I didn’t intend to jump in the fray with Daniel Stern’s comment about why cars aren’t sold like frozen peas, meaning the price is clearly marked and there’s no room for negotiation. But when I ran across this vintage ad last night, it brought home the fact that car prices are inherently elastic, due fluctuations in supply and demand. Hence discounting, or as is currently very common, markups above MSRP. These are the realities in such a dynamic market.
I’m sure Daniel knows this, and his ire is more targeted at the actual purchasing process. But the price of frozen peas aren’t exactly frozen either.
They’re going to vary quite considerably depending on whether one is buying a small package at Whole Foods or a big one at Costco. And of course the price of peas fluctuates with the market, just as cars do. It’s just a reflection of the free market we have adopted. Are you annoyed that you missed the sale on frozen peas?
Just a few years ago, trucks typically sold for some $10k less than MSRP. In the current supply-constrained market, they’re now often selling for $10k over MSRP.
The retailing of cars is changing, albeit slowly. And although Tesla claims to not ever give discounts, the list price of their cars fluctuates constantly, depending on demand and other factors. Prices for the Model 3 and Y have been raised seven(!) times since the beginning of the year. Everybody plays the game of supply and demand.
Not surprisingly, a bit of online comparison shopping, just like I would do if I were buying a car, shows that Walmart has the best deal on frozen peas: $1.00 per pound.
Speaking of cheap food, I was at Costco last winter, and 10 lb bags of Idaho potatoes were selling for $1.50. I thought it was a misprint on the sign. But no, they really were 15 cents a pound. I remember paying that much for them back in the 1970s.
Hi,
Excellent article, Paul!
As I recall, in the 1960’s, GM cars seemed to sell for about
$1.25 per pound regardless of the make. A Chevrolet was about 1,800 pounds lighter than a Cadillac.
Gary
I love the old road tests/comparisons that list the price per lb, as if that it a useful indication of value.
Was the best deal a Plymouth wagon? The ones that shared dimensions with pricier MOPARS? Seems that way.
Why does the dealer still refer to themselves as Rambler and not AMC??? Too thrifty to change the ad from 1967?
No – sounds like you weren’t around back then –
We all remember the dealers as East Bay Rambler, Springer Rambler, Arlington Height Rambler, Ranger Rambler – etc.
It took more than a few years for AMC to catch on.
Same thing happened to Datsun.
I don’t think Daniel meant that the price of peas doesn’t vary (between sizes or brands or outlets) but that you don’t go to WalMart or CostCo and have the cashier check with the sales manager to see if you can buy them for a penny over his invoice price. As is done with most cars (this year being the exception, although some cars are definitely still offering discounts).
I responded too to that comment though and my line of thinking was that you absolutely WOULD be haggling over the price of peas if you were in a position to buy them by the truckload, my example was for the Army which was probably flawed conceptually but you know what I mean.
There’s absolutely nothing stopping anyone from just walking in to a dealer and paying the asking price, whatever it may be. Same with a house or airplane or anything. At some point it becomes worthwhile to ask for a discount, if the time to do so is worth it to you.
I’ll turn that around though, and ask all those that profess to hate to haggle and wish everything was just a fixed price – when you sell a used car or a house or anything, is the price you put in your ad YOUR LOWEST POSSIBLE ACCEPTABLE PRICE and you turn away anyone offering even a dollar less? I doubt it. Even if you want $10 for that old lawnmower you listed on Craigslist, if someone offered $9 you’d likely take it. Or the $10,000 2010 Avalon or whatever that you’ll probably let go for $9,500 if someone comes over with the cash in hand. Hence contributing to the issue and perpetuating it.
I don’t know – this Nova seller clearly states “If I wanted less money I’d ask for less money .”
It appears he has no interest in negotiation…
https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/lafayette-1975-nova-door-hatchback/7351396846.html
There’s only one way to really find out.. but just be ready to walk away if your idea of the right price isn’t the same as his!
I did once advertise on CL a used toilet from a house I was renovating (and living in) in Oakland for $35 firm (It was a Toto one-piece). A woman called and asked a million details about it, all of which I was able to answer while reiterating I wanted $35 for it. Then she said she’d like to buy it and would I be there in about an hour as it was 4pm and she was in Menlo Park. (Easily an hour away without traffic, not so at 4pm). As it was she showed up at 6 and complained about the traffic. And then decided she was only willing to give me $30 for it just because, which I was unwilling to accept since I found her overall manner annoying and had been clear about the price. After ten minutes of standing our respective ground I told her thanks for coming out here but now I’m going inside if she didn’t want it for $35 and she ended up driving back home without the toilet. I may be a bit petty but it was hugely satisfying to deny that sale over the $5. I have no memory if I ended up selling it to someone else or took it to the dump but sheesh, who drives hours on a 120 mile round trip to then try to get $5 off a $35 item without finding an undisclosed flaw or something.
From what I understand, California is very strict about reusing old toilets; it’s probably illegal to install anything, used or new, that doesn’t meet the current gallons-per-flush limit (1.28gpf?, not sure what it is now). On a plumbing forum I used to frequent when I did renovation work, there was a heated discussion about the ethics of installing old 3.5 to 5 gpf toilets in renovated bathrooms even where it is legal in areas prone to droughts, for buyers who were angling for a vintage look (hardly anyone makes bathroom fixtures in colors other than white, beige/off-white, or black; even once-common colors like pink and blue are largely unavailable now, amazing given the boom in mid-20th-century fashions over the last decade.
I of course advertised it “For Off-Road Use Only” to cover myself. 🙂
I actually still have one old toilet installed in my current house, it’ll get upgraded soon. It uses a shocking amount of water per flush but is the worst performing toilet BY FAR. It is quiet though, I will give it that. It’s like an old car, seems great at first but take the rose-tinted glasses off, sit down on that way too low seat and notice it uses way too much liquid vs the performance it dishes out…
I have an old pre-regulated toilet as well. Works fine and I don’t care how much water it uses or whether it’s “legal” or not.
That’s a rough one. I do my best to conserve resources, but a brand new can really wrecks the aesthetic of a vintage bathroom. I’ve been a huge fan of the whole midcentury gig since I was a little kid (long before it was popular), and I’m pretty hardcore; going so far as to restore gas and electric kitchen appliances, an intercom, NuTone bathroom light/heater/fart fans, Remcon low voltage lighting controls, lamps, furnishings, and on and on. Most people don’t seem to be willing to make such sacrifices to modern conveniences.
That said, some toilets can be made to flush well with less water. Others, not at all. Had some early 1980’s Briggs toilets that consumed 4.5-5gpf, and they needed every last drop of water to sorta work most of the time. They gurgled and made slurping sounds as the water spun round and round and round for close to 10 seconds before they’d lazily siphon the bowl out. They were also plain and white, so I had no problem tossing those in the bin. Still, it’s a compromise, as you’ll never get a 60 year old crapper to work on 0.8gpf (I had one in an apartment that worked perfectly on that amount), but what can ya do?
Okay. I officially spun off topic and am in the weeds. Sorry.
Not as far off-topic as you may think, since the Briggs that made toilets is the same Briggs that made car bodies for Ford, Chrysler, and Packard (amongst others). The auto body business came first, but Briggs expanded into plumbing fixtures in 1933 when they realized the process used to shape car fenders could also be used to build bathtubs that were much cheaper, lighter, and easier to stack than the cast iron tubs that were then the norm. After owner/founder Walter Briggs died in 1952, most of the car body plants were sold to Chrysler (with British operations going to Ford), but the Briggs family held on to the plumbing fixtures business until the late ’90s.
I too have restored old plumbing fixtures, faucetry, appliances, vacuum-tube intercom/radios, and various old NuTone/Broan “comfort stations”.
If I have an older house, maybe owned previously by someone who repaired when needed but didn’t update to new appliances, I’d most definitely be in the market for an older toilet, especially when the tub and sink are one of those 70s colors like avocado or toasted yellow.
My folks house was one of those. The kitchen appliances were that toasted yellow color, as were the fixtures in both bathrooms. They had it for 36 years and the kitchen still had that 70s short carpet and the living room was shag when it was sold.
I _love_ the parody adverts ! . they look just like the real thing .
As it turns out, Kohler makes vintage looking 91940’s vintage) low flow toilets that do indeed work on the narrower 1920’s grey water pipes ~ I saw an advert on the T.V. for one that had the enthusiastic man of the house dumping in bags of dog food and his wife’s cosmetics and w0ndered ~ I mentioned it to my son who’d just bought a house, he bought one and it’s great, never ever a clog / failure to flush *everything* yet .
So I ordered one in in the 1940’s style and “handicap” version (taller seat) and I love it .
I don’t remember how she did it but my ex wife managed to annoy Robertson Honda in North Hollywood enough to not only forgo the dealer markup on her new Honda Accord but sold it below the MSRP and no add ons .
-Nate
IMHO, to match peas to cars, you have to consider that each of the 1970 AMC vehicles being advertised shows a stock number. I recall a time (I refuse to use the expression, BACK IN THE DAY) when you would go in looking for a specifically-listed unit, only to find out that it was already under contract, but you could get another just like it for an extra $ or $$.
For peas and taters, the ad would have to list specific production lots and codes. “Hurry for a special on last Tuesday’s deli cuts! Or 2021’s best rutabagas!”
Y’all are overthinking this!
Jus’ gimme my $3500 Mark “Donahue” Javelin and I’ll go away, and not even quibble about the misspelling of Mark Donohue. I might even go for the Amby SST coupe because air conditioning!
And boy, does that Toyota Tundra have some dismal fuel economy for the modern era. “Let’s Go Places That Have Gas Stations™ “
Wow! I would have expected the highway fuel economy number to be around 20 mpg. Even most V8 domestics list that number, does the Toyota have cylinder deactivation! That seems to be the magic formula for increased mileage.
If I saw that written on the window sticker at the Toyota dealer here, I’d tell the salesman to GFH and buy elsewhere. Toyota already priced the truck to ensure a healthy dealer profit, as there’s no way it costs them that much to manufacture it. I’d estimate there’s already (to use the figure there) $9995 profit in the thing before the markup.
Folks are gonna be way upside down when the current car bubble bursts.
Sometimes a deal’s a deal and a bargain’s a bargain.
Sometimes not…!
Mmmm, Cream of Fish!
Cheez NIPPLES! Oh that brings back memories!
I think the modern equivalent might be Liartown’s Apple Cabin Foods:
Man, LiartownUSA….Tumblr….
Not only did the Apple Cabin Foods sale flyers make my time working at a grocery store a bit brighter, the other parodies were gold as well.
Thanks for reminding me of this, apparently I’ve some catching up to do.
I don’t know if he’s done anything in a while but I did buy the actual paper book from him. Worth it.
Gelding nuts? Straight from the horse’s mouth?
I’d ask, but I really don’t want to go down that rabbit hole.
@Daniel: Here in the states, the store is known as “Piggly Wiggly”, I wonder why the flip-flop?? 🙂
Maybe spend a few moments carefully studying the ad. Hint: this ad is from the States.
Owned by Protestants – No Baptists! Wow, I hope can we all get along!?!?
Srsly?
This place was in Huntington, Oregon until two years ago:
I looked it up.
Clark’s went out of business decades ago, but their old signage was still up when the neighboring building burned down in 2019.
According to folks in Huntington this refers to the Anti-Asian feelings stirred up during WWII – not Black Americans. It was common back then to have Asian cooks and kitchen help and the restaurant wanted to advertise that.
I recall hotels, motels and other businesses competing against Indian American hotels and motels to advertise that they were “American Owned” – back in the early 1980s. We wouldn’t approve these locations in our tour books because of it.
I wrote the AAA Tour Books rating restaurants, motels, hotels and tourist attractions throughout the US. I have never seen anything like that anywhere. I could not have be permitted to list any property and would have confronted the owners directly. Most businesses wanted to be listed in our books and someone with this kind of message couldn’t be listed.
After the Civil Rights were passed, all AAA Tour guide inspectors had to delist any business that racially discriminated, regardless of their success, popularity or lack of accommodations elsewhere. It wasn’t easy for the guys to tell business owners that they lost AAA’s endorsements, but we did it because it was the right thing to do. That was over 60 years ago.
So – no way. This is a very strange sign and not at all common. I had problems believing that it was not photoshopped and had to do a little research.
All correct – I should have noted that the building and signage were there until two years ago but the actual business closed long ago. It is real though – here’s the faded sign on the outer wall:
I got a hankerin’ fer a tube o’ pomatoes!
Mmm, tube-y.
Personally, I’ve got my eye on the Activated Boron. Such a deal!
Bonus points for anyone who can identify the album that included this newspaper insert (I’m a proud owner of one!)
I’m gonna guess…
something by Frank Zappa
Nope, it’s The Genuine Imitation Life Gazette by the 4 Seasons, from 1969. The music is as weird as the packaging; the band was trying hard update their image and be all socially-conscious and with the times.
What!!???
You’re not accepting all those Green Stamps that I’ve been hording for a zillion years!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’ll take one AMX and one Ambassador wagon, please.
Some shop price and some don’t. The whole idea of coupons and rebates was designed to take advantage of the non-price shoppers while at the same time cutting deals to the price shoppers who will take the time to jump through the hoops to get the lower price. Car pricing is not unlike this.
Also, some buy their frozen peas at Wal-Mart, some at a traditional supermarket and some at fancy store. (surely there are organic frozen peas sold somewhere?) Choosing where to buy is price-shopping too.
Cars just deal with bigger numbers so it becomes more worthwhile to shop.
Good point, those coupons and other discounts are a lot like car pricing. Any day of the week you can buy them at the regular price but if you wait around they may have deals and the smart shoppers know that and when the deal is available they may stock up.
The big difference is in the rest of the transaction. When you go to buy that bag of frozen peas the cashier doesn’t try and sell you the tru-coat and extended warranty or try to get a yield spread premium on the financing.
And the cashier doesn’t slap on a 20% ‘dealer adjustment’ just because peas are hot sellers, when you know darn well what peas ought to cost.
MSRP’s on cars are just that: a recommended price but one that has no binding value. Actual transaction prices reflect supply and demand. And I can absolutely assure you that if there was a pea shortage, the prices would jump to reflect that. It has nothing to do with the cashier.
When potatoes are dirt cheap there is usually a reason. Potatoes store well so if they are real cheap, their shelf life is probably not long. Not a good time to stock up the root cellar. Buy em cheap, but eat em up. Serve them with that bag of peas. Mmm good!
Nice presentation! First of all, the ad from “Wiggly-Piggly” looks like a Mad Magazine spoof on Piggly-Wiggly, the first supermarkets in the U.S. (circa 1919). And now, for a piece of truth in advertising: In 1957 or 1958 a Ford dealer near New Haven, CT advertised a particular sedan, “Come in and it’s yours for $2,500 bananas.” I am slightly paraphrasing the ad. A man went to a wholesale grocer and placed an order for 2,500 bananas. That being secured, he went to a TV news station in the area and asked for a reporter to go with him and a video crew from the TV station to the dealership. As the man was being videoed, he asked for the advertised car and verified what the ad said that he could have it for 2,500 bananas. Once confirmed, the TV crew filmed a truck loaded with the bananas rolling up to the dealership; whereupon the customer made his purchase. The dealership had no choice but to honor the deal or face a lawsuit. This ended the era of euphemisms in auto advertising.
Ha! Good one.
I’ve been watching and reading car ads lately, knowing there’s a shortage. It’s amazing to me that they’re still pushing lease deals on cars and pickups etc.
Maybe, but Pepsi (I think) was in danger of having to award a Harrier jet 25 years ago or so…
In the ad above: Owned by Protestants – No Baptists
WTH? Theology aside, what on Earth would the retailer gain from this verbiage?
Seems like a reasonably effective way to keep them baptists away.
Um.
Mmmmaybe take another look at the rest of the text in the, y’know, the whole ad.
April fools!
There’s a sucker born every minute…
Well, you don’t want the Baptists to have access to chicken groin, do you?
If you live in the South, where you will always find ‘The Pig”, you will understand the reference.
There were Piggly Wigglys in Chicago NW suburbs up ’till 30 or so years ago.
I have never seen a Piggly Wiggly in those parts – ever. You sure?
I’ve always suspected that the major factors in cars not being sold at a fixed price are (1) that the majority of car purchases are two -way buy-sell transactions and (2) the provision of credit or offer of cash.
Has anyone ever bought a car at the list price whilst selling one to the dealer at the price you genuinely expected and had reason to predict to get?
I once had a fellow diddy bop into the Olds sealer I worked at in L.A. and DEMAND the lowest price on a new Tornaaahda……..
It was obvious from his demeanor that he would also never be satisfied with the car, no matter the price.
I gave him a pleasant smile and politely told him that if he walked back into the Service Dept. he could get a new, boxed Toronado for $1.98. Aaah….tho$e were the days. Strangely he STALKED out in a huff; my Sales Manager informed me that he completely approved of my polite response. 🙂
Now even a small model goes for more per # than prime rib, let alone pea$!! DFO
Figuring that the Javelin is already gone. I’d take that Ambassador SST coupe, even with the automatic.
Always liked the Dick Teague style on that Ambassador, The Packard influence on the front is noticeable and appreciated. That RHD Post Office version is attractive too. Except for the paint job. Reminds me of “The Machine” the came later.
Tundra’s aren’t the only 4×4 gas hogs, the whole segment is bad, but this is the worst
Yeah but that’s the TRX, show me another full-size truck with a supercharged V8 and 702hp that’ll do 0-60 in 4.3 seconds that does any better. It’s actually surprising it does that WELL in terms in fuel economy. I got 10.9mpg when I had one for a week over almost 400 miles. It calls for Premium as well. Not really representative of trucks as a whole.
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/new-car-review/curbside-review-2021-ram-1500-trx-so-its-kind-of-like-a-raptor-but-with-a-powerful-engine-right/
Here’s the Tundra TRDPro I reviewed as well. I averaged 14.2, no doubt the TRD format reduces economy due to the lift, tires, and aero not being deemed important. The Toyota is probably the worst in the segment currently for fuel economy ratings, at least as per the EPA.
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/new-car-review/curbside-review-2021-toyota-tundra-trd-pro-doublecab-still-in-the-hunt/
I’d bet the new Tundra does much better in that regard though, especially if it comes in a partially Hybrid format as rumored.
I must have missed Daniel’s comment – I always seem to miss controversial stuff that pops up overnight local time – where was it, Paul?
At the Mazda MPV post:
The car shopping experience this time around turned out to be maybe my worst ever, but not really the fault of the dealer. I just needed a new minivan, I wasn’t really working hard at the deal. I’m sure I ultimately paid too much, but I’ve managed to block the details. I suppose I’m like most consumers in that if I feel like I overpaid, I’m just never going to be happy with the product.
Oh, now you’ve done it…gone and triggered my rant № 313. Why on –Ferenginar– Earth do we put up with this when buying cars, as if it’s normal? Imagine if we considered it normal to have to horse around like this with the price of frozen peas or cans of paint or any other mass-produced product. Comparison shopping and asking for a deal aren’t what I’m talking about; I mean one doesn’t go in a Safeway expecting to have to spend hours playing dumb games like “How much is this bag of frozen peas?” “Well, you’re in luck! My boss has authorised me to make killer deals this weekend! Let’s go in my office and see if we can come to terms to get you into this terrific bag of frozen peas today!”, etc.
Yes, it’s been going on almost forever in the motor trade…yes, there have been at least pretended attempts at no-haggle pricing…no, none of that addresses what I’m banging on about here.
Thanks! Daniel at his best. 🙂
On the one hand, good point. But I’d be looking at the price of home furnishings and whitegoods for a better analogy. There always seems to be funny business behind the scenes, and amazing discounts if you’re offering to pay cash. Happened to me with expensive car repairs too once, discount for cash. Make an offer on a house for sale and watch the price come down – it’s like medieval bartering. The more expensive an item is, the more negotiable the price seems to be. Wonder if you can haggle over the price of a Rolls-Royce?
What I can’t understand is what seems to be an unprincipled cash grab by US dealers with those huge ‘market adjustments’, or whatever their euphemism is. There’s a difference between reasonable profit to make a living and blatant profiteering. Seems unethical to me, but I guess they’d say it was un-American to make laws to curb such things.
Those same dealers were losing money just a few years ago. Was that unethical?
It’s a free market.
I missed his comment earlier. I don’t like to haggle either and won’t. Instead I do thorough research on the car, what I want, and the prices in my region. May take me several months. When I set foot on the dealers lot and see the car that fits what I am looking for I already have a price in mind. I state it and leave it up to the dealer as to what he is going to do as I make it clear I have the approval, will walk and visit another dealer between Oakland and Sacramento. If the dealer comes back within a couple of hundred dollars fine but outside that I say no thanks. You got the money, the dealer wants the money, there are lots of cars, and there are lots of dealers so who is in charge here?
I have some friends who thrive on the haggling (whether new or used), and others totally allergic to it; I guess I’m in the middle somewhere.
I wonder what new-car purchasing was like before the late-1950s (Monroney) “window sticker”?
More recently, the “additional dealer markup” thing seems to be the purest crass “market” selling out there, but was there anything like that before (roughly) the 1980s-90s?
One more “I wonder”—can some CC-ers who have purchased cars in both the US and elswhere describe differences in how it all works?
Immediately after World War II, brand-new cars were in short supply, as companies dealt with labor strife (there was a 113-day UAW strike against GM in 1945-46) and chronic shortages of critical materials – particularly steel – as they struggled to restart production.
Meanwhile, cars on the road were at least four years old, with most being much older. Dealers put customers on waiting lists, and required them to pay full price AND purchase cars loaded with dealer-installed accessories. If someone refused those terms, the dealer simply went to the next person on the list.
A car is sold to a franchised dealer, so the factory has the upper hand. Dealer is stuck with the retail customer relationship. My family used to farm, small scale, here in California. Selling apples to Safeway was not a pleasant negotiation, from our (lack of) bargaining position. Cars can sit unsold for months without spoilage, peas, not so much, until frozen. Grandpa eventually did two things. Our own cold storage to keep them until prices when way up in the non-harvest months and sell retail from our own stand.
Whenever there hasn’t been any haggling over price, it hasn’t been advantageous to customers.
The first example is the car shortage immediately after World War II. Manufacturers were struggling to start production in the midst of labor strife and material shortages, while customers who had nursed clunkers through the war years were desperate for a new car. Dealers demanded top dollar for whatever cars they could get, and often loaded their cars with dealer-installed accessories. Customers were told to take it or leave it.
The second example was in the early 1980s, when the federal government negotiated import limits with Japan. Customers eager to buy a new Japanese car were faced with paying full sticker, along with $200 for floor mats, $250 for mud flaps and $300 for “paint protection” (basically, a wax and detail job).
Haggling over discounts may be annoying, but the alternative appears to be worse, if history is any guide.