What do you do when multiple someones have already trumpeted the thunder of your latest subject?
Well, in my case, I would share some purely anecdotal stories about my family’s three year stretch of endless minivans. Week after week. Minivan after minivan. I bought, fixed and sold over 100 of these Barney themed rides to families and retirees, large and small.
But that’s already been done ad nauseam. Another article like that here would be like finding yourself stuck in the third row of a neglected 20 year old Chevy Astro without air conditioning. It would be a living hell in a highway handbasket.
So instead, let me introduce you to my world of buying and selling minivans to a far broader audience than you may expect. There is a lot of myth that comes with the common perceptions of minivans. Starting with…
Myth #1 : Minivan = Mommy
About a quarter of the folks who bought minivans from me during the 2003 to 2010 period were male retirees. Why? Minivans don’t require much bending to get in or out, and the visibility that comes with sitting high up in a vehicle loaded with big windows is a relief for those who want to see the road ahead.
A short wheel base minivan back in the day usually attracted plenty of older folks; especially those who appreciated the steep one year cliff of depreciation for American minivans. Thanks to changing demographics and Ebay, I used to do a rather large business with the million plus Floridian retirees who were usually within a $69 one way flight to Atlanta.
My wife would follow me in her own minivan with kids in tow to the airport. Once the customer’s plane landed, I would buy a Starbucks for them and wait until the never ending transit system at Atlanta’s Hartsfield International Airport finally allowed me to offer them the friendly handshake, the Starbucks, and the quick escort to the new vehicle. $2 would already be in one of the cupholders to take care of parking, and that was pretty much it.
A lot of older folks from all over the USA used to also fly down for conversion vans and wagons. San Diego, Tacoma, Maine through New England (where Volvos and large framed traditional wagons were hot), and plenty of nowhere places in the rust belt. They were always spread out. But when it came to sell minivans to the manly man, Florida always seemed to be the number one destination.
Myth #2: The Modern Day Mother Doesn’t Like Minivans
If anything, minivans symbolize practicality and a big fat, “Up yours macker-quacker! I like being a mommy!” to a lot of women who are perfectly happy with the mom image.
Nearly all of our friends with young kids drive minivans because, from their perspective, no other type of vehicle works better for raising a family. Child seats. An endless supply of baby and toddler items. Heck, you can even fit in a kiddie potty near the second row or captain’s chairs if you find that the outside habitat isn’t suitable for children when nature calls.
Diaper genies. DVD’s. Even the ultimate luxury of banning the children to the third row of Siberia is available for you with a minivan.
There is also one other thing which may be a bit taboo for a site like this… conservatism. From my experiences as a car dealer and Dad here in the south, minivans have a fairly loyal following among those parents who are social conservatives. I can’t say this any other way. When I visit churches out here, minivans are just all over the place. The same thing is true whenever I go to a Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts event: minivans are everywhere.
The rest of the country may be different. But here in the suburban south, minivans are the Chick-Fil-A of automotive offerings.
Myth #3: The Minivan Is Quintessential Americana
So long as you throw a little salsa into that Anerican mix, you are fine. That’s because most of the buyers for my older minivans are… Latino.
When these folks call me, I will always have to figure out two essential questions.
1) Cuanto?
How much?
2) Tiene un licensio de conducir en los Estados Unidos?
Do you have a US drivers license?
They always know the price of course. But Latinos are bar none the most pleasurable demographic group to negotiate with. They don’t do hard sells, phony sells, or what I would kindly term, condescending prick sells.
They look at the vehicle. Do a ‘sweet-sour-sweet’ of good, bad and good, and then make a polite offer. And with older minivans, they usually don’t have to offer very much.
I think minivans have their time and place. Are they my favorite ride of all time? Of course not! But when it comes to the big family dynamic, they are awfully hard to beat.
Excellent write-up and good observation, Steven. In Rhode Island I see tons of older male retirees driving minivans. My best friend is a 46 year old commercial fisherman. He just purchased a 1998 Dodge Caravan that his neighbor was selling because he wanted the extra cargo room for his daily catch and also he felt it would be comfortable to use for work every day as well. Minivans are a great way to have extra space and comfort. They are not just for families anymore.
I don’t know if I would call a 46yo an “older retiree” but ok.
Yes, they are very useful for moving stuff that doesn’t require towing. Almost all of the DJs on the car show circuit use minivans, people without kids but with pets (mainly dogs), and people in the vending business. When I go to flea markets, shows or anything with table based sellers minivans are popular. It goes like any other care purchase, or consumer item for that matter, there is usually a core demographic (that the product is usually stereotyped) but also a sub demographic that is overlooked.
There is a tremendous amount of market research on car buying and customers, almost census-like. Probably beyond the scope of this website, but it is fascinating. When I was at Oldsmobile, we knew also sorts of trends on customers. Here is an interesting fact, at least in 1985, Oldsmobile had the highest percentage of smokers of all GM divisions at the time.
That’s funny about Oldsmobile and smokers. I had no idea that type of market research was performed. Guess Olds were the perfect cars for my grandfather, as alone in his Oldsmobiles were one of the only places he smoked.
Of course that was in 1985 and the data was over time so we are talking 30 years ago. Smoking has dropped off considerably since then to where now there is probably no car or brand that can be termed “smoker’s car.” GM had a higher % of smokers than national average back then, but since smoking (based on surveys) is now mostly a blue collar thing where buying a brand new car is less prevalent, it is no wonder cigarette lighters and ash trays have disappeared from cars.
Look at any given feature and accessory, if you study them and study the people who drive those cars you will begin to put two and two together…
From my anecdotal observations if you own a GM J body that is still on the road you are actually required to smoke while driving.
Oh yes it is, and as Craig said, it’s fascinating.
One of the (many) variables is the income level of the target customer. Its tastes, how many children, trade…
‘I don’t know if I would call a 46yo an “older retiree”’…
A longtime commercial fisherman could be in tough shape by that age.
I never had a problem with driving our minivan which was good since I put most of the miles on it. It was the wife that decided that she wanted a SUV and as the old saying goes “If mama ain’t happy, nobody is happy”. Of course I made sure we got one with the V8 and class IV trailer tow package for the 3.73 gears and traction lock diff in the rear so it was “manly enough”.
Minivans are pretty much the Official Vehicle of Home Schoolers™, too.
Even though our two (home schooled) sons are graduated, working and on the verge of leaving home to start their own independent lives, the wife has already made it clear she wants another Grand Caravan when it comes time to replace our Gen 4 T&C. And I’m quite okay with that, too. They’re about the highest general-purpose/utility vehicles we’ve owned.
“Minivans are pretty much the Official Vehicle of Home Schoolers™, too.”
Same in the Mann Family, until GM stopped making minivans (the current family truckster is a carry-over from when dad used to work for GM as an engineer).
It’s true. My family had an Accord wagon, but the other home school families?
#1 Gen 2 Voyager > Venture
#2 Gen 2 Caravan > Venture
#4 Ford Windstar > Freestar
The resident environmentalist/fuel conscious family tried their best though: Nissan Axxess> ’92 Accord > Gen 3 Voyager.
Actually, many homeschoolers I know drive stretch Ford E-series or Chevy Express (or whatever the consumer model is called). But most of the rest, like us, have minivans.
Some excellent insight! I honestly can’t say what is the most common demographic for drivers of newer minivans here in southeastern Massachusetts. I’ll be on the lookout, but in all honesty I don’t see that many new minivans anymore. Large crossovers and compact luxury crossovers are far more common here. It seems like most new minivans I see are base Dodge Caravans (which a large percentage could be fleet vehicles) and loaded Honda Odysseys. Even the once common Toyota Siennas are getting scare. I will be on the lookout now, because this has made me very curious.
I see a ton of new Town & Countrys here in the Quad Cities. They actually outnumber new Caravans.
According to survey from US News, the political difference between minivan buyers is very small. Perhaps in suburban areas of the south there is more of a difference but evidently surveys aren’t picking it up nationally. Another fa tor may be whether we are talking new car buyers vs ownership. There is some pretty healthy demographic changes of buyers between a car’s new equivalent and used buyers.
I think that sums it up well.
I’ve pretty much focused on who does NOT like minivans; Steve knows who DOES. It’s interesting that the buyers, whether Euro-American or Latino, are straightforward – looking for an honest value at an honest price.
Which pretty much sums up the minivan. Perhaps it should be considered the Model T of the 21st Century: An honest car for the working people of this age, rural or otherwise. Straightforward transportation with utility over style.
Steve, hey it’s nice to hear something positive about minivans for a change. I’m a male, retired, I drive a 2008 Honda Odyssey and I love it. I like the seating position and the excellent visibility the Odyssey has. More importantly is the cargo capacity-I have a couple of Newfies(Newfoundlands for non-dog people) I take to dog shows of various types-obedience, water rescue, carting, etc. and there’s plenty of room for the dogs and all the associated gear.
“Tiene un licensio de conducir en los Estados Unidos?”
So you don’t look so much as a “gringo”, this is the correct form:
Tiene una licencia de conducir en los Estados Unidos?
Yes, license is feminine.
Mi culpa. No problema.
No worries there. It happens to all of us with a second language.
I also have from time to time my episodes of Engrish.
In California, it goes by “licencia de manejar.” When I sold cars in a farm community dduring the Eighties, the high-eye car for Latinos asking for a family car was invariably a Monte Carlo or Regal, even on the Ford lot. I found this amusing.
For many years I lived in the Park Cities (a.k.a. “the land that time forgot”) neighborhood of Dallas. The grade school car pick up line was ground zero for mommies and their vehicles. Mini vans were simply not allowed. The occasional mini van with out-of-state plates would show up in September. By Thanksgiving it would be gone, replaced by the de rigueur Suburban or other SUV. What fun to watch a 5’3″ mommie with mouse brown hair carefully bleached to blonde struggling to climb up and into the driver’s seat of a Ford Excursion.
Same thing here in Arkansas! Texas has been a really bad influence for us.
Still is fun to watch at the place I work, though replace Subs with Mercs and BMWs. Although I’m on the edge of UP and Dallas, the carpool times are fun to car-watch.
Hmmmmm still can’t figure out the reason behind that first picture, unless “mythology” in this case means some sort of polytheistic gods. Either that or Steve desperately needed one more picture and that one was in the public domain.
I wish they still made short wheelbase minivans like before. The Mazda 5 may count except I’d rather have a V6 even in my small minivan. The other issue is that minivans have gotten down right HUGE to where a current Toyota Sienna dwarfs all midsize sedans and many cars that are full size.
I suspect the photo in question is Steve Lang himself!
I thought the picture was used as an example of how driving minivans make you lose hair on your chest, but explode hair out of your jockeys.
That guy must use his sword to manscape, but doesn’t trust himself below the waist to do a close shave.
I don’t fit any of the stereotypical demographics – I’m a non-retired male and a godless urban liberal – but none-the-less I’m a big fan of minivans. To me their utility makes them much more of a “dad” vehicle than a “mom” vehicle. You can take out the seats and pile in whatever junk you need to haul from point A to point B, you can load them up with camping/fishing gear or bikes and still have room for the kids, all while getting acceptable gas mileage. Sure they’re boring to drive, but so’s an SUV/CUV and those offer half of the usable space and no advantage on fuel consumption.
Try being that in the rural south and you learn to shoot to live! Trust me on that.
After reading this post, I wonder what the demographic differences are between the minivan buyer and the suv buyer? And I’m thinking more about the family types. I doubt every SUV buyer tows or runs the rubicon every weekend.
I doubt every SUV buyer tows or runs the rubicon every weekend.
Most SUV/CUV buyers wet themselves when they have to park in a grass parking lot at the fair grounds. So no many do not tow or run the rubicon. SUV/CUV buyers like to drive around thinking they could.
I apologize in advance to every SUV/CUV buyer that uses their full capacity but you have to admit that easily 80% never do (with their first original owners anyway.)
If we were being fair, we could of course say the same thing about sports cars.
In Keith Bradsher’s 2000 book on the rise of the SUV, High and Mighty, marketers described SUV buyers as more insecure, vain, self-centered, and less likely to go to church than minivan drivers.
Over a decade later, as body-on-frame SUV’s have been largely supplanted by car-based crossovers, is that still true?
Not that he was biased or anything against SUVs.
I hear Ralph Nader wasn’t too keen on Corvairs too.
I bought a 2004 Odyssey new and enjoyed driving it. My coworkers enjoyed riding in it. But from early on I could feel the death rattles in the torque converter. After eight years and 50,000 miles, I knew the tranny was not long for this earth. I didn’t want to spend $4000 on a new trans, so I traded it in on a new car. Enjoyed it while I had it but was ready to part company when the time came and let someone else deal with the problem. Oh, and by the way, I’m a defrocked Catholic so I really don’t fit the profile.
Another minivan fan here. Actually, I was a full-sized van fan (like the 94 Club Wagon Chateau I owned for years) but then with gas prices what they are and my shrinking need for transporting lots of kids, the minivan is more practical.
I am currently on my third minivan- Odyssey, T&C and now a Kia Sedona. I have found things to like about each of them. My only consistent gripe is the transverse engine/fwd combo that makes service an expensive bitch on older minis.
Mrs. JPC likes them for the ease of entry and exit. Up high, but not up too high. I like them for the ease of carrying people and/or stuff. As someone recently said in a comment to another thread, if you buy a car by the cubic foot, these cannot be beat.
One thing Chrysler *improved* between Gen 3 and 4 is access to the rear bank of spark plugs. I paid to have the Gen 3 done, the Gen 4 took all of 20 minutes.
I have a small warm spot in my heart for minivans. Having grown up prior to the Caravan’s debut, I was carted around in midsized station wagons and my father’s Chevrolet Suburban. We had a neighbor with a full-size conversion van and even in the 80s I thought it was huge and tacky.
For the last few years I’ve been tossing around the idea of a conversion/camper minivan. A single or twin bed in the back, accessory electrical system, and a small icebox would make a great cross-country camper for a single man.
Yup, that’s what my Ram panel minivan was for.
Except that just after I got started, a VW Westfalia Vanagon appeared for sale…and I have a thing for flat-front vans. And there was no denying that the driving position and controls were head-and-shoulders above a Gen1 Dodge minivan.
But even before I got going with it, I used to sleep in the thing when my Navy ship was in port in Coronado. Nasty berthing; nasty bunkmates; nasty head. The gym on base was a better facility; and I had a foam mattress in back. End of the day, I’d just slip out there until six. Had a wind-up alarm clock.
And, yeah. I did travel cross-country with the thing. But finding camping sites on short notice isn’t always easy; and sleeping in truck stops is anything but restful.
If gas were taxed sufficiently to cover the military and environmental costs associated with oil, most minivan owners would find a more fuel efficient automobile to be quite adequate.
Yeah!
Lets make everyone driving something we don’t like, pay so much to do it, we can force them into doing what we want instead, even when it makes no sense for them to do it because, hey, we know more about what they need then they do, right? Why be pro-choice, when you can be self-righteous?
Your example is correct, but rare. 99.374% of the minivans I see on the road have no one in them but the driver.
If I was in charge of your mythical family, I’d own and drive a sensible small sedan for use 50 weeks a year, and rent a minivan for the vacation.
That lone driver…may be picking up the kids in ten minutes.
And, consider: that lone driver in a minivan is getting 25 miles per gallon. That’s what a Beetle used to get, back when Earth Day was a new thing. Beetles were “responsible” then. But somehow 25 miles a gallon has now become a dire risk to the planet.
In any event…isn’t it up to the driver, the owner, to determine what his/her needs are? Are you going to appreciate it, when THEY start dictating what kind of music you can listen to, whether you can get tattoos done in the city, what kind of clothing you have to wear to eat at some restaurants?
There was an expression that used to be popular when I was a kid. It was:
“MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.”
Who let all these sanctimonious, self-righteous blowhards out of the woodwork?
So, is this what hyperbole looks like?
And to answer the question of fuel efficiency, European MPVs and minivans often made do with highly efficient four-cylinder gas and diesel motors, but I don’t think the average American would appreciate the trade-off in cost of upkeep and performance in a straight line and under heavy loads.
With regard to point #3, I notice from my travels on the freeways of Southern California that the Mazda MPV, going back to the first generation, appears to be very popular with Latino moms. I’m wondering if the author has observed this in his dealings in the Atlanta area. Are/were these more popular in Mexico than here? Or is there something these families are seeing in the MPV that I never did?
Along with the MPV (which I don’t see a whole lot on this side of town), I see a lot of families with well-used, probably secondhand Ford Windstars, older Nissan Quests, and other minivans that were considered second-tier when new. I would guess the reason that if you’re primarily looking for a used minivan that can haul the kids around and don’t have a lot of cash to spare (not unlikely, given California unemployment and housing costs), vehicles in lower demand — with consequently lower prices used — can be good value, especially if your priorities are “does it run?” and “will it probably keep running for a while without costing me a fortune?”
I liked my Gen 1 MPV because it was comfy. It was based on the 929 platform I believe, so had a plush ride and was nice and quiet. The Gen 1 is pretty much free these days, so it’s a lot of comfort for not much money.
My MPV had the typical problem of car-as-minivan conversions that you could either take 7 people or their luggage, not both. And even with the back seats folded up, it was a struggle to get big loads in.
My current TownAce in contrast is very much based on a van. It’s slow, noisy and the ride is far from soothing. But it takes 8 people and their luggage, and when I lay the seats down flat it takes a full size sheet of plasterboard.
I’m the demographic that appreciates both minivans and Mr Jock Strapp in the first picture. Lots of room for the big boys in the back!
😀
So thats where he’s keeping them, because they’re not in front.
Absolutely agree on the Latino population being generally big fans of minivans. I live in Washington Heights in Manhattan, and the neighborhood is very much Dominican with some Puerto Ricans. On every block, no joke, there is AT LEAST one Nissan Quest/Mercury Villager twin. The first generation twins are rare. It’s the second generation ones, and they are more common than anything else. Very interesting because they were always outsold by the Chrysler triplets, GM and Japanese vans but you wouldn’t know it by looking here. Astro vans are fairly common too. Really it’s just minivanville.
I see plenty of first and second gen Quests and Villagers here in the Midwest. I’ve even seen a Nautica edition, in blue and white with the blue and white leather interior. A little rough around the edges, but still in use!
our 2011 sienna has served us quite nicely and in comfort. having 3 toddlers the last thing i want to think about is unreliable transportation. so far it already has a few proud battle scars. the wife scraped the rear bumper backing into another person at the grocery store, and myself dented the sliding door scraping the van against the side of a garage trying to get its fat ass around a tight corner after rescuing a derelict chevy that needed a jump start.
Although we now have a 2009 Accord and a 2003 Silverado pickup, I’ve been thinking of late that a Mustang and a used minivan would be just as useful for us. The minivan would handle the craft show loads as well as the pickup does, and the Mustang would be more fun to drive than the Accord. The minivan would end up catching a lot of the grocery and costco runs that the Accord does now.
Be careful – taking a minivan to Costco instead of an Accord will increase your average transaction at Costco by about 20% (because you can carry so much more stuff home). 🙂
I’m a young-ish single male and I drive an ’06 Caravan. I think you cannot beat this vehicle for overall comfort, dependability, and utility. I have a strange job so I drive about 1,000 miles a week on average and I like the stretch out comfort. I never feel cramped after 8-11 hours of driving. It’s great to go yard saling/goodwill in and great for taking my parents and other family members – and partiers around. 7 people + luggage can fit comfortably, even in the third row . . . Great for impromptu trips and much more useful than a truck for Home Depot excursions because it’s LOCKED and secure, so for those occasions when you end up at Home Depot buying one thing, but they’re out of the other things you need, you don’t worry about your things getting wet or stolen on the way to your other destination. I cannot imagine what else functions equally well as a truck and a sedan. A friend has a Suburban which drives . . . like a truck . . . and I don’t get the CUV thing. It’s a minivan, but the inside is made smaller and less practical? That makes NO sense.
I wonder if minivans appear to skew conservative simply because conservatives have larger families? That is, a liberal family with 3 kids would be just as likely to buy a miniavn as a same-size conservative family?
On the few occasions I’ve driven minivans, they have been great long-distance cruisers. But not so much fun when the road gets twisty or a burst of speed is needed. Perhaps there’s a market for a true premium minivan. Think BMW x5 performance and luxury, but in an uncompromised minivan shape. (The Mercedes R-class was neither fish nor fowl–it lacked the sex appeal of an SUV, but didn’t offer real minivan practicality either.)
I abhor most minivans with the exception of these…
2012+ Nissan Quest. A wider version of the Japan-market Nissan Elgrand and built in Japan. The JDM minivan.
Ford Flex. The Range Rover of minivans.
Mercedes R-class. My Dad wants a used one. Easier to get in and out of than a sedan (too low) or crossover (too high). I think they look great.
The low volume and niche appeal of these will make them collectible some day.
Heck yeah. You forgot to mention that they get better gas mileage than an SUV, are more reliable, and cheaper in every aspect. My son is taking the Nissan that be came from the hospital at birth to college this year. He loves it. I can’t figure out why youngsters haven’t been scooping them up and throwing in nice head units.
I was just about to comment that a successful minivan ownership experience seems to include putting the “Baby On Board” sign and soaping “LET’S GO SENIORS 20xx” on the windows of the same van.
Did you ever see this guy who turbocharged the heck out of a Dodge Caravan.
http://www.turbovan.net/van.html
I can’t comment on the personal or political beliefs and/or educational choices of minivan owners other than to say I see plenty of minivans of all types and ages with Democratic and/or public school stickers on them (but I live in a very blue area whose public schools are a major attraction to newcomers). Then again, I see more Catholic-school stickers on midsize BOF SUVs than anything else now that I think about it…
I will say that minivans attract more than their share of people who plan to drive them into the ground rather than trade up frequently. Maybe it’s the whole lifestage-not-lifestyle thing; you have the kids, you have the minivan, you wait for the kids to outgrow getting hauled around in the minivan, then upgrade to something else not another minivan .
At that, I’d say the thirdgen Mopars are among the most-common ’90s vehicles still on the road in my salt-infested area, right up there with pickups and Honda Civics, in conditions ranging from pristine to used up and rusted out.