (in 1991 only) 220-hp version.
image: bimmerforums.com
As a kid in middle school when the 100/200 was finishing its run, I remember seeing several of these cars in a most attractive pearl-white paint scheme with matching alloy wheels. This was well before pearl white was common, and I remember thinking how great they looked at the time. Rexroat Porsche-Audi, in nearby East Moline, clearly sold a lot of them. I remember seeing those pearly Audis well into the late ’90s, though Rexroat itself closed its doors about 1992.
image: lov2xlr8.no
But if even the 220-horse 100/200 wasn’t enough, as of late 1988 you could go with the new flagship Audi V8, which looked an awful lot like its C3 brethren, but was a unique model. Although it was in fact based upon the C3 architecture, it had its own unique sheetmetal, a longer wheelbase and a wider track.
image: lov2xlr8.no
But of course, the truly important part was found under the hood, initially in the form of a 3.6-liter eight that provided motivation to the tune of 247 hp at 5800 rpm. Also standard were quattro all-wheel drive and a Torsen rear differential. Available transmissions were a four-speed ZF automatic and a five-speed manual. A 4.2-liter model, which joined the 3.6 in late 1991, offered more power (276 hp), plus a new six-speed stick for those who wanted to shift themselves. Built through late 1993, this most interesting offspring of the C3 platform outlasted its donor 100/200.
Nineteen ninety one was the last year for the 100 and 200 models in their original form. In 1992, a redesigned C4 100 would take their place (which, despite its new sheetmetal and interior, still kept much of its predecessor within it). Just a few short years later, it would morph into the A6 we all know today.
When I saw this solid gunmetal-gray 100 just a few weeks ago, I had to pull over to check it out. I have not seen one of these in years, and this one seemed to have beaten the odds, especially considering that it bore a Massachusetts inspection sticker, since neither MA nor northeast IL are very kind to items made of metal. My only regret was it wasn’t pearl white.
These piles of junk got pilloried for the wrong reasons. They didn’t deserve to be victims of yellow journalism, they deserved to go down for being unreliable POS.
I was selling these at the time, plus my father had one, so I oughta know. The ’84s were the worst. If you got 2 weeks continuous service out of one before something went wrong, you were lucky. And the depreciation, oy vey! It was already breathtaking before the 60 Minutes hatchet job, then worse.
I had one, an 86 I think, white pearl. My Audi mechanic convinced me to get a Honda Accord. It well when it wasn’t swallowing its transmission . TWICE!
“My Audi mechanic convinced me to get a Honda Accord.” Pray tell, was this by giving verbal advice or just by handing you bills to pay? 🙂
My biggest gripe with Audis, many VWs, and many European cars in general is the need to have so many specialty tools to do so many basic things. Why should I pay $38 (wholesale) for a coil-on-plug extractor when just about every other car with C-on-P you can just pull it out? Its bad enough when a car needs frequent repairs but worse when they are difficult to work on and parts are expensive.
My beater utility vehicle is a 1993 Buick Century V6 wagon with almost 209K on the clock. Everything works and the car has been extremely reliable but when stuff does need attention the parts are usually dirt cheap and you can repair it blind with a $50 mixed tool set from Harbor Freight.
Amen to that, CraiginNC. My wife drives a Mercedes that I loathe for the exact reasons you just presented. About a month ago, one of the front parking light bulbs burned out. Would you believe you have to remove the headlight to replace said bulb, but in order to remove said headlight you have to remove the bumper fascia first? Genious engineering, isn’t it? I’ll stick with my declassé American cars…
Maybe it’s just me, but I always thought Audis of that era were the most “Japanese” looking of the German cars. There is just something cheap about their appearance. If a car maker wants to position their brand as aspirational, they need to be inspirational.
Completely disagree with this, and with the implication that Japanese cars looked cheap. Compare the details of this or an equivalent Honda Accord to the details of/on a similar era Cadillac.
My Dad has had an unhealthy obsession with Audis for the past 30+ years,fortunately without buying one.He only had FWD cars after buying an Austin Allegro(one of BLs worst abortions)They look nice but FWD isn’t for me.
Audi seems to have more lives than a cat. First, there was the LS series of the 70s. Then the Fox. Then this car. Then pretty much every one after it. Great cars to drive. Great cars to lease (as long as you have a warranty). Horrid, horrid cars to own and maintain.
Audi seems to have perfected what it takes to sell an expensive German car in the US – great looks, and great driving dynamics. I have known several people in my life who have owned Audis. None of the experiences was good.
All that said, these were very attractive cars when they came out, and I could see how someone would have found it attractive. I will even confess to coming under the spell of the concurrent Coupe GT. Fortunately for me, it was out of my price range, thus saving me even more headache than I got from the VW GTI that I eventually bought.
I had forgotten that Audi changed the name on this car towards the end of its life. Nice find, as there certainly cannot be many of these around.
That just kinda made me think. The Fox/80 was the badge-engineered VW Dasher…and it started a few trends.
First, it was the beginning of the end of air-cooled RWD Volkswagens. Second, it heralded the end of VW as a car line that was cheap to buy, run…AND MAINTAIN.
However it happened, NSU/Auto Union imparted a different mindset in Wolfsburg. I loved my Super Beetle but I’d never buy one today.
I will also confess an unnatural attraction to the newer Audi A8. They are stunningly beautiful, to my eye. However, a number of years ago, I had a case in my office where some poor dumb bastard in a rusty, uninsured Chrysler LeBaron, crossed a center line and hit a guy’s fairly new A8. The repair cost on the Audi was simply eye-popping. So much, that my file was full of pictures of some repair tech holding individual parts and pointing out damage so as to justify the cost of the new stuff (all from the local Audi dealer, of course). It has been awhile, but I believe that the repair came in around $40k, and this was over 10 years ago. That file scared me straight when it comes to owning an A8.
The cost of collision repair for that A8 was most likely the result of the advanced all-aluminum structure and body that Audi has used as a selling point for the A8 for years. Great idea in an ideal world (light weight but strong) but a terrible idea in the real world where collisions happen and need to be repaired. I had minor body done on an Audi once around 2000, and the shop bragged that it was one of only a few on the entire East Coast approved by the factory at that time to do collision repair on the A8. I was instantly horrified by the idea, as it was obvious how much repairs would cost if only a few specialists can do it.
The first all-aluminum car (of modern times at least), the Honda (Acura) NS-X was the same. One was entered in the 1991 or 1992 Bathurst 12 Hour race, and heavily crashed in practice. I don’t recall the detail but the initial advice was “can’t be fixed”, however the repair crew on site consisting of Tafe students made it happen with some fairly extraordinary effort, so the car made the race. The amount of force they needed to straighten the chassis rails was many times what a normal car would need. Of course that was quite a different scenario than normal road use.
On the other hand between high/ultra-high/etc strength steels and larger panel stampings, eg the full side of the car, where manufacturers are very conservative with their approved repair procedures, many cars are becoming ridiculously expensive to repair.
I think you hit the nail squarely on its head, and it’s an ailment that has spread to other German marques: Great to lease for a few years, a financial horror to own for the long run.
Two things spring to mind when seeing this:
“Higgins, I need to use the Audi.”
“Oh my God, Magnum, what did you do to the Ferrari?”
and
“Journalism”. I did watch Bambi as a child, so I won’t say anything, but it sure comes to mind.
More memorable to me than unintended acceleration were the ads for the first Audi 5000 in the US, with the female German engineer in the lab coat. Why a 5 cylinder engine? “Because 4 is too small, and 6 is too bulky.” (Said with German accent).
I never got the auto press’s infatuation with the looks of this car. At the time, it looked to me like a dumb old vacuum cleaner. And I hated the rear wheel openings. To the extent the Taurus copied it, I would say it was in the general proportions. But overall the Taurus was a much better looking car. The Eagle Premier seemed to me to be a more direct cribbing of the Audi.
In anticipation of comments on unintended acceleration, and in the hope I am not spreading misinformation, I recall a magazine (Car and Driver, I think) doing a pretty detailed analysis of the 5000 in response to the 60 Minutes hatchet job. And IIRC, the pedals on the Audi weren’t spaced too closely; rather, both pedals were a good deal farther to the left than on other cars… something like five or seven inches. So a panicked driver understandably might stomp the gas pedal, because it was located where the brake was on most other cars. Which to me means that Audi shouldn’t be fully absolved for the problem, despite 60 Minutes’ hack journalism.
well put. AUDI did not ‘know’ their customer…
Not sure I’d say Audi was “absolved.” They didn’t deserve the near-banishment they got, but pedal placement was a contributing factor, and bad UI design falls into the category of “mechanical or engineering issues” in my book.
It wasn’t a “bad” user interface, just incompatible with the outdated software in American brains at the time.
The scene from “Ferris Bueller’s Day Off” in the second photo may be the 5000/100’s most memorable cinematic appearance. The red 5000 sent a statement that Ferris’ parents were bright, successful people, just as the pale blue Reliant/Aries that the school principal drove while chasing Ferris stated that he was dull.
Regarding the statement in the first paragraph about Audi’s status in Europe being higher than in the US, it is supported by almost any evening news or CNN clip of European heads of state and prime ministers. Their official cars are usually Audi A8s, most likely the long wheelbase model, with the Mercedes S-Class rarely seen these days.
I am partial to these cars, having once owned a used mid-90s Audi S6, the last descendant of the 5000, with the final version of the turbocharged 5 cylinder and recognizably related styling. It was a magnificent all-weather fast sedan, and it was a bargain because it pre-dated Audi’s comeback in the North American market in the late 1990s; no one wanted these cars when they were new, so no one wanted them used either. Like the Porsche 911 with its inherently flawed rear engine layout, the VW/Audi 5 cylinder was a cheap, bad basic idea that was refined into a very effective machine with a lot of effort and development over time. It was very reliable until it hit the 10 year mark, when it started to nickle and dime me to death (or rather 500 dollar me to death), at which point I sold it. I would never attempt to own a 1980s 5000, though, as it was universally considered to be terribly unreliable, with its major systems not yet refined to the point in the 1990s when they were finally made reliable. It is unfortunate, because the aero 5000 Turbo Quattro was the most advanced thing on four wheels when it came out, and a milestone car that had a huge influence on the industry during the 1980s. The Ford Taurus and other mainstream cars emphasizing aerodynamics comes largely from the 5000.
Sometimes movies provide interesting psychology of the times. Audis certainly tried to provide a certain cache that European cars provided before the premium Japanese brands came around. Audis were virtually unheard of in my neck of the woods back then (and still are rare now outside of the cities). A friend of mine locally here who is a real estate agent and active in our local chamber drives an 06 Audi A8 with the V8. His front suspension collapsed last year and even with a tremendous amount of dickering with the dealer it still cost him $3700.
As for Ferris Bueller, that movie contained a few interesting car gems and contrasts. Yes the mom drove an Audi 5000 which solidified her standing as a sophisticated suburban real estate agent, the principal drove a Reliant, and the children got either a computer or a car (daughter drove a Pontiac Fiero). Of course who could forget the Ferrari 250 GT California and their attempt to roll back the mileage, another stereotype.
Ferris’s dad drove the Audi; his mother drove a K-based Town and Country wagon. Presumably the wire wheel covers and “woodie” trim were enough to distinguish it from Rooney’s diminutive Reliant.
Not to mention Ferris’ sisters white 2M4 Fiero, with the speakers in the headrests. Ferris Buellers Day Off has some interesting car casting.
Well those woody wagons and the T&C convertibles had minor cache in the 1980s along with the Jeep Grand Wagoneer which ironically at one point had the highest average income of any new vehicle buyer. I haven’t seen a woody wagon in forever for sale, but when I do see the T&C convertibles for sale in decent condition that have not so cheap prices. And the Grand Wagoneer is getting expensive for choice models.
I had to laugh when Ferris said in the movie “she got a car I got a computer” I mean even in 1985 computers were not as expensive as the Fiero but certainly not like the $500 deals you can get at Best Buy.
Up until the mid late 1980s, you would see Checker Cabs in NYC regularly then all of a sudden they disappeared rather quickly and within a few years everything was Crown Vics. I wonder if NYC passed cab laws.
I have thought about doing a “Curbside Classics of Ferris Bueller’s Day Off.” There are so many: the Ferrari, a Checker cab, Jaguar XJ6, etc. The dash across Ferris’ suburban neighborhood, in which the red Aud 5000 appears, probably will have a dozen or more momentarily.
This seems to be a pretty comprehensive listing, though I’m sure there’s room for a CC take on the subject, too!
http://www.imcdb.org/movie_91042-Ferris-Bueller-s-Day-Off.html
Don’t forget Cameron’s “piece of shit” (or “piece of tin” in the edited version) Alfa-Romeo.
Cameron’s POS is an Alfa Romeo Alfetta which had to have been extraordinarily rare when that movie was made. A quick scan of Google says that the cars were more popular in the 1970s and officially retired as a production model by 1987. Gosh the more I think about it, I wonder if all these cars were placed in the movie intentionally.
I CRAVED an Audi V8 with a 6-speed as a kid. They sound fabulous and the performance was pretty damn decent for the times.
Today I think the “UFO brakes” would be the biggest reason for me to stay away.
In highschool (late 90′s) one of my buddies inherited an Audi V8 from his dad (auto though). It was still a very classy ride at the time.
What I remember was us asking “what kind of car is this? Audi what?” and he’d say “I don’t know. Just Audi with a V8.”
Putting my anorak on for a moment, the refreshed 100/200 did not have sheetmetal that was entirely identical to the 5000 – note the flush door handles replacing the grabber-style handles. OK, anorak off now.
Over here I believe the 200’s came with the 5 cylinder turbo and the 100’s did not. Also the 200 had the quad headlights and I think the taillights were all red and not amber and clear.
The original 80’s 5000 was a good-looking car to begin with, and I think it just kept getting better with the ’92 update and ultimately the Audi V8. Although I don’t think I’ve ever seen the V8 in person, I remember a green C4 100 I always used to go by if I every walked home from high school in the years before I drove. Such a great looking car even so many years later.
I walk by a would like to be, upscale used car place on my way to collect my car from my mechanic. Once, I saw an Audi V8 on the lot and I immediately imagined myself in a magical world. A world where every car is a paragon of reliability, where repair costs are within a normal human’s realm and where rust has nowhere left to sleep. I have since woken up.
I still hear the phrase “I’m Audi 5000” from time to time, used as a substitute for “I’m out of here.” I’ve never owned or even test-driven an Audi, but from some of the comments above, perhaps that old cliche should be used by someone on their way to see a doctor, meaning something along the lines of “I am prone to breakdowns and require frequent maintenance.”
Ha– I saw a 1st gen in Marin CA about 15 years ago. It had a license plate frame that said “Don’t worry- it’s a stick!”
My parents bought an Audi 5000 when I was a child. It was beautiful (quite modern looking), comfy, etc. It was completely unlike the big American boats of the time (which I loved and love). But I remember all the problems…and I was a very small child. Guess who refuses to buy German?
Drove an used low mileage Audi 5000 right after tail end of all the controversy, hence the very low used price. I remembered it being an OK car, but no where as nice as a Nissan Maxima (1990). The worst part was the awful rubberband power steering. Yes, I understand the “Autobahn sneeze factor” , but it’s was no fun fighting the steering on every turn. Foreign car makers can complain all they want about American needs in cars, whether its wider spaced pedals, cup holders, decent air conditioners etc., but that’s what good companies do when they want to succeed in foreign markets.
I am afraid that I agree with Roger. These cars were well on their way to the sales toilet before 60 Minutes did their hatchet job on the 5000. Really, no company could sell a product this bad in America and get away with it and these cars were hideously bad. Transmissions, cracked heads, exploding batteries (which would destroy the car since it was under the seat) leaking steering racks, you name it, these cars had it.
These things depeciated so badly that in no time, there were in the hands of goobers, who would not realise that the 5000 had a special (read dealer only and expensive) fluid for everything. Failure to use said fluid meant your 5000 would disintegrate even faster, if such a thing were possible.
The sad thing was the first 5000 I ever drove was a revelation: I had never thought an FWD car could drive so well. Excellent seats, nice driving position, roomy interior and even reasonable power from the inline 5.
Great idea, awful execution.
Someone told me the steering racks were GM-sourced. I don’t know if it’s true but a lot of other things were, like HVAC controls, power seats, etc.
In Canada there was something called the Audi card, which was a 3 year no-questions asked warranty that replaced anything that failed. The fact that my dads car visited the dealer every other week for something should have prompted us to question what would happen when that expired. What happens is that the car loses half it’s value overnight. And the service departments were beyond atrocious. When the timing belt skipped in our garage one morning, I asked why they didn’t service it, since it did have about 100 k when it happened. The POS weasel service writer just walked away without answering.
I remember another time when the CLOTH braided (wtf!) oil cooler line (his was the rare TurboDiesel) blew out, stranding my parents once again. It was near the end of the warranty and I went to the dealer demanding they replace the other one too, since it couldn’t be far behind. Nope. That other one blew on me on a trip back from Edmonton in the fall of ’87, off warranty. Nobody would work on it in Lloydminster except a shop that specialized in custom turbo-propane heavy truck type stuff. An elderly man and his son. Absolute craftsmen. The son showed off his Turbo-propane Land Cruiser he built. Cool stuff. The dad fabbed up a new line for it. Saved me a big tow, and the price was reasonable , too. We got rid of soon after. Traded on an ’88 Accord EXi. Mom and Dad are gone, God rest their souls, but the Honda lives on in the hands of my brother.
The only part of the power steering/self leveling system/brake booster that I know was sourced from GM was the Saginaw pump but it was filled, or supposed to be filled with proprietary Audi fluid, and was never designed for use as a suspension leveling pump in addition to brake and steering assist.
Can’t comment on the 5000/100, as it was well out of my price range, but judging from the horrifying tales being told here I guess I didn’t miss anything. I’m another one that never cared much for the styling, thinking the lesser 4000/80 series was quite a bit tidier.
I’ve owned one Audi, an ’81 4000 5+5 (80 with the five cylinder) that I bought new, and I still miss it. Probably the nicest car to drive I’ve ever owned (well, not difficult considering it was preceded by lumps like a ’78 Malibu wagon, but still). Admittedly it ended up being fairly high maintenance (water pump, A/C compressor, the sunroof mechanism broke and a few other things) and some of the dealers were shysters (had one service department in Houston claim that the entire front suspension needed replacement at 60K miles, when there was no indication whatever of a defect). On the other hand, the body, interior and trim held up well and it still drove as nice at 90K miles as it did when new. So I guess they weren’t all hangar queens.
VW-Audi dealers are, always have been, and always will be, pond scum.
I like buying used cars to save on the depreciation. My ultimate purchase was a 1987 Audi 5000 around 1990, a couple of years after the unintended acceleration fiasco. I paid $5,000 for a near new car. It was an Anthracite 5-speed with cloth interior.
Very nice to look at and very nice interior. The seats were comfortable and upholstered in the best looking velour I’ve ever seen in a car.
The new ’84 body sat on a widened version of the old chassis which gave it a narrow track. You were always aware of the FWD layout, with the engine cantilevered over the front axle. That plus the narrow tires kept it from having a planted feel.
First gear was super low which made the car hard to drive smoothly. The steering wheel was canted which tends to happen when a wide body is used on a narrow chassis.
The 5000 wasn’t much fun to drive and I didn’t keep it long. It was reliable except for, of all things, the A/C head unit which was a GM part identical to the one in my 1986 Fleetwood Brougham.
My Dad liked my car so much he got a used ’87 automatic that came with an extended warranty. His transmission went out at around 100K and got it replaced free. It was a great car for him.
The ’87s were somewhat better than the ’84s. The ’84s were devil spawn.
I loved the styling on these cars. One thing always bugged me though. If you look at the right angle down the side of any 5000 you will see that the black rubber door guards always sagged in the middle. I found it hard to believe that a German company could let the 5000 be produced with this obvious installment problem- but they did, and for years.
Reliability might have been horrible, but I have never seen a rusty 5000 – or a rusty Audi of any sort, for that matter.
They were fully Galvanized, which resulted in spotless junkyard finds. .
I still believe the Lexus/Toyota unintended acceleration is real and an electrical problem.
But, the proposal appears to be more of a political response than a technological one. It ignores past recalls for UA events that are electronically caused; and it fails to base this upgrade on any statistical analysis. It merely codifies manufacturers’ current equipment without teasing out the differences between more effective and less effective brake override systems, such as the Toyota system, which doesn’t activate in some of the most frequently reported UA scenarios – when the driver’s foot is on the brake – or on no pedal. According to Toyota’s “Smart Stop Technology,” “the feature doesn’t engage if the brake pedal is depressed before the accelerator pedal. The driver must press the accelerator first and then depress the brake.”
http://www.safetyresearch.net/2012/09/06/the-pedal-error-error/
I agree and I maintain that the Audi unintended acceleration was real too. They used a hydraulic system that combined load leveling, power steering and brake assist with the brake assist at the end of the circuit with a small accumulator shared by the load leveling system. Throw in the crude FI system with a cold start injector and a Fidle (Fast idle) solenoid and high rpm, suitable to keep the engine running in sub zero temps, that doesn’t shut off until the engine gets to 120-140 degrees and you get the UA.
And applying the brakes, no matter how hard, only made the cars go faster.
I’m not sure if this is sarcasm or what but the fact is under the right conditions the hydraulic system can be filling the load leveling system and no matter how hard you press on the brake pedal it won’t do a thing. Unlike the common vacuum booster if you have loss of hydraulic pressure the particular hydro boost system Audi used in that era does not allow one to “power through” the lack of assist. I’ve had it happen on customer cars that did have the brake interlock switch. I’ve also had customers that experienced a rock hard brake pedal that would not slow the vehicle down at all.
Citroen managed to combine its hydraulic suspension braking and steering system without much trouble way back in the 50s, seems to me the much vaunted german engineering aint that great.
Well, not one incident in all of Scandinavia !
Not one incident in all of Germany !
Leaves only one option!!!
Pumping it up with air like 60 Minutes did really makes the cars accelerate, too.
Bryce, maybe Citroen designed their own pump to handle the entire system instead of buying the standard GM pump that was originally intended for just power steering.
I think you have overthought the Audi 5000 unintended acceleration saga. My friend purchased a new 1985 5000 turbo automatic.
It did not have self-leveling suspension, but it had of course the hydraulic brake booster. He and I were sitting in his car waiting for his wife to exit the store behind us, for he had backed in to the parking spot. The road in front of us was and is a busy two lane suburban shopping street with stores both sides, parking in the front.
Because we both owned Audis, we idly noticed a 5000 parked across the road in front of a store. A woman exited the store, got in the 5000. Next thing it shot across the road backwards and impacted the store my friend’s wife was in. It was a real WTF moment.
The woman got out of the car and started raving about UA. It was well-known (my mother had driven my 5 speed Audi Coupe through the back of her garage and blamed the car. Er, no Mum). The thing about the 5000 crash was that the woman’s car showed no brakelights as she whizzed backwards.
When the cops arrived and took statements, both my friend and I mentioned no brakelights, so one of them got in the car, started it and pushed the brake pedal. The relatively undamaged left rear lit right up. So, pedal mistake you’d think.
We certainly thought so at the time. However, a year later, I bought my friend’s 5000 turbo when he got a new Mercedes 300E. This was my first automatic so I was careful for a while. The retrofit shift interlock had been added. It always seemed to take several seconds to engage reverse, but not always. Warm engine, none of this 2500 rpm stuff. So I’d select R, turn to look out the back, gas it – and nothing.
So I’d turn toward the front just as the gear engaged, the car lurching backward and inertia causing me to floor it. Guess what? UA. Always managed to stop. Demonstrated it to all and sundry. Nobody was interested. I took the $5K goodwill and bought an ’87 4000q after six months of 5000T ownership. More my style.
When I was a teen, the previous generation had started to become popular in my neighborhood as an alternative for those who were getting disillusioned with their big Detroit Olds, Buicks, and Cadillacs, but perhaps weren’t quite ready to move into Mercedes yet. The new one, though, was really all over the place. My dad, who had always bought American until our 1982 Celica, really wanted one of these. He had always bought his cars, but for various reasons, had the good sense/luck to lease a 5000, in 1986. Great looking car, and it drove beautifully, even with the 5 cyl/3 speed auto, and was very comfortable, with its leather/Alcantara seats (it was a 5000CS, which was some kind of special edition with unique wheels, seats and the rear lights of the turbo). But while I don’t remember anyone becoming stranded, I do remember my mother always complaining about “stuff lighting up on the dashboard” and worrying about problems, and I remember a lot of trips to the dealer. My father was quickly cured of this, and, after the lease ended, returned to a succession of Toyotas for many years after.
I really liked driving this on my visits home, and remember the distinctive thrum of the five. I always loved the later V8/5 speed quattro, and thought they were great, ballsy alternatives to BMW’s. Other than the narrow track, I think these still look great today. I miss nice clean looking bumpers with some black rubbing strips, compared to the giant blob like front ends today, full of plastic, which cost $3500 to replace for what should/used to be a minor repair.
I am – again – astonished about all the hate German / European cars get around here. These Audis were anything but POS. Maybe these cars just don’t /didn’t get proper servicing in the U.S.?
In Europe, the C3 Audis were and are known as very well made (first cars on the market to be fully galvanized) and very reliable, esp. the 5 cyl motor will run literally forever. A friend had a 100 Avant 2.3 with way over 400.000km on the clock and still going strong. was the first car I drove 140mph in and I still remember the shock looking at the tach – it was so quiet and stable at such high speed, i did’t realize how fast i was going. I felt like i was in a jet.
I’ll give the Audi kudos for galvanizing….never saw a rusty 5000. The engine may very well have been stout, but the rest didn’t seem any better than a Merkur (actually worse!), it seemed pieced together and not up to Mercedes or BMW standards.
In terms of construction, materials and sounds my 5000 felt like an oversized VW Dasher which isn’t a bad thing. It just wasn’t as robust and nice to drive as a Mercedes W124 but then again what was? Remember the Audi was a lot cheaper which made it a terrific value.
Things like the sunroof motor and cooling fan would get loud over time. The brakes had an artificial feel no doubt due to that oddball hydraulic system. I loved the sound of the 5-cylinder — so smooth and unique. A fuel sipper on the highway but could get thirsty around town.
Although the 5000 looked ultra modern there wasn’t much tech and most things were carryover. Same engine as the one in my Scirocco but with one more cylinder. It took them forever to replace the 3-speed automatic with a 4-speed. There was a simple, narrow beam axle in the back.
Total cost of ownership continues to scare me away from German cars, however much I may admire them, & regardless of whether they’re reliable. Some might say, they drive better, & that’s worth it. I reply, so what? They’re designed for driving conditions not many Americans encounter. E.g., there’s no place in my area I can legally drive my humble Civic anywhere near its handling & speed limits, so what’s the point of getting a superior German car able to ace the Nürburgring?
One cost example: Are there many German models which tolerate regular fuel? Premium, req’d by many of them, is usually 20¢/gal more here. If Toyota knows how to make engines tolerant of low octane, surely the legendary German Engineers ought to.
A few VW non-turbo gas engines (2.slow four and 2.5L five) are the only ones I know of. Both of those are pretty much exclusive to North America.
Thanks for the info. Now with the Golf, according to Edmunds, the 2.5L 5-cyl has more power but worse economy & is less refined than many of its competitors. Then there’s the TDI, but Diesel is even more expensive than premium at most filling stations here, so the MPG advantage will take a long time (if it ever does) to amortize the Diesel-fuel & MSRP penalty. The Golf sounds like an excellent car I would enjoy driving, but that’s not a good enough reason to swallow its cost disadvantages.
Don’t be fooled – Lexus cars recommend premium fuel, or did when I sold them back in 2006.
Toyota also recommends 91 octane for my ’04 Sienna, but they don’t *require* it. Otherwise that would’ve been a deal-breaker. After almost 100K miles, it seems none the worse for this.
During WW2, the Germans had to make do with low-octane aviation fuel (thus, fuel injection), whereas the Allies got American 100 octane, which made a difference with a Jerry on your tail; i.e., no detonation under War Emergency Power.
I cribbed this off one of the groups I belong to on Facebook, but it is a nice new Audi display from the early 1980s. I am sort of iffy on the church flowers on the stand but it is a seminal picture none the less.
“While Europeans “got it” and used the placement the way it was intended, Americans, who were used to Caprice Classics and LTDs with a vertical accelerator pedal and a wide, horizontal brake pedal, might have not been familiar with two nearly identical and closely-set pedals (or three, if the car had a stick). And thus did fender-benders, injuries and lawsuits multiply like rabbits.”
As far as I know, the unintended acceleration issue was specific to automatic-equipped cars. You do bring up an interesting point though. In C/D’s attempt to vindicate the 5000, I believe they mentioned that the car most commonly traded in for them was the Olds Cutlass.
I did not realize it was only the automatic-equipped ones. I was in 2nd grade when the whole Audi kerfuffle went down.
There may have been some incidents reported in manual-tranny cars, but to my knowledge, the issue was by and large centered on the automatics.
There were also a number of cases that went beyond fender benders, the most notorious being a woman who ran over her 6-year old son in her driveway and killed him. That was when the media’s assault on the 5000 really started to pick up momentum.
I also remember C/D running a follow up article after NHTSA’s report on the 5000 was issued around 1989 or so. Pat Bedard referred to the drivers as “dimly aware humans operating in borderline control of their vehicles.”
I was certainly not trying to banish anyone from the kingdom. I was, however, trying to put a halt to personal attacks that came off as a bit mean-spirited. There are other websites where that sort of thing is normal. Here, thankfully, it is a rare exception.
I like to think that most commenters here love their countries, and this is a good thing. However, we have readers who come here from all parts of the world to discuss cars. Let’s all keep it there.
Yes, and I am sure Paul would agree. Let’s keep it civil folks.
If things get this this out of hand again, I will assist as unofficial co-moderator (via comments).
Fun Fact! The Audi V8 motor was based on the upper architecture of the VW four cylinder motor, that powered the Golf GTi. Basically it was two VW fours sharing the same block. BMW did something similar with their first V12.
“Some might say, they drive better, & that’s worth it.”
Absolutely. I’ve been fortune to semi-own (like cats, Euro cars own you….) a handful of European cars (BMW, Fiat, Audi, Volvo, Saab) and every one of them was far more engaging to drive than any on my Japanese or US vehicles. When they ran. And that was the problem.
Thankfully I do have a Japanese Swiss army knife to balance out my current Saab, which is relegated to weekend pleasure business. I bought it 5 years ago off-lease, (50% off!!) and except for the hydraulic top mechanism it’s been fine.
I also hope to taste ownership of a Jag, Alpha and MB during the remainder of my life….
In 1987 I took a low mileage ’85 5000 Turbo on trade at my Volvo store. Wary because of the lingering effects of the UA hoopla, I made sure I bought it right. Or so I thought. After languishing on the used car lot for a couple of months, I ended up giving it to my father (who had often admired its looks). He drove it–and loved it–for nearly two years, during which time the only repair it required was a set of (admittedly overpriced) spark plug wires.
Two decades later, I ended up buying an Audi myself. Although it’s the smaller Golf-based A3 model, it’s far more packed with leading edge technology (like direct injection, dual-clutch gearbox, etc.) than that old 5000 was in its day. Nevertheless, in nearly 5 years it has not required a single repair–nothing but scheduled maintenance–making it by far the most trouble-free new (or used) car I’ve ever had. I’m not sure if I’m just exceptionally lucky, but when I read the reams of Audi horror stories on the Internet I have to wonder.
I have to assume Audi did something to these cars before it sent them to the US; here (Austria) they had the reputation of being unbreakable – the 5 cyl engine is well known for going to 200,000 miles and more before needing serious attention. I had one in the mid 2000s and now wish I never sold it. Things went wrong for sure (headlining, steering rack) but it was all self-repairable and not unexpected for a car with more than 100K on the clock. In fact, I got it after the camshaft belt went (yes) – somehow there was no damage. We replaced the belt/waterpump/tensioner and off it went. Oh: and they’re tunable up to about 720 hp – a friend has a 200 Quatro which we modified to look like a V8, fitted a 6 sp. box and Porsche 930 front brakes. Because of that slippery body he got a confirmation from the German police (at the princely cost of €300) of its top speed: 325 Km/h (yes, more than 200 MPH). And that was with only 450 hp.
PS: and of course, they never rust – a bonus anywhere were they spray slat on the roads during winter.
“Audi redesigned the pedals to be father apart, but the brand never really started to recover from the cluster-freak until the A4 appeared, in 1996.”
So what was it about the Audi A4 that managed to change people’s perceptions about the company? Or better still, what changed within that ten-year gap?
All you goof-offs talking bad about the Audi 5000 and Audi 100. I bought a 1987 Audi 500 in 1992 for $800.00.I drove that car until just here recently and never had to do anything to it except timing belt, fuel pump and filter bulbs brakes and tires. It has over 300,000 miles on it and now my son drives it everyday. I have a 1990 Audi 100 with over 250,000 miles on it and only have to do the usual maintainance stuff so if you have any sense about maintaining an automobile you would not be saying this junk. Evidently you just talking out your ass cause you just dont know
The Audi v8 Allroad is possibly the most universal-use machine on the road today – drive this and then try to justify a Range Rover.
I owned a (bought used in 1996) 1990 Audi 100 for a few years and the car was a pleasure to own. Very reliable. It was a fantastic road trip car and I drove it all over New England.
This is one of my past cars that I still dream about.
My personal history with the Audi 100 C3 started at the end of 1984, when my father received a new 85 kW, 2144 cc 5-cylinder 5-speed manual sedan as company car. Prior to this car, he rented (at company expense) a BMW 323i E30 in four door manual guise, because his previous company car (a 1980 Audi 100 GL-5) rusted out under him…
I loved that BMW so much. It came with all the status perception of the big BMWs, had a sweet 6-pot engine, and the trip computer, check control and powered windows deeply impressed my 8 year-old self. So, when the cameo beige base-spec Audi arrived, I was heartbroken by the retrograde step into a car with plastic wheel covers, electric nothing, and a smaller five-cylinder engine with a lot less power.
But…. Living with the Audi changed my mind over time. Sure, I was still miffed that my father didn’t opt for the better-equipped 100 kW version, but the cars’ inherent merits wore through my disgruntlement. It was incredibly comfortable, and turned long distance travel into a relaxing proposition. Among its virtues counted a cavernous interior, extreme quietness in the cabin thanks to that slippery shape and flush glazing, and it had a sublime ride quality, soaking up rough roads, railroad tracks and potholes with nary a shrug. And I loved the that cavernous luggage space – it could carry holiday luggage for a family of four without resorting to towing a trailer, something the E30 mandated.
And yes, there were some mechanical maladies, but most of those resulted from shockingly inept service agents rather than the car’s design or quality itself. A case in point: shortly the 45 000 km service, the previously faultless engine developed a severe bearing knock. After much arguing and a strongly worded letter to Audi’s South African head office, the engine was exchanged – for a guaranteed factory remanufactured engine, at the cost of Audi SA.
The car duly arrived with its new-old engine, but the performance was way off even the car’s normally lethargic standard. A couple more unsuccessful dealership visits, and my father got fed up and looked at it himself. Turns out the technicians fitted the cambelt with incorrect camshaft timing. 45 minutes of DIY and some light swearing, and the car was running better than standard….
Why did the first engine die? Turns out the service technician started and drove the car, after forgetting to replace the engine oil he drained but 10 minutes ago. Nonetheless, by the time the Audi’s duty as company car was coming to an end, it was pretty well sorted thanks to all those dealership visits (and a helping hand from my car-savvy dad). The bodywork, paint and upholstery were still in perfect condition, and the car was mechanically sound. So, at four years of age and at 120 000 km, my father bought it from the company at a seriously reduced price. This is where things get interesting.
The year was 1989, and a certain Germany tuning company had set up shop in
Johannesburg. German born and Oettinger trained, Helmut Baumann performed German-spec conversions on most of the VW and Audi products on sale in South Africa through High Tech and Performance Centre. He built 2.0-litre 8V and 16V Golfs and Jettas by 1987 (long before they became official VW products), did work with Wasserboxer T3 Transporters (2.3-litre fours and WBX6 sixes), and did some work on the Audi 5-pot as well.
Now, seeing as our beige C3 came equipped with a 4+E manual transmission and only 85 Pierburg-carbed kW, it was a prime candidate for some upgrades. It disappeared for a few weeks, only to return with a big-valve (40mm inlets, as I recall), diesel-cranked and bored-out 2.6-litre engine. Peak power didn’t change much, but it gained a massive slug of low-and midrange torque, finally curing its gutlessness around town. Top end power joined the party a few months later, when my father added a custom-fabricated Weber twin carb setup: an IDA3 fed the first three pots, with another IDA on the rear two. It helps having industrious Italian friends with an Alfa-Romeo shop…
The result was a 7000 rpm screamer engine with lots of easy torque and surprisingly good consumption. Power output went up to the 150 kW range, and torque peaked around the 250 Nm mark. Combined with the 4+E gearbox, it made for a formidable high-speed cruiser, once easily completing a 1600 km (1000 mile) trip in 12 hours flat – four up, plus holiday luggage, including rest- and fuel stops. That car stayed with us till the beginning of 1994 (at 340k km), and ended up sharing many of my personal milestones – including my first legal solo drive, and my first drag race. I won.
Importantly, it was perfectly dependable for the last 6 years of its time with our family. I wonder if the US market cars got their reputation of unreliability due to an apparent aversion to preventative maintenance or shady servicing? If you kept to the cambelt/water pump/sump service regimen as prescribed in the manual, and exclusively used OEM transmission- and hydraulic oils, and fixed whatever small things do wrong (no more than our neighbours’ Cressidas, Ford Sierras or BMW 5-series, though), they did have potential for really good service life. The same applies to my last Audi too, in fact – a 1997 B5 A4 1.8 which I eventually sold at 530k km, and it’s still going as of 2 months ago…
This is what happens when I take some time to peruse old CC articles. I love this site.
Weird thing is? This body shell was sold to the Chinese and repowered with a chicom built Chrysler 2.2/2.5 turbo. Did quite well over there .
Haven’t seen one of these in years, yet BMWs and Mercedes of this era are still everywhere.
My parents tended to drive their cars unitl they die. We had a 1970 Audi 100LS and a 1977 Audi 100LS. When the 1984 Audi 5000S came out in the USA my dad wanted one. I remember they also looked at a 1983 Mercedes 300D Turbo Diesel. Too expensive.
From what I recall the 1984 Audi was ~$15,000 and the 1983 300D was about ~$30K
The 1984 5000S won and my dad drove it, but only until 1990. Pretty short life for his tastes. I always reminded him that statistacally that 1983 Mercedes 300D is still driving flawlessly on the roads today.