This Navy Reserve P-3 Orion maritime patrol craft based in Washington makes occasional visits to Eugene, using the airport for repeated touch and go practice. That means literally overhead, when I’m at Jerry’s in their outside lumber yard. So I whipped out the camera and peeled off a few shots as it slowly whooshed by overhead. Based on the Lockheed Electra, this is one of three aircraft types still in military service that are over fifty years old, and is scheduled to be replaced before long. Sorry for the crummy picture; the blobs are grains of dust in my lens that show up on full zoom. So here’s a better shot:
I have a soft spot for these, as I used to see them constantly from our house in Los Gatos, coming in slowly over the Santa Cruz mountains for a landing at Moffet, where the giant dirigible hangars are. The dirigibles were used during WW2 for a similar role, patrolling the coast for approaching ships. The Orion’s role is primarily for submarine detection.
The P-3 was scheduled to be replaced by an updated version, the P-7, but the order was cancelled after the end of the Cold War. The P-3 joins the B-52 and KC-135 as the oldest planes still in service, all three designs being over fifty years old.
One, and sometimes two, of the Allison T56 turboprops are shut down while on patrol, to conserve fuel and increase range. The longest flight of a P-3 was 21.5 hours. Potential crew members are screened for ADD 🙂 The P-3 will begin to be replaced shortly by the P-8, based on the Boeing 737-800 airliner.
The P-3 is of course based on the Lockeed Electra, which entered service in 1958, just before the jet age. It suffered three fatal crashes, requiring extensive modification. That scared off the public, and the Electra was built only in modest numbers. As a aconsequence, they were not a common sight, even in the sixties. But PSA was still flying some in the first few years after I moved to CA in the mid-late seventies. Once the problems were fixed, it was a reliable and efficient workhorse.
That would indeed be a cool sight. Reminds me of a few years ago when I saw a B-24 Liberator lumbering along in the sky above my office parking lot. The WWII-era piston engines added another dimension. Still, even those big turboprops had to sound pretty nice.
Your history on the Electra is helpful – I had heard of it, but was having trouble placing it. Now I know why.
It should/would have been a successful plane, on shorter-medium haul flights until the 727 came along. The 707 and DC-8 were not suited for those kind of legs. Instead, airlines hung on to their workhorse piston-prop DC-6s, although United did fly the little Caravelle jet for some years.
I have 3/10 hour logged in a B-17, signed off by a WWII veteran who is a CFI and was sitting right seat. *That* was a cool experience. Great post, Paul.
Lockheed pretty much owned the maritime-patrol aircraft market, starting with the WW2 Model 14-based Hudson popular with the Commonwealth.
Hopefully the Collins Foundation schedule includes your part of the country. They have flyable WW2 types including a B-17, -24, -25, & if you really have the $$, a P-51C. A couple yrs. ago my son & I flew in the B-25 for $350 ea. (100 octane avgas & liability are among the reasons for the high cost). A *very* noisy aircraft, so they give you earmuffs. I understand crews often suffered hearing loss.
+1. I’ve been fortunate to fly on the B-17 twice, and the B-24 once. Still hoping to get a ride on “Betty Jane” (the TP-51C) before I die.
Collings now also flies a replica of the Messerschmidt Me 262, the world’s first operational jet fighter, on the “Wings of Freedom” Tour. It just visited Santa Fe, NM with the other three aircraft last week (and the week before that, the CAF had its B-29 Superfortress at the Albuquerque airport.)
Built in 2006, the Me 262 appears authentic but for its avionics, and the GE J-85 turbojets replacing the original German engines. Rides are available on it, too, but you need a private pilot license in addition to lots of $$$$.
You’re right, it’s a TP51-C. I heard of their -262 as well. I understand it’s a reproduction built to print & authenticated by EADS (which since 2000, controls Messerschmitt’s corporate legacy) as an authentic airframe. The firm which built it is in Everett, WA, which makes me suspect a lot of Boeing veterans work there.
Tucson is a great place to see aviation Curbside[?] Classics; we have the Pima Air Museum, AMARC, DMAFB, & the AZ Nat’l Guard. The latter fly F-16s out of Tucson Airport, often training foreign operators (I hear they make money this way). Love those afterburners at dusk. DMAFB is interesting too, for they get foreign & Navy visitors from time to time; I saw some Tornados fly right over the road, but could not make out their nat’l markings. And we sometimes see airshow training flights over our home, like a P-51, F-4, & F-22 all in formation.
Tuscon is great. I’ve only been down there to visit Pima once, but I can get lost for hours viewing spotters’ photos online from around DMAFB.
The best we get around ABQ are CV-22 Ospreys and Pave Hawks out of Kirtland… and the occasional F/A-18 formation stopping to refuel on a cross-country.
I got my “Betty Jane” ride last weekend! Santa Teresa, NM to Marana, AZ (north of Tucson.)
Lots of aileron rolls on the way there, but my favorite part was flying formation with the B-24J during a fly-by on departure from 5T6.
Unfortunately, in World War II most crews suffered death before they could hearing loss.
These things were just replacing the P2V as the antisubmarine plane of the Navy when I was stationed at the Naval Station in Argentia, Newfoundland in 1965. Who knew at the time that it was going to turn into such a workhorse. Btw rubbed shoulders with the B52 in Guam. The pilots thought it funny that even in 1978 most of the planes were older than the pilots.
Does the military still use the C130. That should be getting up there in years as well. Love seeing the old planes still fly.
The P2 is still in use as a forest firefighting tanker. Good planes fly forever. A company in Oshkosh is upgrading DC-3s with turboprops to keep them going. I have a feeling the P3 will find a new life after the military retires them.
Yep, the local ANG flies them over our farm frequently. Apparently our barn is a visual waypoint…
C-130 is still in service with USAF, Navy, Marines, CG, & air forces all over the world. It has been in continuous production for over 56 yrs.
I see Hercs (EC-130s) flying out of DMAFB all the time. Incredible plane, both in design age & sales success. If only we could be as successful in exporting cars.
The antique B-52H (BUFF in Air Force slang) has the lowest operational cost of our bomber fleet & is expected to remain in service thru the 2040s. This plane began as a paper proposal by a handful of Boeing engineers working in a Dayton hotel room over a weekend.
Just keep replacing the cracked sheet metal and stuff new avionics in them and all is good.
They are still making brand-new planes. Until recently I was a crewmember on the most updated model, the C-130J, distinguished by its six-bladed propellers and black notch forward of the vertical stabilizer. It’s light years better than the previous models. The C-130E model damn near made me deaf and shook me to pieces.
These planes are also based here in Jacksonville, Florida at Jacksonville NAS. They are a very, very common sight on the Westside as they lumber in from their daily submarine patrols. They come in from the east, circle around the base and land facing east; final approach is over, you guessed it, a lumber yard across the road from the base. As they fly over the yard and highway, they could be no more than a couple hundred feet up. It’s weird driving down Roosevelt Blvd and seeing planes just over the trees going by. They sound like 1954 Mack trucks. We also call them “Hurricane Hunters” because they perform that mission for NOAA also. There was a picture taken by a boater some years back of a P3 coming over the river (from the east, remember?), it was on fire attempting a westbound emergency landing, sadly, it fell short with several casualties. These planes are part of the fabric of this town. Everyone will miss them.
I got to see one of those Orions air-to-air. He was following the St. Johns River as I puttered back to Haller Air Park (south of Green Cove Springs) from Palatka in a light-sport aircraft. This was April 2008. He was slightly higher than me, and at least three miles away, but it still looked damn impressive. Wish I’d gotten a pic.
I like these, too. From time to time I’ve seen them off Virginia Beach. There’s one more member of the 50-plus year club, though: the Lockheed C-130 Hercules, the all purpose, do most anything air transport. I’ve seen them coming in and out of Langley AFB since God knows when.
AFAIK, C-130 was introduced in 1957.
this is a most handsome design. Wow! Braniff…. now there’s a blast from the past. I remember my family’s return leg of our 1976 BA-NYC trip was in a Braniff 707–back when Braniff’s planes were painted like technicolor vomit. a long lost name like PanAM, Eastern, BOAC, et al.
My current place of employment is directly below the flight path/landing approach to the regional airport taht also services military flights. I’ve seen some crazy stuff…. the B-24 with a P-51 escort, many F-16s, Hercules, etc. But the noise the old birds make—-simply awesome.
This reminds me….. the Red Tail squadron is supposedly in town for a demonstration this weekend.—- need to look that up,
Here it is: http://www.wtxl.com/news/red-tails-project-to-keep-tuskegee-airmen-legacy-alive/article_af697df8-a5be-11e2-8012-001a4bcf6878.html
Hey FB
Greetings from Woodville.
Hey Norm!
Big Bend reunion in Curbside 🙂
Braniff gets you there in flying colors
Our 707, while not a camoflage, had a patchwork of garish colors that gave off the same effect. It was gastly to this 11 yr. od.
Buffalo Airways of Hay River, NWT still operates a small fleet of L-188 Electras, one of which was damaged during a right main gear up crash landing about a year ago.
The Electras are actually the newest big planes in Buffalo’s fleet, they also operate C-46 Commandos, DC3s and DC4s. One of their DC3s (C-GWZS) actually dropped troops at Normandy on June 6, 1944 and currently files a scheduled passenger service in Canada’s far North.
I remember the PSA (and Western Airlines) Electras at LAX. As a kid in the late 50’s – early 60’s frequently watched the planes land. The Electras had a distinctive whine-y sound, Overall, they were much quieter than the DC-6’s and Constellations. I think part of the reason for their lack of complete acceptance was their capacity. Significantly smaller than say a DC-6 or 7, and having turbines, their cost-per-passenger mile was probably higher.
Also wondered (but never found out) how much similarity there was between the Electra and the high-wing Lockheed C-130. Probably not much…….
Two things that Electras and C-130s have in common is they share the same engine, and they were both built by Lockheed. Otherwise they are very different aircraft designed for very different missions.
Actually the Electra carried a DC-6 load or more (90-100 passengers) & was at least 50 kts faster. Maintenance cost & reliability were much better with the turbine engines & jet gas was only $.10 a gallon in 1960. But it earned a bad reputation due to the series of early crashes & couldn’t compete with the short range jets that soon became available.
I saw these all the time during my two TDYs to Okinawa when in the air force. I believe they flew out of Naha naval back then.
I flew to and from Beale in a KC-135. Fun.
I liked the Electra design, what a shame they had problems with them early on, but on the cusp of the jet age, they were practically an also-ran from the git-go, however, TWA still flew Constellations quite often. My parent’s house in Jennings, MO, was on the flight path to and from Lambert, and those Connies flew LOW! So cool to see them flying over, I never minded the noise at all! Just as cool was the occasional Electra.
Escorting the USS Hancock, a carrier, back to the states. 1975 and the Cold War was pat of life in foreign waters.
Our destroyer escort found a Rooskie Echo 2 class nuke sub tailing the carrier. In those days the Reds tried to have a sub in shooting range of all carriers at sea should war break out.
Anti-ship missile equipped subs could be miles away and still be in shooting distance.
We commenced prosecuting the sub but limited in our actions, obviously.
However, hour after our after hour after hour of relentless LOUD sonar pinging can drive the sub boys nuts and they know their effectiveness at a sneak attack has been nullified.
That sub used every trick they had to break contact but we had the help of a skilled P-3 Orion crew to assist.
After MANY hours of the game the sub surfaced and took off in the opposite direction away from the carrier and our LOUD relentless sonar.
Great fun!!!!!
And those Orions with their equipment and a well-trained crew are awesome anti-sub weapons.
OH YEAH! Go Navy
OH YEAH! Go Navy
Great story, thanks.
BZ Obbop
As a submariner I personally find that to be pretty obnoxious behavior and am happy the object of your attention was on the other side. Given the right temperature gradient they could just laugh it off. Obviously these guys weren’t so lucky. I stood sonar watches on the boats and have had ringing of the ears from that stuff.
Sometimes planes were scary and sometimes not. This picture is from google so I hope this is of the genuine article. A chopper with a sonar array that can be raised or lowered had real pucker power.
BZ back atcha’. Ye lowly wogs, ye slimy landlubbers…. BZ is a naval “attaboy.”
We also had the shipboard LAMPS helo with dunking sonar, sonobuoys etc as did the P3.
That MAD gear was also a plus.
What caused the BIG aural headache was the SQS-26AXR sonar system.
When crystals (basically; rocks) are used as an underwater speaker the electrical power and then the converted audio power sent into the sea is immense. I was never on the receiving end of constant sound bombardment but have read and heard it can be horrendous.
Subs pinged us during exercises but it was but one or, maybe 2 pings.
Being aboard a target (bubblehead’s term for surface ships) if you hear that ping you are sunk!!!
Eeeeeeeeeek
Those old Rooskie nuke boats were noisy
We did a multi-day exercise seeking a boomer limited to a relatively small area of the ocean.
We tried endlessly to find the critter using every trick and equipment-type in the arsenal but it remained a “hole in the water” and we never found it.
Sure glad you bubbleheads are on OUR side!!!!!!
I also have some nostalgia for these. I grew up near Monterey, California (my parents still live there) and I remember seeing these on final approach at least once a day as a kid.
Interesting how some aircraft last but a few years on active duty (B-45, B-57, B-66 etc) but others go on serving for decades. The P-3 was a survivor, that’s for sure.
While there were only a few initial crashes of Lockheed’s civilian version, the Electra, they sounded particularly nasty in nature. Apparently, at high speeds, the outboard engines set up severe structural oscillations – which, uncontrolled, would tear the wings off the aircraft, leaving the fuselage to freefall into the ground. Yikes.
On a more positive note, I hope this isn’t the last Skyside Classic. There’s a whole other rabbit hole this site could go down if it delves into aviation history. I’ll admit to being enough of a plane geek that, flying for work earlier this week, I chose my flights based on the aircraft type rather than the time it would get me there/home, and I suspect I’m not the only one here with such tendencies.
So “If it’s not Boeing, then I’m not going”?
In this case, it was – 737-800 to Sydney and 767-300 back to Melbourne. Want to fly on the ones that the 787 is likely to replace in coming years, and I like the 2-3-2 seating in the 767.
I used to live in Sunnyvale along the approach path for the P3s in the 70s. Lots of sorties, usually a batch every 12 hours. On occasion, one would show up in camouflage (the Navy ones were solid, can’t remember if grey or white), apparently from an allied country doing training. Last camo P3 I saw was doing touch-and-goes at Moffett.
Last I heard, the C-130Es got retired from fire-tanker duty due to wing cracking. At least one (I think two) planes went down due to this problem. I’ve heard the P3 are being used as a replacement. Odd to see one without the MAD “stinger”.
FWIW, the Navy stopped using the rigid dirigibles before the war after they lost a bunch. According to Wikipedia, only about 2 (of a dozen or so) actually got retired without a crash. Blimps got used during WW-2.
There is still a version of the Lancaster heavy bomber from WW2 still in use today.
You mean an actual Lancaster (the best bomb-truck in Europe), or a Lincoln, or a York airliner? Back then, if you had a good heavy bomber, you turned it into an airliner, thus also the Boeing Stratoliner & Stratocruiser.
And you powered them by your best engines, thus Brits had Merlins, & the U.S. had Pratt or Wright radials. Sign seen inside a vintage B-24: “Jets are for Kids.” No mistaking the sound of those flying overhead; turboprops (as from P-3s & C-130s) sound totally different. BTW the Brits dominated turboprop airliners in the ’50s with the Viscount & Britannia.
Trivia: SecDef Frank McNamara insisted on standard nomenclature for military aircraft after he supposedly confused the Navy’s F4H with the F4D. He’s an important figure for those Down Under, as he also was largely responsible for the Ford Falcon, the F-111, & the conduct of the Vietnam War.
I’m guessing you mean the Avro Shackleton? It’s been retired now, but sure had a long life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Shackleton
Incidentally the B-52 is looking like being kept in use through 2045… which will make it 90 years in service. Mind blowing.
Here in Palm Springs we recently had a visit from the world’s only flying B-29 Superfortress bomber, named “Fifi.” It flew directly over the house on its landing approach to the airport, and then later that weekend on several demonstration flights. I was able to go and see it up close at the P.S. Air Museum, and climb through the interior. What a tour de force, it was breathtaking to see and actually touch this relic. The drone of those heavy engines as it lumbered over the house were incredible, you knew something spectacular was headed your way.
Great plane indeed, & you’re lucky to see one flying, but I worry for the flight crews & mechanics. If they employ modern digital engine controls, I’d forgive them heartily, for those Wright Duplex Cyclones were the most troublesome part of the plane. To save weight, the engine blocks (like the Tatra 87) had high Mg content, thus they were liable to catch fire when overheated, burning thru the main spar in little time (& bailing out of a spinning a/c is a challenge). It’s vital to maintain airspeed to keep them cool. This is why the B-29D/B-50 had Wasp Majors instead.
Part of the genius of LeMay’s revolutionary incendiary Tokyo raid was, the lower 8000′ altitude was much less demanding on the SuperFort’s engines.
The B-29 was known as the Washington during its onetime RAF service, & was copied by Tupolev (under Stalin’s orders) as the Tu-4. I heard that the Tu-95 Bear borrowed the Tu-4’s fuselage.
My favourite story about the Tu-4 – one that may or may not be apocryphal – is that Tupolev included an extra drill hole in the wing, an assembly defect on the particular B-29 they copied, fearing that they’d have incurred Stalin’s wrath for producing anything less than a perfect copy.
I heard that too, from Victor Suvorov’s “Inside the Soviet Army.” Stalin wanted them “alike as two peas.” The author gave the impression that Tupolev was not enthralled with the project, & who can blame him? What fun can a great designer have cribbing someone else’s work?
They had to convert all the English units to metric, and because of industrial convention, use a slightly thicker grade of aluminum, which of course made it heavier. Don’t know how well their engines worked.
The B-29 engine fires were usually at takeoff, where bailout wasn’t an option. The aircraft could carry a lot more than it was originally designed to do (true for a lot of WW-2 bombers and fighter-bombers), and so the engines had to work extra hard at takeoff. Once you got to cruising altitude, you could relax a smidgeon. Usually.
I’ve read that due to the overheating issues on the Wright/B-29, the usual “check the dual magnetos by cutting each one out” test was done during the takeoff roll. My father was with the air force (8th, on Okinawa), and he was extremely glad that he was a draftsman at HQ. He said he witnessed the eventful landing of Boch’s Car after Nagasaki–they lost a fuel valve and ended up landing with a few gallons available. They set off every trouble flare they had–no radio, low fuel, wounded on board (the last not true, but they were getting nervous)–to get a straight-in landing.
Good story. Along similar lines, I heard P-51 pilots would announce a one-engined landing as a joke on towers used to P-38s. Flying over Japan must’ve been more scary than over Europe, as the chances of surviving capture were pretty slim. Many got lynched (as happened more rarely in Germany), others might be tortured to death, imprisoned at places on the target list, or serve as vivisection subjects (Unit 731, q.v.). Read “Whirlwind” by Barrett Tillman.
Back in the 60’s, my father flew across the country from Perth to Sydney for business every few months (the equivalent of LA to New York in distance) Before the first pure jets were introduced in 1964 (the 727) his favourite ride was the Electra. It had a smoking lounge at the back of the plane, and he said it was much quieter and smoother than than the DC6. BTW the Beatles had an Electra to fly them around the USA on their first tour in 1964, and apparently their plane crashed and killed everyone on board a few months later.