(First posted 12/29/2013) The burned van had been towed away, the rental car was costing money, and we were about to move halfway across the country but needed a second car beyond the Tahoe and were not ready to commit to a new car payment. As luck would have it my wife’s friend Erin called and said she was moving away with her FBI husband…
Normally not a big deal but they were moving to Saipan (who knew the FBI maintained operations well away from the 50 states, I had no idea) and hence needed to liquidate many if not most of their belongings including her car. Her husband had a government issued Crown Vic which would just get reassigned but she was having trouble selling her car, maybe we wanted it?
Normally selling a Honda, let alone a Hybrid, would be a non-issue in the San Francisco area, however she had rear-ended someone on the freeway several months back and had it repaired but the resulting CarFax Scarlet Letter doomed any chance of selling it privately due to the magic words “airbag deployment”. People would call, she would explain, they would say no thanks without even looking.
She was at the point where she had been going to dealers to get their offers, the most recent of which was a mere $9,000 from the local Toyota dealer and which she was planning on taking if I was not interested. So I took a close look. Apparently traffic had stopped in front of her on the freeway and she hit the rear of another car which deployed the steering wheel airbag and damaged the front.
Looking at it everything looked perfect. The paint matched, the panel gaps were good and the VIN stickers on the hood and both fenders were original. So it looked like the bumper cover, airbag, and probably the bumper internals had been replaced. She had all the receipts but looking at it, it seemed perfect.
I drove it around the block and figured this would do especially at the bargain price. I offered her $500 more than the Toyota dealer and signed the paperwork later that evening. Done deal, not bad for a car that stickered for $23,200 just a couple of years earlier and had less than 30,000 miles on it.
I was mindful of the fact that I had relatively recently sold a Civic that was very similar to this one because I was kind of bored of it, but also appreciated its virtues and knew it would be a fine car. I was also interested in living with a Hybrid, having never done so beforehand. I figured this would not be a long-term relationship but more of a somewhat extended test drive (which of course pretty much describes many of my cars if I am being honest).
So what is different between this and the normal Civic? Well, first of all the color and the interior. The exterior color was called Magnetic Pearl, which to me always looked like a dark blue or blued steel color but to others looked more charcoal. Inside however was composed of a mix of Blue and a Creamy Gray color, a very different and distinctive combination that was welcome by dint of not being just overall gray or beige. Neither the outside nor the inside colors were available on non-Hybrid Civic’s.
The exterior of the Hybrid Civic also wears different wheels that are smaller (15”) and look more “aero” than the standard versions, the front bumper is shaped slightly different and the trunk lid sports a small spoiler that apparently smooths airflow a bit more. In addition, there are supplemental turn signals in the mirrors and the antenna is a small one at the rear of the roof.
Not my actual seat…(mine was blue and not cut away.)
The most notable things on the inside besides the colors are the fact that the rear seats no longer fold and that the trunk space is smaller due to the battery pack. Also, every accessory that could be power assisted IS power assisted with the exception of the hand brake which still hit my knee constantly and was no less irritating in this car than in my prior Civic. The inside trim/options conform generally to the “EX” version of the regular Civic except there is no sunroof, presumably to keep weight down. Fine by me, I appreciated the extra headroom.
The power is supplied by a 1.3 liter 4-cylinder engine augmented by an electric motor that is located between the engine and the continuously variable transmission (CVT). Unlike the Prius for example, the Honda is not able to ever run on battery power alone, the engine is always engaged when moving. The battery charge meter is an extra bar graph that quickly became my primary focus when driving in much the way that the MPG readout on my old VW GTI’s trip computer became utterly addictive.
For the first couple of months I mainly drove it to and from work. The car worked well, almost the same as a regular Civic. Quiet, smooth, economical with one big difference. It had stop/start technology. You’d stop at a light and after a couple of seconds the engine would shut down. Let off the brake and it would spring to life before you had time to move your foot over to the accelerator. Nowadays I read comments on other sites re: stop/start since other makers are implementing it and can immediately tell when someone has never used it.
It is a seamless technology that makes perfect sense to save fuel. That being said, I was in a friend’s new BMW recently that has it as well and it was nowhere near as smooth. His car vibrated significantly more than my Honda did during the start and even when the engine came to a stop. Try it before you knock it but give several systems a chance, they are not all the same, this one was totally livable and completely on target as far as the car’s mission was concerned.
I also realized that you could “game” the average mpg quite a bit depending on driving style. With a very light foot it would “upshift” rapidly (I know it’s a CVT and does not really shift but I guess it stops running at its peak power output rpm). However, once cruising, if you quickly lifted off the gas entirely and then v-e-r-y gingerly stepped back on to it to the same position you were at before, it would go into a leaner-burn mode and/or shut down a couple of cylinders and you would get a lot better mileage according to the gauge at least.
I learned about this by reading up on the Hybrid forums and it did seem to work, but do not think it is something the average driver would realize or do. I also think this contributed to the relative failure of this car in the market and had to do with a class-action lawsuit against Honda (along with some other factors, admittedly). The chart above does a good job of showing how and when the electric motor kicks in to help and when the engine turns cylinders off and when it regenerates. However the way you drive it does seem to affect how it changes between the parameters.
Anyway, going to work down my hill I would see the battery bars regenerate themselves when coasting and applying the brakes. Conversely, heavy throttle as I would use heading back up the hill after work would see the battery bars rapidly depleting themselves. Just driving normally in stop and go or on a freeway etc. would result in the battery generally remaining in the upper 2/3rds of its charge range.
Last week’s article contained a bit about moving our Tahoe to Colorado. It soon became time to do the same with this Civic. I loaded up the trunk, put the dog in the backseat and loaded more stuff in the passenger seat. Knowing how the battery depleted itself on my trips up the hill back home, I was ready to see how the car would handle the trip. Well, the Sierra Nevadas went pretty well, likely helped by the fact that driving up them from the west it is rare that you just keep going up for miles on end.
We’d go up a mile, then head a bit back downhill and pick up speed, then more up etc. On the occasions that the battery would be depleted you would realize that a 1.3liter naturally aspirated engine is no longer sufficient to power a modern car. But it was not horrible. Not great, but not horrible.
On the long stretch across Nevada and then the first part of Utah it would easily cruise at 80+ all day long. The dog was happy in the back, I was fine in the front. After Salt Lake City if you want to head East you need to remain on I-80 up the mountains to Park City. This is a very steep, very constant grade with virtually no relief until you reach the top. After the first mile the battery was depleted and the car started to slow down.
The CVT had it running at its peak power point, I had the throttle pinned, but slowly I was slowing down. At its slowest I was down to almost 25mph in the far right truck lane and big rigs were passing me for the last couple of miles. I don’t know if a Prius would be any better, probably not, but if I had a mountain commute or regularly had to go up and down one, I would not be buying a hybrid of any sort as it was miserable.
Eventually I made it to our new home in northern Colorado and the final trip average worked out to 44mpg. Not bad at all, but really not that much better than a normal Civic could do.
In our new home it was fine. I was curious how it would do in the snow and ice and the answer was not bad. When it is really cold out the start/stop does not operate in order to allow the heater to work properly, this does have some effect on overall economy obviously.
I also had to replace two tires (the previous owner had replaced the other two already), I was able to find the same brand/size online and had them shipped to me. Tires are very important on a hybrid, if you don’t get the proper low-rolling-resistance ones you will feel it in the fuel economy department very quickly.
Reliability-wise it was perfect. Nothing was wrong with it and nothing went wrong. The Honda dealer serviced it for oil changes only (4th change free and $25 each with the coupon that included a wash and free fresh Otis Spunkmeyer cookies while waiting, can’t beat that). Many people still seem to think that you will need to replace the battery pack at frequent intervals at great expense.
Two things: 1) There is a vibrant second-hand and reconditioning market for hybrid car batteries and 2) The batteries are warrantied significantly longer than the rest of the car since they are considered part of the emissions system. This means that in most states they receive an 8year/80,000 mile warranty and in CA, CT, MA, ME, NY and VT they receive a 10year/150,000 mile warranty.
Battery failure is not common and there should be no fear of having to replace them every couple of years even though you can still find people who will yammer on about this being a “requirement”. Interestingly though, if you buy the car in CA for example, while you live in CA you are covered under the 10/150k warranty but if you move to another state (besides the six listed above) then you are only covered under the 8/80k warranty. I assume it works the other way as well.
Knowing it was temporary transportation made it an easy decision to eventually replace it. I ended up shopping it around when looking for a replacement, the first dealer that had what we wanted that I took it to offered me the same $9500 I paid for it based on the accident history. At the next dealer I also found something we wanted, decided what a fair price for it was (to me), told the dealer straight up what the problem was with the car. I stated what I was willing to pay for their car, made it clear that I wanted $12,500 for the trade-in, and that he had ten minutes to decide and then I would head off towards the next dealer. No playing games.
He showed it to his used car manager and within five minutes we had a deal. I have no idea if they made a killing or not and don’t care but I was pleased and that is what matters. At that time it had about 44,000 miles on it. As I said it was a fine car but hard to find much to be passionate about, it really was a lot like a reliable electric appliance (which is perfect for a lot of people and pretty much the whole point of the car I suppose, and from that perspective it was absolutely stellar).
As an added bonus, since there had been a class-action lawsuit regarding the fuel mileage and how the battery recharged itself (Honda had apparently changed the algorithm with a software update that was irreversible and involuntary on behalf of the owners and was implemented during routine service visits in order to make the battery packs last even longer) I received a check for $200 several months after trading it in. I had been under the impression that only the original owners were eligible for this so this was completely unexpected and very welcome.
I nicknamed a friend of mine “Kenmore” because of his love for appliance grade cars. He loved it and uses it as his handle on car sites along with his avatar of a white refrigerator.
IIRC, the 8/80 warranty is a federal requirement (along with all other emissions equipment on ANY car). The CARB states have the 10/150 requirement.
While the battery packs have shown excellent endurance in real life driving, I would think that the car companies themselves would warranty them to the CARB standards, just to soothe the nerves of any newbie hybrid owners.
I think it would also quell any unsubstantiated rumors about battery durability and replacement schedules.
Just because a state adopted CA emissions standards does not mean that they adopted CA emissions system integrity warranty mandate. I know I live in WA a state that has adopted the emissions standards but not the warranty requirements.
Toyota and Ford Hybrid battery packs have shown to have excellent endurance while this generation of Honda Civic Hybrid is known to have IMA batteries that are not durable at all. Many have failed under warranty and even more just out of warranty.
Most crash repair jobs are poorly done. You can tell by the misaligned body panels, doors that don’t close right, leaky trunks, mismatched tires, missing or misplaced badges, missing bolts and fasteners, and different shades of paint. Some shady repair shops will replace the airbag covers, but not the airbags and just disable the airbag light.
That being said, your Civic looks pretty good. One thing to consider is that some cities/states will give you a hard time when trying register a car with a salvage title.
Mine appeared to be done well and was not salvage, it was not a huge wreck. Title was fine but the note in the car fax file scared people off.
Thats ridiculous, “MOST” crash repairs are not poorly done at all. A significant majority are completed by reputable shops and paid for by reputable insurance companies that have high standards for “recommended” shops that they send their clients to. In most cases you would be hard pressed to find evidence of the repairs beyond a little overspray on the undercarriage.
Now what you are probably referring to is salvage car rebuilds and shoddy “cash discount” repairs on older cars that the owners do not carry insurance on. Some of those repairs can be pretty bad, I admit. But I have also seen high quality salvage repair cars that I wouldn’t hesitate to buy and drive myself.
I’ve seen very few repair jobs where there weren’t telltale signs of a wreck. Missing fasteners being the most common sign. I agree that most repair jobs are perfectly safe, but very few return the car back to factory condition. Insurance companies are businesses, not charities. Very few insurance companies will pay for new OEM body parts, most will use refurbished or after market parts, especially on an older car. With after market parts, its kind of hit and miss, some are good, some are really poor quality. On some after market parts, I’ve had to re-drill holes because the manufacturer drilled them in the wrong place. Or they are the wrong size so I have to file them bigger, or add washers. Some parts are too big or too small, so they either have to be filed down or filled in with body filler. I also agree that salvage repair jobs can be worse because the damage is usually worse. However, sometimes a severely damaged car can slip through without getting a salvage title.
I have to agree, very few repairs end up factory seamless(sometimes literally) and when they are you better assume there’s a finger thick layer of filler somewhere under the paint. Bodyshops do their very best to sweep the mess under the carpet.
I guess it depends on where you are seeing all these samples of repair work. I am not saying there isn’t shoddy work out there, especially on older cars. I am saying it isn’t “most” repairs, and I am surprised we don’t have any body shop guys here defending their craft. I know a few guys in the business and they are all extremely reputable and hate the fly by night repair guys as much as the general public does. I haven’t seen a body shop throw a “finger thick layer of bondo” on anything in years, if anything they are much more likely to replace an entire panel than bother to fix it. And I have never seen an insurance company force you to use aftermarket panels, it is generally up to the owner to insist on it but as far as I know they have to pay for it. Maybe I have just been lucky working with good shops and good insurance companies, or maybe you guys have just been unlucky or are in the side of the industry where more of the shoddy work is seen.
http://www.consumerinsuranceguide.com/auto_insurance/does-your-auto-insurance-specify-original-or-aftermarket-replacement-parts/
“According to the National Association of Mutual Insurance Companies in Washington, D.C., aftermarket replacement parts are 26 percent to 50 percent less expensive than are original equipment components, which helps carriers reduce auto insurance premiums by an estimated industry-wide $3.25 billion per year. The association says more than 95 percent of all insurance carriers specify use of aftermarket parts in at least some situations.”
My experience has been that the only time insurance companies spring for OEM is when aftermarket parts are not available, which is the case with very new cars. However, not all aftermarket parts are bad. Personally speaking junk parts are the best deal, but most shops avoid it because of the negative stigma, and the extra leg work required to find a part in good condition. Also, a lot of profit is made in the parts mark up, which is harder to pull off with used parts.
I agree that most reputable repair shops avoid excessive bondo use. Body filler is time consuming to apply and sand, and time is money, but I am sure there are a few fly by night operations that do.
I love that blue/beige interior combination!
Me too! Now if they offered it on an Si…
+1 Very tasteful. A sign of good things to come. A bit of real wood would go a long way…
Thanks for your take on stop/start technology. I’ve driven the previous generation of Civic Hybrid a few times (by-the-hour rentals from FlexCar) and I don’t remember the engine shutting off at stoplights. Most of the opinions that I’ve heard have been from people who, like me, have never driven a car with that feature…
You have to get the engine up to a minimum temp before the engine shut down will occur.
You can’t really compare how the Honda, Toyota and Ford Hybrids engine stop/start systems work with non Hybrid start/stop systems. The Hybrid stop/start systems use the, or one of the Hybrid system motors to spin the engine up to ~1000 rpm and then they add fuel and the engine starts at a high idle. The non-Hybrid systems use the conventional starter that only spins the engine at ~300 rpm or so and they start spraying fuel as soon as the engine spins. Makes a big difference on how rough the engine start is.
Thank you very much for the information, it’s going to help me a great deal in the coming year.
Once I’ve got the Solstice paid off (probably by May – a year since I took out the four year loan) I’m going to be shopping for a replacement for the xB. Am seriously considering: a. Leasing a Volt, or b. a new Cruize Eco with manual or equivalent, or c. Picking up a used hybrid. Yes, I’m just looking for appliance grade transportation. I’ve already got a sports car and two motorcycles.
I’m very seriously considering either a Civic hybrid or an Insight. Yeah, they’re not as sexy as a Prius (the horrible-affront-to-God-and-the-polar-bears ICE runs when ever you’re moving), but used Prius’ go for a premium over the Honda product, and I figured since I’ve worked for a Honda dealer for ten years now, it might be nice to finally drive something with the badge on the hood.
Some definite information to consider. Once again, thanks.
What is wrong with the XB? I liked my XB’s hauling capacity(with the back seats down) and the room but disliked getting only 26-28MPG with such a light car and dealing with Toyota’s bullshit every time I took it for warranty repairs got tiring. I traded the thing in on a used Ranger and while I lost about $500 in the deal, I still found it worthwhile.
As for replacing it, the Honda Insight is not selling(which is surprising for a Honda) so you should get a good deal on one. They do drive nicely and are quite roomy.
Nothing’s wrong with the xB. I’ve had it four years now, and am in the mood for a new(er) car. I’m like that, definitely not the kind of person who keeps a car for 200k+ and driving it until it’s last trip is to the breaker yard.
I like new cars. And I like to change cars.
It comes from having been born and raised in a car dealership. And I’m not a nickle squeezer when it comes to cars.
I’m seriously considering an Insight because the ex-wife has one and loves it (she’s another one of those ‘appliance cars’ types who hates driving), its in its final model year, and it hasn’t sold well, so I would assume some dealing would be doable.
You really don’t want this generation of Civic Hybrid the battery packs do not last and the increase in MPG over the regular Civic isn’t that significant. The Prius demands a premium because it is a good car, arguably the best car to carry the Toyota badge in the last 10 years. The Civic Hybrid of this vintage is a known dog with a minimal increase in MPG over the conventional Civic and the IMA battery pack is a known problem. The newer models might be better but this generation is something you definitely want to stay away from as a used car.
Nice perspective on this car. I should look it up, because I’m a bit surprised about how low the horsepower output of the Civic engine must be in order to slow down that much on long grades. Even our old Peugeot 404 wagon with 76 hp and automatic could manage 35-40mph on the steepest highway grades in the Sierra.
It’s about 90 for the engine itself. Weight is just under 2900. Not sure about torque but being a Honda probably relatively low. We had me, the dog and a bunch of luggage/stuff to move.
Pleased to see this one will climb hills an original Honda Hybrid came here and could not get over the Rimutaka hills coming out of Wellington its a long steep climb and it overwhelmed the system, I mean if Toyota can get it right surely so can others
I know the pass you’re talking about quite well. If you get stuck in the right lane, you’re truly stuck. When I lived in PC and went to Utah, I had to cane my old 1990 Integra to keep at 70ish in 3rd gear. Same with our 2007 Outback, also a manual.
I know it’s not your concern Jim, but what’s going to happen to this Honda in 7-8 years?
The maintenance costs on two power systems could get pricey. I tend to keep cars for over 6-7 years, and it is my big concern with hybrids. Long term, what happens to these cars? They don’t seem practical, once the repairs start to mount.
I think they will do fine, even for older examples than that. There are plenty of Prius taxis around and plenty of privately owned ones with big mileages already. Maybe the battery will need to be replaced eventually and possibly the electric motor (probably not) but other that that it is fairly normal. I think many of the replacement parts will be available used if not aftermarket for the home mechanic. That said I have not heard of any recurrent problems at higher mileage with these or other hybrids. They are most likely significantly over engineered from the get go. That being said, obviously there are more pieces than a regular car so who knows. Eventually a repair will no longer be economically feasible and it will be junked and recycled like any other car…
Thank you for your thorough answer Jim. I wondered if the lack of widespread adoption would keep specific parts expensive. Or even manufacturers switching to newer technology that is expensive to adapt to older models. I know the 8-10 year warranties help. But cars can last well past 10 years. It would be ideal if electric power technology advances could eventually deem the gas engine redundant in these.
Here is a link to a 300k mile Prius still on original battery:
http://priuschat.com/threads/300k-miles-one-prius-one-owner.113834/
That is very impressive. No question, Toyota engineered these very well.
New York City Sanitation and a bunch of other city departments still use 1st generation Priuses – more than 10 years (and god knows how many miles) of pure stop-and-go driving, where the battery is getting a thorough workout. All the cab companies are stockpiling hybrids right now because come 2014, all new city taxis will be required to be Nissan NV200s (totally ridiculous). There are thousands of Escape, C-Max, Altima, Camry, Highlander and Prius hybrid taxis that are used 24/7 and all the cabbies and cab companies love them – it’s one of the few environments where you can realize a considerable fuel savings with a hybrid over a short period of time. I even still see some Malibu Hybrid cabs and we have Saturn Vue hybrids at work that have racked up considerable mileage with few problems. The Malibus and oldest Camrys/Escapes are from 2008 so they must have an obscene amount of miles on them by this point. If these cars have done well here, they’ll do well anywhere (even New Zealand). I agree with Jim that they seem to have been “overbuilt” from the get-go for the most part.
The Honda IMA system is really the only one that I’ve read of anyone having serious problems with – and A) it’s not every Honda by any means, plus B) I have some doubts. I know it’s different elsewhere in the country, but I’d say that every third or fourth Civic I see is a hybrid – including many of the 2003-2005 generation.
Tons of these still hard at work:
The Civic is not a Prius so drawing conclusions as to how it will age based on the Prius just isn’t valid. This generation Civic Hybrid is known to eat battery packs and isn’t a good car to keep for the long run. Heck it isn’t a good car to keep for the short run since you pay more for it up front and after a couple of years its value is less than the regular Civic.
Right. Toyota’s hybrid system is vastly different from Honda’s, and is designed to maximize fuel economy in a way that Honda’s is not. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but my sister-in-law has a 2007 Camry Hybrid with probably 135,000 miles by now, and it has had nothing but expected routine maintenance, even with all its bells and whistles.
Honda’s all-new hybrid system as used on the new Accord looks to be a vastly better design. It is well suited for plug-in use too. It may have outdone Toyota HSD even. I’ll be curious to see whether Toyota sticks with HSD, because it’s not really well suited to plug-in use, since its motor isn’t powerful enough for extended EV high-speed use.
The new Honda system strikes me as very ideal, and simple too.
Hopefully Honda has properly engineered the batteries for the new Accord and RLX for the long haul.
The new RLX in particular is a huge leap forward with the efficiency of a manual transmission, admittedly an automated one to eliminate the losses of a CVT, eCVT or pure planetary for superior hwy MPG in addition to maximizing city MPG.
The new Accord is pretty impressive too but not as much as the RLX.
It is interesting that they chose to use two entirely different systems for the Honda and Acura.
@Paul, the HSD could be built with a larger more powerful traction motor IF Toyota wanted to maximize its all EV operation. The Fusion and C-Max Energi use the same type of eCVT and are able to operate at much higher EV only speeds and for a longer distance. Toyota apparently doesn’t see much value in the plug in ability and chose to keep using the current system. On the other hand Ford engineered their eCVT to do well for use on the Energi vehicles by increasing the HP of the traction MG while raising the critical RPM of the range MG and let the regular ones reap some of the benefits of it.
Of course you can’t eliminate the inherit inefficiency of the eCVT in sustained steady state operation w/o some significant changes and added complexity. Which is where the newest Honda system based on manual transmission principles really shines.
Isn’t the problem with the older Honda batteries not even so much the batteries themselves, but the fact that the computer will allow them to discharge much more fully than any other hybrid – which kills them quicker (but also enabled them to get the gas mileage they got)?
I believe so, and Honda apparently updated the software which changed how the car functioned. This annoyed some owners resulting in a lawsuit (I believe). The goal was to extend the battery life.
I own a 2009 Honda Civic LX of the non-hybrid variety. I passed on the hybrid version because I felt that the different in MPG between both models was negligible and thus, not worth the extra money.
I love my Civic though. It won’t break any land-speed records or help me pick up chicks but it gives me the sturdy, reliable transportation that I seek.
Smart move you payed less up front and it has a higher retained value than the same year Hybrid version.
Bmw’s stop/start system is notoriously underbaked. When I occasionally have to drive one with this “feature,” the first thing I do is switch it off. A surprising failure from a company that nominally prizes the driving experience.
I hope that someday we get Japanese diesel cars here. I have high hopes for the forthcoming Mazda6, but I wish we could get an oil-burning Accord or Camry. Though I probably wouldn’t buy such an appliance for myself, it would be great to be able to recommend it to friends/family who are otherwise obsessed with hybrids. Now, if there were a Chrysler 300 diesel, I’d be at the front of the line…
Chrysler 300 comes with a VM motori turbo diesel, didnt you know? same on highway performance as the V8 in half the fuel during road tests.
…and they come with 3 pedals, not the clutch-challenged transmission.
Sure, I’ve heard about the VM motori engine… but I can’t buy one! I think it’s available everywhere except North America. We only get the V6 and V8 gas engines.
I did once get to drive a Chrysler Sebring convertible in Italy… It had the diesel engine (though I’m embarrassed to say I didn’t check which one) with a manual transmission. Great on the highways and through the twisty Alps (but important to downshift BEFORE entering the steep hairpin curves!). And great fuel economy, of course.
The only downside was… the rest of the car. Still, many people told us, “che bella macchina!” as we tried to pilot it through their little villages. In a land full of Fiat Pandas, they weren’t being sarcastic (I think).
Same motor the stuff into Jeeps to make em saleable good engines apparently at least they are a popular option here. Quite likely unavailable in the US our Chryslers come from Belgium.
I will shoot one for the cohort page next time I see one parked
The Chrysler Sebring had a 2.0 liter Volkswagen diesel.
The 3.0 V6 VM Motori diesel is in the Chrysler 300, Jeep GC, Ram 1500 and Maserati Ghibli. (Tuned to 275 hp in the Maserati)
Out of the thousands of start-stop cars I’ve walked past while crossing the street, the only ones I have ever been able to notice shutting down and starting back up (without trying really hard to notice, anyway) are the newest BMWs. Granted, those BMWs are also the only non-hybrid start-stop cars I can think of, so maybe it’s just a symptom of using that system without the aid of an electric motor to smooth things out.
I have a Honda Insight1 with a manual 5 speed and live in British Columbia. Mountains are easy when you have full control over the gearing as I climb the long passes at about 1/3 assist which gets me all the way up and on the descents, use the appropriate gear to give me a full battery by the time I reach the valley floor.
The auto stop/start feature works great with a 13 HP starter (the assist/generator motor) attached directly to the crank. If the traditional 3/4 HP bendix starter is used, not so good.
We had a 2003 Civic Hybrid for a little over nine years. We bought it new. The dealer replaced the battery pack at around 60,000 miles (I think), under warranty. At some point we had to replace the steering rack–it was after the factory warranty expired, and we had to fight a bit to get the extended warranty folks to cover an actual new Honda rack, not something rebuilt. Somewhere around 100,000 miles we had new struts put in. The CVT turned out to have issues, chiefly a “juddering” when starting off from a dead stop. It felt like nothing so much as a misbehaving, worn-out clutch. Honda issued a service bulletin about it, and we had it dealt with a couple of times. As for fuel mileage, we got our best mileage (about 42-44 miles per gallon) in spring and fall, when we didn’t have to use the A/C or heat much. Summer pulled the mileage down to about 36 or so, because we were running the A/C all the time. Fit and finish were flawless, and none of the accessories ever failed or even became balky.
The auto-stop could be enabled or disabled by a button on the dash; we often disabled it during the summer because that would be the only way to keep the A/C going at a light. That, of course, pulled fuel mileage down a lot (even running the A/C affected fuel mileage a lot!). But, one doesn’t want to be stopped at a light when it’s over 100 degrees outside, with the A/C blowing tepid or even warm air because the compressor isn’t running!
The auto-stop would also be automatically disengaged if the A/C system was switched to defog or de-ice, because the compressor would be engaged to dehumidify the air. We never found a way to override that. The A/C was also only adequate–great on highways or freeways, a bit underperforming in the city.
The transmission thing is what made us trade it in, with about 115,000 miles, for a 2009 Camry Hybrid. We decided that, with the Honda, we were part of a beta test that we didn’t know we were part of. Much of the car was very, very good: handling, braking, fit and finish, overall reliability. The engine itself always ran flawlessly. However, the hybridization needed more work, and the transmission came to seem like a work-in-progress.
Regarding the AC – in my experience, Honda’s AC seem to affect the mpg more than on other makes. Our 07 Odyssey got the mileage of a dang Suburban with the AC on, and our 10 CRV isn’t much better. 3+ mpg penalty. But it hardly affects my 02 Outback H6 and 06 Mazda6 4cyl 5spd., maybe 1 mpg, and when I had my 96 Cherokee it made no noticable difference. My mechanic said it has something to do with how Honda handles the AC when idling or under heavy load. IIRC he mentioned a variable valve, rather than just disconnecting it with an electric clutch? (It’s been a while so I may well have it wrong…)
Nice article. I wondered what the Hybrid Civic drove like and it is nice to have a perspective of an owner of both a non Hybrid and Hybrid Civic of the same generation.
I think the Civic Hybrid does not sell as good as the Prius for two reasons
1. With the exception of the different wheels and the addition of an external antenna(the same reason for the non lowering rear seats(Battery) is the reason for the external antenna so as to not allow interference to reception of the radio or to the battery) and a little trunk spoiler, the hybrid Civic looks like the gas version Civic and we all know that a lot of folks buying Hybrids want to stand out in a crowd and say “look I am saving the planet by buying a Hybrid car”(while saving plant resources is a good thing, the sheer arrogance of some of these hybrid owners is amazing)
2. The gas version of the Civic is pretty thrifty itself and gets impressive gas mileage while having more horse power.
Bingo on both points.
“we all know that a lot of folks buying Hybrids want to stand out in a crowd and say “look I am saving the planet by buying a Hybrid car”(while saving plant resources is a good thing, the sheer arrogance of some of these hybrid owners is amazing)”
This is just an foolish made-up fantasy. Perhaps you can find some evidence of hybrid owners who think that way, but it doesn’t account for the much greater popularity of the Prius.
Fact is the Toyota hybrid system is much better than Honda’s (back then, anyway). Toyota’s works better, is more economical and more reliable (Hondas had a reputation for battery failure which Toyota did not).
Whoever in Honda thought that it was a good idea to fix the back seat and reduce the boot/trunk size on a Civic sedan, was wrong. Despite having to accommodate the battery package the hatchback Prius has a surprisingly large and useful load area.
The Prius is overall a much better packaged vehicle than the Civic hybrid. You sit more upright in a Prius and anyone cross-shopping a Prius and a Civic hybrid would feel a sense a space and openness in the Prius that the Civic does not have. It’s a great car for a family of four (not such much for five).
I think that most people who bought a Prius (whether new or used) did so because its well made, well packaged, reliable and they really like stopping to refuel as infrequently as possible (who doesn’t?). It’s really not that hard to understand. And my guess is that they don’t really much care what other people think about what they drive when it’s such a sensible, practical choice.
And if anyone thinks they’re saving the planet by buying a hybrid or other alternative fuel vehicle, is dreaming. Eventually, the planet will be fine whatever we do to it. It’s our way of life which is at risk of reckless over-consumption (collectively not individually) of all kinds. Maybe technological and political developments will keep us all ahead of the curve into the future – and maybe they won’t. We’ll find out I guess.