There’s been a lot of teeth gnashing over the death of the domestically-built Australian Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon. Sure, as enthusiasts, they were examples of a dying breed of sporty RWD sedans. But what’s the market size for sporty RWD sedans in Australia, a country of 24 million, which would rank third in the US, between Texas and Florida?
What a lot of car enthusiasts forget is that the Holden and Falcon didn’t start out to be enthusiast cars; they were mainstream family cars. But in that role, they were eclipsed a long time ago by much better alternatives. Already over ten years ago, the Toyota Corolla was Australia’s #1 choice for retail buyers. And of course, that’s only strengthened since then. Why? Did you have to ask?
Let’s put the Corolla’s absolutely impeccable reliability aside for a minute. How about just its ability to carry 4-5 adults in comfort? Check out these interior dimension stats; except for width, the Corolla equals or exceeds the much bigger and heavier Commodore and Falcon, especially in rear seat leg room. Ever sit in a current generation Corolla? It’s remarkably roomy.
Then of course there fuel efficiency. With gas in Australia selling for some $4.50 USD per gallon, the Corolla (and other top selling FWD cars like the Mazda 3 and such) have it all over the Holden and Falcon.
The simple reality is that RWD sedans painted themselves into a corner, one that was not, and has not been relevant to mainstream Australian car buyers for a long time. To think that a country the size of Australia could support two manufacturers of a dying configuration of RWD sedan is, and has for a long time been absurd.
The same reasons why there’s essentially no more RWD sedans in the US (save the slowly dying Chrysler 300) is why the Camry is the best selling car in the US. Efficiency and reliability invariably trumps, for the average buyer. The old formula of US-style RWD sedans as a family vehicle has been outdated for quite a few decades. The Commodore and Falcon were doomed a long time ago.
Update: here’s the top ten selling vehicles in Australia in 2017:
- Toyota HiLux – 47,093.
- Ford Ranger – 42,728.
- Toyota Corolla – 37,353.
- Mazda3 – 32,690.
- Hyundai i30 – 28,780.
- Mazda CX-5 – 25,831.
- Hyundai Tucson – 23,828.
- Holden Commodore – 23,676.
The tales I’ve always heard involved Australian roads being so horrid that unibody cars like the first Falcon and Valiant couldn’t withstand the punishment. This was the implied reason for the necessity of body-on-frame cars.
So have the roads gotten better, or have unibody designs become stronger and more durable?
The Falcon was unibody for it’s whole run, as was the Commodore.
XR7Matt
I thought your recent comments about the decline of sedans were very perceptive. Perhaps you might want to speculate as to why the Australians are content with a mere Corolla and not a CUV.
Well I can’t truly weigh in from a purely American perspective, but I’d have to guess it’s a combination of local flavors, fuel cost and regulatory differences(as mentioned in the sedan topic, the US light truck classification has to some degree helped the growth of the segment). I know in the past imported cars had to be beefed up for the rougher Australian terrain, but I’m not sure just how rough that terrain still is in 2018, but regardless, modern cars are intrinsically more robust out of the box to handle it, and CUVs wouldn’t necessarily cope with it any better than cars since CUVs are underpinned by conventional car chassis, even ground clearance isn’t much improved.
Yes but that doesn’t explain why they shifted away from sedans such as the Commodore and Falcon but towards sedans such as the Corolla, irrespective of whether it’s a 4door sedan or wagon. Maybe they are considered to be just better in many areas without losing much if anything in other aspects such as interior dimensions.
In the US, the Accord and Camry (and early Taurus) also supplanted (often larger) RWD sedans. The whole full-blown CUV trend here is more recent and involves supplanting the Accord and Camry form factor itself.
It’s interesting that you consider modern cars to be intrinsically more robust, on the surface much of the commentariat here seems to be of the mindset that older cars are better, more solid, and longer-lasting. Clearly that’s not really true and once reliability and lower repair frequency are considered (along with safety), the newer cars are an obvious choice (aside from specialist enthusiast cars where certain anachronistic traits are prized, but that market share is miniscule)
Hello; it’s 2018! 9x% of driving in Australia undoubtedly is in and around the big cities which have a thing called…motorways.
It’s not 1959 anymore, folks!
And those that live in the boonies buy appropriate trucks/SUVs for the job.
BTW, the two best selling vehicles in AUS is the Toyota Hilux and the Ford Ranger. Corolla is the best selling passenger car.
Yes. What I meant was that when Ford and Chrysler sent over the Falcon and Valiant (respectively), the “American” cars weren’t durable enough for Australian conditions and they needed to be Australian-ized to withstand the roads.
I had thought you meant that they were converted to body on frame, which wasn’t the case. The early Falcons got upgraded using Fairlane suspension components and had some of the structure beefed up to make them more durable as I recall. Unibodies aren’t weaker than BOF, only thing it offers is better road isolation.
This makes a lot more sense than what you said earlier about automakers having been forced by Australian road conditions to switch from unibody to body-on-frame.
UNibodies are so much tougher than BOF cars and have been built mainstream since the late 30s. The Valiants survived just fine in Australian conditions considering where they designed 14 inch wheels was the only mod the Falcon was a bit under engineered but that issue was mostly solved by the late 60s.
Roads have certainly improved since the sixties. But as they have improved, the amount of traffic on them has increased exponentially. More people live in the cities nowadays, as there has been a steady movement off the farms with the decline of the rural sector. And most migrants seem to want to stay in the cities too.
Our capital cities are huge relative to the population elsewhere in the state. People leaving the city to explore the countryside or outback are more likely to do so in an SUV or dual-cab pickup that a large sedan – vehicular choices that largely didn’t exist sixty years ago.
Even in my lifetime, it’s true that a lot of dirt roads have gone and freeways multiplied, but the whole bush-living thing has really been a bit of Aussie bulldust for a long, long time. We have been one of the most urbanised populations in the world since the 1880’s!
We’re both small-town-country born. We shook the city dust off our feet back in ’90. I haven’t been to Melbourne for about five years. Hate the place. I realise we’re in a minority, but I love the peace and quiet of a country town; there’s a city 25km away if we need it.
I envy you. Melbourne has expanded far too quickly for the infrastructure.
Er…not sure where you’ve heard those stories, Evan, but they’re baseless from just about every angle. You done been told fish stories.
Not entirely baseless – Ford Australia did some pretty significant strengthening of the early Falcon bodyshell, with the reinforcements similar what were used for the hardtop going under all cars, and the hardtops had something more like the convertible structure. The bigger issue was the early suspension of course. Valiants were much better apart from cracking the chassis rail where the RH steering box was mounted.
No idea where the body-on-frame part comes in though.
Er…not sure where you’ve heard those stories, Evan
Quite likely here at CC.
Daniel, the issues with the Falcon initially are very well documented and have been discussed here numerous times. And I’ve heard about the Valiant issue that John referred to also. These are both common knowledge.
The Australian Falcon got the 1962 US Fairlane’s stronger suspension in ’62, and that solved the suspension issue. The US Falcon with the optional V8 got that suspension too, starting in 1962. It includes the 5 bolt hubs, 14″ wheels and bigger brakes. Same as the V8 Mustang too.
The gripe is that the Falcon and RWD Commodore have neither been replaced by cars that will properly succeed them, nor remarkable enough to topple Toyota’s dominance and make them competitive with the “chosen brand”. At least in their old format they offered variety for buyers rather than nondescript also-rans like the Ford Mondeo or Opel Insignia, not to mention jobs and a national identity.
What a lot of car enthusiasts forget is that the Holden and Falcon didn’t start out to be enthusiast cars; they were mainstream family cars.
They were consistently localized in engineering and equipment to suit the local environment and tastes. They weren’t simple grille jobs, and when they were they didn’t stay that way. Holden had the ability to make lemonade from Opel’s lemons, and that ability has been taken away with the loss of local manufacturing.
What does “properly succeed” mean in terms of the average mid-level Falcon and Commodore? Is it a way to transport 4 or 5 people in reasonable comfort across town or between large cities on highways?
I think there are plenty of cars that do just fine at this task, just like over here. Clearly the overall market agrees. GM and Ford didn’t decide to stop production because the sales were setting records year over year. Just like over here. Toyota and Mitsubishi (and likely others?) themselves had production facilities set up in Australia over the years as well. People start to look at those cars as “local” ones. Viewed completely dispassionately, while Holden is the local outpost of GM, the reality is that GM and Ford are no more “Australian” than Toyota or Mitsubishi in the strictly financial HQ sense. All are foreign brands with a mothership located overseas.
If the RWD is the important part, eh, I don’t think so. Even over here with the Chrysler 300 for example, the small minority of them that are sold as SRT’s or RT’s with a larger than 6liter engine, sure, that’s hard to replicate, but for the vast majority that are sold with the 3.6l Pentastar, the average (majority) comsumer would likely be as well served by any number of FWD options on the market. Chrysler isn’t likely to replace the 300 with another RWD platform either.
As far as not being competitive with the Toyota and others in the eyes of the market, that’s entirely on Ford and GM. One can’t blame Toyota for, over many decades, building up a general reputation of quality and value for money. Ford and GM certainly have had the resources at their disposal to do better, however through either arrogance, myopicness, or simply incompetence, decided not to.
This doesn’t mean that I can’t or don’t admire cars like the one Ed Stembridge bought etc. (I do), those are very impressive vehicles, however if the manufacturer can’t get the greater market to embrace the underlying platform, then that leaves no choice but to discontinue the performance variants as well.
Properly succeeded meaning making remarkable cars, the RWD Commodore and Falcon may have been out of touch as mainstream sedans but they were well engineered world class as RWD sedans with their own flavor. The Ford Mondeo and Opel Insignia are just ok, nothing for Toyota to fear, nothing for locals to woo over, just perennial also-rans from brands that once had a reason to exist. That’s exactly how American cars have been looked at since the 80s. If the goal is simply to make cars “transport 4 or 5 people in reasonable comfort across town or between large cities on highways”, why even have the variety of brands and models at all?
Also, RWD may hurt a mainstream car salability in many parts of the US and Europe, but it poses no issue in a climate such as Australia. The rest of the world, including Ford and GM, made the transition to FWD almost 40 years ago when Australia’s local production was still feasible and doing fine, yet they continued with rear drivers. Obviously it seemed to work.
The Mondeo and new ZB Commodore are quite good cars, hardly also-rans. The problem is, now that there’s no fleet incentive to “buy Australian” and no V8s to lure people into showrooms – and towards the end, a large percentage of Commo sales were V8s – they become just another option in the mid-size segment. And if you thought the full-size (Falcon/Commodore) segment was terminal, the mid-size segment has been in decline since the 80s. The Camry outsells the next biggest seller, the Mazda6 (keep in mind, Mazda is the #2 brand here) by something like 6-to-1, and that’s helped by fleet buy Australian requirements.
I entirely agree, I think we just differed on our takes on the of the meaning of also-ran, to me that doesn’t mean bad or mediocre, it’s just something following the standard set elsewhere, along with many others, and getting lost in the shuffle.
I’m curious if economic factors have figured into this too. Australia (at least the big cities) have a high cost of living. Are average Australian families seeking out more economical cars?
It also seems like foreign exchange would factor in too. The Australian dollar is a lot stronger than it was in past decades. There was a time where Australian large cars and utes were sold in South Africa creating a larger customer base, justifying a large operation for a relatively small country by population.
Cost of living in the cities is very high due to real estate values, so definitely people are looking for cheaper cars. Not everyone has been part of the boom either, which was over about 10 years ago now.
The AUD is now in the mid 70-cent range against the USD which is not far from where it was for a long time. A far cry from when it was at/around parity after the GFC.
For many people, Holden was the default car brand – and probably had been for their parents and maybe grandparents. This loyalty has tapered off quite a lot over the years, but it’s still been there. Holden was Australian. Kinda like generations of Americans bought Chevy. Market share is way down to what it used to be, but it’s American.
But imagine if GM stopped all US production and made Chevy an import-only brand, and you’ll get how Aussies feel.
I like Falcodores, I bought one (admittedly built when they were a bit more agricultural) – but “world class”? They only competed against each other really. If you want to compare them to other RWD sedans you’re looking at Chrysler, Benz and BMW, and then you’re comparing apples and oranges.
Dead right, except for the VE/VF Commodore, which actually was, dynamically and structurally, world class. (Just not engines or overall build quality).
I wouldn’t really say the Chrysler competition is world-class either, though I am a 300 fan.
They were consistently localized in engineering and equipment to suit the local environment and tastes.
Obviously not. Their retail sales have been dying for decades; only subsidized fleet sales kept them alive this long. And what are these “local conditions”? 90+% percent of Australians live in cities, and drive on freeways and smooth roads. There’s nothing that made the Commodore and Falcon better suited for that; quite the contrary. They were space-inefficient,expensive, thirsty and not as reliable as a Toyota. In other words, what really killed them off is precisely the opposite: they failed to adapt/evolve to the changing conditions of modern urban life. They were living dinosaurs.
It’s a shame, though, that Australia built more fuel-efficient large sedans (Camry Hybrid, Falcon 2.0 EcoBoost), built small cars (Holden Cruze), and even Ford was relatively early to the family crossover segment with the Territory – not to mention, the Cruze and Territory were regular Top 10 sellers – but the industry still couldn’t survive, even when they were “building cars people actually want” and adapting to the market.
Ford deserves credit for actually offering a fuel-efficient four-cylinder Falcon but deserves a rap on the knuckles for barely promoting it (most people don’t even know it exists). Holden deserves a rap on the knuckles for never bothering to develop a four-cylinder VE/VF… the 3.0 V6 was still fairly thirsty and lacked the torque of the 3.6.
Another factor that impeded the Falcon and Commodore? Image. Eventually, the Falcodore earned a reputation as a “bogan” car.
Ha! That last line, William, is one of the biggest X factors of all. (For others reading, “bogan” equates very approximately to urban redneck, with slightly more affection). From being cars that their dads aspired to, for many they became ones quite specifically to avoid. I hear it most from the mid-teens to early 20’s crowd, especially about the Commodore. The V8 Supercar racing series between the two cars (for the US, think NASCAR, thought at least not stuck on an oval) may just have ended up putting off more buyers than it gained loyalists. (Like NASCAR, it’s not associated with, um, shall we say, deep sophistication). Perhaps yet another example of the world fracturing into tribes; in this case, Holden and Ford kinda backed the dwindling one.
Exactly. Dad owned Falcons, so I grew up in the Ford tribe. But I’ve never owned one because of the lack of sophistication even I noticed in the road car, never mind the race car! There’s better driving enjoyment for the money to be had in a smaller FWD car. Easier to park, too. Falcons and Commodores are a tight fit in ever-shrinking city parking spots.
Very true Justy, and why it seems Ford does not want to be part of Supercars racing in the future.
Old Pete – thanks to the way the Aust Standard is set up car spaces can be on the small side if developers cheat the system (eg parking intended for all-day use can be narrower than casual parking at a shopping centre), but it is another demerit to the Commodore in particular increasing in size. The fact that about 20% of vehicle sales (ie pickups) are substantially larger than the 99th-percentile vehicle size isn’t helping!
Are most Corollas in Australia sedans or some other body style? Thank you for the article.
There is also the 5 door hatch (Corolla iM / Auris in other parts of the world). It would be interesting to see the sales breakdown between the two body styles. One very important distinction regarding the hatch is it rides on a 102.4 inch wheelbase, and is much smaller inside. Rear seat legroom drops drastically to 32.7 inches.
The Auris (C-segment / compact) is available as hatchback and wagon.
Going by what I see on the road, I suspect more hatches are sold. Or perhaps I’m not noticing the sedans.
Definitely hatches, by far.
In that segment, hatches dominate and sedan buyers tend to trend older. Same with the segment below, although there hatches are even more prominent.
Thanks for verifying that. I wasn’t sure, as Toyota’s sedans tend to be invisible….
As of 2015, the ratio for Corolla was 70% hatch to 30% sedan
Totally different picture in Europe. Nobody here seems to care for generic (or maybe geriatric is a better description..?) Japanese appliances -I mean, just look at that Corolla- and their market share has been dwindling for years.
The European top ten over 2017 (market share):
1. Volkswagen AG (23,7%)
2. PSA Group (12%)
3. Renault Group (10,4%)
4. FCA Group (6,9%)
5. Ford (6,7%)
6. BMW Group (6,5%)
7. Daimler AG (6,3%)
8. Toyota Group (4,6%)
9. GM (4,1%)
10. Nissan (3,7%)
I assume that with FCA you mean mainly Fiat (i.e. not at all Dodge, Chrysler, Ram) and with GM you mean mainly Open/Vauxhall as opposed to Chevrolet, Cadillac etc.
If you were to break that down further though, wouldn’t it be true that for the mass-market marques at least, that their greatest market by far would be their home market (PSA and Renault in France, VW in Germany, Fiat in Italy) as opposed to truly pan-european?
The up-level marques (MB, Audi, BMW have for years (decades?) been considered aspirational and desirable and when offered as options in company car fleets have for a long time been preferred over Ford and Opel etc.
Maintenance and repair of European marques is I believe easier in Europe if only because of their wide-spread acceptance over decades and the fact that people grew up on fixing VW’s and Fords instead of Hondas or Nissans, i.e. easy familiarity and very wide-spread parts supply.
I believe Germany’s ADAC has rated Hyundai as their most reliable marque for the most recent years and their market share has been increasing. However they and the Japanese don’t necessarily have the depth and breadth of the offerings of the domestics.
I also believe that Western Europe “gets it” in regard to supporting local players as opposed to foreign ones. With the advent of the EU body, that only makes it harder for the Asians to succeed. If you compare it to the US, you’ll note that the Asians worked inward from the coasts when they started out. Even today there are still easily noticeably fewer foreign cars in middle states than closer to the coasts. However, the imports building production plants in the US has helped that tremendously. People are starting to get it. Nissan’s are all over Tennessee, Honda’s are all over Ohio etc. Some of our own writers and contributors have brands in their driveways that they never would have considered a decade or two ago. And I think that’s due to the domestics over many years taking the home market for granted and even in many cases actually moving the production of home-market cars out of the country. Along with of course turning out utter crap in some cases and thus providing an opening for another marque.
“Europeans buy European cars due to jingoism”. One of CC’s favourite myths.
Of course brands are strongest in their home market – for brand equity & dealer network reasons as much as anything. Ford tends to top the sales charts in the UK and they also have the biggest dealer network – chicken or egg?
I read suggestions on CC that Nissan sells well in the UK purely because of local manufacturing, which doesn’t explain why they so comprehensively outsell Toyota, which also builds cars here.
Yes, FCA’s European sales are mainly Fiat and Alfa Romeo. I seem to remember that Chrysler, Dodge and Ram were pulled out of the European market due to continuous slow sales. As for GM’s statistics: Opel was acquired by PSA somewhere during last year. However, I can’t think of any other GM brand with European sales big enough to make #9, so this must be Opel. VW is big across Europe, not only Germany. Same goes for PSA and Renault. These are true mass market brands and definitely not dependent on sales in their home countries.
There was a time -roughly mid 70’s to mid 90’s- when Japanese brands were quite popular in Europe. Hondas, Datsuns/Nissans and Toyotas were considered reliable, well handling cars with great fuel economy, albeit prone to rust. From the mid 90’s Japanese brands were starting to lose market share and I believe this was mainly -at least that’s what I’ve heard- because Japanese cars became THE car of choice for the elderly. If you were under 55 you just wouldn’t be caught dead in a Japanese car and the increasingly bland/geriatric designs of mainly Toyota and Nissan did nothing to change this perception. Add the fact that seniors keep their cars until they literally fall apart (question is who’s first) and there’s your problem.
Hyundai and KIA however are booming. Their build quality is on par with the Japaneșe competition (ADAC is right) and their design also appeals to young(er) people. They may well be capable of pushing the Japanese brands out of the European market.
Just an example from a small EU-country without a car industry of its own, the Netherlands. Subject: Honda.
-Biggest number in the chart below: 14,834 cars sold, that was in 1986.
-Cars sold in 2017: 1,191
https://www.autoweek.nl/verkoopcijfers/honda/
t takes a very deep commitment to succeed in any market, and Honda clearly is not really committed anymore to Europe. Toyota is, and its sales are currently on the upswing, thanks to its hybrids.
Ask VW how things are going for them in the US. Do you know that VW perpetually loses money in the US? Seriously. Their 3% market share is just too small for a mainstream brand. Subaru outsells VW almost 2:1.
VW just announced another major push to double their market share in the US, which is what it would take to be profitable. Good luck! It’s going to be brutally hard.
I talked to a Framce guy few years ago, French knew Toyota has a good reliability, but its products were relative expensive and did not offer wide range of Diesel engine. Also French protected its industries. But I think Toyota makes small cars like Yaris in France.
MG: I’m long overdue to do an in-depth article about why the Japanese failed to gain more traction in Europe than they did. One of these days. But it’s a bit more complicated than you suggest. Do you really think a Soda Fabia is less “geriatric” than an Auris?
But you’re wrong about Toyota sales; they’re currently enjoying very strong growth in Europe, because of all their hybrids, which are the perfect alternative to diesels. In some countries, Toyota sales are up 30-55% this past year. Especially so in big cities, which are threatening to ban diesels. Toyota is perfectly positioned to benefit from the diesel collapse now under way.
Toyota currently sells hybrids in Europe because many EU governments offer tax benefits to people who “convert to green”. The truth is that hybrids are only selling for as long as these tax benefits apply. Without the artificial boost of tax benefits hybrid sales drop to virtually zero before you can blink.
We have already seen this happening with PHEV’s in certain countries.
Your version of the truth is quite different than mine. And guess which one sounds more truthful?
In 2017 in the overall European Market, Toyota sold over 1 million vehicles. The total increase year over year was an 8% increase. Some country’s gains are obviously higher than others. However Hybrid sales overall increased by 38% to a total of 406,000 units. This indicates that more and more people are considering a Toyota and of those, more and more are choosing a hybrid model relative to a conventional one. For example, the new C-HR saw over 80% of its sales be the hybrid version. Total Hybrid sales account for 41% of the total in all of Europe and if only Western Europe is tallied, it is 52% of the model mix. That’s almost half a million units that VW or Renault or whoever would have loved to have had that they didn’t.
They didn’t separate Plugin hybrids from regular ones, but most Toyota hybrids are not Plugins.
The source for the sales date is from Toyota itself: http://newsroom.toyota.eu/2017-toyota-motor-europe-tme-sales-reach-the-1-million-mark-with-over-40-hybrid-ev-sales/
In regard to incentives, this chart shows the 2017 incentives for all types of Electrics, PlugIns as well as conventional hybrids. The maximum incentive for a conventional hybrid is 1500 euros, which is nice, but hardly enough relative to the purchase price to create a significant shift in buying habits.
Here’s that chart:
http://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/EV_incentives_overview_2017.pdf
When incentives for PlugIns or EV’s (that were higher than for conventional hybrids) were stopped or reduced in some countries, sales of those vehicles diminished afterward. However that doesn’t determine if the incentive had simply pulled demand forward or if purchasers then switched to a different type of electrification (i.e. bought conventional hybrid instead of PlugIn etc). Sometimes is makes fiscal sense to buy the PlugIn if the incentive is greater than the increase in price even though the purchaser would have been happy enough with the conventional hybrid…To assume that the buyer simply bought a diesel or a conventional gasoline vehicle is not necessarily a correct assumption.
Well you can get a black (or white) roof on the Fabia for less geriacity!
I was recently in Berlin, and most of the taxis there are Toyota Prius. I spoke to the drivers and they love the economy and durability.
Same thing over here, the only place you dont see a Prius is on a tow truck.
When I was in Amsterdam recently most airport taxis were Tesla model S. In the city the brand of choice appeared to be Mercedes (diesel).Hardly any Prius to be seen…
I’m in Spain right now and Citroen and Renault are popular taxis, but there lots of brand new Toyota hybrids (not Prius).
The move away from diesel looks good for Toyota and terrible for PSA in particular.
How the Euro volume makers have fallen…especially GM..
I remember when the Euro big six were VW, Renault, Fiat, Opel, Peugeot, and Ford, they had about 60-65% of the Euro market between them. The top spot changed, but they were all within 3-4 % percent market share I think.
Now BMW and MB have become more mainstream.
During Opel’s high tide of the late 1970s, an Opel Senator six-cylinder was a viable alternative to an E-class Benz or BMW.
Even today’s Insignia (Buick Regal) is pretty good.
Falcodores were never enthusiast cars as such – they were taxis and cop cars to the end, they just happened to have convincing high performance versions partly due to RWD and the influence of Aussie touring car racing.
One of the reasons given to me for wanting RWD when I lived in Australia was towing – not something most Americans would do with a sedan nowadays.
I was in Aus in 2010 and the Commodore TV ad still proclaimed it as Australia’s best seller. My perception was that plenty of people wanted them but couldn’t afford one, and those who could afford to buy one new wanted Audis and BMWs. They were bought in big numbers by fleets, which made them affordable and sensible used choices, but clearly that isn’t sustainable.
Let me clarify: they were only relevant as enthusiast cars in their latter years; as family cars they were grossly outclassed by cars like the Corolla and such.
The high performance versions were enthusiast cars! I think it was in the mid-1990s that about 2/3 of Falcons & Commodores had tow bars fitted. When they had tow ratings of 5000 lb it is a completely different proposition to a Dodge Charger rated to tow 1000 lb. As an aside this does make me wonder if there is any logical justification for 1000 lb for the Charger vs 7000 lb for the substantially similar Durango?
You are correct that the large fleet sales that decimated resale (over 50% depreciation in 3 years compared to 30% range for small cars & SUVs), which in itself killed sales of the large cars. Note that the Toyota was not immune to this either, it wasn’t just a Holden/Ford thing.
The other thing nobody likes to know is the Commodore and Falcon are not SPORTY sedans by any means,
Yes there are some performance models but the regular grade versions that make up the vast majority of sales are really quite average for road manners, capable certainly but not what you percieve them to be.
Sales have been declining for many years for a number of reasons fuel economy(and they are quite good) is only one of them, size is mostly irrelevant very few people buy them to seat five and new child restraint laws mean they arent actually big enough, RWD to tow you boat or caravan was a selling point untill towing weight laws were enacted that put big sedans out of that market,
The big Aussie sedan is gone yes its a shame but lots of quite nice cars have gone before and will continue to disappear its the nature of the beast.
Except, towards the end V8s were making up a larger and larger percentage of Commo sales. Not to mention, even fleets seemed to be switching to the sportier XR6 and SV6 — the XT and Evoke seemed to be purchased largely by taxi companies.
Rental fleets went to the XR6 model here several years ago Ford themselves withdrew the base models from rental duty, tthe change was a twofold thing firstly complaint driven and secondly to promote the more expensive model whi8ch although mechanically identical to the poverty pack it has some handling advantages, wider wheels etc it seems to have worked XR6s are as common as Corollas here.
Let me clarify: they were only relevant as enthusiast cars in their latter years; as family cars they were grossly outclassed by cars like the Corolla and such.
They weren’t totally outclassed by the Corolla. They made Dad happy, and Toyota couldn’t achieve that.
“The European top ten over 2017 (market share):
1. Volkswagen AG (23,7%)
2. PSA Group (12%)
3. Renault Group (10,4%)
4. FCA Group (6,9%)
5. Ford (6,7%)
6. BMW Group (6,5%)
7. Daimler AG (6,3%)
8. Toyota Group (4,6%)
9. GM (4,1%)
10. Nissan (3,7%)”
I’m looking at US market share by manufacturer.
1. GM 19.2%
2. Ford 15%
3. Toyota 13.9
4. Chrysler 10.9
5. Honda 9.3%
6. Nissan 8.6%
7. Hyundai 4% (tie)
7. Subaru 4%
8. Kia 2.7%
9. Mercedes Benz 2.4%
10. BMW 2.1%
Notice who’s missing from the list? VW, Mazda… among others.
Also of note- how our market breaks down by segment. Domestic trucks were 37% of the total market. Total trucks comprised 67% of the US car market! (This includes SUV’s and CUV’s). Passenger car sales were 32% of the market, of which 26% were import brands. (This from the WSJ 1/3/2018)
I think your chart is for December 2017, not the whole year.
For the year – VW was at 2% and Audi was at 1.3% for a total of 3.3% If we can group GM brands and Ford brands together we should do the same for VAG. (leaving aside small volumes of Lamborghini, Bentley etc)
Even if we only do look at December VW was at 1.9% and Audi was at 1.4% so still 3.3% total share, ahead of Kia, MB, and BMW
Edit: Porsche accounted for another 0.2% in December and 0.3% for the whole year.
So these articles on the death of the industry typically highlight the surging sales of crossovers. I dare say they have taken a chunk of the old family car sales from the Falcon and Commodore, but I can also see small cars like the Corolla eating into sales, as you say.
My parents traded a VH Commodore (’83?) for a ’97 Astra and my two siblings and I were just fine being shuttled around in that car. Compacts have gotten larger and more comfortable over the years and there’s not as big a fixation on physical size here as there is in the States–older people, for example, often buy smaller cars, we don’t have America’s full-sized pickups and SUVs etc etc
I think you’ll find though, Paul, that if you take away fleet sales – and Toyota is a huge fleet seller here – the Mazda3 is the private sales victor, with the Hyundai i30 following close behind. In fact, the Mazda3 has beat the Corolla a few months in overall sales performance.
We developed a fondness for compact Japanese FWD cars in the 1980s (some were even sold with Aussie badges, e.g. Ford Laser) and that is one constant in this market. The mid-size and full-size segments have declined but you can always count on Corolla et all to sit towards the top of the charts.
One other interesting thing I’ll point out: the Ford Mustang selling like hot cakes. I always thought coupes were flash in the pan here and their sales would cool off quite quickly but the Mustang continues to sell amazingly, being Ford’s second biggest seller here after the Ranger.
I’d been curious where Falcon/Commodore buyers would go, considering the segmentation within their model ranges. I imagined the base models, popular with fleet buyers, would go to any other comparably sized sedan or crossover. The luxury models (e.g. G6E, Calais) probably have some loyal, buy Australian customers but they’d shuffle off to the Germans. The sporty trim levels though, particular the Falcon XR6 Turbo and Commodore SS, they were a wild card.
These buyers typically love V8s and love Aussie cars and are the most passionate of all Falcon/Commo buyers. But, I figured they also appreciated those cars’ sedan practicality. Well, I daresay a lot of them have shifted to the Mustang and may even appreciate the sporty styling even more.
For those buyers, I think the Mondeo and the new ZB Commodore will be DOA. Ford won’t bring the 2.7T V6 here and the Commodore will top out with a 3.6 V6 (the mid-range engine in the VF lineup!). AWD won’t be able to compensate for buyers used to RWD, V8 dynamics. While it doesn’t have a V8, I can see the new Kia Stinger soaking up a lot of sporty Commo/Falcon sales. GM needs to hurry and get a well-priced, RHD Camaro here–HSV will release one next year, but it’ll be priced almost twice as high as the Mustang because it’s an after-factory conversion. I know we’re a small market but a lot of dyed-in-the-wool Holden enthusiasts – and there are a lot of them still – now have the perception Holden is a boring brand with nothing to offer. And if Holden starts being perceived as “just another import brand”, their sales are going to fall more and more. Think about all the buyers who are brand loyal because it’s “Australia’s brand”– they’ve bought Holdens built all over the world, perhaps unknowingly, but they’ve bought them because of that badge.
William, where did they go? down to the Toyota store, my father was GM to his bootstraps bought nothing but Chevrolet Vauxhall and from 66 onwards a new Holden every model change sometimes like with HQs and Commodores several repeats his last ‘Dore was a new VL 3.0 manual which he straight swapped for a 90 Toyota Corona FWD manual later traded for a deceased estate low km 93 Toyota Corona FWD auto, he never even considered another Holden, he isnt the only one.
Mazda 3, i30; same difference, in terms of my point.
Undoubtedly CUVs are growing there too. But the Corolla was #1 in retail sales over 10 years ago. My point is that the Commodore and Falcon have been dinosaurs for a very long time.Govt. incentives is what kept them alive, not genuine consumer demand.
My take on the Commodore/Falcon:
– Falcodores got larger and larger. Australians were happy with the smaller size of the older models, such as the EJ and EH. As Falcodores grew, buyers shifted to EH-sized cars. The Corolla grew from being a very small car to – guess what size (and most Corollas in Oz are hatches)
– Most cars have become much more affordable. Falcodores never did.
– People who buy big cars (e.g. later Falcodores) and wagons now buy 4wds instead.
– Dual cab utes (no Falcodore versions) are tax-deductible family cars for tradesmen and other small businesses
– A buyer can pick a Toyota/Mazda/Honda blindfolded and get a well-built, reliable, durable car. Buying a Falcodore was always an expensive lottery.
– Those who want ‘prestige’ buy something European, and the Euros now market cheaper models.
Good summary. I quite agree on all counts. The market has changed; a lot.
Yea, a very good summary.
I don’t agree with Paul’s assertion that the Corolla “grossly” outclassed the Commodore and Falcon as a family car. The situation was not black and white as per this above summary T
he last Commodores and Falcons were the best ever of their kind. Changing market wants and needs and tastes, more choices etc caused their eventual downfall.
Excellent points, especially about the size growth/bloat. A lot of bulk outside for not an actual lot of difference people could use inside.
EJ Holden (similar to EH) 1962/3
Would an Aussie version of the Malibu or Fusion have survived the culling? Are they sold there and I just don’t know about it?
The previous gen Malibu was actually sold there for a little while. Dropped last year apparently due to low sales. Google “Holden Malibu”. It was literally a badge job of our Malibu.
The Malibu sold 4,986 units in four years. It is possible that leftovers sold in 2017 might have taken them over the 5,000 mark!
The Aussie version of the Fusion is the Mondeo, same car just European sourced. 2017 sales were 2,959.
I thought I’d only imagined it, or it might have been an announcement that never came to pass. They actually sold Malibus here? With numbers like that, no wonder I never saw one!
You may have seen one and not noticed it, they are vaguely similar in styling to the Commodore, and Insignia for that matter although those are even less common!
Pretty invisible really, just like Corollas!
Some interesting figures, though the 2810 (unspecified) for the Corrolla’s length seems to be anomalous – I found 183″ which sounds about right.
Still, there have been roomy FWD cars before and on about the same wheelbase i.e.
106″: Front legroom 46.25″, Front headroom 37.75″, Rear legroom 43″, Rear headroom 35.5″. OK, that’s last figure’s a bit down! Then again, it was only 52.5″ high against the Toyota’s 57″. And only 162.2″ long…
And some were Australian built too.
Looking some of this up I found we’re getting the Corolla name back in the UK again, in place of Auris. Good.
US-market sedans are 183.1in overall, 106.3″ WB. hatchbacks (Corolla iM) are 170.5 OAL, 102.4″ WB. It looks as though the Aussie ones are built around the same body shells, with the hatchback body being the Euro Auris one.
Correct. I have a hard time believing the Corolla rear legroom figure – and I am currently driving a Corolla! The previous model I could entertain it, but the current generation is significantly worse due to the lower seating position.
Sedans are legitimately that large inside; sit in one and you will know instantly. This generation Corrola 4-door has more leg room in back than the Camry, no joke. The first time I sat in the hatch I was stunned because it is way small for the class, sedan comparison be damned. They are cramped. Likely the tightest rear seat of any C-Segment hatch this side of a Focus. Even the Yaris has more space!
Somehow with a four-inch difference in wheelbase the hatch loses around 8 inches of rear legroom. The C-HR hasn’t caught on either, in a red-hot segment, due to overstyling and a cavelike interior.
Toyota got it right with the original Matrix and xB but since then has been dropping the ball in a segment a lot of their practical-minded buyers are looking towards.
The previous model I could entertain it, but the current generation is significantly worse
That makes no sense. The previous model (sedan) had a 4″ shorter wheelbase, which is why the current model has such a roomy rear seat/leg room. Try one. I did!
I had not realised that, and being used to seeing dimensions in millimetres didn’t make the connection. Now it makes a lot more sense.
It also stretches the bounds of what could be a small car, being basically the size of the early widebody Camrys, a bit shorter but a longer wheelbase. Not alone of course and almost unusual in still being under 1.8m width.
Incidentally I found a data point from 2015 that the ratio of Corolla hatch to sedan was 70:30.
I made a typo on the Corolla’s length. It’s 183″ and the chart is fixed now.
I am not sure how bad and how good abo those RWD Australian sedans. But one sold as Chevy Caprice came with Corvette V8 coupled with 6-speed manual, that is very attractive to any car guys. The real sad story is these powerful CARS lost out to a prefect transportation appliance, Corolla. BTW, is Australian Corolla the same as the US market?
I drove briefly a Canadian made Corolla in Toronto in 2016, I was not impressed. My 2003 Honda Accord with V6 is much better despite of its age. If I really want practical and cheap transportation tool, I would go to Yaris and Perius. Then need to consider the cost of replacement battery that is about 2k after 10 years, yet Yaris has not such worry.
While Chrysler may eventually drop its aging RWD sedan based on its marriage with Dialmer. Paul forgot to mention most of Callidac sedans are now RWD, Lexus and Infiniti have RWD sedans. The sedans from BMW and Mercedes are mostly RWD. Set aside the performance considerations, I always suspect these two marques can not build a good FWD cars.
Mercedes and BMW already build smaller FWD cars. Their upscale markets demand RWD, and in larger cars the worse space efficiency isn’t as much of an issue.
The Australian Corolla is the same for the sedan, while the hatch is basically the same as the iM.
Most versions have a 1.8L engine with 134 hp and a choice of 6-sp manual or CVT (although not every trim level will be available with the 6-sp), and there is also a hybrid version available with a different version of the 1.8, but which has 134 hp total.
Excellent write up Paul. To me, the only surprising thing is that it took so long for them to close. For decades Australia was a protected market, shielded from competition by import quotas and tariffs. The removal of quotas, the tariffs cuts in the 80’s and 90s gave consumers more choice. When given a choice, consumers bought Japanese. When I was a kid, my dad only really had a choice of a Holden, Chrysler or Ford as a family car (they were basic and expensive – so expensive that he didn’t get a car with air conditioning until he retired in the 90s). When I had kids in the early 2000s I had a much larger choice and I bought a Toyota. Holden’s were too big, uneconomical and poor quality. Toyotas were better value for money and better quality. I didn’t care that it wasn’t RWD. I was like thousands of car buyers: Ford and Holden stayed still and the larger pool of imports offered better choices. Ford, Holden and the rest only survived the last decade because of government handouts. That’s no basis for operating a business when the public doesn’t want your product.
+1
Exactly.
The comparisons reflect differences in weight and size for FWD and RWD sedans of similar interior dimensions. I don’t understand why GM wasn’t building and selling sedan and maybe hatchback Cruzes, and Ford building and selling sedan and hatchback Foci, which are direct FWD competitors to Corolla, like they both do in the US? The engineering and tooling and testing were already done.
The Cruze and Focus were sold here. Back in the 1980s Holden and Ford (in particular) lead the small car market, but last year the Holden Astra (which has replaced the Cruze) sold 13,535 and the Ford Focus 5,953. The Astra numbers are a bit inflated due to the December month being triple the previous year – they had a big promotion (7yr warranty) but it seems a lot of cars were registered but not sold.
The Cruze was built in Australia in sedan and hatchback forms, but due to the cost of setting up the factory I would be surprised if they made money on it. Well, once you factor in the $179 million in government grants ($149m federal, $30m state) they received to implement it, maybe they did! There is usually talk of a 3:1 investment ratio for government money but it is hard to see in this case.
Ford had looked at building the Focus in Australia but concluded it would cost more than importing the car so it didn’t go ahead. What they should have done was built the Ranger here, due to the immense flooding in Thailand in 2011 they lost a lot of sales. It is also beneficial to have the designers of the vehicle have ready access to the production facility.
The Focus has never really caught on to the degree that the Mazda-based Laser had; for about a decade the Laser had given Ford a lock on the small car market. Then Toyota got their act together with the Corolla, and Mazda seemed to lose their way in the ’90s.
The Focus didn’t improve Ford’s fortunes much. But with the announcement that Ford would be closing local production here, interest in all Ford cars plummeted, as though people feared they’d be left driving an orphan brand. Closure of local production was equated with closure, period. The same thing happened when Mitsubishi closed in the ’00s. And Nissan in the ’90s. And even Leyland in the ’70s. You can spin PR till you’re blue in the face, but…..
I have been driving front wheel drive cars for decades now and I don’t know what all the hullabaloo is about. For one thing, having front drive just means a whole lot more room for passengers inside the car. It means lighter weight and better fuel consumption.
I presently drive what I consider to be a highly powered car, with 240 hp, going through the front wheels. A blast through the Rockies last summer clearly showed there is no handling penalty for front wheel drive.
If there were a demand for rear wheel drive cars, the makers would be building them. Have a look at what happened to GM with it listened to the buff book readers and brought cars from Australia: both times they did it the result was an utter flop. The role of the big family car has been replaced by the truck in America anyway.
Canada is similar to Australia in a lot of ways. I suppose “toughness” mattered in Quebec in 1955, but now 99% of SUV’s never go off pavement now, and the roads are a lot better.
If there were a demand for rear wheel drive cars, the makers would be building them. Have a look at what happened to GM with it listened to the buff book readers and brought cars from Australia: both times they did it the result was an utter flop. The role of the big family car has been replaced by the truck in America anyway.
Let me get this straight, so because Pontiac, purveyors of plastic clad monstrosities in the minds of just about everyone including the buff books in the 00s, rolled out a nondescript but more expensive Trans Am WS6 replacement, that sold in WS6 volumes, and had zero trunk space due to the federalized fuel tank, it’s failure was because RWD is intrinsically stupid? The G8 debuting in the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression, as well as the anynomous and confusing SS receiving zero advertising budget and an almost immediate cancellation announcement due to the ending of Holden manufacturing, I’m sure had nothing to do with contributing to flop status of these cars either.
Convenient how GM is the go-to punching bag around here for corporate ineptitude, yet gets treated as though they did the best a company possibly could when rolling these cars out.
Where did I say that RWD was “intrinsically stupid?”
That’s right, I didn’t.
Where did I use “GM as the go-to punching bag?”
That’s right, I didn’t.
FCA delivered roughly 140,000 300’s/Chargers in 2017. Not Camry volume by any means, but it does show there’s still a market for that configuration. The question is, for how much longer?
In 2016, FCA managed to move 100,696 Darts and 200’s. Toward the end of the year they pulled the plug. The LX cars are clearly near death at this point.
Difference being, they had an alternate use for that plant. Instead of low margin compact and midsize cars, they’ll put together Dodge Ram pickups in that plant. Wonder what the profit margin is at roughly $45-50,000 a copy? (Fords average is $48K, so I imagine theirs won’t be much different).
Legit question, since that isn’t too far away from the price structure of a 300/Charger. Cars where the R&D has been long amortized out.
What FCA does regarding plants with union contracts is beyond my scope. I am not aware where the LX cars are made, but I’d bet money “Coming to a Jeep dealer near you!” soon.
LX cars are built in a Canadian unionized plant, near Toronto.
It would be nice to tell CC ‘ers that Mr Niedemeyer is just stirring the possum, as is sometimes his wont, but it’s all true.
What wouldn’t be apparent from Oregon, Paul, is the tinge of cultural sadness. These cars are part of the memory landscape, literally as embedded as gum trees, for anyone growing up from the ’50’s to the early 2000’s. The true Australian experience is not in the fabled outback, but the sprawling suburbs. Space, light, weather, and the suburban reliance on the car. (Culturally stifling for quite a few, and whites only, but I digress). The Holden represented optimism, self-reliance, pride, heavy industry, even if in truth we moved from living off the sheep’s back through the fifties to living off mining after that. Proof that we could do it all on our own.
Except, we never could. The govt as long ago as WW1 banned the import of car bodies, and later on in the ’20’s, chassis were limited too. From the very beginning, there was only ever an industry through subsidy and protection. I’m no fan of the Reaganomics that have so dominated the world for the past near 40 years, yet it was not ever realistic to have tariffs as high as 57%, where they got to by 1978. (By 2000, it was 15%, now an equally crazy zero). So even the collective cultural memory was only a product of a certain set of circumstances, whose season has gone for good.
Because of the acultured imprint, the political support was always deep. If I could readily find the private, new car buyers favourites of the last perhaps 20 years, the locals would not be the best sellers at all. Fleets, govt, rental, Australian companies bought 80% of the local big cars, (bought them because buy-Australian policies said they had to), at great discount. They used them for 2 years, then dealers sold them to private buyers at about that discount price. A nice n’ cozy internal tariff on top of all the other tariffs. With tariffs keeping imports prices up, why would you buy a (then much smaller) Mazda 3 for more than a near-new Holden, particularly as the favoured automatic? Why squeeze the 3 kids in that thing? In short, for a long time, we bought these things cheaply, and second hand. Once the fleet requirements to buy/lease Australian were gone, folk began to buy more of what they really wanted. Which, because families had shrunk as much as housing density had grown, meant smaller. And better built. Right to the end, the Aus cars were sub-standard in that regard.
Finally, Australia has had an incredible 25 years of economic growth, largely resource-fuelled, and high rates of educated immigration. We are now a very rich country, reflected in gobsmacking house prices ($500,000 US for a 2-bed unit NEAR to Melbourne, anyone?). Why buy a Falcon when you could have a Mercedes for the money? And anyway, where to park the beast?!
It’s not just that it became absurd for a small population in a vast land far from anywhere to be producing unique cars; it’s that, in the coldest of economic terms, it always was.
That sums the whole thing up beautifully man.
Domestic vehicle purchase is always so attractive to budget minded buyers for exactly the reason you point out, and if the buyers forget, local used car dealers can find some expensive, well used Toyotas in horrible mechanic conditions to remind people and help selling big Fords.
Was it “always”absurd justy? or am I not reading your comment correctly.
The car industry in Australia did pretty well for a long time even before 1948 when cars had to have local bodies fitted, this created a lot of employment, and after 1948 the car industry became a huge employer from highly paid executives all the way down to the guys who swept the floor.
I know about the lousy cars a protected market encourages, I remember my Dad was convinced his EH wagon started rusting the day he brought it home, but we lived on a dirt road and the mud in winter was unbelievable, city cars would have lasted longer.
The benefit to the country must be taken into consideration, on a personal level the car industry enabled me, pretty much an uneducated idiot, to own his own home worth more money than I thought possible a few years ago, what other industry can offer so much employment on so many levels. cold economic facts don’t always tell the whole story.
I’m not criticizing your comment, I always enjoy what you have to say, this is just my take on the situation.
Just out of interest my Dads cars were….
Standard 10, gone down in family history as complete crap
FE panel van, must have been ok
EH wagon, early ruster
VH Valiant wagon, Dad took the rusty Holden personally.
Chrysler Valiant Galant, because of the fuel crises, and about 5 years after my Dad started laughing at Japanese cars
Volvo 244 DL, dream realised.
XF Falcon, the last straw for local cars
Toyota Corolla, true automotive bliss, would have been his last car if Mum hadn’t written it off in the driveway !!!
Hyundai Getz, still giving loyal service to a friend of the family
So yes, that list of confirms what everyone is saying, but still, what a waste…
We made round about .0125% of the new cars made in the world last year, and using my finest guessometer, I divine that we never got higher than 1% through history. On a strange desert island, way off to the side of the map, on the bottom of the world. So, yes, certainly not sustainable (I used “absurd” to mirror Paul’s term in the post) because the scale was impossible without permanent subsidy. A bit like the kid who presents a really good model at school, till you work out that his mum did everything but assemble it for him. (And then the bastards give a prize to him, ofcourse, but I digress).
Which doesn’t mean it wasn’t anything other than wedged right into the fabric of the nation as it occurred, along with the fridges, shoes, you name it being fully made locally, and it sure did give employment and pride, and purpose, but in the end, we HAD to start trading with the world, and usually pretty much on their terms, or we would now be Cuba. I feel that abandoning all the industry has left us highly vulnerable – I don’t think we needed to be the worlds only fully open market – but I’m probably wrong. In fact, the huge prosperity of these years as many industries have left practically prove me so, and show I don’t have real handle on where we are, let alone the future.
My dad’s first Holden, a ’55 FJ bought in ’60, had no driver’s floor out of the yard (& when discovered, no comeback in those days). He did own another four Holdens, and in his old age, still does – a Holden Apollo from ’92, so yes, a dead reliable Toyota for him too!
Whenever I read about astronomical housing prices it just leaves me scratching my head. That Love It or List It show on TV shoots in some Canadian areas with housing pricing that just makes my eyes water…$1.2 million Canadian bucks for a a “semi-detached”?!? Makes me glad I live in a boring Flyover State where $250k will get a relatively nice home in a relatively nice subdivision.
Very interesting. As a stalwart owner of rwd full size family sedans, I had always been a bit jealous of Australia’s offerings. Over here in the US, mass buyers traded styling, performance and excitement for bland reliability and boring gas mileage years ago. I think it has something to do with markets maturing and people not caring about their personal appearance as much. Now how do I go about importing an XD Fairmont?
Not sure if someone noted this above, but Toyota has closed it manufacturing plants in Australia too.
That has been covered on CC before. Incidentally, the Corolla was dropped from Australian assembly I think in 1997, since then they have been imported from Japan. At least I don’t think it has switched to Thailand.
Cars need paying customers, not just “fans”. And they can’t succeed with said fans who only buy “cheaply, and second hand.”
Poor Australia.
“Australia has had an incredible 25 years of economic growth…Why buy a Falcon when you could have a Mercedes for the money? ”
I think they will be just fine.
Before I can get onside with this, I’d like to know some details on just how this is measured. Because in many modern cars you can have adequate legroom in front with the front seat slid all the way back or adequate legroom in front with the front seat slid all the way forward, but you cannot have both at the same time.
I don’t have time to look up what you could easily do yourself. But there have been industry standards about interior measurements for quite some time.
Bottom line: I’m 6’4″, and I recently bought a new Corolla sedan for my daughter’s group home. I tried the back seat; it’s surprisingly roomy. I could sit every comfortably there even with the front seat as far back as it was from my having driven it.
Try one yourself, doubting Daniel. 🙂
It looks as if the answer is more or less “Whatever any given automaker wants the method to be for any given car at any given time”. From the link (which experience tells me is reliable, especially given they provide a link to the SAE document in question):
SAE provides two standards for measuring front legroom, one (L34) with the front seat positioned for a 95th-percentile male driver and another (L33) with the front seat set all the way back. [SAE] provides only one standard for measuring rear legroom (L51) which doesn’t explicitly specify the position of the front seat. Still, as far as I can tell, manufacturers have traditionally positioned the front seat the same when taking both measurements, perhaps because of common sense. Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, and (in some cases) Subaru have used the L33 method, while everyone else has used the L34 method. You can’t fairly compare single rows of cars measured using different methods, but combined legroom (calculated by adding the legroom specs for the rows together) can be compared. (emphasis added).
Another generally reliable source reports similarly.
So yeah, it really has to be a try-it-for-yourself test, which is why my one eyebrow is going to remain in its uppermost position with respect to considering the Corolla, the Falcon, and the Commodore effectively equal in legroom just by looking at numbers.
As for whether the Corolla is sufficiently roomy for someone 6’4″ tall: that’s going to depend on where the height is. My husband is that same height, and has a very difficult time fitting in many vehicles because there’s seldom enough legroom. He hasn’t forgiven me for selling my truck a dozen years ago.
The previous generation Corolla had 36.3″ rear legroom which seems about right to me (roughly 2.5-3.5″ less than Falcon/Commodore), and since then they’ve added 4″ to the wheelbase.
Slightly less headroom (which will impact the tall) but otherwise plenty of space for 4. If you want to carry 5, that’s when the full-size car comes into play; however while I haven’t seen any data I would be confident the demand for this has fallen too.
Daniel: the current Corolla has excellent rear seat room for its class. But if you’re wanting a car to make someone your hubby’s size really comfortable in the back seat, then check out the Camry up to the current new generation. The previous three generations of Camry had the best interior space utilization in its class. I’ve ridden in the back seat of my brother’s several times and I was quite impressed.
Meanwhile, our TSX has a horrendous back seat. The shorter wheelbase compared to the US Accord is all at the expense of rear seat leg room. It appears that Americans place much more priority on rear seat room than Europeans, or other countries. We like to ride comfortably…
I am six feet and have long legs. I have driven a few of this generation of Corolla and they are not small cars. They are what a Camry was not long ago, and have even better space utilisation.
They are sold and built all around the world in just gargantuan numbers and this is for a reason: they are a big, comfortable car that is cheap to run, drives well enough for almost everybody and is as reliable as a fence post. Because of the freaking enormous volumes of the thing, Toyota can spend money on putting better stuff in the car.
Cars like the Corolla, Mazda 3 and VW Golf are really good cars.
It seems that the Corolla, Civic, et al. have grown to the point where dimensionally, they approximate the old Detroit compacts, which in turn were about the size of their Aussie contemporaries.
I agree with you that the Corolla is a very good car, but the current-generation Corolla has some fairly serious controls-and-displays design faults, one of which got me into a very tense situation a couple years ago that could easily have resulted in my roadside death if things had been a little different than they were.
I don’t think non Australians or NZers understand that these family cars were expected to tow loads that would be impossible with any Corolla and guessing almost impossible with any large US FWD car unless you were brave or stupid. (perhaps both)
Such as a heavy fibre glass 6m cabin power boat with a very heavy outboard or inboard with a Mercrusier.
Not just to tow to local boat ramp but 100’s of kilometres to some far flung holiday destination.
Otherwise I doubt the Falcon would have survived the 80’s or GMH releasing the Falcon sized 3.8 Commodore VN instead of a RHD version of a US Fwd platform.
However I’ll never understand why Ford didn’t release a V6 diesel version of the Falcon as installed in the Territory instead of the 4 cylinder ecoboost.
Or Mitsubishi Australia installing a Pajero turbo diesel in the Magna/Diamante or lastly the 380 for that matter.
The local journalists would have had a bitch-fest about the NVH of a locally built turbo diesel Mitsi but it would have sold, the station wagon would have been very attractive to fleet buyers.
Especially also in hotter parts of Australia where a diesel vehicle is considered superior to anything petrol.
Its a good theory coming from an American perspective that RWD drive family cars are dead but apparently the British private buyer never got this memo.
They buy far more BMW 3 series than Ford Mondeo and have been since the 1990’s.
If you made the prediction in the early 70s at a local english pub that in 30-40 years that BMW 2002 would outsell the Ford Cortina by a huge margin among private buyers, the punters would think you’ve gone balmy or fried your brain on LSD.
With the demise of the Falcon/Commodore I’m guessing a lot of buyers who want a car instead of a Ranger/Hilux double cab will be visiting MB/BMW dealerships and buying diesel powered 3 and C class cars/wagons with optional towbars.
If I was a Holden NZ dealer I would be nervous as the only volume model that they have that would be profitable is the Colorado.
As for Ford the Mondeo nameplate is more or less dead due to the terrible reputation of the first generation for both reliability and longevity.
If buying a used mid size sedan from the late 90’s, the Mondeo would be the very last on your list.
I think a Corona or 626 would be at the top, French makes were excellent during this era, even a Daewoo Espero would be a better choice.
If Ford NZ had any sense it would drop Mondeo and call it a Fusion.