For various reasons the 1961 Pontiac Laurentian has now moved on to a new home so the next iteration of the Affordable Classic series needs a fresh, new subject. This time around I choose to jump right off the deep end with this 1984 Innocenti Minitre SE. In this segment we take a look at the car in as delivered condition before moving to repairs and history in subsequent segments.
Jim Klein gets a shout out for being the first one to correctly guess this very tough clue. I think my leaf spring (singular!) clue threw off a few guesses. The rear suspension has a single transverse leaf spring in it for the record.
One day I will buy a car that does not come home on a trailer but today is not that day. The seller was good enough to deliver it for me as part of the deal which was fantastic as it has become a real challenge to rent car hauler trailers locally. Speaking of challenges the Innocenti is so narrow there was no tolerance for error in unloading down the trailer ramps. My eldest boy got the nod for steering duties while the seller and I guided and pushed.
I took a bit of a gamble as seeing it on the trailer at my house was the first time I really got a decent look at the car since it was stored in the seller’s Seacan. First impressions were that the body was almost completely rust free and very solid.
The seller had also a low mileage De Tomaso turbo version in front as well as a large cache of spares parts.
Still in the Seacan the engine looked complete but dusty. A very old and dead battery was close to the size the engine block. This is the non-turbo variant.
The wheels were originally steel but replaced at some point with ones from the turbo variant so they are TRX wheels and tires. The seller has a good set of tires for me which is fortunate as replacements are tough to find.
The seller has a large collection of classic cars including this 1966 Studebaker Wagonaire.
Yes, it has the trick roof.
Part of the problem with the Pontiac was it was so big it did not really fit well into the new house’s garage especially when trying to work on it. The small size of the Innocenti allows for plenty of room to work around it. The hood will need a bit of paint work.
I love the (perceived?) cost savings of the single reverse light. Does not do much for styling symmetry though.
The interior was pretty clean although missing a few small items like ashtray, cigarette lighter and radio blanking plate.
The gear shifter knob is interesting and was featured in a Guess that Shifter by Car & Driver a number of years ago. According to that link Car & Driver tested the Innocenti in the March of 1985 issue. I would love to see a scan of that test if anyone has it.
The gauges are different but more conventional than the turbo model.
The engine (a Daihatsu three cylinder) could use a bit of clean and assessment before attempting to start.
Well that is it for now but I will share more as I learn about this car in the next several weeks. Hopefully I will be able to get this rare and affordable classic back on the road before long.
I think you made a mistake getting this little car for the Pontiac. Getting parts is going to be tricky, especially on the road. But if you are up for the challenge, good luck.
It is not necessarily the smart choice but it is something interesting (to me – I like the oddballs) and each time I own something I learn a lot. It is probably close to worthless in its current state and even fixed up is not worth much to most people.
I was given a Fiat 600 some 40 years ago. What I learned is to never own another Fiat ever again. Well maybe a few exceptions…
I think your “innocence-ti” will be lost when your done with this thing! Good luck!
Good luck, will be following your progress!
I understand the attraction of a having a smaller car for your play toy. I love big cars but indoor space for storage and working on them can be a challenge.
This will be interesting.
I was close with my guess, something that was available in Canada and not the US. There was an Innocenti in my neighbourhood when I was a teen, owned by a very Italian family.
Gotta say that it does nothing for me, but I hope you enjoy it.
Now that Studebaker on the other hand!!
This is great, I would totally geek out over if if I saw it parked somewhere. One of my college roommates had a (new at the time) Daihatsu Charade with the 3cyl, it was a great engine and very fun to drive car. This should be somewhat similar, lightness is everything.
To me, this is vastly more interesting than the Pontiac, although that one was growing on me. Different strokes and all that…
BTW, the clue that got me on track was the TRX one. From that point on it was just a matter of a little research. The leaf spring was the clincher. I’m a little surprised at some of the other guesses though, how hard can it be to Google a picture of a particular thought to see if the angled shape of the turn signal is at all in the ballpark or not. The Plymouth Arrow guess in particular was interesting, it doesn’t even have a wrap around orange light in either version (car or pickup). Oh well, it was fun to see what people came up with.
The one thing that threw me a little bit is the (perceived??) gap between the taillight and the bodywork. It seems to be a lot bigger on your car, or at least in the clue, than any other picture I was able to find of other Innocentis.
I suspect that may be down to variations between particular cars and maybe the angle the photo was taken at. It’s certainly a case of ‘fits where it touches’. Those looking for neat, even seam lines should look elsewhere!
Actually, to some folks, it seems like cheating to google answers when “guessing”. That would be like playing Trivial Pursuit with internet access, and not really much of a game.
Not the same. It’s not like someone can google “What car did David buy” and get the answer as you could with Trivial Pursuit. And there were many (hundreds? of cars with TRX wheels including the Honda Odyssey Minivan of all things). I do look up my guesses to see pictures of them before posting responses though which is different than using an algorithm to drop the picture into to analyze and compare to existing web pictures automatically (which I don’t have or use but technically does exist).
It’s all good, we just have different rules for ourselves as we play the game. There are no hard and fast rules, and we all play the game differently. You checked on your guesses for accuracy prior to posting, while some just try to pick their answers from memory only and post. To me, that is like googling the answer in Trivial Pursuit to see if you are correct. That just makes sure you were right, and is no longer guessing, by doing research for the answer. Neither is better, neither is wrong.
Yeah when he said TRX wheels I googled the list of TRX equipped cars and immediately thought “Canada. Innocenti!”, but didn’t guess because I thought some might consider it to be outwith the spirit of things.
The point of Trivial Pursuit(TM) is to play it from what’s in your head. Other games can have different rules, tho.
I regret nothing. 🙂 I will enjoy my new toaster by myself and not share the toast.
Congrats for the new car! I wonder when I last saw one of these.
Love that shifter and those gauges – so ’80s it feels like being in Tron. Or Back to the Future, but with only half a V6 in half a DeLorean.
Was he not up for selling the ’66 Studey Wagonaire? That is very rare. Best of luck with the Minitre. I hope your Italian is good.
The rare Studebaker wagon is the first thing I noticed, as well. It’s the first time I’ve seen one of them in a photo, let alone in the wild.
It’s very difficult to imagine, but just like in the 1960’s, not everyone is clamoring to own a Studebaker 🙂
“It’s very difficult to imagine, but just like in the 1960’s, not everyone is clamoring to own a Studebaker 🙂”
Say it isn’t so!!! 🙂
Cute little car. It looks like it could be a little brother to the Toyota Corolla FX16 GT-S.
I wish I had paid more attention in the 70s and 80s to these Canadian market rarities.
I was a teen then, and collected brochures. Never crossed my mind at the time to check out a Skoda or Lada dealership.
You can’t be far off being able to get two of those into the same space as the Laurentian!
This got me curious. It is close to the 2x ratio. Dimensions are
Length:
Pontiac – 210 in (5,334 mm)
Innocenti – 123–133 in – (3,135–3,375 mm) – not sure why there is a 10″ difference – I’ll have to measure mine. Canadian bumpers?
Width:
Pontiac – 78.2 in (1,986 mm)
Innocenti – 60 in (1,515–1,530 mm)
The original Mini was 120.25″, so I’m guessing the 123″ is the original Innocenti version where the front and rear angled inwards rather than outwards and the bumpers were smaller.
Aside on the Issigonis Mini: When I was working in a Magistrates’ Court these often came up for ‘Dangerous Parts’. Almost invariably it meant either the front or rear (or both!) bumpers were missing. Behind these there are welded seams presenting quite a thin edge – add a little rust and it could be like a bread knife.
Check out the recalls from Canada Transport
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/7/VRDB-BDRV/search-recherche/results-resultats.aspx?lang=eng&mk=3678&md=0&fy=0&ty=9999&ft=&ls=0&sy=0
I wonder if they fixed any of these. Besides the seat knob they sound hard to fix on a low volume car.
Very cool! CC is the best for bringing me awesomely obscure makes and models with convoluted back stories. I wonder if the 3cyl Diahatsu engine is the same one that the Russians borrowed to put into their Oka micro-car in the 2000s to bring it to Euro-2 compliance. In that case, it was actually a Chinese licensed copy made by FAW.
Here’s a wonderfully old-timey website about the Oka, the Russian cousin of this Italianized-Brit.
http://www.okaauto.com/history.htm
I remember Okas were sold in BC maybe for a short time with an electric conversion.
Instruments are so similar to some Fiats…this is a Brazilian Fiat 147 Rallye dash.
As regards the reverse light, I’m guessing that at least in other markets (or maybe yours too?), the equivalent spot on the other side may be taken up by a rear fog light. If your market didn’t have this, the left side bulb holder may in fact even have the slot for it.
This is quite normal on Euro cars. There is a reversing light on one side and rear-fog lamp on the other. For the UK road-worthiness and emission test, the MOT, it only became a requirement for reversing lamp to work this year.
Some cars, like my old Vauxhall Astra, had fog an reversing lenses on both lamp clusters but only one was wired on each side. As you never see the back of your own car its a great way to save pennies.
I don’t even think there is a requirement for more then one reverse light on cars in the USA.
The 08-10 Scion XB only had one reverse light. It was not until 2011 that they moved the reverse light back to the taillights and added a second one.
Talk about going from one extreme to the other! Variety is the spice of life. I thought you meant single leaf spring as in a pair, transverse didn’t enter my thinking. But once I saw Jim’s answer I stopped searching. I was thinking maybe Daihatsu, never heard of Innocenti.
You mentioned a Daihatsu engine, likely from the G11 Charade, but is the design of the car based on the Innocenti version of the Leyland Mini which came out in the 70s? The dashboard is very eighties – the first picture before the close up reminds me of the digital dashes that looked so futuristic back then.
The body shell is based off the Leyland Mini but when A-series engine supplies dried up they swapped to Daihatsu engine and suspension.
I briefly wrote up a turbo variant a few years ago.
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/curbside-classics-european/curbside-classic-innocenti-turbo-de-tomaso-an-exotic-baby-turchia/
I assumed they switched to Daihatsu as they didn’t want a leaky engine and a dodgy gearbox. Why couldn’t they get A Series? BL/A-R not playing ball?
Were any of the components still interchangeable with Minis by that point?
I’m really interested in this. I’ve never seen one of these, and to my mind it seems like a really good development of the mini idea. That little 3 cylinder engine with the nice light chassis and a five speed box should make for a rewarding driving experience.
That’s because on the driver’s side is a rear fog lamp, as required by European (now UN) Regulations. One-and-one like this has long been a common setup in Europe, even on cars quite a bit flossier and costlier than an Innocenti. Certain Saab 9000s come to mind, for example.
I have to ask David, is this to get an early jump on the 2019 Great Beater Challenge? Or will this be a more serious upgrading endeavor?
One more question: Wasn’t this 3 cylinder engine used in a really small GM car? I think my aunt had one… Chevy Sprint if memory serves. Seems that car had a 3 cylinder. A rather odd (literally in this case) number of cylinders for a car engine.
If it works out I would like to take it on the Beater Challenge next year. Maybe then do a bike engine swap and go to the Grassroots Motorsports Challenge. We’ll see.
The Sprint had a similar but Suzuki three cylinder. Owning a three cylinder is sort of bucket list item for me too.
I’ve owned
Single, parallel twin, inline four, boxer four, inline six, V6, V8 and now inline three in bikes and cars.
Weirdest number of cylinders I got to ‘drive’ (if you want to call flying that ;o) was a vehicle with 7 cylinders (pictured below).
As for a vehicle for the ground, that would be a single cylinder motorcycle. It was a 600cc Yamaha dirt bike. It made the coolest sound at idle… a low frequency duke duke duke duke. Fun and full of torque!
Years ago a friend bought an old Suzuki 750 to use the engine in a go-kart, however the very same day he sold it for double the money to a guy who was building a collection of different cylinder counts. The Suzuki was much cheaper/smaller than a car and I think that brought him down to only missing 7, 9 & 11 cylinder engines (going up to 12 anyway).
I had read somewhere that the Innocenti was related to the Fiat 12?7/128? by way of the Yugo. Could be wrong but this does look an awful lot like the Yugo including the dash and such.
Well, it’s certainly unique! I’ve never seen one before and I doubt I’ll ever see one again.
@ RetroStang Rick: Yes, a three cylinder engine (although not this one) was used in the Chevy Sprint/Geo Metro, but that started life as a Suzuki.
There was a similar Italian market car at the same time by way of Autobianchi and their A112. This was loosely based on the Fiat 127/8 I believe.
Autobianchi was purchased by FIAT to try out new techniques, so FIAT could not be blamed if these went wrong.
The Autobianchi Primula was the first production car to have FWD with the gearbox next to the engine instead of in front of it (Citroen, Cord, Renault) or
the gearbox placed under the engine like Peugeot (204) and Mini.
Gianni Agnelli the Owner of FIAT had had a bad accident in a FWD FIAT prototype in the fifties so he did not like the idea of a FWD car.
Oddly enough, FIAT’s first FWD car was a van called the FIAT 238, it had the complete FWD train of the Autobianchi Primula, cappiche ?
The FIAT 128 was in fact an Autobianchi Primula with a FIAT body !
The A112 was launched as a prototype for the FIAT 127, however this car proved to be very successfull and although British car journalist Jeremey Clarkson claims the Vauxhall Chevette HS and the Sunbeam Ti to be the first hot-hatchs, I’m afraid the honor goes to the Autobianchi A 112 Abarth which is the real first hot-hatch.
I had an DeTomaso,with the 4 cilinder engine. Somewhere around 1986, same color red. Great fun to drive, untill it started to rain and you would more or less aquaplane your way home when you went over 100 km/ph. Also, lots of electrical gremlins in mine, but it sure is one of the cars I would not mind still owning and driving.
I’m trying to figure out if your are crazy, brave, a fool, or a complete genius… Either way I think it’s awesome!
Italian marque, Japanese engine, and some ties to England as well?
Certainly will be a high points scorer for the GBC next year!
And if you happen to need any Daihatsu parts, I will be in Japan next April, I’d imagine parts wouldn’t be too hard to pack in a suitcase to bring back if you need…
Thanks. I think most people would say crazy.
Yes it has English connections as the floor pan is at least historically based on a Mini.
I’ll let you know about parts, thanks.
I’ve since discovered none of the interior switches are hooked up – just random wires under the dash. On a car where I cannot get a wiring diagram. It will be fun figuring that mess out. For some reason all the lights are disconnected too so a mess electrically which I was not banking on.
Is this the same motor from the Mira\Cuore? I know there is a key version but I think threr’s a bigger one too. You can get half a Cuore shipped to you from Japan.
Too bad about the electrics, hopefully not too hard to figure out. Very cool little car though, looking forward to following along.
Curious about the tires, you mention there are other wheels that are a more common size. What are on it now?
The tires are close to a 12″ but in a metric/TRX size. 160/65 R 515. The spare tire is a conventional 12″ size. 155R12
Awesome! I just saw one here in BC and took me a few minutes of googling before I stumbled upon it. Very cool little cars, even more so because of their rarity in N.A.!
I’ve ridden a few Triumph triples (955 and 765 cc), and Yamaha triples, both old (1970’s XS750) and new (current Fz09). But I’m pretty sure I’ve never even ridden in a 3 cylinder car, neither Daihatsu or Suzuki/Geo. Nor Mini or Fiesta. Hmm, are triples making a comeback?
Yes, with the amazing power and efficiency they’re getting with modern turbos and direct injection, many manufacturers are going from a four to a three in their smallest cars. Wikipedia has a long list here of recent threes, from VW, Ford, Renault, PSA, Opel and BMW. Not to mention its use in the 1st-gen Honda Insight we saw a few days ago.
Cool find that will be a fun little car to play around with,Daihatsu had a de Tomaso version with turbo, anex GFs father had one the turbo engine uses a different block and bottom end sourced from a diesel, theres still a few Charades around with the three banger in parts must be available from somewhere.
if you get the innocenti bug the mini and the other bmc rebadges will be on your next list – if you really get the bug then make room for some two wheel lambrettas….
All of these small Mini- and Fiat 127/8 based hatches remind me of the couple of Yugos I had a couple of decades ago. I had never driven anything smaller than a VW Rabbit and those cars were about a half a size smaller. Absolutely terrifying in big city traffic, but with just enough HP and the grippy but skinny tires, a regular freeway on-ramp could be highly entertaining after a long day at work.
I hope you find as much amusement with your mini-car as I did mine.
Really, really impressed David. This is a Bertone highlight from the period, despite its size. It stands out as a clean and balanced shape at a time when the carrozzeria was losing its delicate touch. Nuccio was hoping the English would take up the body, but…
I’m so thrilled with this addition to CC, I’m willing to forgive the loss of poncho who was becoming like family to me.
Rammstein has just purchased a Fiat 131 Abarth, which I hope he brings to CC. Between that car and this, I’m in a happy place.
David, you’ve outdone yourself again. I would never have guessed this would be your next fatal attraction! I keep forgetting that these were sold in Canada.
As Don said so well, these are gems, stylistically. I was deeply impressed when I first saw pictures of one when it came out, and I couldn’t imagine how BL would not want to update the Mini with this.
I’m sure you’re going to have fun with this one. What’s the plan with the wheels and tires?
Would BL know a good thing if it landed and said “Hi, I’m a gift horse and here’s my dental records.”? They had a hatchback version of the Mini under development as far back as 1968 and several of their own Mini replacement programmes, including the oddly named ‘Barrel’ Mini before finally deciding they weren’t going to bother. They did assess the Innocenti and decided it was too expensive to build, but I suspect there might have been a good helping of N.I.H. in the decision too.
Not sure if it was a “not invented here” or a perceived increase in cost but looking back it sure seems like a obvious Mini replacement/update. Certainly better than they managed with the Clubman style front end.
As far as wheels and tires go I will be getting a set of good TRX tires from the seller. If that doesn’t pan out probably just a set of 13″ wheels from a Civic or similar as it appears to be a common 4×100 bolt pattern.
Hayabusa swap when? (Kidding, mostly.)
Well congrats on your “new” car
It should be interesting for you. Other then seeing a couple of Charades back in the early 1990’s in my highschool parking lot and the small fleet of Rockys Howard County MD used for the parks. I have not had much experience in this car maker.
Perhaps you are crazy for taking this journey? Perhaps I am also crazy for buying that 1994 Benz E320 that I talked about in that last post. A 24 year old luxury car…. But I am going to have fun with it and it is my money so that is that. In your case it is your money and your choice so take it and run with it.
Good luck on your project.
Hopefully you will be able to find wiper blades for this car?
Since my Innocenti Cooper 1300 I consider myself an Innocenti man.
These were cool, actually sub zero, and in my opinion this should have been the Mini’s successor, not the rather lame Mini Metro.
Styled by Bertone this was the perfect three door hatchback for narrow medieval Italian city streets and a very peppy car.
Unfortunately in their eternal wisdom British Leyland decided otherwise and left Innocenti for what they were.
Alejandro de Tomaso bought the lot and had to look for an engine supplier, Daihatsu were willing since the Italians had a 20% import ban on Japanese cars for Italy, these were the pre-EU days when local governments decided where and how to put a ban on hostile imports!
These have been made for quite a long time since deTomaso did not have the money to develop a new bodyshell and the design was quite time resistant.
Body parts should not be a big problem and I can tell you the Japanese three cylinder will perform much better then the old Austin A series engine ever did in these cars.
You can always go to the Dutch Mini club who also allow these under their members.
And they drive great !
Cool car buddy
I had a car with TRX wheels/tires (84 Ford EXP). All 4 tires were down to the cords when I bought mine in 89, and I thought the replacement ones were breathtakingly expensive, when the car was just a semi-common used car… I can’t imagine trying to find TRX tires nowadays! IIRC it was going to cost almost as much for the 4 tires, as I paid for the car itself. So I just got a set of 13” Escort wheels from a junkyard. Good luck with your project, it looks like it will be a ton of fun when it’s done!