Over the years here at CC, there’s few subjects that have created more controversy and misunderstanding than Chevy’s (mostly) unloved Powerglide. Even my post on the Powerglide was titled “A GM Greatest Hit or Deadly Sin?“. Yes, two (nominal) gears would seem to have been a significant disadvantage against Chrysler’s and Ford’s 3-speed automatics by the late ’50s and certainly by the mid-late ’60s.
Despite that seeming disadvantage, Chevrolet kept outselling Ford and Chrysler with untold millions of PG-equipped cars right through the sixties. How much at a disadvantage was it, in actuality? The story most often told is that Chevrolet’s better-breathing V8s masked its deficiencies through their wide torque band and higher-revving nature. But what about the six cylinder cars? In a heavy, full-sized car?
Car Life tested a 3900 lb (test weight) 1966 Bel Air sedan, saddled with a California emissions air pump as well as a power steering pump. They also tested a ’66 Ford Custom six, which had the three-speed Cruiseomatic. The results were…surprising.
The 250 cubic inch (4.2L) six was new in 1966, with a few changes from the previous 230 inch version. The seven bearing crankshaft now had 12 counterweights and a longer stroke. It was rated at 155 gross hp at 4200 rpm, up from 140 hp on the outgoing 230. Its net rating was 125 hp (from GM’s Vehicle Information Kits) . Somewhat curiously, there had also been a 155 hp (@4400rpm) version of the 230 available optionally on the 1964 Chevy II and Chevelle, apparently thanks to a spunkier camshaft.
The Bel Air had a 3.08:1 rear axle ratio, and the Powerglide had a 1.82:1 first gear and of course a 1:1 top gear. The 2.10:1 (max) ratio of its torque converter yielded an effective 3.82:1 ratio at stall speed. The Bel Air had a curb weight of 3560 lbs and a tested weight of 3900 lbs.
Car Life points out that the Bel Air six is “rather lightly powered for its size; it is undergeared in both axle choice (3.08:1) and automatic transmission usage; it suffers from add-on, power-sapping equipment…it isn’t nearly as economical as it ought to be (15-17 mpg).”
So why would buyers choose to buy it? It was very roomy with seating for six, it had a large trunk, a smooth ride, low depreciation and of course a low price. “If underpowered for today’s freeway driving demands, the Chevrolet six at least makes the most of its abilities with reasonably good ride, handling and braking”.
One very real advantage all six cylinder cars had compared to the V8 versions was better weight distribution, thanks to the lighter engine weights of the sixes. Only 51.3% of its weight was on the front wheels, very close to the 50/50 ideal, and better than any V8 equipped sedan or coupe. In the case of the Chevy, this resulted in more balanced handling, with less understeer (‘Plowing”) at the front end and the rear end less prone to breaking loose. (This was not the case in the Ford six, which was deemed to handle worse than the V8 version).
That also contributed to less pitching, despite the Chevy’s softly-damped suspension. And of course braking was better too, due to less overall weight and less on the overworked front brakes. The fact that this car did not have power assisted braking made it easier to modulate the brakes in strong braking.
Fit and finish was described as “mediocre”. What else is new? Well, the all-new redesign that started in 1965 resulted in an improved seating position and a better relationship to the steering wheel. Visibility was good. Instrumentation was “sparse”, but the giant speedometer was easy to read. Ventilation and heating were “excellent”.
So let’s get to the key question: just how slow was it?
0-60 in 15.5 seconds, the 1/4 mile in 20.5 seconds @69 mph, and the 30-70 passing test in 16.2 seconds.
That’s obviously very slow from today’s vantage point. But what about in its time, in the mid-sixties? And in comparison to the very similarly-equipped Ford six, with the 3-speed automatic?
To answer the second question, here’s the stats from their test of the Ford six. Its 240 cubic inch six was rated at 150 hp gross, 5 less than the Chevy six. For what it’s worth, that same engine in my ’66 F100 was rated at 129 net hp; it’s possible that there might have been a very minor difference in the as-installed (net) hp for the passenger cars, but we can safely assume that its net rating was at least 125 hp, which is what the Chevy 250 had. Torque ratings were 235 ft.lbs for the Chevy, 234 ft.lbs for the Ford. So essentially an equal match, power-wise.
The Ford weighed 80 lbs more; that’s insignificant. It had a 3.00:1 axle ratio, also insignificantly different form the Chevy’s 3.08:1. The Ford’s automatic had a 2.46:1 first gear and a 1.46:1 second gear. The 2.10:1 (max) ratio of its torque converter yielded an effective 5.16:1 ratio at stall speed, significantly lower than the Powerglide’s 3.82:1 at stall speed. That should have made it quicker off the line.
But despite all that, the Ford was…slower, taking 16.3 seconds for the 0-60 (Chevy: 15.5), and 20.7 seconds @66 mph for the 1/4 mile (Chevy: 20.5 @69 mph). The 30-70 passing test took a full 19 seconds compared to the Chevy’s 16.2 seconds.
The 0-60 and 1/4 mile are not exactly big differences, and various factors might explain them, although the Chevy’s 2-speed PG would clearly be seen as a handicap. But the 30-70 mph passing test was a big surprise, where the intermediate gear of the Cruise-O-Matic would be seen to be a significant advantage.
How to explain that? Car Life did say that the Cruise-O-Matic shifted “loosely, in the interest of a softer shift, but that slowed down the actual shift times”. And since the Ford could not make it to 70 in 2nd gear, it had to shift twice in the 30-70 mph test, unlike the single shift for the Powerglide.
One other factor that’s often overlooked is that the Powerglide was exceptionally efficient (low hydraulic losses), and that Ford automatics were known to be rather the opposite 9particularly the C60, although this transmission was presumably the C4.
But the results speak for themselves, and Car Life was known to have very high technical standards for their tests, and have much more consistent and real-world results than say Car and Driver. Anyway, it’s not like it takes very special driving skills to run a six cylinder automatic car through an acceleration test.
To put these cars’ performance in perspective, I’ve gone back through a number of other Car Life tests and extracted the numbers for other six cylinder American cars, a few low-power V8s, and a few import cars. There’s a few noteworthy results to ponder.
(Note: the ’65 Impala 283 is from a Road Test Magazine. Car Life only started the 30-70 mph passing test in 1966, which explains why it’s missing on most of these )
What jumps out? The 1964 Ford Custom with the 289 V8 and automatic. It was essentially no faster than the ’66 Bel Air six! Yes, the ’64 Ford was a bit porky, at a tested weight of 4135 lbs, but its performance numbers compared to either the ’65 Impala 283/PG or the rest of these cars really lags. The other noteworthy laggard is the 1964 Buick Special V6, but its three-speed manual transmission linkage was atrocious, resulting in slow shifts. But then that was a near-universal problem with all of the tree-speed manuals with column shift; since these were all about low-price, the American manufacturers spent as little on the linkages as possible. European cars with column-shifter manuals did not have these issues, and were often excellent.
The other thing that jumps out is that with the exception of the quick ’63 Biscayne V8 and VW Beetle, all of the 1/4 mile times were within the range of 19.3 to 20.7 seconds.
So now you know just how slow a ’66 Chevy six with Powerglide is: slow, but not quite as slow as it’s all-too commonly made out to be. And faster than its closest competitor.
Related CC reading:
Powerglide: A GM’s Greatest Hit Or Deadly Sin?
My guess is that the 155 hp 230 was added because AMC offered a 155 hp 2V version of its 232 cubic inch six, which was optional on the Rambler American and Classic (and became the base engine on the Marlin). Not that AMC was much of a threat to Chevrolet, but a buyer looking at a Chevy II or six-cylinder Chevelle might conceivably compare an American or Classic, and it was an easy enough thing for Chevrolet to add.
I suspect you’re right about the extra shift costing the Ford in 0-60 times, since the 0-30 times are identical. Also, once the Cruise-o-Matic was in second, there was a period in the 40–50 mph range where it had about 20% taller gearing than the Powerglide, which it looks like the Ford six could ill afford — the acceleration curve drops off more quickly than the Chevrolet in that range.
AMC’s 232 2-barrel was the standard Ambassador engine too! And both the Classic and Ambassador were lighter weight than a Biscayne. The Ambassador was positioned as a somewhat more luxurious (though not really a full-size) car than the Biscayne or Belair or Impala.
With 90hp on tap in a small car, the Toyota Corona probably suffered much more from its’ 2-speed auto (a PG clone, fwiu, right down to its’ “Toyoglide” branding) than the big Chevys. With a 4-on-the-floor it must’ve been properly quick and almost sporty in a way that failure to market would become a longtime Toyota blind spot.
Yes, the Corona was quite lively for the times with a manual transmission. About 16.7 0-60 for the three speed and about 15 seconds for the 4-speed.
The key component to the two speed transmission was the torque converter. It had a triple engagement setup vs. a single engagement ( OD TCC lockup ) on regular transmissions. Therefore, it acted more like a four speed transmission with TCC lockup. Then factor in those few years when the variable pitch stator was used, and you got one nice setup.
This is also the reason why, when pared to a track ready big block, racers would use the TH400 torque converter. Because at that point, the track car is basically setup like a go cart. I had a coworker once, that used to win races at the track, and his secret was using the two speed. They are great transmissions If you know how they are utilitized.
In this case, both cars had torque converter automatics, both with the same nominal stall ratio. Neither Ford nor Chevrolet used a variable-pitch stator during this period. (Chevrolet had used one with Turboglide, of necessity, but never in Powerglide.)
Having ridden in one many times during 1966 and 1967, yes, it was a slug! I worked for Texaco at the time. One of the field representatives had the two-door sedan model equipped as you specified.
What stands out? Of the automatic equipped cars, the Rambler Classic out drags them all in the 1/4 mile. Even the V8s. A Rambler 6 w/a Borg-Warner automatic! Who’d have thunk it?
Yes, that new 232 six did very well. And just as surprising (or not) the old 196 six acquitted itself reasonably well too, being a bit quicker than the big Ford and Chevy.
Lighter car. Not coincidentally, it looks to be dead even with the also-lighter Dodge Dart.
Im not sure we got the six, I certainly didnt see any when these cars were younger and more popular but even the 283 we had in good numbers couldnt catch its showroom buddy 3.3 Vauxhall Velox also PG equipped but only 140hp and half the weight,
This is one of my favorite kinds of posts on this site, where we lift the lid on the “received wisdom” of generations of automotive lore to uncover how much of it is true.
I’m not surprised at the outcome. GM was still at (or at least near) its engineering peak in 1966, and the full-size car market was incredibly competitive. Chevrolet just wasn’t going to put out something that was highly deficient when compared to Ford, even if it looked like it was on paper.
Buyers of straight-six full-size cars back then did not shop the specs or the option sheet too much. The car was either “good enough”, acceleration wise, or it was not. This car certainly appears to be “good enough” for the day. A two-speed automatic versus a three-speed was also likely beyond the buyer’s willingness to care. Probably more important was that the transmission had been proven to be durable over time, and that would count for more. The ample low-end torque curve, common to straight sixes, likely also gave a bit of a lively feel on the test drive, beyond the seconds and tenths of what a stopwatch might disclose.
I wonder how a 1965 Plymouth Belvedere, equipped with either the 225 Slant six engine or the 318 V8 engine and the “Industry Reference Standard” 3 speed Torqueflite automatic transmission would had ranked in the above comparison?
Given that the significantly lighter ’64 Dart with the 225/TF did the 0-60 in 14.4 seconds, it’s pretty safe to say that the heavier C body would take about the same as the Chevy (sorry to burst your bubble there). I was hoping Car Life did a test of one too, but no such luck.
My best friend’s family had a ’65 Fury sedan with the 225/TF, and I can assure you it was not exactly perky. They lived on a steep hill, and I have very vivid memories of it straining up that hill with a bunch of us kids on board.
A unit-body Belvedere (B-body, not C) would likely be lighter than the perimeter-frame Chevy. (Actual scale weight of a 62 Savoy-power steering, iron-head 360, 727 automatic, 15×8 steel wheels-was just short of 3300lbs.)
Indeed it was. I belatedly remembered I had a 1965 Motor Trend test of a Plymouth Belvedere Six and Sport Fury. The Belvedere, which had TorqueFlite, a heater, and almost nothing else (no power steering or brakes, apparently no radio either), weighed 3,160 lb at the curb. With a 2.93 axle (25 mph/1,000 rpm), it did 0-30 in 4.6 seconds, 0-60 in 14.8 seconds, and the quarter in 20.1 @ 69 mph. They got an observed 92 mph on top and said it would probably have gone a bit higher, though probably not by much.
That compares with a six-cylinder (non-OHC) Tempest Custom six tested earlier the same year, which needed 16 seconds to 60 mph and 22.5 seconds for the quarter mile. With perimeter frame and power steering, it was 120 lb heavier than the Belvedere and had a 2.56 axle with the two-speed Super Turbine automatic. It was quicker in the 50–70 passing test, probably because the tall axle ratio let it hold low until 71 mph, whereas the TorqueFlite had the 2–3 shift at 68 mph.
This article illustrates how spoiled we’ve gotten about engine power. A modern car with a 10-second 0-60 is derided as a slug nowadays.
One question regarding the relative weights of the six & V-8 versions of the Chevy: A decade earlier, the V-8 version of the Tri-Fives was listed as weighing LESS than the six, by 30 pounds or so. How is it that the same small-block in 1966 was 170 pounds MORE than the six?
The older Chevy 235 six weighed about 630 lbs; a small block V8 around 575 lbs, so there might have been about a 50 lbs difference, but not 150 lbs.
The newer six weighed around 440 lbs.
When the new six was introduced for 1963, Car Life estimated that it was about 100 lb lighter than the Stovebolt Six, and they noted in their intro story on the Chevelle/Malibu in 1964 that the 230 cubic inch version was 465 lb.
The challenge of comparing engine weights is always figuring out what state of dress they’re talking about, since including accessories, flywheel, and/or manual clutch makes a significant difference.
An enjoyable read and commentary, Paul—and surprising in several ways.
I remember my ’67 Bel Air with 283/PG as not nearly so slow as my ’70s-80s “malaise” cars, and it looks pretty good here. Funny, but I never thought about the only-two-gears angle…but it still does surprise me that Chevy kept it in the lineup as long as it did.
Of Car Life’s two test cars, I see the Ford got slightly better mileage, but I’d sure have expected better.
Odd coincidence: Popular Mechanics tells us that the aluminum PG case saved 80 pounds, and that’s the difference in weight between the two vehicles. I never thought about “cost savings” as another upside for the aluminum, however:
Owning a ’59 Chevrolet Biscayne with a six/Powerglide I can tell you that:
–This powerteam is very smooth and quiet both at idle and at cruising speed. I’m talking “muffled vacuum cleaner smooth”. At 20-45 MPH, you hardly notice there’s an engine running at all. There is one upshift, and no discernible downshift when slowing to a stop.
–Power is adequate and then some. For normal driving, I don’t notice any lack of power–I just drive. I go up fairly steep hills in town swiftly without strain. At middle speeds on level ground, if you punch it, the car jumps forward briskly. At 60-65 on the interstate it feels OK, unlike the ’58 Ford six/Fordomatic which at 60 is noisier and feels like the RPMs are too high.
–The article’s right: the engine is a mechanic’s delight!
–In 1959, the 235 six and the 283 V-8 weigh the same, so handling/balance would be identical.
–1959 Chevy sixes have firmer springs than the V-8s, so the ride feels level and steady, and you can go around corners with very little lean.
If you went out driving with me you might not realize we were driving a six not a V-8 unless I told you. The car’s biggest fault is a lack of power steering. Steering is too heavy at parking speeds, and 6 turns lock-to-lock is excessive. The ease of power steering with a lower steering ratio would make a bigger difference than 2 extra cylinders.
If I was my grandfather, I’d have chosen the Chevy over the Ford, but would have ended up with a Rambler Classic over the Chevy. Reason – I needed to hit merging speeds on the Chicago expressways without frustration and considering the cost, the availability, and the build quality, the Rambler Classic was better than the Bel Air. That is what my grandfather drove, and my dad and neighbors drove as used cars.
Now – if I lived in Kansas wheat farm country, I definately would have chosen the Chevy. There is no traffic out there, there is always a Chevy dealership within 50 miles, and any farmer would be familiar with the Chevy six. That is what my aunts and uncles drove, as well as many farmers in both Stafford and Harper counties.
There is an impact on where I live as to how I would choose.
It’s clear why the Chevy Be Air was popular, a low price for a spacious car that looked nice, and could handle the job. I was impressed by the 95 mph. top speed. Even if it took over a 1/4 mile to achieve it. The new seven main six was not like the old babbit pounder that couldn’t handle speeds over 55 mph. for long periods. I imagine that it could easily cruise at 60-65, and there were a lot of places that didn’t even have freeways yet in 1965. Overall fuel economy wasn’t that impressive, but it ran on cheaper regular gas. The four cylinder imports may have gotten better mileage, but they were all a lot smaller and slower, Especially the VW. A real skinflint wouldn’t have popped for the Powerglide and stuck with the manual three speed, but I bet that resale was much better with the auto box.
I forgot to add that I used to drive a ’70 (and ’71) Chevy taxi cab in San Diego with the same six/PG, and I can verify that top speed of 95 (without a far on board). And it had about a half-million miles or more under its belt, although the engine had been rebuilt.
Interesting that in the chart comparing 0-60 times, the 283 with 3 spd manual was the quickest of the list….10 seconds is not all that shabby for the times.
My Dad had a ’65 Impala 4 door hardtop with the 283 and 3 spd manual combination and while it was no rocket, it always seemed to hold its own in traffic and on the highway….I was only a little tyke in those days but I can still remember the sound of those gears when he shifted through them.
My Dad said that the 283 would get around 20 mpg on the highway with that manual transmission.
Coolest line in the article for me was: “The combination of a 3.08:1 axle-ratio and undergeared automatic transmission makes Chevrolet Sixes barely competitive with Volkswagens in acceleration.”
I’ve mentioned in the comments before that my dad bought my mom a 1972 Buick Sportwagon to replace her 1968 Volkswagen Squareback, and mom said that the Buick was actually the gutless one and slower than the Volkswagon, at least up the steep hill leaving our neighborhood. On the other hand, the VW was very slow up long highway grades, losing speed down to about 40 mph, if I remember the story.
The Buick was a six and an automatic, which by my reading means it was the Chevy 250 six, but it looks like it might have been a Turbo Hydramatic according to wikipedia. Is this right, or did GM pair PowerGlide with the Chevy Sixes in the Buicks?
We lived in California, so it was probably an emissions car, and given the fairly high-spec of the car (other than the engine), it may have had AC, Power Steering, etc. Wikipedia lists curb weight as 3,996, so pretty heavy.
So anyway, cool article to confirm what I’ve heard from the real world!
V8s were the base engines in the Sportwagon ever since 1965; ’64 was the last year with the V6 as base engine. Also, by that time, Buick was using the THM-350 in these. So this wagon should not have been a slouch.
As to that line you quoted, it’s a bit misleading as the Chevy six was of course quite substantially quicker than the VW.
From Wikipedia: From 1970 to 1971, the Sport Wagon became a deluxe trim version of the similar, less expensive Buick Skylark wagon … The engine choices remained the standard 250 cu in (4.1 L) Chevrolet Straight-six engine, or the 350 cu in (5.7 L) Buick V8 shared with the Skylark line.[1].
The [1] footnote reads: Gunnell, John, ed. (1995). The Standard Catalog of American Cars 1946–1975. Kraus Publications. pp. 50–92. ISBN 0-87341-204-4.
Never assume Wikipedia to be correct. Here’s the snippet from the ’70 Buick brochure. And I checked all the other Buick brochures from ’64-up. Starting in ’65, all the Sportwagons came standard with the V8.
This is from the ’70 brochure:
What about ’71? My dad was a serious car guy and specifically told me that it was a deal because it was a high spec car but with the six, rather than the 8. I was way to young to have ever known myself, but given mom’s experience and dad’s explanation, I continue to believe more may have been going on here than is shown in the brochure. Does the footnote from the Standard Catalog of American Cars lead to any further information?
From the ’71 brochure. 350 V8 standard.
In the future if you want the factory specs and such, oldcarbrochures is the go-to site:
http://oldcarbrochures.com/
My Standard Encyclopedia of American Cars says the 250 six was std. on the Skylark, but the 350 V8 in the wagons.
Buick was a premium brand, and did not want to saddle wagon buyers with an under-powered wagon.
Note the lack of sky lights and the sedan length wheelbase, as well as the Sport Wagon script on the flank.
What are you getting at? The last year for the extended-wheelbase Sportwagon with raised rear roof was 1969. After that, the Sportwagon was just the wagon version of the Skylark.
Is it possible there was a different base engine on the Sport Wagons in California in 1970 or 1971?
No. They didn’t do different CA engines until some years later. Something is wrong with her memory or her car, but there were no six cylinder Buick wagons at that time. Period. I need to move to other things.
Later when some CA engines were different, it was invariably the opposite: a larger engine was substituted for a smaller engine in California. There was absolutely zero reason to do that in 1971 or 1970.
Here in the great white north, 6 cylinder full size cars were very common at the time, ’65-’67 Chevys and Pontiacs in particular. I had a 230/ 3 speed equipped ’65 Laurentian for a winter car and a buddy had a ’67 Bel Air with the 250/Pg combo (power steering too!)The Bel Air was nicer around town, but on BC’s mountainous highways we always took my ’65.
The Pg really didn’t work well with a series of inclines/declines/corners and that’s our topography. It used more fuel than his ’66 396 Super Sport, hard as that is to believe.
As another comment said, where you lived had a lot to do with how you chose. Full size Fords with 6 cylinders seemed to be a lot less common, at least in our area. Lots of 289 automatics around though. These were all 300 dollar beaters by then, but they were reliable, easy to maintain and repair and had good heaters.
In those days the speed limit was lower and traffic volume way less so being a slow poke wasn’t the hazard it would be today. Everything about these cars was slow, but that’s what made them such great winter cars!
P.S. Looks like it must have been a 1970 or 1971, as there is no 1972 Buick Sport Wagon listed on Wikipedia…
One more picture
That’s a ’70 model, Matt.
Thanks!
Twenty-four pounds’ tire pressure‽
That was the default norm for bias ply tires. When I was a gas station jockey, we checked tires regularly when customers filled up, and we automatically put in 24 lbs unless the customer told us otherwise. Which only happened very rarely, as in a driver of a Renault with Michelin Xs or such.
And that included Corvairs, which were supposed to have a big differential in F/R pressures (16/26). Was I responsible for someone flipping their Corvair? Actually, it’s possible by that time that I knew about the Corvair’s differential tire pressures. I can’t be sure.
Some factory recommended bias ply pressures were as low as 22; other 26. But never more; maybe 28 in the rears of a very heavily-loaded wagon.
If you put any more in a bias ply tire, the tire tread will be bulged, and it will ride only on the crowned middle section, reducing grip and drastically increasing wear. It’s utterly counter-productive.
Radials are a whole different thing…
That all stands to reason, thanks.
A bias ply tire is kinda’ like a balloon, in cross section. The the tread section being thicker rubber is the only thing that keeps it from ballooning even more. A radial has very flexible sides and a very stiff tread.
I don’t think any of that is so. A power steering pump takes significant power to turn only when it’s actually doing work, and there’s not a whole lot of work for it to do except during parking and 3- (or 17-) point turns and other such low-speed manœuvres. When the steering wheel isn’t being cranked, the control valve on the steering gear just routes steering fluid back to the pump in a loop with minimal restriction, therefore minimal torque load on the pump.
And a secondary air injection pump takes very little power to run; certainly nowhere near a whole mile-per-gallon’s worth. Other changes made to conform to the new-for-’66 California exhaust emission standards—ignition timing and carburetor calibration—are probably the primary culprits on top of the underpowered nature of the car.
Given its actual performance, I’d agree, except to add that its performance was actually quite decent, given the power-to-weight ratio.
Agreed on the ’65. The issue is the two year (70-71) sport wagon, which was no longer long wheelbase, but instead a trim package. Buick had sold the v-6 tooling by then, leaving the Chevy six as a base engine in Skylarks…
A note on my mom’s car observations: For years she said her 1979 Mercedes wagon was quicker than her 1981. I thought it couldn’t be true because the 1981 had more horsepower and more torque from the turbo. Years later I discovered that the 1979 had a higher numerical axle ratio, and a first gear start, so her observation stands.
Her observation in this case was that the Buick could “barely get up the hill” out of the Arroyo in Pasadena CA (from California Terrace up to Orange Grove…
Please read my other comments left higher up. My Standard Encyclopedia of American Cars says the 250 six was std. on the Skylark, but the 350 V8 in the wagons.
Buick was a premium brand, and did not want to saddle wagon buyers with an under-powered wagon.
It appears there was something seriously wrong with her Buick wagon, or she’s mixing cars up, or? FWIW, a friend had access to his parent’s ’70 Skylark with the 350V8 and THM. That was a very nicely powered car.
Paul is correct, there 350-2bbl was standard on the wagons from 1970-72. By 1972 the 350 was the base engine across the board. We had a ’72 Skylark sedan with a 350, and it was a troquey little engine that pulled well. Not fast, but certainly not an engine anyone would describe as underpowered.
That could solve the mystery, maybe the Buick had a tall, cruising/economy axle ratio?
It wouldn’t have made a significant difference.
For years she said her 1979 Mercedes wagon was quicker than her 1981. I thought it couldn’t be true because the 1981 had more horsepower and more torque from the turbo. Years later I discovered that the 1979 had a higher numerical axle ratio, and a first gear start, so her observation stands.
All W123 diesels start in first gear; turbo or not.
Actually Paul ;
They don’t start from first gear after a dead stop until mid way through the 1981 model year .
The 1979’s weren’t terribly slow, the turbo car mentioned was prolly way out ot tune or had a blocked ALDA sensor pipe, or EGR valve coked up partially open….
Lots of reasons why a later model one could be slower .
-Nate
Actually Nate:
All w123 diesels start in first gear. Well, to be more precise, they “sit” at a stop in second gear (for less creep), but the instant the throttle is moved, they shift into first.
Why? Because diesels inherently have less torques than gas engines, so MB set up the diesel automatics to start in first, whereas the gas engines will start in second, but will shift into first on a take-off with a full 9or near full) throttle.
If your diesel automatic really starts in second, then the switch to kick it into first is not working.
I remember riding in these Chevys when they were new or nearly so, they had no problems keeping up with the other traffic around New England .
Today’s roads are designed for higher speeds but at the time these were just fine .
-Nate
My first car as a new driver in 1983. Beige 66 Bel Air 4 door sedan. 250 with the glide and p.s. Only difference from the featured car is that mine had the dog dish wheelcovers and no air pump. It was a good first car and great for trips to the beach with a pile of friends.
My uncle always bought, for my aunt, big Chevies with the six cylinder. He factory ordered a new Impala sedan in 1966 – six with standard three-speed manual, dog dish caps, and blackwalls – no PS or PB! The engine was smooth, quiet, and had slightly better power than their 63 Bel Air. I had a new license and drove it to the car wash a few times. I suspect a lot of these big cars with sixes were bought by thrifty Midwesterners as I sure saw lots of them in Indiana when I was growing up. Many of our neighbors and school teachers drove Biscaynes and Bel Airs with the six and Powerglide. That began to change in the mid-60s when folks had more money and started loading their cars with more options.
It would have been interesting to see how the 1966 Chevrolet Bel Air 6 would have done against a 1966 Plymouth Fury II with the slant-six and Torqueflite.
Btw, how’s the Bel Air smaller sibling, the mid-size Chevelle fared with the inline 6?
I had a 1964 Malibu four door sedan with the 230CID i6 and powerglide, it was nice, not speedy but had zero troubles getting up to 65 MPH and got incredible fuel economy doing so .
Malibu / Chevelles were lighter than the sedans .
I had no idea the ’66 full sizer weighed so much .
My very first Chevy II Nova had the wretched 194CID i6 and powerglide, it was slow like a MoPed .
-Nate
Car Life tested a ’64 Chevelle Malibu with the 155 hp six and Powerglide (3.08 axle) and got the following results:
0-30: 4.7 sec
0-40: 6.8 sec
0-50: 9.6 sec
0-60: 13.4 sec
0-70: 18.8 sec
Quarter mile: 19.6 sec @ 72 mph
Autocar tested a ’65 with the 140 hp six that had been converted to RHD and got:
0-30: 5.2 sec
0-40: 7.8 sec
0-50: 10.6 sec
0-60: 15.1 sec
0-70: 22.6 sec
Quarter mile: 20.3
Thanks for posting this review; I hadn’t seen this one before. The way they describe the six-cylinder PG Chevy isn’t far off my dad’s description. He had a ’65 Impala 2-door with the 230 six and a Powerglide that he owned from 1966-1973. Dad loved that car for its styling, but complained how painfully slow it was This was especially true on the highway when he was at speeds that wouldn’t allow for a kickdown to first to pass someone on the mostly 2-lane highways that were around at that time. Interestingly, he said his was not a particularly good handler, despite it’s good balance. He said he wished that car had a 283 and by the looks of it, he’s right that it would have offered a big boost in performance. He also said while it was a better car overall than his troublesome 1960 Dodge Dart 225 six 3-speed, the Dodge was noticeably peppier. The same goes for his ’55 Bel Air with the 235/PG combo. Dad also later owned a ’67 Chevy II with a 250 PG and he said it was quite peppy. He figured comparable to an Impala with a 283.
A couple of points. The 6 cylinder Ford tested would have used a C4 transmission based on the ratios provided. The Ford C4 had low rotational losses, but still somewhat higher than a PG. That said, even if the Ford had the C6, I doubt it would have made much difference. Drag racers who swap from C6s to C4 only see may a few tenths at most in 1/4 times, and that is in very high hp cars running higher RPM and much quicker times. Slow low powered cars would have negligible differences. FWIW, these are the numbers that are often quoted from transmission power losses:
Powerglide 18 hp
TH350 36 hp
TH400 44 hp
Ford C6 55-60 hp
Ford C4 28 hp
Chrysler A904 25 hp
Chrysler 727 45 hp
They come form an old Car Craft article from the 90s. There was never any methodology on the testing or detailed explanations. I question if the losses quoted apply to all engines in all circumstances. The Ford C6 was used behind Ford 300 six in pickups and they could not afford to lose 55-60 hp. If that were the case, an automatic truck would be far slower than a manual transmission truck, but that is not the reality.
I always though the Car Life tests were the best of the era, but I never cared for their 30-70 mph passing spec. It wasn’t very realistic and in this case likely gives the PG Chevy a leg up. At 30 MPH it would kick down to 1st right and would allow it to wind out the engine for quite a while before it upshifts. If they did a 50-70 mph test, I bet the Ford would have done much better in comparison to the Chevy due to the intermediate gear. Like I mentioned above, my Dad own a ’65 Impala and he complained in the real world the car rarely would kickdown to first to pass on the highway, or if it did it was so brief that it offered no real help.
This brings me back to my college days when a roommate had a 62 Bel Air 6/PG. I never considered it any worse for power than most other large cars with a 6 and an automatic. In fact, the powertrain was the least irritating thing about the car – it was far outweighed by the slow steering, the bad handling and the awful seating position.
I would also not rule out sample differences – we have all seen tests where cars do better or worse than everyone expects, whether due to one being professionally tuned and another coming straight from a sales lot. And also, Ford’s performance in most of its workaday powertrains was always a little less than it should have been, so it does not surprise me that the 6/auto falls into this category.
…sample differences, I had a 68 Biscayne with a 250 and power glide combo. It was anvil reliable but it would cough and stall on anything but hi test gas. It also coughed and puked if an air filter was installed. I sold it with 150,000 miles on it which was a pretty huge big deal back then and it still ran pretty good so the lack of an air filter didn’t seem to affect it much.
Car Life tested a ’63 Bel Air with the 230 (which had just been introduced) and Powerglide, which was notably slower than this car. It needed 17.0 seconds to reach 60 mph and did the quarter in 21.0 seconds at 65 mph, which I would call perceptibly slower — more so than I would expect from the difference in rated output.
(According to the official specs, the difference in net output amounted to all of 5 hp and 15 lb-ft of torque.)
I discovered one other possible reason for the Ford’s lackluster performance – I found one source that says Ford put the old MX transmission behind the 6 cylinder Galaxies. The C6 was brand new in 1966 but the old FX and MX transmissions were still being used in addition to the C4 and C6 until they were reconfigured into the FMX in 1968. The FX and MX were old designs with poor efficiency.
That might also explain the most surprising result on the chart of other cars: the 1964 Ford Custom with the 289/automatic. It was just barely faster than the Chevy PG six (15.2 vs 15.5 0-60), and three seconds slower than the 283/PG ’65 Chevy.
The ’64 definitely had the older automatic — the editors called it out in the text.
In principle, the stated ratios of the Custom 500 six would indicate the C4 or C6 (a Simpson gearset with the same number of teeth for all planet gears will always have a second gear equal to exactly 1.00 plus the first gear ratio, so 2.46/1.46 or 2.48/1.48), although that would assume that the spec sheet is accurate and that the press kit from which the specs were taken was correct, which isn’t always the case.
The 240 six was never offered with the C6 in a fullsize Ford. I am not sure what year the tested car was, but assuming it was also a 1966 only the C4 and MX were offered behind the 240 six. For 1965-72 the only transmissions offered with the 240 were the C4, MX and later the FMX. Most often it was the C4. As I said above, based on the ratios provided in the article it would have to be the C4, unless the article provided incorrect data.
If the 1964 Ford 289 road test shows the gear ratios, you’d be able to identify it as the C4 or MX. The C4 had 2.46:1, 1.46:1 and 1:1. The MX was 2.4:1, 1.47:1 and 1:1.
VinceC: The 1964 road test Paul is referencing specifies clearly in the text that the test car uses the “Cruise-O-Matic manufactured by Borg-Warner for a number of different automobile builders, then presented by them under a variety of names,” and the spec panel lists the ratios as 2.40/1.47/1.00. So, it’s unambiguously the Ravigneaux gearset MX.
Ate Up With Motor,
Thank you. It was undoubtedly the MX based on the extra information you provided.
I thought C6’s were only used behind big blocks, but that might be more what I thought rather than reality.
Powerglides. As someone who nearly starts frothing at the mouth speaking of GM products, and admittedly I think I’ve only driven them behind 327s, they didn’t seem bad at all for an auto, let alone a 2 speed auto. Now my perception was always that the 327s had enough torque to compensate, but whatever, they drove OK. As opposed to the ’63 Ford Galaxie I learned to drive in, with a Ford O Matic 2 speed and a 289 where I felt I could push it off the line faster. Talk about a dog. I also, somewhat later had a ’61 Ford with a 292 and the Dog O Matic 2 speed and IIRC it felt slow, but not as slow as the 289. My suspicion was even with less rated HP and I think torque, the longer stroke more than compensated for less rated power.
Not sure I believe it, but interesting stat on transmission power losses. I wonder what todays A/Ts are since they often do OK behind modest sized engines.
To middle age and up buyers back in 1966, The Great Depression and WWII were vivid memories. And any automatic transmission was a modern convenience, 2 or 3 speeds, as long as it was reliable.
3 on the tree is no fun in a large vehicle, i drove ’67 Chevy pickup with I6/3, was work, not playtime, but hauled many college era moves
This was a very interesting read for me, because I learned to drive in a ’67 Chevy Bel Air with the 250 six, but with 3-on-the-tree. Even after I had driven other more powerful cars with V8s, our Chevy always seemed adequate in terms of acceleration.
Just as Stephen Pellegrino mentions with his ’59, what was tedious was all the steering wheel winding without power assist.
Actually Paul ;
You’re wrong and don’t care to learn, that’s fine .
-Nate
Nate: I do care to learn, which is why I spent 30+ minutes Goggling this issue before i responded to you. I was already 99.9% certain before I did that, but after consulting with several MBZ forums where this issue was discussed multiple times, including scans of factory documents, I’m now 100% certain. But if you’d like to convince me otherwise with reputable citations, documents or such, I would, as always, be very happy to change my mind and learn something new.
Please keep in mind that you and I have had several similar issues where I had to prove to you that your memory of certain facts was not congruent with reliable sources.
As I said before, if yours started in 2nd gear, there are several explanations. It’s not uncommon for them to do that, but it is not how they are supposed to work, or how they came from the factory.
Fine ;
I understand but the main thing is : that’s how they cane prior to the 1981 mid year .
If you were a mechanic or if you’d ever driven one you’d know .
I too have all those factory manuals and yes, the early versions clearly say “rests in secnd gear” .
If you ever get the chance to drive an early one you’ll notice it starts off in second gear and doesn’t shift three times .
If your mind os closed that’s that .
Me, I like to learn and I did so .
I have no problems accepting when I’m wrong, God knows it happens a lot but not this time .
This would be analogous to me insisting what permissible roof angles of footing depths are ~ I don’t know those things and would pay attention if you stated them because that’s what you do : house repairs and building .
-Nate
Sorry; but that applies to pre-1981 cars too.
The attached image is a snip from a R&T Road Test of a 1977 300 turbo diesel. It clearly spell out that unlike the gas versions, this transmission starts in 1st gear, shifting into that from 2nd as soon as the accelerator is touched.
Laughing at you Paul ! .
Try reading the clip you posted, it clearly says “other Mercedes start in second gear”
As I said : you are afraid to admit being wrong .
You’re talking out your behind here and I think you’re aware of that .
-Nate
“Others” means gas Mercedes. This is a 300 TD, which is what Matt Spencer’s mom had.
Keep laughing, but better yet go find me something to prove me wrong. Insulting me won’t do. And it’s a violation of our commenting policies.
Got it Paul ~
Only _you_ are allowed to make comments when someone is wrong and refuses to admit it .
It’s easy : just go DRIVE ONE like I did for years .
The single most common complaint when a Customer buys a new Mercedes Diesel is : I thought it had a four speed box, I only feel three speeds .
The early models started off in second gear -unless- you either pulled the shift lever all the way back before leaving it in ‘D’ or if you flat footed the accelerator depressing the kick down switch .
It’s easy, I don’t have to convince you when you clearly don’t care .
-Nate
I’m going to repeat myself one more time: I’m perfectly happy to change my mind in the face of concrete evidence. I’ve done that here many times. I’m still waiting for that evidence, though. And I have shown you concrete evidence that a ’77 300 turbo diesel very much does start in first.
For what it may be worth, looking at the time from 70 to 80 MPH the Chevrolet is about 9 seconds while the Ford is almost 12 seconds. This suggests that the Chevrolet is getting more power to the wheels in high gear. The 0-60 and 1/4 mile performance is muddied by the transmissions or, to put it another way, the Ford is helped out by the three speed transmission.
Just spotted this most interesting article/thread and, being the owner of a 1964 Chevrolet Bel Air 4-door with a 230 CID Six and Powerglide, I can’t resist adding a few remarks of my own.
My Bel Air, purchased two years ago in the Netherlands, is an export model that was assembled at GM’s now-defunct Continental plant in Antwerp, Belgium – as was the 1966 Chevrolet Chevelle 300 Deluxe 4-door that I owned in the 1980s and that also featured the 230/Powerglide combo.
Due to high fuel prices and car taxes in Europe, American cars destined for the continent often came with “economy” Sixes, probably more often than not.
My Chevelle, now just a fond memory, served me very well 40 years ago when I was a student at Cologne University. I never found the 230 insufficient in the power department, as the Chevelle would do 0-100 km/h (62mph) in about 15 seconds. I also drove it up to an indicated 150 km/h, probably an actual 90 mph (145 km/h). The Powerglide was, for lack of a better word, bulletproof. Body integrity could have been better, but was manageable.
Obviously, the same engine and transmission combination make the larger and heavier Bel Air slower than the Chevelle. I haven’t tried it out yet because the car is still in rehab, but the “Car Life” performance data for the ’63 Bel Air mentioned above sound reasonable even though I believe the Chevy should be able to do a little more than 85 mph given enough time and space.
At the end of the day, performance doesn’t really matter to me. I’m quite happy owning probably the only ’64 Bel Air four-door with a Six in all of Germany, a standout from the usual Impala/SS hardtop coupes and convertibles, with V8s, of course. Not that there are many of those around over here to begin with, but their relative scarcity makes my Bel Air even more of a rare bird.
When I bought the car, it came with wheel covers from a ’73 Chevelle, so I had the wheels repainted in the blue body color and bought some genuine ’64 dog dish hubcaps for the proper “stripper” look. Is that crazy or what?
One of the Chevy’s previous owners had replaced the OEM Rochester 1-barrel carb with a Holley 4160 and an intake manifold to match. The Holley was a leaker so I threw it out and installed a remanufactured Rochester. Thankfully, the owner had left the original intake manifold in the trunk.
Anyway, given my strange lifelong affection for full-size American cars with Sixes, I’m an avid collector of vintage reviews of just such cars (and others, of course). The ’66 Chevy and Ford reviews are among my prize possessions, just like the ’63 Bel Air road test.
For those of you who care, I have before me the April 1960 issue of “Motor Life” which features “Test Reports On All Sixes – Ford, Rambler, Chevrolet, Dart, Plymouth, Corvair, Falcon, Lark, American, Valiant and Mercury’s Comet”. A most enlightening read, indeed, albeit a little short of performance data. Here’s what the testers came up with for the full-sizers:
0-60:
– Chevrolet Biscayne 4D, 235/PG, 3.36 axle: 16.3 s
– Dodge Dart 2D, 225/TF, 3.54 axle: 14.4 s
– Ford Fairlane 2D, 223/3spMT, 3.56 axle: 16.5 s
– Plymouth Savoy 4D, 225/TF, 3.90 axle: 14.7 s
Also of interest (not just to me, I hope) is the September 1961 “Car Life” road test of a 1961 Plymouth Savoy 4D with the Slant Six and Torqueflite:
0-60: 15.3 s
0-80: 33.0 s
1/4-mile: 20.0 s/66.6 mph
Top speed: 93.5 mph
In summation, the editors say: “The Plymouth Savoy Six, then, is an adequate car – in handling, performance and appearance – but outstanding in cheap, comfortable transportation.”
If my Bel Air turns out like that (and turns a few heads), I’ll be perfectly satisfied.
I’m including a not-very-recent picture of my Chevy’s engine bay and its inhabitant just for the fun of it. I don’t have any better photos just yet. My apologies.
Thanks for sharing. Yes, sixes were very common on export cars to Europe then, both because of the taxes and fuel costs as well as because performance expectations were lower there. These performance stats would have been considered quite decent in Europe at the time.
Paul,
I don’t want to impose on you but if you or someone else from the CC community is interested in the road tests I mentioned, I’ll be glad to make them available as PDFs or scans (JPEGs). For free, of course.
There’s plenty more where they come from, by the way. Being a semi-retired automotive writer myself, I’ve always taken a keen interest in the works of colleagues past and present. My collection, accumulated over a period of 30+ years, has become quite substantial.
Mike
Okay ;
I’m trying to scan the pertinent page of the 1979 Mercedes’ 300TD owner’s manual P.45
It says ” “D”
Drive all gears are available, 1st gear can only be engaged by means of kickdown .
Position “D” affords optimum driving characteristics under all normal operating condition .”
My scanner says it sent the scan to my computer but I don’t see it, I don’t know computers well enough to find it .
Now let’s see what you say / do .
-Nate
FWIW ;
The Diesel engines don’t make any intake manifold vacuum so they all have a vacuum pump and a vacuum control valve that’s controlled by the foot throttle, this sends a falling signal to the modulator .
Kick down is via an electric solenoid and switch on the toe board under the accelerator pedal .
-Nate