So, Stellantis is now official, and trading in Stellantis stock has started in New York, Milan and Paris. This is, of course, the new company created by the merger of PSA and FCA, and is the fourth largest motor manufacturer in the world, behind VW, Toyota and Renault-Nissan. But pause for a moment and think of the brand names it operates ….
Abarth, Alfa-Romeo, Chrysler, Citroen, Dodge, DS, FIAT, IVECO, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, Opel, Peugeot, RAM, Vauxhall.
And those it owns and are lying dormant…
AMC, Atkinson, Autobianchi, Bedford, Clément-Bayard, Clément-Talbot, Commer, Darracq, Desoto, Eagle, ENASA, Essex, Fargo, Hillman, Hudson, Humber, Imperial, Kaiser, Karrier, Magirus Deutz, Nash, Panhard, Pegaso, Plymouth, Rambler, Seddon, Seddon-Atkinson, SIMCA, Singer, Sunbeam, Sunbeam-Talbot, Sunbeam-Talbot-Darracq, Talbot (twice, once British and once French), Unic, Willys-Overland…and the ones I’ve missed
Some old friends are getting back together here – SIMCA and FIAT, Citroen and Maserati, Chrysler and the Rootes Group brands for example.
Going forward, what will happen? Can we hope for a true revival of Alfa Romeo, to challenge the BMW sports saloons and coupes? Will the new electric Fiat city car become an Autobianchi? Is there a credible option for Peugeot, Citroen, Opel/Vauxhall and FIAT in the centre of the market? Will there be more of the Vauxhall-Opel model with the same car carrying different brands in different markets – could the French DS become Lancia in Italy for example, or some Opels become FIATs in Italy? How will the style strong Peugeot blend with any new vision of Lancia? How will Jeep fit with the rising trend for SUVs across the other brands? Would FIAT do better in the UK under a Hillman or Sunbeam badge (probably not, actually)? Is there any brand in the European side of the portfolio that could work in North America for a volume product? Can Chrysler survive? What is RAM and what is Dodge? Could the Opel Grandland or Peugeot 3008 make a credible Dodge Dart? Could the 508 make a Chrysler New Yorker? Will the AMC Pacer come back, as a re-badged DS3 for North America?
But some look vulnerable – Lancia, maybe DS and even Chrysler. And what is FIAT, outside the 500? Surely Alfa must be saved, somehow. Why Abarth and Alfa?
But at CC, we like looking back and considering options, choices and decisions, some right, some (with hindsight) wrong. So our QOTD is – which one do you want to be revived?
Personally, I’d quite like to see a Panhard PL24 for the 2020s, with electric power, agile road manners and light weight.
And perhaps a revived Sunbeam-Talbot 90 Convertible for the weekend. And an Imperial Convertible to keep at my place in Malibu.
But which one do you want to see again?
Problem is if they built a new car today, it would be a SUV and built off an existing chassis. I’m bored just thinking about it.
American Motors please. It would be nice if something homegrown came out of this miss mash.
Bring back the Gremlin!
Actually it’s St. Ellantis, the patron saint of poor build quality.
That’s a good one!
I’m just glad I’d swallowed my coffee before I scrolled down to this. Hilarious!
A lot of great names that don’t stand a chance in the world today.
Can we hope for a true revival of Alfa Romeo, to challenge the BMW sports saloons and coupes?
Yes and no. Alfa is high on their priority to grow and succeed. But given the market is shunning slaoons and coupes, why would they chase them with more sedans/coupes in a dying market? Two new Alfa crossovers are coming next year.
Will the new electric Fiat city car become an Autobianchi?
No. The last thing Stellantis needs is more brands. They’ve got their hands full already. And the Foat 500e is already established in that role. Why change that?
Is there a credible option for Peugeot, Citroen, Opel/Vauxhall and FIAT in the centre of the market?
Well, the PSA brands are profitable already. And clearly Fiat is not going to be stepping on their turf, and will focus on EV and niche/smaller cars in EU.
Will there be more of the Vauxhall-Opel model with the same car carrying different brands in different markets
Probably not. But there will undoubtedly be more platform sharing.
could the French DS become Lancia in Italy for example, or some Opels become FIATs in Italy?
Lancia is undoubtedly not long for this world.
How will Jeep fit with the rising trend for SUVs across the other brands?
Jeep has the strongest off-road oriented image and will be the single most important global brand at Stellantis for driving future growth.
Would FIAT do better in the UK under a Hillman or Sunbeam badge (probably not, actually)?
Did you really have to ask? There’s no way Stellantis is bringing back any of these long-dead brands. The last thing they need is more brands. Period. Nostalgia for the brands that rightfully/thankfully died many decades ago isn’t what Stellantis is all about.
Is there any brand in the European side of the portfolio that could work in North America for a volume product?
No. PSA talked for several years about bringing Peugeot back to the US, but that (rightfully) is very much on hold now. I’ve never seen how that was going to fly, and now Tavares does too.
Can Chrysler survive?
Maybe. Maybe not. Depends. It’s now a pretty marginal brand. Minivans aren’t exactly a hot and exciting thing to peg your brand on. The 300 is extremely old and very likely will not be replaced.
What is RAM and what is Dodge?
Ram is 100% trucks. And has been for over a decade. And Dodge is all high-performance/sporty ICE cars, a very specialized niche that is working, at least for the time being.
Could the Opel Grandland or Peugeot 3008 make a credible Dodge Dart?
They could conceivably make something with it in the US, but not a Dart. That name is dead. Why revive the name of a failure?
Could the 508 make a Chrysler New Yorker?
A new sedan in a dying market? No. Especially not with that name.
Will the AMC Pacer come back, as a re-badged DS3 for North America?
Absolutely. 100% certainty. You can bet on it.
And now I realize you’ve just been trolling me with these questions. 🙂
Maybe not you specifically, but the answer to many of my questions was clearly “No”….
Good to hear that the Pacer idea is go-er though.😉
You forgot Maxwell and Chalmers! 🙂
I have been scratching my head about how this is going to work. Are they going to do the kind of consolidating that will make them look and act like the 4th largest world carmaker? Or are they going to be like a modern version of Chrysler Europe (or Studebaker-Packard) with huge challenges to find the kind of synergies that will be necessary to make this really work.
I’m kind of agnostic on what they bring back. I would be happy with an updated Chrysler 300/Dodge Charger.
I have been scratching my head about how this is going to work.
I’m a bit surprised how many folks seem to have the same problem getting how this is going to work. And no, it’s certainly not like Chrysler Europe or S-P, by any stretch of the (nostalgic) imagination. The world is vastly different than then. I can’t find even the most remote relevance of either of those two examples to Stellantis.
The obvious primary benefit is to share the very high developmental costs of new platforms/technology, such as EVs and other high tech aspects such as integrated all-encompassing software (the single most crucial element of the future, but very expensive and hard to create), self-driving, etc..
The other key factor is to reduce costs in production by greater platform sharing. this is of course exactly how Tavares turned around Opel and made it profitable within a year.
FCA and PSA had strengths in different areas, both geographic and product mix. PSA is strong in Europe, obviously, and FCA in NA. Both are weak in China and Asia.
They will now combine forces to improve their position in weak geographic areas, thus a current big push with Jeep in Japan, which is working quite well. And a renewed push in China, which is fairly crucial, and again, Jeep will be the key factor.
Jeep is the crown jewel. As the world shifts inevitably to more off-road inspired vehicles, Jeep is the strongest global brand.
The synergies are all too obvious, and Tavares proved that with the Opel turnaround. He’s one of the top two or three automotive CEOs in the world. This is not by any stretch some sort of desperate marriage. Both companies were strong and highly profitable before the marriage. PSA had some of the highest profit margins in the industry, and FCA has been very profitable too. And they both had plenty of time to ponder carefully where the future synergies would be. This is neither a shotgun wedding, or a blind dive, or an ego-driven move.
The automotive landscape is going through the biggest change and challenges since the Depression. This merger is a logical consequence of both companies wanting to make sure they have the scale to compete in the coming/current battle of the giants. It’s not exactly going to be easy, but then Tavares doesn’t have any illusions about that. But these are both very profitable companies, and the expected result from the synergies is that they will be even more profitable in a merged company.
All good points. My concern is that nothing from FCA has been a big success in Europe (including a shrinking Fiat lately), nothing from PSA has been a success in the US and nothing from either of them has been a success in Asia (so far as I am aware, at least).
There are surely synergies to be gained in engineering and management. But neither Europe nor the US is a low-cost manufacturing country so I see only limited savings to be had there because there is essentially no duplication.
Perhaps they will be positioned for growth in other emerging markets like India or South America? I don’t know, but they are up against companies that are very well integrated throughout the world while they are a couple of standalone entities that will have some work to do in forming a cohesive whole. You have a high opinion of Tavares – I don’t know much about him, and you could well be right.
My concern is that nothing from FCA has been a big success in Europe (including a shrinking Fiat lately), nothing from PSA has been a success in the US
That’s actually a primary motivation for the merger. FCA and PSA are a complimentary fit, not a competitive one. If they were very competitive in each others’ back yard, not only would there have been resistance from regulators, but there wouldn’t be the natural fit it is, meaning they now have a genuine and more balanced global profile. And with much less downside, as the two complement each other.
Sure, they can’t magically be Toyota overnight. Nobody can. GM is completely out of the European market, is pulling out of India and cutting back in S. America. And their China market share is sliding considerably. And Ford has major regional weaknesses too. And so does Nissan-Renault. All except Toyota has weak areas. And Toyota’s share in Europe is growing for now, but not really all that big. Just barely enough to justify being there.
If foreign brands continue to lose share in China as they currently are to the domestic brands (something long anticipated), then maybe China is not so critical.
But as the global market continues to consolidate, and require similar solutions (EVs, comprehensive integrated software) Stellantis will have the scale to make the investments.
As an example of an alternative: Honda is going to have to have GM build its coming EVs, AVs, and integrated software for the US, as they cannot afford to develop their own. That’s a highy defensive position. All the small makers are going to have to have alliances or such with the remaining big makers. See what’s happened in Japan, all the smaller brands (Subaru, Suzuki, etc) are aligned with Toyota; Mitsubishi with Renault-Nissan.
Here’s a thought: cars in the future will be sold for cost, and all the profit will come from value-added software features: self-driving, streaming, entertainment, music, performance upgrades (via software), etc. This is where the real money/profits will come from, not the hardware. So being big enough to build your hardware cheaply enough, and being able to control/own your software are going to absolutely essential.
Look what happened in the handset market. That’s exactly where the car market is going. Batteries and an electric motor and a body = the case. But all the real money is in the apps, upgrades, streaming, etc…
Where is Nokia and Blackberry? And Apple is getting into cars…
Agree with most of this but I still suspect that the best return from EVs is to be the ARM (www.arm.com) of EVs, rather than the Ford or Toyota
I suspect that is what the Dyson car project was really about https://www.dyson.co.uk/newsroom/overview/features/june-2020/dyson-battery-electric-vehicle
Here’s a thought: cars in the future will be sold for cost, and all the profit will come from value-added software features: self-driving, streaming, entertainment, music, performance upgrades (via software), etc. This is where the real money/profits will come from, not the hardware. So being big enough to build your hardware cheaply enough, and being able to control/own your software are going to absolutely essential.
That does sound like what the printer manufacturers have been doing for so long. Sell the printers at cost or greatly below cost then sell the inkjet capsules or toners at higher cost. Some people chunk the perfectly functional printers once the capsules or toners are empty and buy new printers rather than replacement capsules and toners.
The biggest concern is whether the owners are willing to pay to continue subscriptions or to retain extra-cost features. The first owners have the complimentary use of OnStar, Mercedes me, etc. for first year, for example, then have the option of extending or terminating the subscriptions. If the manufacturers decide to make the subscription service mandatory after one-year of use, they could more or less force the owners to pay in order to use their vehicles.
Another concern is the second-hand market. Recently, Tesla has shocked and angered lot of buyers who expected to buy the Tesla from the first owners with the options included. Tesla chose to disable some extra-cost features and options when transferring the ownership to the next. If the next owners want those reactivated, they must pay extra. Will that also be adopted by other manufacturers as well?
This is something I and perhaps many others don’t want.
What I’m wondering about is the possibility of, say, a car that is sold as a Peugeot in Western Europe is sold as a Chrysler in North America.
Definitely no new or returning brands, there are too many out there already. What I do see happening is regional brands, where most car buyers don’t even realize what the car they’re driving was originally.
This has been going on for quite awhile, as, I believe, the first generation Nissan Versa was actually a Renault something-or-other. So Renault did come back to America, just not under their own name.
“Jeep is the crown jewel”. What do they build? Jeeps, Jeep derived light trucks, SUVs. Pretty much analogous to what they built in the late ’40s. I seem to recall a recent conversation where it was mostly agreed that these ’40s vehicles were a necessary design and budget compromise. And yet, today, Jeep is one of the strongest vehicle brands in the world, building essentially modern versions of their old “compromises”. It’s funny how the worm turns…
Not really. Vehicles like the Cherokee are very civilised. It’s not an extreme off-roader like the Wrangler.
I get a chuckle out of that statement. Quite a turnaround from the old reputation of, “Jeep, the company that kills every company that buys it.”
(Which was patently unfair, by the way, usually it was some failing company buying Jeep to expand their market.)
More like British Leyland. Too many marques selling the same types of cars. Everything will end up a Peugeot with different grills
They’ve got so many Talbots they ought to be joining up somehow with the Talbots women’s clothing label! A line of sweaters and jackets color-coordinated to the car interiors. Although those shameless efforts to market cars exclusively to women tend to bomb, e.g. the Dodge LaFemme.
Seriously, I can’t imagine that most of those dormant brands have any remaining meaning to non-collectors. To most people, a Hudson is something they were told Great-Grandpa drove. Possible exceptions are Autobianchi, Eagle, and maybe Willys due to its connection with Jeep (although it might make more sense to bring the name back as a Jeep MODEL name).
Also, the list of active brands is long enough as it is and needs some rationalization, so reviving one of the old ones must be low on the priority list.
About Chrysler 300
Back in 2018 during an industry review, I asked Ralph Gilles face to face will there be another generation of Chrysler 300? No, investment cannot be justified.
( however after Cadillac ATS/CTS were on the market, some sketches for future Chrysler sedans with those styling elements existed in the design studios )
( and btw, the situation isn’t a whole lot better for Charger/Challenger neither )
I drove a Chrysler 300 Touring V-6 from Vancouver to Saskatoon in 2018.
It drove like a twenty-some year old Mercedes-Benz E-class, because that’s what it is. It is more than overdue for replacement. I think the relatively cheap V-8 is the reason it stays in production. FCA makes loads of profits on each one. It’s been on sale for sixteen years now.
Chrysler 300, it is the last of its kind and somehow it outlived the rest ( Chevy Impala, Ford Crown Victoria, Mercury, Lincoln Town Car and Continental, Cadillac XTS/CT6 and Buick LaCrosse ), in a way I don’t think it makes sense. Its dies are probably getting as worn out as some Soviet Union model car dies ( joking, as they have obligations to meet industrial tolerances unlike Russians ), seeing how long they keep them intact.
Toyota Avalon, Genesis, Mercedes may not work in certain situations and Chrysler 300 fits right. ( representing Canada, perhaps )
The 300 is one of those very occasional cars that hits an obscure but compelling style mark (think Olds Aurora). That, plus a cheap V8, plus a shrinking but still sufficient customer cohort that wants such a car, plus ever-shrinking alternatives, tells the tale.
When I find myself lusting for a large V8 – powered RWD sedan, I always start with the Challenger, then go to the Charger for its four dours, then settle on the 300 because, hey I’m almost 65 and don’t want to add to the aging-boomer-in-a-hot-car dissonance. When I was a kid, kids drove Challengers and Chargers. that’s simply the way it is for me. Your mileage may vary.
In my humble opinion, Stellantis is a stable of second rate, weak brands, most of which are in decline, due to poor reliability and workmanship, and little presence in emerging markets. Of course this is why FCA and PSA merged. The weak clinging to each other.
Fortunately their weaknesses don’t ovelap too much so there’s logic in the merger. I sincerely hope they improve their core products. There’s so much potential for amazing products in future.
As for the old brands, it hurts my head to see that once famous General Motors pillars; Opel, Vauxhall and Bedford are now sharing an umbrella with the Mopar brands.
As for resurrection, I think Overland and Hillman would look great on some Jeeps.
Stellantis is a stable of second rate, weak brands, most of which are in decline, due to poor reliability and workmanship, and little presence in emerging markets. Of course this is why FCA and PSA merged. The weak clinging to each other.
Yup; losers both:
PSA’s 2019 net profits: $3.2 Billion
Profit margin: 8.5%, one of the highest in the industry, and all from volume (not genuine premium) brands in what is considered the most difficult market (Europe).
FCA’s 2019 net profit: $2.96 Billion.
Profit margin: 6.2% also one of the highest margins for a high-volume maker.
Ford’s 2019 profit margin was 6.1%.
Respectfully, Paul, past profits don’t indicate future strength. If these two firms had bright futures, they would not have merged, and avoided the associated expenses and risk.
Strong brands like Toyota and Honda aren’t merger contenders because they’re well positioned in the market to face future threats and opportunities without help.
Stellantis isn’t well positioned. FCA is dependent on profitable gas guzzling trucks and SUVS, a trend that won’t last forever. They’re facing potentially expensive emissions cheating investigation. They’re very weak on electric models, far behind the competition. Their revenues are already declining.
PSA is dependent on Europe, a crowded mature market faced with declining sales potential and ever increasing regulation, such as looming bans in ICE vehicles. Like FCA, PSA is weak on electrics, which by legislation is the future in their home markets.
Stellantis will need their profits to develop new, competitive products and new markets, a massive, expensive and time consuming task.
Obviously they each have weaknesses as well as strengths. The whole purpose of the exercise (merger) is to create a relatively stronger company, which seems like a reasonable expectation.
Many of their weaknesses (EVs, software) are going to be easier to address as a larger company. There will be lost of cost savings.
I’m not pumping their stock here. But Tavares turned around Opel, which had huge losses for many years, in just a year or so. If anyone can maximize the possibilities of this merger, it’s Tavares.
And just because these companies have weak spots isn’t a reason for them to not try to fix the by merging, right? What’s a better alternative?
Paul you and I are in agreement here. 🙂 Its logical to expect them to turn things around together. I maintain they are weak individually, especially in the long run, and are clinging to each other but as you say they’re stronger together. As I wrote, I sincerely hope they improve. I’m a big fan of their brands and I’d hate to see them go under.
My biggest concern for them is the delays in relevant new products, especially electrics. The future, the threats and opportunities have been obvious for some years. But Stellantis is simply so far behind. They’ve left it very late to take action. ICE bans in many of their core markets aren’t far away. And several competitors are so far ahead. Effective product development, introduction and support takes years and a lot of money, and even then, there’s no guarantee of success. Some other established electric car makers are still struggling in the face of Tesla’s overwhelming lead in product development. And there’s seven more new electric vehicle makers , (Rivian, Lucid, Nikola Byton and others), at least some of whom will have their electrics on the market before Stellantis does.
As you point out, they’re profitable now. I sincerely hope they take the long-term view and roll the profits into relevant products without delay. 😉
Given multi-year product lead times, the difficulty in anticipating consumer tastes and preferences well ahead of time, and now the evolution to hybrids and electrics, it seems to me largely a toss-up how some of these companies will do. A lot of it is being in the right place, at the right time, with the right product, with proper marketing and product support. A whole lot of variables there. So many ways to mess up the process and go astray. So many of the variables that are out of their hands (government policy, the economy, gas prices). I wish all the auto manufacturers well, both because of the neat products they create, and also the families who can pay for a food and roof, thanks to their employment as auto workers. But it just looks like so much of a crap-shoot to get it right.
Primary benefit of/reason for the merger:
Chief Executive Carlos Tavares said he was “very confident” of delivering its planned 5 billion euros ($6 billion) of synergies, including 80% within four years
That’s not exactly chump change.
FCA wasn’t in a good position going forward. Selling it off or merging it was Sergio’s plan from the beginning and R&D was limited to improve short term profits with the expectation that the buyer/partner could provide their tech.
For example the 2020 Journey and Caravan were not 50 state compliant, because they weren’t willing to spend the money to meet CA emissions. That meant they could only be sold and registered in 37 states.
Their strategy of relying on purchasing credits and paying fines to meet gov’t regulations was only going to get them so far.
Hey, Desoto could make a comeback…
DeSoto couldn’t even make a hatchback.
except for 1949 and ’50.
None! Let the departed brands Rest In Peace with dignity lest we get something like an EV crossover Plymouth RoadRunner.
A Road Runner EV? I’m jiggy with it, especially if it’s true to the original, i.e., a cheap, strippo, plug-in hotrod.
They should build it with an “Acme” branded set of batteries.
As twisted as it might sound, there are people who would buy them for that, alone.
Perhaps. I, however, will never buy any electric car.
Stellantis-that’s the best they could come up with? Paul is dead on. The landscape is rapidly changing. If one or two viable brands come out of this besides Jeep it will be a miracle.
The world certainly is changing, old farts like me will just have to learn to accept it. I saw a very good comparison test/review of the Ford Mach E, (hate the name) with a middle Tesla. It came off pretty well. There are big national legislative plans to ban ICEs by 2040, California is ahead of that curve. Oh well, I used to love driving electric bumper cars at the Fair when I was a kid!
I can stomach the electric part just fine, it’s the idea of having a Mustang marginally different looking than an Explorer in profile I will never, ever, accept.
As to the Mach E name, I get where it came from but I’m quite sure that no one on the naming comity spent much time in the northeast. In a non rhotic New England accent it sounds the exact same as the departed Mercury Marquis! Not exactly the desired image that they are trying to project.
Well, when the three-row version arrives just in time to twist the knife into XR7Matt a little deeper, it can be the Grand Mach-E.
Before you cry too much, try living with an EV for a couple of weeks. My experience, so far, has been wonderful.
First realization: You drive a lot less per day than you think you do.
The Mach-E should have been called the Ford Model E, taking into account Ford claimed that name when Tesla wanted to use it
Fold Ram back into Dodge.
I’ll take my bonus check now.
Why?
Exactly, why? To make some senior citizen happy that the trucks are once again being called what he knew them as a kid?
Ram’s developed one hell of a brand. Keep in mind, it was Dodge trucks that couldn’t compete with Ford and Chevrolet. It’s Ram trucks that are taking Chevrolet out to the woodshed.
Dodge Ram was still the name to the youngest people who can currently attain drivers licenses as kids. I don’t for one second buy the reasoning that the name change even slightly contributed to the pickups success over the last 10 years.
I didn’t hear him say that it did. Sounds to me like he’s just saying that the Ram brand has benefited substantially from the success of the…the brand.
Ram has been used on the these trucks for quite a few decades. dropping the Dodge part wasn’t exactly a big deal.
I think it was a good move. Brands are changing the way they’re used. Dodge has become a pretty narrowly focused brand, as have so many others. it’s not like you buy these at the Dodge dealer anymore, right?
That’s how I read it too, I don’t agree. Isn’t it just as likely the Ram brand has benefitted substantially from the success of the product itself? Better dependability, QC, good reviews, mistakes by the competition, ect.? Do you believe that Dodge was holding it back, or better yet would it hurt the Ram brand if it were rolled back under the Dodge umbrella? Now I don’t think they should do that (as Kevin asserted) but I don’t really don’t buy the idea that Ram’s success correlated with it spinning off, and in the grand scheme remain a skeptic that this trend of popular model names becoming brands themselves is really the savior these legacy corporations hope they’ll be.
Brands are changing the way they’re used. Dodge has become a pretty narrowly focused brand, as have so many others. it’s not like you buy these at the Dodge dealer anymore, right?
Well in the case of the second question, not all Ram dealers are separate, the one closest to me is a Dodge, Jeep, Chrysler, Ram, Fiat dealer, and at least in my more urban region it seems to be the norm. If you don’t see them at Dodge dealers or vice versa what you still will see are quite a few old Ram work trucks with clear ‘DODGE’ lettering on their tailgates that will keep that association in drivers minds for some time to come. Ram and Dodge marketing isn’t exactly that different, they’re both pretty closely selling machismo products with similar styling traits, it’s certainly not like the disparity between a Silverado and a Bolt over at Chevy.
If anything I think the remaining Dodge model, the Durango is likely to get folded into Ram or Jeep.
I’m actually surprised they didn’t now that you mention it, the Dakota was a mini Ram and Durango was spun off the Dakota. It would be redundant with the Grand Cherokee at Jeep though.
Seems like Paul has some good insights on what might be, but there are a couple of things that I disagree on. One is that there is – and will be – some Peugeot product that would work in the North American market. The 3008 and 5008 CUVs would be a good fit as either a Chrysler or Dodge. Second, I really think Stellantis will follow the lead of PSA as it worked on Opel and Vauxhall and just rebadge product specific to the market. They may call them another name, maybe not. Since sedans and hatches don’t seem to sell here, I don’t see how they would justify the cost to federalize those types of models, but if they do decide to do a sedan to replace the 300/Charger, using an old Alfa or Maserati platform with RWD architecture would be logical. Interesting that Orangechallenger said Gilles told him no replacement for that platform, it is likely still true. I don’t see the Peugeot or Citroen FWD platforms would really sell, as the main selling point of the old 300/Charger/Challenger seems to be they are RWD, and the only ones on the market offering that choice. Personally, I would love to see a 208 or 308 based small car offered as a Dodge, it would get me in the showroom, but likely few others.
I’m all for the return of the Panhard 24 as an EV. And bring back Talbot, too. If two wrongs don’t make a right, try a third time.
I fully agree on the Panhard. Doesn’t even need a restyle. Bish bash bosh.
I have owned four of these brands (Vauxhall, Citroen, Alfa-Romeo, Fiat), but the one I would like to see reclaimed is Lancia. Mechanically they have been so interesting and adventurous, although often not wisely. What reasonable company would simultaneously produce V4, V6 and flat 4 engines?
It’s amazing to see the variety of brands that are under this umbrella name now. As others have said, so many of these brands’ success is limited to a certain geographic area. Not one is strong in Australia.
I’m glad it’s not my job to make any sense of this portfolio. Though if for any reason they need another name for Jeep somewhere, Overland would be brilliant!
To say they’re not strong in Oz is rather akin to saying a glass of air is not strong wine – statistically, they barely exist, and for good reason.
And that’s because they make poor products, all of them. Some, even many, look great, and about the same number are interesting as designs or to drive, but they present the Japanese-spoiled Australian buyer with working products of sub-standard reliability. And when that buyer has lost patience and wants out, there is no resale value at all.
Truth is, Aussies weren’t buying Oz-made cars for the same reasons, and once mandated fleet purchases went away, the small core of folk prepared to part with their own hard-earned was revealed to be uneconomic. As each of these brands is here, even as imports.
Don’t believe Iveco is part of Stellantis. Fiat/Chrysler spun them off with CHN some years ago. Still part of Exor, but no direct relation to FCA or now Stellantis.
Correct. Latest spin-off: “On-Highway” and “Off-Higway”.
https://media.cnhindustrial.com/EUROPE/CNH-INDUSTRIAL-CORPORATE/cnh-industrial-presents–transform-2-win–strategy-for-stakeholder-value-creation-at-new-york-invest/s/2f245916-6000-4654-9de0-c22d0a2d267d
More Alfa Romeo is never a bad thing but what I’d really like to see is a rebirth of Lancia, I’d even be willing to give up Maserati in return as their low end can really only come down so far, but Alfa and Lancia certainly could move up the status ladder.
It’ll be exciting to see what’ll come down the pike over the next few years, Peugeot has various decent hybrids including at least one diesel-hybrid and several plug-in hybrids – they aren’t as unelectrified as people seem to think.
How is there possibly room for them both? In a market that is relentlessly compressing? What would Lancia be that Alfa isn’t, and vice-versa?
There seems to currently be room for both Citroen and Peugeot as well (never mind DS as well). Alfa could be the sporting arm and Lancia the luxury arm, similar to how Alfa and Maserati seem to operate now although it certainly appears that either brand could handle both brands’ portfolios. Or one of the three could handle all of them.
Just answering the main question posed by Roger.
Lancia should be the Stellantis hi end hot hatch brand.
Above the Golf GTi perhaps comparable to Audi’s S and RS models or perhaps positioned similar to SEAT’s new sub-brand CUPRA.
Alfa hatches are mostly forgettable like the Mito, I would certainly prefer a 10 year old Renault Megane RS Cup to a similar age Giulietta QV despite the latter being significantly cheaper locally.
Fiat did ruin the brand by positioning Lancia as some sort of Italian answer to Cadillac or Japan’s Mitsuoka.
A pretentious non-sporting luxury brand based on a low class platform, (in this case Fiat) with odious styling.
A new Integrale or Stratos would be welcome, both cars icons of there respective decades especially the Integrale despite being a hatchback designed in the 70’s, the Evo versions are iconic 90’s performance cars.
I have a much more pessimistic view of will happen. While past performance does not guarantee future results, I look to relatively recent history for my prognostication. The real prize here for PSA was Jeep/RAM, the rest is dross. After the merger of (not) equals, and the Cerberus Escapade, Fiat did a fine job of mining profits from North American Operations. FCA kept certain lines alive while they provided profits, but with the new overlords in charge now, I don’t see any reason for them to continue on with some lines and brands in the US.
I think Chrysler and Dodge are dead as soon as the cars they are hawking now get legislated out of existence. I really can’t say what will happen to the Euro makes, but I seriously doubt they will bother trying to launch a non-SUV line here, there’s no appetite for them. Even more so with brands that haven’t been in the US since 1990 or so. Stellantis can do the same thing as FCA did, make small “Jeeps” on Fiat or Peugeot or Opel platforms. The Wrangler will continue on for as long as it is profitable along with the RAM pick ups. Other commercial vehicles will be created like the whole inbred Euro van lineage currently exists. At least the names are cute… Who wouldn’t want their electrician’s van to be called Jumpy?
I wasn’t a huge fan of Sergio, but his predictions are coming true and this is a manifestation of that. Here in the US we’ve already kissed iconic brands goodbye, what’s a few more?
Slightly off topic, but I feel sorry for the poor people who will have to integrate PSA and FCA’s IT systems. One of my last assignments before I retired from IBM in 2015 were the Chrysler mainframe systems. I doubt the PSA people had managed to integrate the former GM divisions yet before this merger. And now they will have to do it all over again.
The bankers and executives make out when these big mergers occur. Everybody else suffers.
All large industrial mergers are hell on the IT folks. I started at Rockwell, got merged into Boeing, which also bought Hughes from GM, and finally the McDonnell takeover. Upper management wanted “common systems”. Some had legacy homegrown systems, Oracle, DB2, Unigraphics, Catia, etc. and this was just for Engineering. This was on top of hardware and service contracts from IBM, Dell, HP, Xerox to name a few.
I’m sure the same intellectually-ossified brain that came up with “Stellantis” spent the rest of its morally bankrupt capacity coming up with the word “synergies”. God, how I detest the deep-set dishonesty of corporate-speak. Mr Tavares will find 6 billion in synergies, and save the ship entire, will he?
Bollocks! The entire Euro market has far too much capacity amongst all these makes, so many factories will have to be shut and many jobs lost – with more again in the R&D side of each – to make Stolenlanterns, or whatevs, viable. That’s not synergy: that’s livelihoods, sunshine. And sure, it seems that consolidation is inevitable in the modern conjoined world, but bloody well call it for what it is.
The bright and shiny lie-speak gives me no confidence that Mr Tavares of StillTardis is any more substantial that it is. The experience of Ghosn doesn’t exactly fill me with optimism.
Anyway, if he is in any way serious about doing something useful, he needs to show some means by which to lift the quality game, across ALL this empire. Literally none of the StandDowness makers here are even close to a Toyota for that.
I’d bring back Standard, in its modern meaning. At least the bloody name would be honest!
“The entire Euro market has far too much capacity amongst all these makes, so many factories will have to be shut and many jobs lost”.
You just stated one of the compelling arguments for the merger. PSA has the majority of factories located in the EU. FCA has ones outside of there, outside of the EU rules on non-closures demanded to allow the merger. So that excess capacity will likely see closures of FCA plants located outside the EU. That leaves Canadian plants, some in Mexico, possibly India, South America, and even Turkey. Now, that does not lessen the pain of lost livelihoods, as many workers will see their jobs go away, but would that have happened inevitably, as the demand for product has gone down, and PSA or FCA separately would be more likely to shutter if not merged. A dead company closes factories, too, leaving the same result.
I have to think Tavares has some plans, as he must have with the acquisition of Opel/Vauxhall and the rapid change to profitability.
The whole issue of overcapacity (in general) has been plaguing us since before the 21st Century started. With Stellantis’ now immense manufacturing footprint there will be redundancies. This is a bit of a conundrum in my view as the Euro keeps getting stronger (at least now in this part of 2021) so I don’t think we’ll be shipping much product from Russelsheim, for example.
Speaking of Russelsheim, Carlos (Tavares, not Ghosn) clipped 3700 assembly jobs with an additional 2000 R&D jobs in Germany… Oddly, cutting your way to profitability is possible? Maybe not, as Opel already had a plan in place, but apparently the lingering Brexit debacle hosed Vauxhall’s business and in turn, Opel’s too. (https://www.autonews.com/blogs/opel-celebrates-historic-profit-after-decades-losses-under-gm)
For the North American market, the pound of flesh will likely come out of US and Canadian assembly operations. Seeing the state of the UAW and Unifor these days, I seriously doubt they’ll put up a better fight than IG Metall. The good news is for Mexico. Considering all of their trade pacts, location and exchange rates, they’ll clean up even further than they do now. I imagine there will be a similar situation for Turkey, as they seem to be the Mexico to Europe’s US and Canada.
It will be very interesting to see how Stellantis negotiates all of these new assets, especially North America.
I was struck by the original Dodge Bros. emblem’s similarity to the Star of David. A random Google search regarding this yieled this result, among others:
“One popular belief was that the symbol was chosen to anger their competitor Henry Ford, a notorious anti-Semite, though the Dodge Brothers Club insists it wasn’t so: they were friends at the time. Plus, the club points out, the “Star of David” was not universally linked to Judaism when the logo first appeared in 1914.
The brothers died in 1920 and never explained their decision. The “DB” star was discontinued for the 1939 models, perhaps because the company believed certain export markets would not buy a car with the link to the Jewish symbol. The Club newsletter editor suggested the “emblem is also a ‘Solomon’s Seal’ sign of interconnected spirits, as the brothers were.” Or the triangles could be the Greek letter Delta (for Dodge), or it was modeled after a law-enforcement badge. Or maybe they just liked how it looked.”
“God, how I detest the deep-set dishonesty of corporate-speak. Mr Tavares will find 6 billion in synergies, and save the ship entire, will he?”
I could not agree more with Justy Baum.
Synergies was a word I heard tossed around a lot at the time of the Daimler hi-jacking of Chrysler. When I see synergy used in a sentence, my B.S. meter goes to full red alert. I hope Chrysler, Dodge and Ram survives this, but I’m less hopeful I’d like to be.
As someone who had reason to follow mutiple mergers in the late 90’s and early aughts, I also cannot agree more with Justy Baum. I lost count of how many responses to regulators’ questions as to why they should approve mergers was the single word “synergies”; when what they really meant was “efficiencies” in the form of massive layoffs and facilities closures, in order to enrich the fat cats at the top.
The other day, KIA made the announcement it was seeking World Domination.
CEOs seeking World Domination are delusional!!
If in doubt, look at DaimlerChrysler; Renault-Nissan-Mitsi, or the old GM.
Hopefully, Carlos gets the message and picks his resources and his fights carefully.
Even Toyota understands this!!
DS is a brand that should have never existed. They should have pushed Citroen upmarket instead. But PSA doesn’t accept Citroen being positioned above Peugeot, so instead they tried to rewrite history and make DS a brand instead of Citroen’s most known vehicle ever, in order to have a premium brand.
And now, they have a full fledged premium brand in their hands, in the form of Alfa Romeo…