As someone who’s registered an interest in the Rivian R1T electric pickup with the company, I recently received an invitation for a test drive at their local Service Center, which is about 50 miles from my home.
The Service Center was a fairly modest building in an industrial area near San Francisco airport. There were quite a few R1T pickups, and a handful of R1S SUV’s parked around, some obviously new awaiting delivery, some with permanent California metal license plates, road grime, and even one with a laundry list of pretty serious issues penned on the windshield glass.
First, some background on the company and the truck itself. The company that became Rivian was started in 2009 by a mechanical engineer with a new PhD from MIT. By 2015, investment from outside was sizable, and a few years later Rivian purchased the former Chrysler/Mitsubishi DiamondStar factory in Normal, Illinois, to go along with R&D centers in California and Michigan. Over the period from 2017 to 2019, Rivian got big chunks of money from Ford and Amazon, and announced three products, all fully electric: the R1T pickup, the similar but shorter R1S SUV, and a commercial van optimized for Amazon curbside delivery. Rivian and Ford also announced plans to co-develop other electric vehicles.
The van exists and is being used by Amazon on a limited basis in some areas, but I’ve never seen one. Plans are for 100,000 to be built and deployed by 2030. We’ll see …
The pickup started shipping in late 2021, just around the time Rivian stock became publicly traded and just before Ford mostly split away from Rivian. Rivian has hired some pretty experienced auto industry veterans, and recently announced a partnership with Mercedes Benz for electric vans.
The first Rivian I saw, January of 2022
In January of this year, I saw my first Rivian, with real license plates, parked in my home town. It was real! I was impressed. The styling may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but I like it a lot compared to the overly-chromed and big-grilled norm for modern pickups. The size is slightly larger than my double cab short bed Tacoma; though with its even shorter 52” bed (1.3 m) it may not be very useful for a working carpenter, it seems just right for “lifestyle” use. And the fit and finish and detailing on this early example looked great.
Back to my test drive, ten months after that initial sighting. I thought it might be a group event, but was surprised to see the office and customer parking areas of the Service Center quiet. Upon checking in, I learned that this was a one-on-one appointment, though there was another test drive scheduled after mine. So I got about 20 minutes to go through the truck with the Rivian guy, 30 minutes to drive it on a rather dull preset course with a mix of freeway and industrial streets on both sides of Hwy 101 just south of San Francisco, with a short section with curves in the hills, and then a brief wrap-up back at the shop.
A few notes about the truck. Four motors, 135 kWh battery with 7,776 Samsung 2170 cells, all-wheel drive, fully independent suspension and adjustable ride height (9.9 to 15.4″, 252 to 392 mm) air suspension, 835 horsepower (!). Initially launched in a few configurations of drivetrain and battery capacity, but currently only available in the “Adventure” configuration with the quad motors and a plus or minus 310 mile range (500 km), depending on wheel and tire choice. Two colors, silver and white, are offered standard; a handful of other colors are available at extra cost.
I’ve driven a few Tesla Model 3’s, as well as a Nissan Leaf, a BMW i3 – and a Corbin Sparrow (look it up), so I expected smooth pickup, strong acceleration, and a few minutes to get used to regenerative braking. No surprises in the first mile. The large center touchscreen was pretty overwhelming, more on that later, so the Rivian employee who rode shotgun took care of most settings and I asked him to dial back regen from high to standard. After a few stops I adapted quickly and he set it back to high which started feeling good. It’s definitely one pedal driving. And wow, that one pedal! I merged onto Hwy 101 ahead of a Model 3. My co-pilot engaged Sport mode, which lowers the truck 2”, stiffens the suspension and reduces stability control a bit. I floored that right pedal and the Tesla just disappeared in the rear view mirror. Motor Trend got 0-60 mph in 3.1 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 11.6 seconds. I don’t know if it felt quite that fast, but my friend in the backseat who wasn’t expecting it, said the thrust threw his whole body back violently.
A lot has been written about the sports car feel of the steering, suspension and general handling of the Rivian. Don’t believe it. It’s still a truck, or at least a large 7100 lb (3220 kg) vehicle. I drove up to the event in our 2015 VW Golf. Even with its peppy 1.8T motor and 5 speed, our non-GTI Golf obviously has much less acceleration, and with its 195/65-15 all season tires, perhaps less ultimate skid pad stick. But the VW still felt much sportier and more fun to drive, as I confirmed on my way home taking a detour through the Santa Cruz Mountains. On the other hand, both I and my friend, who took the wheel of the R1T for a few minutes and who owns a 2wd Tundra and a 4wd F150, agreed that the R1T felt pretty amazing for a pickup.
There is also a “Conserve” mode, which lowers the suspension for reduced frontal area and drag, and inactivates the rear motors. When switched to this mode on the highway, the remaining indicated range and battery capacity immediately went up about 10%.
In many ways, the R1T also felt too fancy for what I would want in a truck, though I also felt that way about my Tacoma when I bought it 6 years ago. Certainly, some aspects of the design are very clever and functional, and should be very useful for my kind of usage.
Built in air compressor and locks for an included security cable, great for airing up tires or inflatable watercraft, and for securing bikes or tools, respectively. The cable locks, behind the vertical ports under the compressor controls, are electrically actuated; just insert the cable ends and they lock, push and pull to unlock (only when the vehicle is unlocked); hopefully they work reliably.
A pass-through gear tunnel, accessible from either side and from the back seat, though the latter access is through a pretty small port. The fold down doors make good steps, or seats. There’s no access to the gear tunnel from the bed, nor does the rear window slide. So unlike my Tacoma, where I can slide a few long pieces of lumber or PVC pipe through the back window all the way up to the windshield if needed, the Rivian is not set up to haul anything much longer than 5’ with the tailgate up, except on the optional roof rack. But maybe I’m being too practical. I mean, a little load capacity isn’t important if you can outdrag a Ram TRX out of the Home Depot parking lot. Just buy shorter stock and butt it together. I’m not a golfer, but I expect many gear tunnels will store a set of clubs. It’s too short for my cross country skis (as is the bed,even diagonally) but I prefer snowshoeing anyway. With a tailgate pad it could easily haul four or five mountain bikes.
Photo from thedrive.com
The bed design does try to make up for its short length, with an articulating tailgate and pivoting filler panel that extend the length to about 7′ (2.1 m) when opened. Width between wheelwells is wide enough for a US-standard sheet of plywood or drywall. A full-size spare (optional) fits in a cavity under the bed floor; inconvenient if you have get a flat with a bed full of dirt, but flats aren’t that common anymore, and you’d be unlikely to have a bed full of dirt if you cut a sidewall offroad. If you opt not to carry a spare, the bed cavity provides another several cubic feet of waterproof storage. By the way, despite the adjustable suspension design, there is no Citroen DS-like mode to pull a wheel up off the ground to change it.
Like most other EV’s designed from scratch (and the F150 Lightning) the front trunk, or frunk, is very spacious. Perhaps not as big as the Ford’s but between the frunk and the gear tunnel, I think one could store a lot of camping gear and food, or tools, securely and free from dust, and safe from bears.
There’s also an optional powered tonneau cover, though it’s described as troublesome on the Rivian forums and the Rivian rep proactively told me that it’s been redesigned. I didn’t get a picture. But I love the headlights. A few nights before my test drive a Rivian approached me from behind on the freeway, and I knew right away what it was. And speaking of seeing Rivians, there are already a handful in my smallish home town and every time I get out of town I see one or two on the road.
Standard all season tires on 21” rims. 20” AT’s (see below) are optional, as are 22” sport tires
So what did I not like? It’s not a specific Rivian thing, but despite being reasonably tech savvy, and owning three late-model cars (2015, 2016 and 2020), I struggle with the software controlled via touch screen configuration and operation of so many features. And I suspect the Rivian may better than some modern cars. There are a few real switches and stalks on the steering wheel and column, window switches on the doors, and dedicated soft buttons below the center display as shortcuts to the screens for HVAC features, music, drive modes etc. So at least there are no (or few) deeply layered menus, the bane of a good user experience. The user manual, despite being 240 pages, is pretty sparse on some of the detail behind the features. Not unlike our 2020 Ford Transit, it often tells you HOW to activate something, but not actually WHAT the feature does, at least not with any useful technical info.
Other concerns, if I were to buy one? Well, it’s only 5” (125 mm) shorter than my garage, and longer than my driveway without protruding into the sidewalk, so to fit it inside for charging would require careful positioning and that still wouldn’t allow walking around the truck without opening the garage door; maybe not even access to the frunk. While that would be true of any pickup, the need for regular charging would inhibit parking it out on the street like I do with our two large vehicles.
Optional all terrain tires on 20” rims
The direct to consumer sales model is great, but the fact that the nearest Service Center is two or three counties away could be a hassle, especially given the number of teething problems that are documented. Also, although Rivian touts their own charging network, there are only four Rivian fast DC chargers in California, and five nation-wide. But there are always risks for early adopters, and in my opinion the Lightning is just too big, and Cybertruck availability is nowhere imminent. Not to mention perhaps even bigger than the Lightning.
R1S SUV
There’s also the R1S SUV. A bit shorter so a better garage fit, not to mention a bit more maneuverable off road. I’m used to trucks, and would think that I use my truck as a truck, so I didn’t pay too much attention to the R1S.
I do use my truck as a truck, occasionally. And with the frunk and gear tunnel I wouldn’t need the top box.
Full disclosure: I did put a (fully refundable) deposit down as a “pre-order”, but I was told that the fact that I was invited for a test drive doesn’t mean my order will be ready anytime soon, although it’s been 13 months and they’ve shipped over 10,000 trucks. And while to date there has been no schedule, Rivian did recently inform pre-order holders that we’ll get updated by the end of the month. I also have refundable deposits on the Ford Lightning and Tesla Cybertruck but have basically heard nothing from Ford or Tesla. I did really like the R1T, but 48 hours later, I can’t say the experience blew me away either. Rivian has some good funding and a distinctive appealing product, which is definitely real, so it’s not a Faraday Future, nor is it likely to become another Fisker, but could it be the next Saab? Stay tuned …
Postscript: Days after I posted this review, I got a vague update from Ford that I was in line for a Lightning, but no firm schedule. I ended up cancelling my Rivian and Lightning pre-orders, but not the Cybertruck. Got quick refunds from both Rivian and Ford. Since then, I’ve taken a couple of long, partially “off-grid” and off pavement trips in Death Valley in my Tacoma, and appreciated the range and flexibility I have with that truck.
I’ve read, and watched videos of, several reviews of the R1T, but yours has been the most insightful, dman.
Not that I’m in the market for a vehicle that costs as much as my condo, but if I was, I think I’d pick the Ford. Not because it’s better, mind you, but simply because of the wider availability of service and support. But as I’m not at all the target market, I’m not sure how much that matters to the folks who are.
Kudos to the designer or design staff Rivian has. One of the few “modern” designs that certainly does NOT look like an explosion in a origami mattress factory! Also it looks reasonably sized unlike the Big 3 products that all seem to be trying to outdo class 8 semis!!
Despite their very recent recall, more (electric) power to Rivian.. 🙂 DFO
Great review! I do worry a bit about putting that much power in the hands of less experienced drivers.
Another wiz-bang “lifestyle” EV with ridiculous power and acceleration. Lightning Pro with, unfortunately fleet order only, extended range battery is the only one even close to a practical replacement for our 2000 K2500 single cab with 8 foot bed.
Fortunately, I’m not interested in replacing a K2500. The R1T can’t do that and isn’t marketed that way. Neither the Lightning with it’s 5.5’ bed, nor the Silverado EV will do that either.
The K2500 is overkill for my mission, but it was what was available used when I was buying. I could easily get by with half the 3500lb payload and 7500lb towing. But, nothing less than a 6.5 foot bed would work and only need a single cab, an EV work truck.
I think it’s a real stretch to even call this a “truck”. With a microscopic bed, not even a plywood or 2×4 fits inside. At a monstrous 8,500 lb weight, 2/3rds of the energy is required just to move this thing. A real truck would have a separate bed, accomodations for short and long beds, as well as 1/2 ton to 1 ton capacities, and flatbed choices, as well as service beds and wrecker and specialty beds. What’s the purpose of this vehicle in the first place since it can’t do what a truck is supposed to do? We’ve all seen by now the electric truck that bogs down pulling an empty car trailer, and then with a light weight antique vehicle for the load, a ridiculously short range.
It’s going to be interesting to watch the Rivian story unfold. They’re going through a rough time lately, but then so did Tesla at a similar stage. Rivian is following the Tesla playbook pretty strongly, but they have made some painful mistakes. The biggest one is that the RT1 and RS1 are way too expensive to make, and Rivian is probably losing a significant amount on each one.
I’ve watched Sandy Munro take apart an RT1 and he thinks it was over-engineered and is much too expensive to turn a profit given its price. He estimates that it costs Rivian at least $95k to build each one. Rivian has a major program to re-engineer these two, to drive down the costs; two motors instead of four, and lots of other changes. They’re going to have to hustle to make that happen in order to hope for profitability.
Tesla learned this lesson early, and has done some remarkable re-engineering to wring out costs of their cars, especially the Model Y. The way they’re building it now, with a Megacasting on each end and the structural battery pack in the middle, with the seats already attached, is pretty amazing. The estimates are that once Tesla has the 4860 structural battery packs production up to speed, it will result in a $5,500 cost saving per Model Y. it’s that kind of constant production efficiency that is keeping Tesla profit margins sky high, while Rivian struggles with an overly-expensive product line. They’re going to have to hustle.
When you say “over-engineered” do you mean over-engineered in the sense of more complicated and more bells & whistles than needed, or over-engineered for durability? I suspect more of the former.
I wish some manufactuer would build a simple, rugged, durability and easily repaired, long term maintainable EV truck (like your 1966 Ford) with minimal computerized parasitical bells & whistles (don’t need power amenities, computer displays and smart device connectivity, etc.
Some of both. Mostly overly ambitious, resulting in a vehicle that’s too expensive to build at the price point. Similar to the issue that Mercedes ran into in the early 90s, when they had to abandon their uber-engineering approach because the market wouldn’t pay for it anymore. In Rivian’s case, it reflects a lack of experience in both how to come up with more cost-effective solutions as well having been perhaps too ambitious, such as using four motors when three will do. That’s what the top-tier Cybertruck will have, and two in the lower tier version.
Rivian is already engineering a switch to a two-motor version for that reason.
I’m a little cynical/skeptical about some of Sandy Munro’s opinions, but there’s no question that some of the complexity of the Rivian design, from a manufacturability perspective, has resulted in higher costs. Higher than they would be for a legacy company like Ford, whose volumes enable economies of scale, and whose larger engineering teams can implement cost reductions quickly. And, higher costs than Tesla, which has shown (in my opinion, which is based on my career engineering/manufacturing experience) a brilliant and focused drive towards product simplification and manufacturing efficiency more than any other company, though Apple comes close. But if the company survives, the current pricing of the R1T for pre-order customers is a hell of a deal. Hopefully Daimler Benz’s investment will help, though I’m not sure they’re a paragon of value engineering innovation themselves.
He’s become a showman, and like anything I watch (or read) I don’t take it as the gospel truth. But I have learned a lot, and love watching stuff being taken apart. It’s a kid’s dream job!
The Rivian’s initial price was way off base, and the current one is still a good deal. They’re going to have a real challenge on their hand, between the production efficiency of the Big 3 and Tesla, to find the right niche.
The Mercedes thing is just to jointly build vans. I could see a scenario where they end up just being a van builder. Not predicting that, but if they can’t cut it in the competitive passenger car market, the van market is quite lucrative.
Yeah the big kid in me loves doing a full tear down so doing it on a regular basis would be fun, especially when it is a new vehicle that is clean and has no fasteners that have rusted in place for many years.
I was in a small meeting with Sandy around 2007. He was all showman back then. He has a talent for what we called “management speak” which would impress upper level executives. He also had a talent for spinning our ideas into his. His skill is manufacturing engineering and mapping workflows to optimize processes.
That certainly doesn’t surprise me based on the videos.
Sandy certainly takes a Manufacturing Engineer’s perspective and seems to give minimal consideration into serviceability or total cost. He seems hyper focused on assembly cost. I highly prefer most of the others on his channel who take a more holistic approach and they do postulate on what reasons that the engineers may have had for doing it in the manner they did.
DMAN, Thank you for this review.
While the Rivian’s high price, teething issues, and my own low mileage ’13 Tacoma’s constant and cheerful presence precludes any serious thoughts about acquiring one, reviews like this one are a pleasant way to “know” much more about these truly exotic vehicles.
Well, I call a Rivian an exotic. I mean… four motors?
Jim Klein’s reviews on his Tesla did similar duty, but on a vehicle I could see myself acquiring maybe – perhaps – hopefully – some day.
And Mr. Klein made an excellent point that charging infrastructure is very important if an EV is to become just another vehicle in the family fleet.
Reviews like this are a real service to CC readers.
I can’t see this as anything other than a useless, silly, toy. Not that I see anything wrong with that, but it needs to be viewed realistically.
Why are there no plug in hybrid trucks? That would seem to be a way to have a useable vehicle that can handle a decent payload and tow effectively until fully electric systems catch up.
Not a plug-in, but for 2024 Tacoma is expected to offer hybrid and full EV.
With other Toyota plug-ins (primes) already a common sight where I live, one could see that type of Tacoma variant as well.
https://newbesttrucks.com/2024-toyota-tacoma-hybrid/
That is a step in what I consider the right direction. In fantasyland I would like to buy a HD truck that has a payload capacity of 4k and tow at least 15, yet can just use electric as a daily driver.
And no gigantic ludicrous touch screens either, I cannot fathom why anyone wants that in a vehicle.
Ford already has the Maverick hybrid, so I’m not sure what new ground a hybrid Tacoma is breaking.
Given Toyota CEO’s apparent disdain for electric vehicles, I would not expect a plug in Tacoma or competitive full EV anytime soon. The best we can expect is some half hearted attempts to meet bare minimum .gov requirements, not any serious Tesla competitors.
https://carbuzz.com/news/toyota-ceo-has-harsh-words-about-electric-vehicles
https://hypebeast.com/2021/9/toyota-electric-vehicles-transition-loss-in-jobs-japan
A full EV Tacoma? I’ve heard absolutely nothing about that. Don’t hold your breath. Certainly not in 2024.
Toyota is the laggard in EVs, and their only current one can’t keep its wheels on. Very embarrassing. They had to stop sales and recall all of the. Apparently after several months they’ve figured out a solution.
Back when Ford originally announced that they were working on a Hybrid F-150 they did say that there was going to be a standard hybrid and a plug in hybrid version. I think the PHEV version was dropped when they decided to also do the Lightning.
That’s a shame. PHEVs are the hardest (and, by extension, the most expensive) plug-ins to engineer thanks to the complexity of tying together two different drive systems. I’m convinced that’s the reason GM abandoned PHEV vehicles, entirely (i.e., Chevy Volt) to go exclusively with BEV vehicles, beginning with the Bolt. They figured out that it was much harder to make a profit with a PHEV than it is with a BEV.
With that said, a PHEV pickup would seem to solve many of the issues for that type of vehicle, specifically, the ability to tow for a significant distance. A recent Car & Driver article did a towing comparison of the three current BEV pickups (Lightning, Rivian, Hummer) and none of them could tow for a distance greater than ~100 miles before needing to be charged. That’s simply unacceptable, especially with the current charging infrastructure for non-Tesla EVs.
Maybe that will change in the future but, for today, BEV pickups are not ready for prime-time.
A PHEV is definitely more difficult to engineer than a standard hybrid, ICE only or BEV. However in the case of the F-150 Ford already did most of the hard work as the Aviator and European Explorer are available as PHEVs that use the same transmission as used in the standard hybrid versions of those vehicles and the F-150. The only real work that would have needed to be done is that to have a decent plug-in range they would need a larger battery pack than used in the smaller and lighter vehicles.
I wait for the Cybertruck. At least that looks way different and cool, and not like a regular truck with a weird front. Just my opinion, don’t shoot me.
As mentioned in prior replies Rivian has and will continue to have it’s share of growing pains but they have persevered and are pumping out some great product. I wish only the best for them. Based on Rivian’s openness to other large manufacturer investment I could see an investor offer to take an active role with cost cutting as that is what they do best. Possibly shaving years off the typical timeline and bring finances back to black. If they don’t succeed solo that relationship could easily turn into an acquisition allowing them to continue under the same name. Even with a 13 year gestation period I give them much credit for creating ground-up clean sheet vehicles of very high quality.
Well, I myself am skeptical of these short-bed pickup trucks, as I have used my little 6′ bed Tacoma to carry lots of stuff, hanging stuff sometimes off the back and sometimes over the cab.
These guys put together a video where they use a Rivian for carrying stuff which makes me a bit less skeptical. Still might think twice about carrying 10′ lumber.
https://youtu.be/7XuvwkIxrXw
To call this thing a truck is overly optimistic. The miniature bed is there probably to restrict owners from putting any kind of a load there. What’s the capacity, 200 lbs?
Well, you could do half a minute of research and realize that the author erroneously stated the GVWR of 8500 pounds as the curb weight of the truck which is closer to 7100 pounds. So that leaves about 1400 pounds of payload or in other words, the same or more as many loaded with features crew cab half ton 4×4 trucks made by the other five or six if you count Honda full-size truck makers, of which only Toyota, Nissan, Honda and Ford actually build them and their powertrains exclusively in the United States if that’s important to you.
Of course I was being sarcastic. But still, since the idea of an electric truck is for economy and less air pollution, it would seem that a 7,100 lb behemoth with a near useless cargo bed defeats the purpose altogether. It still takes electricity generated by mostly fossil fuels to move all that extreme weight around, with minimal cargo capacity.
Yes of course you were. The truck likely also replaces or reduces the sale of a different truck burning fossil fuels directly. Not everyone’s electric power is generated by fossil fuels, you’ve surely seen municipal solar and wind energy in Colorado, never mind Wyoming, never mind solar on peoples houses, other states/countries also have hydro etc. Not every state or locale or individual are as into coal, oil, and gas, as some are. Why are people so afraid to learn about anything that’s new? 4.5 feet of cargo length with the tailgate closed and 7 feet of flat space with it opened seem pretty useful for plenty of things. An F350 long bed is just as or more useless and wasteful for plenty of others that don’t live in the Colorado backcountry as you do.
I did say “mostly”. There are recent articles that detail emissions of electrics are only about 1/2 that of ICE vehicles, and that electrics transfer pollution from American cities to workers and ecosystems in third world countries. The market will ultimately decide the success or failure of electrics, so time will tell. My prediction is that the Rivian trucks will be a complete bust, too expensive, too heavy, too little cargo space, too inconvenient to recharge, and too short of travel distance. If someone gave me a Rivian for free, I still couldn’t use it. I travel between Colorado and Southern New Mexico, 630 miles. I haul engines and transmissions, bumpers, sometimes lumber, sometimes furniture. No way could I have all that hanging out the back on the tail gate. Also I pull a car trailer with car, tailgate has to be up. Rivian couldn’t pull the trailer combined load of 6-7 thousand lbs. For most people who use a truck to be a real truck, the Rivian is useless.
Sure it doesn’t work for you and perhaps plenty of other people too, but did the article state that it would or does Rivian state that either? A Ford Maverick, Toyota Tacoma, or even a Chevy Silverado 1500 crew cab doesn’t seem ideal for your job either, but that doesn’t make any of them “useless” for everybody else, does it? There are 300 million or so other people in the US outside of the county you yourself live in, I don’t think Rivian or Ford or anyone else cares if they lose you as a potential buyer of their EV pickups.
On the other hand when you drive 40 miles into town by yourself to buy a loaf of bread in your F350 or whatever with an empty trailer at 2 miles per $5 gallon of diesel with dead baby seals riding shotgun (that’s me being sarcastic like you were earlier…) do you feel just maybe that isn’t the best tool for that particular job? Maybe you actually also have a second vehicle that is better at that task but maybe not quite as good at hauling the scrap metal, I don’t know.
We get it, Duane, an EV isn’t for you and your particular use case. Great. Perhaps consider the concept that some people own more than one vehicle at a time and that they can choose the best tool for that day’s job. Perhaps consider just for a moment that not everyone in the world tows and hauls dozens of tons of scrap metal hundreds of miles every few days, ergo maybe this truck may actually work for some of them. It’s a good thing we live in a free(ish) country so people that think only the biggest pickups are “real trucks” can’t force F350s down everyone’s throat. Just be glad every EV owner is leaving more gasoline and diesel for you to use, if everyone drove F350s you wouldn’t be able to afford the fuel anymore…
My bad on the weight. I’ll fix that. But anyway you slice it, it’s heavy. On the other hand, as a pickup owner for many of the last 40 years, who has never used them for work nor for towing, I think the R1T’s balance of performance, comfort, dimensions and passenger/cargo capacity hit a pretty good sweet spot for many American users. I think the only valid criticisms are are around this product’s complexity/reliability, and the strategic direction and the general business health of the company.
I love this comment, so appropriate! “Pickup owner for 40 years who never used them for work or towing” Here’s the perfect market for the Rivian, people who never use their truck for work or towing. Thus, I don’t consider the Rivian a real truck. The Rivian is practical on the same scale that a Corvette is practical for a passenger vehicle, both are status symbols with performance and no practical use. I often see F350 King Ranch trucks as grocery getters, here’s a real truck being used only as the same status symbol, very impractical again.
People have been using trucks for other than “work or towing” for a very long time. In this case, dman has used his truck for recreational purposes as well as household chores and stuff. Folks use them to haul bikes, camping gear, gardening materials, etc. Are you somehow suggesting that trucks should only be used for “work or towing”? That rather goes against the grain of the concept of freedom we (presumably) espouse.
There is no such thing as a “real truck”, or not. It’s a definition that covers a wide range of vehicles. And folks have various reasons to buy them, as you have yours. Please stop trying to suggest that people shouldn’t have the freedom to buy trucks and use them as they see fit. You’ve been doing this like a broken record for way too long.
Of course people should be free to use their vehicles any way they want. When you go back to the Model T Ford, it was a giant success because it was wholly practical, cheap to buy, easy to use, and everyone had one. I just see that for in order for a new manufacturer to be successful in the marketplace, the product should be more on the practical side. Maybe I’m wrong. I really miss the compact pickups like the Chevy Luv, Toyota, etc. The only reason they’re not sold here anymore is that there is no profit in them. But look what a useful vehicle they were, highly practical in every way.
Well I got a ride in its competitor, the Lightning. Didn’t get a chance to get behind the wheel nor for a very long ride but will get another ride on Fri and maybe a chance to get behind the wheel. My friend was one of those that put down the deposit and placed his order as soon as he could. His is a Lariat with the only options the big battery and the max tow package. So far he only has 600mi on it and is still in learning mode but is very happy with it.
I’ve seen plenty of Rivians on the roads around here. The crew cab pick up, in it’s various sizes, has been embraced by the public as the “do all” vehicle. Old fashioned standard cab trucks have always been limited in using them as passenger cars. Their advantage has been that they usually are equipped with a 6ft. or longer bed and their lower cost.
As a “lifestyle vehicle”, short bed crew cab trucks are great for a lot of purposes, carrying several bikes in the bed is one use. Bringing those big boxes home from Costco is another. The Rivian will appeal to those who want a prestigious “truck” for casual use, though I know there are people out there that buy full size 4x4s and use them for the identical casual use.
Someone that uses a truck for their work or business, has to get one that fulfills their specific mission. These same people also know quite well that you need to have the proper tool for any job, in fact they usually pride themselves on having a variety of tools available. That makes it easier to do the job properly and efficiently.
I really liked the old Explorer Sport Trac, and I think that the new Bronco and Hyundai Santa Cruz are really cute, but unsuited to my needs. I’ve got a long bed F150 and a big SUV, those work for me, but that doesn’t mean that they are the answer for everyone.
Saw one of these charging behind a hotel a few months back, only one I’ve seen so far.
I am old school about these things, but one of the disadvantages I have always perceived when thinking about a pickup for a daily driver concerns front/rear weight distribution. Back when there were small (Chevy Luv) pickups in operation in the fleet over here, we either loaded the bed with cinder blocks in the winter or prayed for heavy snow falls so that we’d have sufficient traction in the rear. To this day, I see 4wd pickups routinely spinning out because the drivers wrongly assume that 4wd will somehow combat a 10% or more front to rear weight bias in their pickups.
Supposedly the Rivian is well-balanced with a 51/49 distribution. I’m going to assume that the batteries have a lot to do with that. The Lightning is said to be even better (with the much-desired 50/50 distribution). But I do wonder what that distribution drives like with a fully-loaded cab and empty bed and 800hp (and perhaps not so seasonal tires)in slick conditions. It may never be an issue if you don’t live in snowy or slippery climes. But I can imagine that it’s not so great in 2″ of snow with an inexperienced driver (i.e., one who assumes, as many do in my neck of the woods, that a lack of traction can be addressed by stomping harder on the accelerator) behind the wheel. Traction control takes care of that? I hope so…
My point I guess is that maybe a very short bed pickup looks cool, but for practical purposes, in some situations, it may be more of a liability than a practical benefit.
It’s not an issue assuming that the car/truck has proper tires. It’s no different than any other vehicle in that regard. Every winter you see Trucks, SUVs, and cars in the ditch, 4WD or otherwise, Electric or Gasoline powered. The vast majority of them are there due to improper tires and not driving with attention to the conditions. There may well be 4WD pickups spinning out because they aren’t even in 4WD, this happens too. When I put my pickup into 4WD it’s FAR better than it is in 2WD, same with the Jeep, even with “normal” tires, with winter rated tires it’s a whole ‘nother class. Stopping and turning though, even with proper tires, takes longer than it does in the summer. Weight matters. And yes, driving a 6000 or 8000lb vehicle is VERY different on ice than a 3500 pound vehicle when it comes to stopping or turning.
I took the Tesla onto a frozen lake last year. We have winter tires on it in the winter. You can floor it on sheet ice and it will only use the amount of power that it can use to propel it forward. Or I can select a “slip” mode that allows for a small amount of wheelspin as in some conditions that will actually provide for more mobility. I can also lock it into 50/50 power front to back, normally a dual motor Tesla will use the rear motor as the default and only engage the front one as needed both from a power and a traction standpoint. As soon as it starts to slide or the tires start to spin it shuts down (or modulates) the power or engages stability control to make it do what the driver’s inputs are telling it to do. Some Tesla models have a “performance” mode that allows for wheelspin (such as on a track etc) and that allows for more wheelspin. This doesn’t mean that the car will save a driver in all circumstances, the laws of physics still apply to some extent, it is still possible to go too fast to make a turn and head straight off into the scenery, same as it ever was.
PS A “fully loaded” cab in a Rivian doesn’t look like it would alter the load much if at all. The back seat is pretty much centrally located between the axles. A traditional single cab long bed pickup would seem to be more susceptible to weight transfer based on cab and bed loads than any of the current electric pickups. Your real enemy/threat is something like a 2006 F150 4×4 that has neither traction control nor stability control and is still very common on the roads, never mind an F250 or 350.
I agree with Jim. It’s absolutely the tires that make a biggest difference. I live in a rural area with very long snowy winters, so I have lots of experience in this regard. I also drive a pickup as my daily driver. With premium winter tires on my truck, I can drive 90% or more of the time in 2WD with relative ease. 4WD does make a huge difference and can compensate for sub par tires. Lots of people with trucks use all terrain tires and use 4WD more often, but their braking and steering is terrible in comparison to a true winter tire.
Since modern trucks are typically crew cabs with short boxes, the weight distribution certainly isn’t anywhere as bad as the pick-ups of the past. In addition, the heavy weight of the modern trucks also helps make them more capable in the snow. When comparing my truck to my wife’s former late model Subaru Outback, the truck was far better in snow overall. There was no question which got used after a major snow event.
I’ve seen mainly “white” and/or “silver” ones. That “SUV” version looks interesting.
Rivian and Lordstown have had some hiccups, but this is natural with any new technology. I like the looks of the Rivian R1S…very sharp.
Hope they provide strong competition with Ford and especially GM which can’t find its way out of a paper bag.
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> I drove up to the event in our 2015 VW Golf. Even with its peppy 1.8T motor and 5 speed, our non-GTI Golf obviously has much less acceleration, and with its 185/60-15 all season tires
Those tires would be seriously undersized for a Golf; factory size is either 195/65-15 or 205/55-16 (I have one). 17 and 18″ wheels and tires can also be fitted.
Oops, another mistake. Our Golf has 195/65-15’s, as it’s a base model. Our 15 year older New Beetle had the 205/55-16’s. Either size seems massive to me as I had many cars with 155 to 175 section tires and even now with three vehicles 2015 or newer, have never owned anything with larger than 16” rims.
Apparently VW’s longtime use of the 196/65-15 size has a story behind it:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a42199000/volkswagen-195-65-r15-tires/
Actually for Winter tires you want the smallest wheel and chunkiest (high profile) tire that will fit on your car/truck. Brakes are usually the limiting factor.
Also true if you live in a state with bad roads. In Michigan we have had problems with tire, wheel and suspension damage from low profile tires.
The CC effect is in force – just a couple of evenings ago I was driving home from the office and caught sight of one of these in my rear view mirror. It was dark, but there is absolutely nothing with headlights more distinctive than a Rivian.
Rivian is burning through $4-5 billion per year. That’s vastly higher than Tesla’s cash burn ever was. If it weren’t for their huge (and overpriced IPO) they’d probably be bankrupt already. They have enough cash left for another year or maybe two, but even the potential profitability of their vehicles is still a big question. It will be interesting to see their trajectory the next couple of years. It’s going to be a very huge challenge.
In the news Ford losing billions with their electric trucks